German railways to test anti-graffiti drones(bbc.co.uk)
bbc.co.uk
German railways to test anti-graffiti drones
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22678580
48 comments
> On the other hand, more effective enforcement is probably mostly going to result in a larger ratio of quick-n-dirty tags, making the overall appearance messier, uglier and more vandalised.
bingo. back in the day in Poland, the Tricity railway picked up a fight against graffiti, they cleaned stuff up quickly, when they couldn't afford to clean they just painted over (kind of vandalised the graffiti, lol), the security got really brutal on writers, and stuff got ugly to a point where people got hurt. as a result, a lot of writers around there pivoted from only painting to some really crazy vandalism action. that attracts more people that less identify themselves as independent artists and more as vandals opposed to the opressive system, and as you can imagine those are harder to work with. fighting youth movements with surveillance and force always gets ugly.
bingo. back in the day in Poland, the Tricity railway picked up a fight against graffiti, they cleaned stuff up quickly, when they couldn't afford to clean they just painted over (kind of vandalised the graffiti, lol), the security got really brutal on writers, and stuff got ugly to a point where people got hurt. as a result, a lot of writers around there pivoted from only painting to some really crazy vandalism action. that attracts more people that less identify themselves as independent artists and more as vandals opposed to the opressive system, and as you can imagine those are harder to work with. fighting youth movements with surveillance and force always gets ugly.
There is also a form of respect among writers, usually nices pieces don't get vandalised/overwritten. Hire or just ask actually good writers to make your trains less horrible looking and both parties would be happy. A lot of cities do that nowadays (for walls), at least where I live, and this has been quite a success.
I am not saying this will prevent the die hards who like the thrill of going into depots at 3am for a 15min job that most of the time ends up very poorly, but this would probably be more effective and cost way less than drones!
I am not saying this will prevent the die hards who like the thrill of going into depots at 3am for a 15min job that most of the time ends up very poorly, but this would probably be more effective and cost way less than drones!
>But I also understand that for the Deutsche Bahn this means substantial damage and costs.
In what sense?
If the don't want repaint damages, then don't fucking repaint them.
People like them fine as they are. Young people at least. As for the older people, they will give their place to younger people sooner or later.
In what sense?
If the don't want repaint damages, then don't fucking repaint them.
People like them fine as they are. Young people at least. As for the older people, they will give their place to younger people sooner or later.
>People like them fine as they are. Young people at least. As for the older people, they will give their place to younger people sooner or later.
I doubt that. At least I am a young German and I prefer my trains to be clean. And I'm absolutely certain most young people here think the same way.
There is graffiti that I enjoy, but the majority of it doesn't exactly improve the looks of things.
Also, there is a slight problem with people feeling insecure when using public transportation due to repeated incidents where people were beaten up or stabbed in trains. Having graffiti all over the place makes especially older people less likely to use public transportation and therefore reduces the income.
I doubt that. At least I am a young German and I prefer my trains to be clean. And I'm absolutely certain most young people here think the same way.
There is graffiti that I enjoy, but the majority of it doesn't exactly improve the looks of things.
Also, there is a slight problem with people feeling insecure when using public transportation due to repeated incidents where people were beaten up or stabbed in trains. Having graffiti all over the place makes especially older people less likely to use public transportation and therefore reduces the income.
>I doubt that. At least I am a young German and I prefer my trains to be clean. And I'm absolutely certain most young people here think the same way.
Were? In squareville? Because the young Germans I've talked to in Mitte sure didn't think that way.
>Also, there is a slight problem with people feeling insecure when using public transportation due to repeated incidents where people were beaten up or stabbed in trains.
That's orthogonal.
>Having graffiti all over the place makes especially older people less likely to use public transportation and therefore reduces the income.
Huh? How is that conclusion reached? I hope not with the "broken window" theory -- there are graffiti in affluent and well maintained city districts too.
Were? In squareville? Because the young Germans I've talked to in Mitte sure didn't think that way.
>Also, there is a slight problem with people feeling insecure when using public transportation due to repeated incidents where people were beaten up or stabbed in trains.
That's orthogonal.
>Having graffiti all over the place makes especially older people less likely to use public transportation and therefore reduces the income.
Huh? How is that conclusion reached? I hope not with the "broken window" theory -- there are graffiti in affluent and well maintained city districts too.
squareville? Let's not act like we are five years old and calling each other names. That makes for a terrible environment.
Remember that your opinion isn't The One and that everybody has different likes. I agree that graffiti on trains normally looks terrible, but in other places graffiti can be very interesting.
Remember that your opinion isn't The One and that everybody has different likes. I agree that graffiti on trains normally looks terrible, but in other places graffiti can be very interesting.
This undertaking is absolutely ridiculous.
First, Deutsche Bahn simply could hire a security agency for a fraction of the money.
Second, they're trying to solve a non-problem. Their trains are notoriously and regularly late. Their fares are horribly complex and overpriced. They only offer Internet access on two of their high speed routes through Germany. You want Internet access while travelling to Germany's main startup hub Berlin? Well, bad luck for you. No such service. Their trains fail regulary during spring because of the rain, they fail during summer because the trains' air conditioning can't handle more than 35 degrees centigrade, they fail during autumn because their trains' wheels can't deal with wet leaves on the tracks and they fail during winter because of a few snowflakes.
I couldn't care less what their trains look like from the outside if they didn't smell like piss and sweat on the inside. Maybe, they should fix that issue first before buying some expensive toy with their shareholders' money, which happens to be taxpayers' money since Deutsche Bahn is still more or less owned by the German state.
First, Deutsche Bahn simply could hire a security agency for a fraction of the money.
Second, they're trying to solve a non-problem. Their trains are notoriously and regularly late. Their fares are horribly complex and overpriced. They only offer Internet access on two of their high speed routes through Germany. You want Internet access while travelling to Germany's main startup hub Berlin? Well, bad luck for you. No such service. Their trains fail regulary during spring because of the rain, they fail during summer because the trains' air conditioning can't handle more than 35 degrees centigrade, they fail during autumn because their trains' wheels can't deal with wet leaves on the tracks and they fail during winter because of a few snowflakes.
I couldn't care less what their trains look like from the outside if they didn't smell like piss and sweat on the inside. Maybe, they should fix that issue first before buying some expensive toy with their shareholders' money, which happens to be taxpayers' money since Deutsche Bahn is still more or less owned by the German state.
As someone who has lived in Germany for many years and experienced the pros and cons of Deutsche Bahn and now lives in the UK, all I can say is you have no idea how good things are in Germany.
I have lived in the UK for some time, too. I can only tell about the Tube and regional train services in South-East England and those were quite alright back then (roughly 10 years ago), though not exactly better than German regional train services either.
While I feel your pain, your complaints make the Bahn sound much worse than it is to the non-calibrated outsider. We're complaining at a very high level.
> Graffiti is reported to cost Deutsche Bahn about 7.6m euros (£6.5m; $10m) a year.
or leave it alone and it will cost you close to zero and still look better. wholecars ara PITA for travellers so windows need to get cleaned, but I thought that vandal squad hysteria after the 90s graffiti boom has ended. I guess somebody needs to pump up their budget requirements.
or leave it alone and it will cost you close to zero and still look better. wholecars ara PITA for travellers so windows need to get cleaned, but I thought that vandal squad hysteria after the 90s graffiti boom has ended. I guess somebody needs to pump up their budget requirements.
This might change your mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gLrwaXfeLg.
While the problem is definitely less nowadays, the difficult to reach places where graffiti appears around German stations sometimes makes you appreciate how much motivation and effort the artists(?) must have.
While the problem is definitely less nowadays, the difficult to reach places where graffiti appears around German stations sometimes makes you appreciate how much motivation and effort the artists(?) must have.
This is really painful to watch. Stupidity like this saddens me. Hope they'll figure out how to catch these people or at least teach them a lesson.
> Stupidity like this saddens me
Then here's something a little sadder: this guys are more or less considered heroes. I've never seen the video, but I've heard the story from a tourist guide, who made it clear that this was an awesome stunt that should be admired.
Then again, keep in mind that Berlin has a rather complicated story with Graffiti (the city owes a lot to its starving artists), so the Western point of view is not the only one to keep in consideration.
Then here's something a little sadder: this guys are more or less considered heroes. I've never seen the video, but I've heard the story from a tourist guide, who made it clear that this was an awesome stunt that should be admired.
Then again, keep in mind that Berlin has a rather complicated story with Graffiti (the city owes a lot to its starving artists), so the Western point of view is not the only one to keep in consideration.
Well, I'm from the eastern bloc and we have (had?) similar problems in Poland. Though I doubt anyone here would glorify or even excuse these guys. Really thought vandalism is rare and less tolerated west of us.
This was quite bad and IMO it shows that they have some bigger problem that surveillance isn't going to solve.
Take a look at Art Inconsequence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfjPlpub8MI
The funny part is they are probably on the government dole.
Having a bottle of spray paint isn't a license to decide what other people's property should look like.
Deutsche Bahn, and I wouldn't be surprised if a huge majority of their customers agrees with them, thinks trains should look in the way they've painted the trains to look.
Deutsche Bahn, and I wouldn't be surprised if a huge majority of their customers agrees with them, thinks trains should look in the way they've painted the trains to look.
How exactly does Graffiti look better than a clean train or wall?
Are you kidding me?
We're not talking painting the Guggenheim or the Parthenon here. Have you even seen the kind of buildings that get painted?
Clean wall: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sIjqDD2mNLA/TUaraGIrWsI/AAAAAAAACi...
Graffiti: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5509/979/1600/graffiti_po...
http://cdn4.vtourist.com/4/4851534-Graffiti_Building_Amsterd...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NC_JoI7fecY/S4EFOrE4ISI/AAAAAAAABY...
http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.11426410.1185/flat,550x550,07...
We're not talking painting the Guggenheim or the Parthenon here. Have you even seen the kind of buildings that get painted?
Clean wall: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sIjqDD2mNLA/TUaraGIrWsI/AAAAAAAACi...
Graffiti: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5509/979/1600/graffiti_po...
http://cdn4.vtourist.com/4/4851534-Graffiti_Building_Amsterd...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NC_JoI7fecY/S4EFOrE4ISI/AAAAAAAABY...
http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.11426410.1185/flat,550x550,07...
No there are few few pieces that would deserve to stay on. Most isn't more than ugly names (at least not tags). But what I hate most is when they cover the windows, seriously?
To this end, trains in Melbourne won't even run if there is graffiti on any surface. Creates some incredible delays, but people have all but stopped touching public trains here due to it.
If I'm not mistaken, neither will German trains.
DB could supply free masking tape and plastic sheeting to cover the windows while the artists work.
Why not go further and put up the train carriage specs/dimensions in an easy to use template online, so you can lay out your design in advance to take account of the windows.
Going any further like sponsoring chosen designs might backfire because then it all gets viewed as too commercial, and we'll get people defacing the corporate graffiti.
Why not go further and put up the train carriage specs/dimensions in an easy to use template online, so you can lay out your design in advance to take account of the windows.
Going any further like sponsoring chosen designs might backfire because then it all gets viewed as too commercial, and we'll get people defacing the corporate graffiti.
Here's the thing: The trains have already been decorated by artists that have laid out their designs in a way that takes account of the windows. When those design were applied, the windows were covered by masking tape and plastic sheeting provided by DB. In fact, the trains were taken out of service and placed in a depot for the application of the artwork. Pretty awesome, huh?
> Why not go further and put up the train carriage specs/dimensions in an easy to use template online, so you can lay out your design in advance to take account of the windows.
such stuff has been available in graffiti shops for decades :) but a little hint: nobody cares about windows :)
> Going any further like sponsoring chosen designs might backfire because then it all gets viewed as too commercial, and we'll get people defacing the corporate graffiti.
yes. google for 'adisux', an Adidas' Warsaw fiasco when they covered part of the horse racing track wall (longest graffiti gallery in Europe) for an ad and got trashed to the point the scandal got to tv, their pr firm got into panic mode for a week and in general, how to say it, their marketing campaign didn't work out.
such stuff has been available in graffiti shops for decades :) but a little hint: nobody cares about windows :)
> Going any further like sponsoring chosen designs might backfire because then it all gets viewed as too commercial, and we'll get people defacing the corporate graffiti.
yes. google for 'adisux', an Adidas' Warsaw fiasco when they covered part of the horse racing track wall (longest graffiti gallery in Europe) for an ad and got trashed to the point the scandal got to tv, their pr firm got into panic mode for a week and in general, how to say it, their marketing campaign didn't work out.
yeah, I just added the bit about wholecars. well, I don't believe graffiti is a bigger "problem" now than in the 90s when it spread as a subcultural phenomenon around Europe (just like in the 70s-80s in the US). I remember how I was amazed at how Berlin looked back in the day. Warsaw trains are also 'clean' now. I sincerely believe it's an excuse for some political experiments with drones, than fighting graffiti.
They should just declare the graffiti as an act of terrorism and rent few of Mr. Obama's drones for a few days. They are battle tested with good track record and nice infrastructure.
My opinion - the only proper way to deal with this is to commission some street art on the walls and cars themselves.
In a few places where the artists have been officially sanctioned it worked acceptably.
My opinion - the only proper way to deal with this is to commission some street art on the walls and cars themselves.
In a few places where the artists have been officially sanctioned it worked acceptably.
>They are battle tested with good track record
If by "battle" you mean one-sided murder attack, and "good track record" you mean "including killing tens of kids in weddings and such".
If by "battle" you mean one-sided murder attack, and "good track record" you mean "including killing tens of kids in weddings and such".
That is exactly what I meant... the HTML spec really needs sarcasm tag by default. But from purely engineering viewpoint they have performed marvelously.
As a rule I hate purely technical/financial solution that helps someone to isolate himself from a social problem and not solving it.
As a rule I hate purely technical/financial solution that helps someone to isolate himself from a social problem and not solving it.
>As a rule I hate purely technical/financial solution that helps someone to isolate himself from a social problem and not solving it.
I'm totally there with you on this.
We cannot solve social problems by just piling technology on them.
Just an an example (OT), it's like the thing with the right to privacy: no, cryptography ain't gonna solve the issue.
For one, they could outlaw the use of cryptography and force you to provide a passkey or be jailed. Second, that might work for a tech savvy person communicating with another tech savvy person -- if he's paranoid all the time.
What about when his non tech-savvy friend mentions his secret on a plain text email to another friend? And what about the culture of hiding, instead of a proud culture of "this is not the fucking government's business" that this creates?
I'm totally there with you on this.
We cannot solve social problems by just piling technology on them.
Just an an example (OT), it's like the thing with the right to privacy: no, cryptography ain't gonna solve the issue.
For one, they could outlaw the use of cryptography and force you to provide a passkey or be jailed. Second, that might work for a tech savvy person communicating with another tech savvy person -- if he's paranoid all the time.
What about when his non tech-savvy friend mentions his secret on a plain text email to another friend? And what about the culture of hiding, instead of a proud culture of "this is not the fucking government's business" that this creates?
> In a few places where the artists have been officially sanctioned it worked acceptably.
One of my favorite examples: http://5ptz.com/
If you're able to see it in NYC this summer, I highly recommend it - there are rumors that the owner is tearing it down to build residential high-rises.
One of my favorite examples: http://5ptz.com/
If you're able to see it in NYC this summer, I highly recommend it - there are rumors that the owner is tearing it down to build residential high-rises.
seems to have been considered, but there is too much vendor-locking
http://www.dw.de/de-maizieres-euro-hawk-problems-drone-on/a-...
http://www.dw.de/de-maizieres-euro-hawk-problems-drone-on/a-...
In Buenos Aires, it's legal and sometimes results in beauty:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuGaqLT-gO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuGaqLT-gO4
It's not legal - it may not be typically enforced, but it is definitely illegal, and it carries a fine between 4 and 60 Big Macs (to put it into scale).
Couldn't the graffiti artists just wear ski masks to avoid being identified? (Which reminds me of this story which appears on HN from time to time: http://cs.txstate.edu/~br02/cs1428/ShortStoryForEngineers.ht... )
A lots of them now wear gas masks, or at minimum put a piece of cloth (scarf or something) on their mouth+nose, breathing paint and what comes with it isn't good for you. So yeah...
"German railways to test anti-graffiti drones"
Yes, take every bit of freedom and artistic expression in the urban environment -- just because there's technology to enable it.
When there'll be technology to enable having people zapped if they do or think anything those in power don't like, they'll employ it too.
Yes, take every bit of freedom and artistic expression in the urban environment -- just because there's technology to enable it.
When there'll be technology to enable having people zapped if they do or think anything those in power don't like, they'll employ it too.
If you consider graffiti to be freedom of expression, you missed that boat when it was made illegal in the first place. Arguing we shouldn't enforce the laws we have generally won't get you very far.
>German media report that each drone will cost about 60,000 euros and fly almost silently
German police should look through kickstarter. This whole thing should not cost more than 10,000 even with IR video equipment added. Looks like some company is going to make a healthy profit
The Deutsche Bahn, who's still using floppy disks for reservations? And who knows what to power their train station displays (including some 286s with Xenix, if I remember correctly)...
They also have a route planner for almost whole Europe that is super-fast. Would be interesting to read howabout it's built.
Isn't that all still done by Hafas? I remember when their web site redirected the search to "reiseauskunft.hafas.de" (late 90s?)... Where you actually got a Postscript program when you used the print function in a Linux browser.
Sadly it's pretty rare to find something like a "technology blog" on any German corporate website, apart from a few startups.
Sadly it's pretty rare to find something like a "technology blog" on any German corporate website, apart from a few startups.
That makes me kind of ambivalent about this undertaking :) But I also understand that for the Deutsche Bahn this means substantial damage and costs. On the other hand, more effective enforcement is probably mostly going to result in a larger ratio of quick-n-dirty tags, making the overall appearance messier, uglier and more vandalised.
Now I don't think that people should just be able to paint their murals on whatever property they don't own. That's not right. I just think it won't really change the appearance for the better.
I also don't like drones, btw. Flying surveillance robots? Brrr. At least ED-209 couldn't climb stairs ...