U.S. spied on millions of e-mails and calls of Brazilians(translate.google.com)
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U.S. spied on millions of e-mails and calls of Brazilians
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://oglobo.globo.com/mundo/eua-espionaram-milhoes-de-mails-ligacoes-de-brasileiros-8940934
9 comments
America respects international law on not torturing to some debatable degree
First, by "America" you mean "The USA". I don't want to be nitpicking, but since the article is about another country of the Americas I'd clarify that.
Second, the US do not torture people but on their own soil, but practice it through third parties. Finally, the US do not recognize the International Criminal Court.
First, by "America" you mean "The USA". I don't want to be nitpicking, but since the article is about another country of the Americas I'd clarify that.
Second, the US do not torture people but on their own soil, but practice it through third parties. Finally, the US do not recognize the International Criminal Court.
> America respects international law on not torturing to some debatable degree
Yes, they respect it by calling it "advanced interrogation techniques" or something like that. So they aren't doing "torture", therefore it's legal, just like "don't call it bribe, call it "campaign donations", so then it's legal, too.
A lot of stuff is handled this way in US, especially after 9/11. A lot of 1984 newspeak.
Yes, they respect it by calling it "advanced interrogation techniques" or something like that. So they aren't doing "torture", therefore it's legal, just like "don't call it bribe, call it "campaign donations", so then it's legal, too.
A lot of stuff is handled this way in US, especially after 9/11. A lot of 1984 newspeak.
It used to be understood that in principle intelligence agencies would generally respect the law of friendly nations, and quietly and discretely brake the law in case national security was at stake.
It is and always will be a gray area.
But wherever that grey area ends, the mass violations of the civil rights of millions of citizens of friendly nations is so far in the black I'm constantly surprised people even bring up the question.
This isn't even about where the unwritten boundaries of intelligence gathering are. Those have been well and truly crossed when you start violating the civil rights of millions of innocents.
The grey area the NSA has crossed into is the one marked "hostile acts of aggression".
It is and always will be a gray area.
But wherever that grey area ends, the mass violations of the civil rights of millions of citizens of friendly nations is so far in the black I'm constantly surprised people even bring up the question.
This isn't even about where the unwritten boundaries of intelligence gathering are. Those have been well and truly crossed when you start violating the civil rights of millions of innocents.
The grey area the NSA has crossed into is the one marked "hostile acts of aggression".
Article also states that the Brazilians are the most monitored nation in Latin America. Given that other countries in Latin America has showed far less "cooperative" with the US in the past, this took me by surprise. Maybe it's also oil related since the discovery of a humongous pre-salt layer[1] might be of interest to US?
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-salt_layer
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-salt_layer
Petrobrás was a pioneer in deep sea oil extraction and obtaining whatever technologies they developed for that is a vital interest for oil dependent countries. Much like Canada spied on Embraer to further Bombardier's interests, I wouldn't be surprised to see the US doing the same. I would be surprised if they didn't.
What astonishes me is not that it's happening, but the sheer scale of the thing. I would find odd my mail being of interest, but why in hell would anyone be interested on what my mom exchanges with her friends?
What astonishes me is not that it's happening, but the sheer scale of the thing. I would find odd my mail being of interest, but why in hell would anyone be interested on what my mom exchanges with her friends?
why in hell would anyone be interested on what my mom exchanges with her friends?
To ensure complete information collection, it would not be smart of any spying agency to only target "suspicious" email accounts, when a suspect could use their own mother's email to communicate to other suspects' mother's email.
Much like airport security does random searches instead of targeted searches (to only people with Middle Eastern features, for instance), randomizing probably helps. It helps even more to gather information from ALL email accounts.
To ensure complete information collection, it would not be smart of any spying agency to only target "suspicious" email accounts, when a suspect could use their own mother's email to communicate to other suspects' mother's email.
Much like airport security does random searches instead of targeted searches (to only people with Middle Eastern features, for instance), randomizing probably helps. It helps even more to gather information from ALL email accounts.
Makes sense. Now I would understand why they intercept my mom's mail, but, then, why every friend of hers? I'm, sure there are people more than one degree away from anyone of interest.
"It is hard to fight an enemy who has outposts in your head." - S. K.
This could be exactly what Brazilian politicians need.
Right now Brazil is deeply divided, the people feel very let down and undervalued, there are mass protests and demonstrations of the streets. A sort of South American spring as it were. Now, the politicians may be able to divert attention on to a common enemy.
Of course, diverting attention to what could be seen as international concerns, might just annoy the population more.
Dunno, but I do see potential political use for this latest information.
Right now Brazil is deeply divided, the people feel very let down and undervalued, there are mass protests and demonstrations of the streets. A sort of South American spring as it were. Now, the politicians may be able to divert attention on to a common enemy.
Of course, diverting attention to what could be seen as international concerns, might just annoy the population more.
Dunno, but I do see potential political use for this latest information.
Is this a new leak? Or have the Brazilian docs been surfaced before? How many countries do we have to make enemies of before we can start talking impeachment?
It's a new leak, but it's not in any way surprising, the NSA is not subject to impeachment, and neither is the ex-president who authorized the apparent dramatic expansion of their spying.
Plus we just beat their MMA champion. Tough day for Brasil.
I'm glad this is coming out about Brazilians. Because of all the Latin American countries who supported the Bolivian president, Brazil seemed awfully quiet. Maybe this will stir something up over there.
(didnt read the article, and knee-jerk response):
Via Orkut???
Via Orkut???
Isn't this what the NSA was started for anyway?
What is the surprise here? "Agency created to spy on foreign powers is spying on foreign powers"... really?
What is the surprise here? "Agency created to spy on foreign powers is spying on foreign powers"... really?
There's a difference between spying on foreign powers and spying on all of the citizens in the world. There is also a difference between spying and mass surveillance.
If the Americans were spying on foreign powers, or even my country's politicians I really would not be surprised.
For some reason they appear to be spying on me, specifically.
I do find that surprising, yes. Shocking, even.
Scary, certainly. What will they do if I say something they don't like? How will I know? Who is deciding whether what I am saying is acceptable?
Because I am against this spying, have the Americans started monitoring me more carefully? Will they contact my government for more information?
My job is contractor to a local business that receives a lot of business from my government. Could that be affected by my private communications? One of my friends is a bit of an anti US nut. Will my communications with him put me at greater risk?
For some reason they appear to be spying on me, specifically.
I do find that surprising, yes. Shocking, even.
Scary, certainly. What will they do if I say something they don't like? How will I know? Who is deciding whether what I am saying is acceptable?
Because I am against this spying, have the Americans started monitoring me more carefully? Will they contact my government for more information?
My job is contractor to a local business that receives a lot of business from my government. Could that be affected by my private communications? One of my friends is a bit of an anti US nut. Will my communications with him put me at greater risk?
> What will they do if I say something they don't like? How will I know?
By denying entry to you on your next vacation or business trip to the United States.
By denying entry to you on your next vacation or business trip to the United States.
This is one of the reactions that always comes out on this kind of story. Yes, the department of killer zombies is just doing its job, eating peoples' brains. But I'm starting to think maybe we shouldn't have a department of killer zombies.
I am not sure if an average Brazilian thinks of themselves as a "foreign power".
Would you be happy to have the government of a random country, say Russia, Brazil, Albania or whereever, reading your emails?
Would you be happy to have the government of a random country, say Russia, Brazil, Albania or whereever, reading your emails?
Well, the Federative Republic of Brazil is a democratic republic, with elections for their president every four years, so that does imply the average Brazilian has a little bit of power that is foreign from the US perspective. (If you buy this whole democracy thing, you might think that's good!)
I wonder if a restoration to monarchies would encourage agencies of the crown to keep their spying to other royal and powerful persons, since then the average subject would indeed have no power.
I wonder if a restoration to monarchies would encourage agencies of the crown to keep their spying to other royal and powerful persons, since then the average subject would indeed have no power.
Exactly!
Holy fark! its simply mind boggling that anyone can be ok with the level of spying we are seeing.
The thing is that they are simply too farking comfortable to see how bad this is.
I farking HATE the fact that there is an easy statement of " 'well, American Idol is on..' " -- and to see that it is true.
The war is on the minds of Man. There is and has been a centuries long war on your ability to discern.
Holy fark! its simply mind boggling that anyone can be ok with the level of spying we are seeing.
The thing is that they are simply too farking comfortable to see how bad this is.
I farking HATE the fact that there is an easy statement of " 'well, American Idol is on..' " -- and to see that it is true.
The war is on the minds of Man. There is and has been a centuries long war on your ability to discern.
[deleted]
Isn't this what the NPTA was started for anyway?
What is the surprise here? "Agency created to torture puppies is torturing puppies"... really?
What is the surprise here? "Agency created to torture puppies is torturing puppies"... really?
I think the argument here is the general polulations data is subject to being recorded and analyzed.
It's interesting to see him strategically releasing these stories to maximize impact of the information. While I'm sure Latin American leaders knew of or at least suspected NSA spying, seeing confirmation in such a revealing way must certainly strengthen their resolve to stand up to the US "treating them as colonies," which can only be good news for Snowden.
It's also interesting to think about the stated mission of the NSA, which is to collect foreign intelligence. Is that a black and white statement? Are there boundaries and human rights to be respected? America respects international law on not torturing to some debatable degree, perhaps a "spying" agreement is needed to define the acceptable limits on collecting foreign intelligence, which I don't believe yet exists.