Poll: long-term contractors, what is your hourly rate?
28 comments
I've quite a bit of finance tech experience in London, and my brother is a SAP recruiter, and the biggest thing I've learned is that most developers undercharge. There are many good devs paid $600/day, being marked up to $1500+ by agencies. Often it may go through several different agencies because one isn't on the preferred list and get marked up at every stage.
If you want to make $200/h+ and your a decent hacker, my advice would be to perfect selling yourself. Like any other sales, learn you anchor it on the value they get not your cost. Use the fear of them not meeting deadlines because they got an 'inferior' cheaper dev. Most recruiting managers are not spending their own money and have budget, but THEY will be the one the line if their project f's up.
The value to them is important. They don't pay you to be a great programmer, they pay you because they have a problem which needs code to fix. This explains why Excel VBA devs with some domain knowledge can charge $1000/day at investment banks for being a 'tactical problem solver' ie quickly hacking up neat spreadsheets for traders/analysts.
The big consultancies entire business is sending out £2000/day 'experts' who are just fresh out of college CS grads. It's absolutely insane how much big enterprise/ government are paying for substandard tech contractors.
If your specialised and that speciality is in vogue, then double up twice. Kdb specialists were being paid $10k a day by several investment banks. Many algo trading devs can charge that high, especially if they have low level (FPGA/GPU) experience.
If you want to make $200/h+ and your a decent hacker, my advice would be to perfect selling yourself. Like any other sales, learn you anchor it on the value they get not your cost. Use the fear of them not meeting deadlines because they got an 'inferior' cheaper dev. Most recruiting managers are not spending their own money and have budget, but THEY will be the one the line if their project f's up.
The value to them is important. They don't pay you to be a great programmer, they pay you because they have a problem which needs code to fix. This explains why Excel VBA devs with some domain knowledge can charge $1000/day at investment banks for being a 'tactical problem solver' ie quickly hacking up neat spreadsheets for traders/analysts.
The big consultancies entire business is sending out £2000/day 'experts' who are just fresh out of college CS grads. It's absolutely insane how much big enterprise/ government are paying for substandard tech contractors.
If your specialised and that speciality is in vogue, then double up twice. Kdb specialists were being paid $10k a day by several investment banks. Many algo trading devs can charge that high, especially if they have low level (FPGA/GPU) experience.
>If you want to make $200/h+ and your a decent hacker, my advice would be to perfect selling yourself.
so... my understanding? your first line explains why this selling is so hard:
>Often it may go through several different agencies because one isn't on the preferred list and get marked up at every stage.
The thing is? if you are on that 'preferred list' you essentially have a licence to print money, because it's goddamn difficult to get on those lists. I've seen consulting companies that are run out of some guy's house with no assets sell for substantial money because they had somehow gotten on to a preferred vendor list at a large company. As you point out, at that point you get to act as a gatekeeper, and impose significant markup on all labour.
so... my understanding? your first line explains why this selling is so hard:
>Often it may go through several different agencies because one isn't on the preferred list and get marked up at every stage.
The thing is? if you are on that 'preferred list' you essentially have a licence to print money, because it's goddamn difficult to get on those lists. I've seen consulting companies that are run out of some guy's house with no assets sell for substantial money because they had somehow gotten on to a preferred vendor list at a large company. As you point out, at that point you get to act as a gatekeeper, and impose significant markup on all labour.
Selling is hard because most devs aren't used to it. That's why agents exists; they can often get you a higher rate even after their 20-40% cut.
Most companies have a preferred list of agencies/consultancies, but they are not obliged to use them. If they find the perfect person, they can hire them.
As a career contractor you need a really good agent, or ideally master the skills of a really good agent (ie sales). You need to build and maintain a network of previous managers who know how good you are, and actually call you for work. It takes time, but is by no means impossible for the average HN user.
Most companies have a preferred list of agencies/consultancies, but they are not obliged to use them. If they find the perfect person, they can hire them.
As a career contractor you need a really good agent, or ideally master the skills of a really good agent (ie sales). You need to build and maintain a network of previous managers who know how good you are, and actually call you for work. It takes time, but is by no means impossible for the average HN user.
>As a career contractor you need a really good agent, or ideally master the skills of a really good agent (ie sales). You need to build and maintain a network of previous managers who know how good you are, and actually call you for work. It takes time, but is by no means impossible for the average HN user.
I get managers I've contracted for in the past calling me, but they always make me go through a third party agency for the pay, so I think these preferred lists are more important than you think. (I have a corporation with 4 employees, 3 fullish-time, counting me, and the total revenue would make what I'm getting paid as a consultant look small, so I believe I'd be on the correct side of Section 1706.)
I have not heard of contractors in my industry having "agents" - I mean, sure, there are body shops that I can call or that will call me; is that what you mean? The body shops work for the clients, though, not the consultants.
I get managers I've contracted for in the past calling me, but they always make me go through a third party agency for the pay, so I think these preferred lists are more important than you think. (I have a corporation with 4 employees, 3 fullish-time, counting me, and the total revenue would make what I'm getting paid as a consultant look small, so I believe I'd be on the correct side of Section 1706.)
I have not heard of contractors in my industry having "agents" - I mean, sure, there are body shops that I can call or that will call me; is that what you mean? The body shops work for the clients, though, not the consultants.
They may make you go through a preferred agency for payroll/invoicing, but any fees they add should be passed back to the employer, not met by you. Typical enterprise/gov BS, needlessly adding 10-20% to the cost.
By agents I mean 'recruitment consultants', that's what they are called in London (along with pimps). Most people hate dealing with them, but they are a necessary evil.
By agents I mean 'recruitment consultants', that's what they are called in London (along with pimps). Most people hate dealing with them, but they are a necessary evil.
>They may make you go through a preferred agency for payroll/invoicing, but any fees they add should be passed back to the employer, not met by you. Typical enterprise/gov BS, needlessly adding 10-20% to the cost.
The employer pays the agency, usually around 30% more than the agency pays me. You could say that the employer is paying that fee, sure, but that's like saying the employer is paying the 7.5% payroll tax that the employer has to pay if you are an employee and not a contractor. That's coming out of the pool of money the employer is willing to spend to get my labor, even though it's not going to me.
>By agents I mean 'recruitment consultants', that's what they are called in London (along with pimps). Most people hate dealing with them, but they are a necessary evil.
Someone who works for the consultant? I don't know of anything like that in America. As far as I can tell, in this industry and location, all of the middlemen are paid by the clients.
The employer pays the agency, usually around 30% more than the agency pays me. You could say that the employer is paying that fee, sure, but that's like saying the employer is paying the 7.5% payroll tax that the employer has to pay if you are an employee and not a contractor. That's coming out of the pool of money the employer is willing to spend to get my labor, even though it's not going to me.
>By agents I mean 'recruitment consultants', that's what they are called in London (along with pimps). Most people hate dealing with them, but they are a necessary evil.
Someone who works for the consultant? I don't know of anything like that in America. As far as I can tell, in this industry and location, all of the middlemen are paid by the clients.
As a career contractor you need a really good agent, or ideally master the skills of a really good agent (ie sales).
I'd vote for specialization. Let someone else worry about networking and selling you; you worry about being marketable.
I'd vote for specialization. Let someone else worry about networking and selling you; you worry about being marketable.
This is in addition to specialisation, not instead of. Not picking on you, but I feel sales and other 'soft skills' are severely undervalued by many otherwise talented hackers. After a certain point of technical competency, the ROI of learning right brain skills is much higher. Getting better at negotiation could quite easily get a 20% rate spike.
Letting someone else worry about selling you, is how a developer worth $2000/day only makes $600. The person 'selling you', is also 'closing you' at the lowest they can get away with.
Being 'marketable' is basically a sales task as well. You may well be a specialist in some domain, but so are another 100 people claiming to be so. In big enterprises especially, the job most often goes to the person with the best 'story', not the most qualified.
This is a good intro http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/negotiating_rates_agen...
Letting someone else worry about selling you, is how a developer worth $2000/day only makes $600. The person 'selling you', is also 'closing you' at the lowest they can get away with.
Being 'marketable' is basically a sales task as well. You may well be a specialist in some domain, but so are another 100 people claiming to be so. In big enterprises especially, the job most often goes to the person with the best 'story', not the most qualified.
This is a good intro http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/negotiating_rates_agen...
It's like anything else; you have limited time, and you need to choose your focus. I personally feel there is a lot of 'low hanging fruit' in marketing for many technical people; I think it is pretty important to have at least basic sales/marketing skills, and that going from zero to just a little bit can give you pretty big (financial) returns without a huge amount of effort. A lot of this is to just get used to asking for more, rather than just taking what you are offered.
But it's also important to remember where your focus really is, and to not go too far down the marketing rabbit hole; at least in my experience, the ROI on effort in that direction drops pretty fast once you get past that initial low-hanging fruit, just due to my lack of innate ability, and at least for me, it quickly starts looking like deception. Really, much of sales looks like fraud to me, so I go out of my way to avoid those parts of sales. No sense in playing close to the line when I can't see the line. But, one can aggressive while still being transparent and honest, and while it does bother me that being aggressive gets me more money, it's something I can live with for more money.
But it's also important to remember where your focus really is, and to not go too far down the marketing rabbit hole; at least in my experience, the ROI on effort in that direction drops pretty fast once you get past that initial low-hanging fruit, just due to my lack of innate ability, and at least for me, it quickly starts looking like deception. Really, much of sales looks like fraud to me, so I go out of my way to avoid those parts of sales. No sense in playing close to the line when I can't see the line. But, one can aggressive while still being transparent and honest, and while it does bother me that being aggressive gets me more money, it's something I can live with for more money.
(a) This poll tops out way way too low. Put the plus sign on $400.
(b) Based purely on statistical intuition a lot of you people are undercharging.
(c) Don't charge hourly.
(b) Based purely on statistical intuition a lot of you people are undercharging.
(c) Don't charge hourly.
No offense, but my lawyer doesn't even charge me $400/hour. Who is paying that much and for what? I've been in the contracting game for almost a decade now and have rarely, if ever, seen anything like that for programming work.
I'm not disparaging, I'm really just curious. Thanks.
I'm not disparaging, I'm really just curious. Thanks.
Who is paying that much and for what?
There's a cottage industry of firms specializing in conversion rate optimization for X. (My consulting practice was in no small bit doing this for B2B software firms. "Conversion optimization for e-commerce", "conversion optimization for insurance industry", etc etc are also common specialties.)
If you were hypothetically a client desiring top-tier talent, and you asked what $400 an hour would buy you, I'd say "One journeyman at a boutique firm... if you can find anybody with availability at that price." I was priced rather north of that for some of my consulting career. There were likely folks priced at a substantial premium to me.
There are substantial programming/design skills implicated in this, obviously. (At some firms there is specialization of labor but at boutique firms typically all consultants do everything required to ship.)
Edit to add: You asked who is buying this sort of thing. In my case, largely B2B software companies with revenues in the $10 to $X0 million range. In broader terms, almost every company which either does direct transactions or collects leads with value over $1 million per year should probably be buying this sort of consulting, and many of them do. What's your guesstimate on how many insurance companies there are which sell direct-to-consumer products in the US, for example? All of them are potential customers are this.
There's a cottage industry of firms specializing in conversion rate optimization for X. (My consulting practice was in no small bit doing this for B2B software firms. "Conversion optimization for e-commerce", "conversion optimization for insurance industry", etc etc are also common specialties.)
If you were hypothetically a client desiring top-tier talent, and you asked what $400 an hour would buy you, I'd say "One journeyman at a boutique firm... if you can find anybody with availability at that price." I was priced rather north of that for some of my consulting career. There were likely folks priced at a substantial premium to me.
There are substantial programming/design skills implicated in this, obviously. (At some firms there is specialization of labor but at boutique firms typically all consultants do everything required to ship.)
Edit to add: You asked who is buying this sort of thing. In my case, largely B2B software companies with revenues in the $10 to $X0 million range. In broader terms, almost every company which either does direct transactions or collects leads with value over $1 million per year should probably be buying this sort of consulting, and many of them do. What's your guesstimate on how many insurance companies there are which sell direct-to-consumer products in the US, for example? All of them are potential customers are this.
You are no longer in the consulting business? I suppose this speaks to your old post saying you can't buy good SEO consultants really.
(a) Your lawyer makes you less money than a lot of software developers make for a lot for a lot of companies. Your lawyer is also considerably less scarce than a lot of software subspecialty practitioners are.
(b) Your lawyer is also cheap. Sell a company and see what they charge.
(c) I'm not saying it's wrong not to be charging $400/hr; I'm saying, if you want a representative sample of the spectrum of hourly rates consultant, $150 is much too low. There are technical subspecialties --- not business or vertical-focused --- that routinely beat $150.
(b) Your lawyer is also cheap. Sell a company and see what they charge.
(c) I'm not saying it's wrong not to be charging $400/hr; I'm saying, if you want a representative sample of the spectrum of hourly rates consultant, $150 is much too low. There are technical subspecialties --- not business or vertical-focused --- that routinely beat $150.
Any tips on finding/learning a highly profitable subspecialty? I've changed niches and increased my rates before, but I don't even know how to begin getting to $400.
Ideally you would want to be in a niche that will directly influence revenue, makes it easier to sell your service for a high price.
patio11's post in this thread is a good example (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5769870), increasing conversion rates for X will directly effect the bottom line by Y. As long as the price you charge is lower than Y, you should be able to sell it.
Other than that, specialized knowledge is always handy of course. I know of consultants doing compliance/IT systems for banks, highly profitable since the banks only change IT systems every 10 years or so and therefore it makes no sense to keep the cutting edge expertise in house but there are enough banks so they always have work.
It does vary depending on where you live though, I don't know of many charging $400/hr (or equivalent) in Sweden. Same rings true for the limited experience I have in The Netherlands.
Edit: Edited for clarity.
Edit2: Looking at your HN profile: why not consulting in Big data or such? Big data is all the rage at the moment and it is a new niche that everyone wants in on.
patio11's post in this thread is a good example (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5769870), increasing conversion rates for X will directly effect the bottom line by Y. As long as the price you charge is lower than Y, you should be able to sell it.
Other than that, specialized knowledge is always handy of course. I know of consultants doing compliance/IT systems for banks, highly profitable since the banks only change IT systems every 10 years or so and therefore it makes no sense to keep the cutting edge expertise in house but there are enough banks so they always have work.
It does vary depending on where you live though, I don't know of many charging $400/hr (or equivalent) in Sweden. Same rings true for the limited experience I have in The Netherlands.
Edit: Edited for clarity.
Edit2: Looking at your HN profile: why not consulting in Big data or such? Big data is all the rage at the moment and it is a new niche that everyone wants in on.
Thanks for the advice. I do work in Big Data (and have consulted) but perhaps I need to specialize further?
This post brings up 2 ideas:
1. Look into marketing or other areas where applied Machine Learning would make a direct impact to the bottom line. I'm guessing it's a lot easier to charge more if your value proposition is "increase sales/revenue by $X" vs. "increase the lift of this random model by Y%".
2.It might be worth looking into banks/hedge funds. They presumably are much more willing to throw large amounts of money at the right problems.
This post brings up 2 ideas:
1. Look into marketing or other areas where applied Machine Learning would make a direct impact to the bottom line. I'm guessing it's a lot easier to charge more if your value proposition is "increase sales/revenue by $X" vs. "increase the lift of this random model by Y%".
2.It might be worth looking into banks/hedge funds. They presumably are much more willing to throw large amounts of money at the right problems.
I think both seem like very valid ideas, though I have little knowledge regarding Big Data so I cannot tell you for sure.
It is still up and coming so I think there are large opportunities for those with enough knowledge how to handle Big Data. If you can visualize the data in a clear and coherent manner you should be able to make some big money :)
Best of luck!
It is still up and coming so I think there are large opportunities for those with enough knowledge how to handle Big Data. If you can visualize the data in a clear and coherent manner you should be able to make some big money :)
Best of luck!
I'm asking WHAT specialties are charging this rate in the technical fields, because I haven't seen them, so I'm curious.
Admittedly, my lawyer is general practice, so, yes, what they charge is based on that. But, still, $400/hr for a long term contract for a programmer/developer is very high for the majority of the US market from what I have seen unless you are working on Wall St. as a specialized Quant or something.
Admittedly, my lawyer is general practice, so, yes, what they charge is based on that. But, still, $400/hr for a long term contract for a programmer/developer is very high for the majority of the US market from what I have seen unless you are working on Wall St. as a specialized Quant or something.
Add to "expert developers with domain expertise in finance" also "cryptographic security specialists", "hardware reverse engineers", and "high-end SEO". There, you have 4 subspecialties of software development. Can we agree that the poll tops out too low now? :)
Ok, that kind of specialization may make some sense then for that rate. I was just inquiring because I had never seen a rate like that on a long-term contract before. I've personally run the typical gamut of development and project management contracts charging anywhere between $100/hr and $220/hr, but nothing heavily specialized (yet, anyway).
Thanks.
Thanks.
There may be some communication issues here. Do companies even contract the services of reverse engineers for very long periods? I wonder if perhaps they are on some kind of agreement where they do an hour or three a week, or don't work regularly but are "on call"?
Reverse engineers, no. High-end software security? Yes. But high-end/hardware reverse engineers can keep themselves utilized year round, too, just at multiple clients.
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Since you are on a related field. How much do you think we must charge for specialization in reverse engineering, application virtualization, and windows drivers?
In my experience, dealing with US companies from abroad, it is difficult to sell at very high prices. It happens but my company cannot loose prospective customers if the price is lower but convenient.
In my experience, dealing with US companies from abroad, it is difficult to sell at very high prices. It happens but my company cannot loose prospective customers if the price is lower but convenient.
Absolutely no less than $1600/day. If you're doing reversing work or special-case driver stuff (can't speak to virtualization, but I'd assume similar), at least $2000/day. This sort of work is very niche, which means that if you're established, you can bill quite high up.
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I'm pretty sure if you just ask anyone who has ever contributed a driver to the Linux kernel you can find someone who is willing to do "revesing work or special-case driver stuff" for WAY less than $2000/day.
Thanks Daeken. Can I contact you in a couple of weeks about this for a brief talk? I saw that you are in hnofficehours.
Sure, any time!
wlsh, be sure to make it short. We now know what his rates look like... :)
hnofficehours?
(he enquires curiously)
(he enquires curiously)
Site down? I was curious about checking what it is
Hmm, indeed. I checked the site before I posted the link; it wasn’t responding then, but I figured it was temporary. A day later, still nada.
Was also curious. Found this:
http://blog.bitemyapp.com/projects/
HNOfficeHours Designed to allow people to offer advice/expertise, or seek people offering advice for a given problem/specialty. Includes scheduling and search. Fun weekend hack from 2.5 years ago. Now deprecated in favor of better alternatives.
HNOfficeHours Designed to allow people to offer advice/expertise, or seek people offering advice for a given problem/specialty. Includes scheduling and search. Fun weekend hack from 2.5 years ago. Now deprecated in favor of better alternatives.
I too wish to learn more about this.
> No offense, but my lawyer doesn't even charge me $400/hour.
Just as with developers, if you're getting $400/hour you're not an ordinary lawyer working with ordinary people. You can get that if you've experience and knowledge in a particular domain.
Just as with developers, if you're getting $400/hour you're not an ordinary lawyer working with ordinary people. You can get that if you've experience and knowledge in a particular domain.
It wouldn't be for programming work qua programming work. It'll be soft skills, specialist services and consulting related to that work.
Eg, penetration testing. Software project management advice. Audits of IT processes. Requirements gathering workshops. Etc etc.
Also, $400/hr would be high for a general suburban lawyer / solicitor. It's low to mid for a specialist. And suspiciously cheap for a barrister / trial lawyer (multiply by ten).
Eg, penetration testing. Software project management advice. Audits of IT processes. Requirements gathering workshops. Etc etc.
Also, $400/hr would be high for a general suburban lawyer / solicitor. It's low to mid for a specialist. And suspiciously cheap for a barrister / trial lawyer (multiply by ten).
Ok, that I might be able to see. I was thinking programming because that is what the poster asked about. I've charged in the $200/hr ballpark for project management work before, but, still, $400/hour seems way high for a long-term contract.
Basically, the path to $400/hr is to just keep upgrading your skills, keep networking and keep walking up your rates. There are businesses who'll pay without blinking.
I see senior PM jobs quoted in thousands per day.
I see senior PM jobs quoted in thousands per day.
4000 $/hour for a trial lawyer ? I hope I never get arrested for anything in the US, my lawyer would cost me more in 2 days than what I make in a year (after taxes).
I understand better why people settle all the time - who can afford to defend himself unless he is risking lifetime in jail ?
I understand better why people settle all the time - who can afford to defend himself unless he is risking lifetime in jail ?
You can settle criminal charges in most countries. In Canada specifically, it's Section 11 of the Criminal Code that allows this. I know there's a similar section in US Code, but I can't remember. Any lawyer wish to do my homework for me? :)
Being able to settle is something only the guilty should find relieving.
Were you paying attention to the Aaron Swartz mess?
Typical numbers if you're charged with a federal felony are that the statutory limit might be 50 years, if it goes to court and you lose it might be 5-7 years, if you declare guilty it might be 6 months, and the cost of defending (which could wind up with 0 or 5-7 years) is about 1.5 million.
Even if you're in the right, the cost of fighting frequently exceeds what you're capable of, and the risk of fighting may as well. Thus plenty of innocent people are likely to settle.
(Kafka would be proud. But that is reality today in "the land of the free".)
Typical numbers if you're charged with a federal felony are that the statutory limit might be 50 years, if it goes to court and you lose it might be 5-7 years, if you declare guilty it might be 6 months, and the cost of defending (which could wind up with 0 or 5-7 years) is about 1.5 million.
Even if you're in the right, the cost of fighting frequently exceeds what you're capable of, and the risk of fighting may as well. Thus plenty of innocent people are likely to settle.
(Kafka would be proud. But that is reality today in "the land of the free".)
The Aaron Swartz mess is why I say that.
That innocent people currently find it relieving that they are able to settle (and to be clear, they currently do) is a symptom of an unhealthy justice system.
In a just system, the innocent are not afraid to stand up for themselves. With the system we currently have this is not so.
That innocent people currently find it relieving that they are able to settle (and to be clear, they currently do) is a symptom of an unhealthy justice system.
In a just system, the innocent are not afraid to stand up for themselves. With the system we currently have this is not so.
You have way too much faith in the justice system. Surely, you know there are a non-trivial number of people wrongly convicted every year.
No, I have no faith in the justice system. Currently the innocent find it comforting that they can settle, but that is now how it should be.
"Being able to settle is something only the guilty SHOULD find relieving."
"Being able to settle is something only the guilty SHOULD find relieving."
having no faith in the justice system is probably the healthiest mindset. imagine having faith in LLVM to compile your code because you believe that the compiler will do the right thing. the Justice System, much like LLVM, doesn't require faith to run; it requires valid code.
That said, if you're in court, you're pretty much guilty. It doesn't matter that you've done nothing wrong (no "innocent" plea, remember?); you're in their court, and that means someone has charged you and is demanding payment. "Guilty" means "to pay", according to Black's/Bouvier's. that means that Not Guilty is somewhere you don't want to be (committing a commercial dishonor in their court == contempt).
Just pay the fine (you can pay with securities/commercial paper if you don't want to use cash/cheques), and be done with the matter. Once you've settled, file a motion to expunge with a higher court in order to clear your record.
As the guilty, I guess I find being able to settle pretty relieving. :)
That said, if you're in court, you're pretty much guilty. It doesn't matter that you've done nothing wrong (no "innocent" plea, remember?); you're in their court, and that means someone has charged you and is demanding payment. "Guilty" means "to pay", according to Black's/Bouvier's. that means that Not Guilty is somewhere you don't want to be (committing a commercial dishonor in their court == contempt).
Just pay the fine (you can pay with securities/commercial paper if you don't want to use cash/cheques), and be done with the matter. Once you've settled, file a motion to expunge with a higher court in order to clear your record.
As the guilty, I guess I find being able to settle pretty relieving. :)
while that's true, you notice that there's no "innocent" pleading in any of our courts; only two versions of "guilty". If you're charged in a court, you're either guilty, or guilty with the dishonor of a trial.
While 100% exploitable by criminals, provisions like Section 11 are there to mitigate actual miscarriages of justice while keeping all parties in honor.
While 100% exploitable by criminals, provisions like Section 11 are there to mitigate actual miscarriages of justice while keeping all parties in honor.
Criminal trial lawyers? No.
A really good corporate lawyer? Yep. 20-30k per day for the best of the best; plus various thousands of dollars for their assistants.
(Now you know why Gigaco Inc vs Humunco Inc cases can blow out to millions or even tens of millions of dollars).
A really good corporate lawyer? Yep. 20-30k per day for the best of the best; plus various thousands of dollars for their assistants.
(Now you know why Gigaco Inc vs Humunco Inc cases can blow out to millions or even tens of millions of dollars).
Have you ever hired, worked with, met, talked to or at least seen the bill from a top corporate attorney? They're expensive for sure, but not that expensive. Much of the cost of those cases comes from the army of junior associates reading through thousands of pages of evidence, etc.
I'm thinking of actual court appearance fees, but I'm ready to be utterly wrong (I don't retain many QCs).
Didn't mean to be flippant as I'm not an expert either, but through the course of my career I've spoken to a ton of attorneys including a few who routinely represent companies all of us know well. The top corporate litigators I've met charge in the $1000/hr range, but not much more than that. Their rates tend to be somewhat negotiable as well depending on the task.
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The last time I used a lawyer that was less than $400/hour it was for some routine real-estate closing.
A routine contract review is $700/hour.
A routine contract review is $700/hour.
$700/hour? Do you have Cooley reviewing your contracts or something?
No, and for a short term (like 2-hour job) is not all that high, not all that unusual. He has about 30 years experience reviewing IP contracts and computer-related contracting agreements. I don't have to explain anything to him about the field.
My lawyer's standard rate is $950.
>(a) This poll tops out way way too low. Put the plus sign on $400.
I actually think the $150 point is a sufficient number standard deviations from the the mean to warrant a cutoff point. Sure some developers are making much more, but not enough to be interesting.
I actually think the $150 point is a sufficient number standard deviations from the the mean to warrant a cutoff point. Sure some developers are making much more, but not enough to be interesting.
You are wrong, in that HN myopic "what is a typical bill rate" way. I don't find it difficult at all to be blunt and rude in making the point that you're worth more than you think you are. :)
Is this for long term contracts though, eg 3 months guaranteed work so long as you're not completely useless, implied that it could go on indefinitely?
At which point in their career would you consider a software engineer (with some sort of specialization) being worth paying > 100$/h?
What measurements or rough guesses can you use to say "this engineer is worth x $/h"?
What measurements or rough guesses can you use to say "this engineer is worth x $/h"?
Disagree.
Draw your poll answers on a graph, and you will notice that the top number at 150 is not all that much below the peak.
Draw your poll answers on a graph, and you will notice that the top number at 150 is not all that much below the peak.
re (c): Why don't you like hourly charges?
I'll keep in mind your points if I ever apply to Matasano.
The op was asking about contracts of 6 months or greater, full-time. $400/hour may be your billing rate but I doubt you'd be billing that to the same customer for 8 hours per day for six months or more. Or am I really wrong about that?
You are absolutely right. I was asking exactly that, because all the previous polls were tailored for non-long-term freelancers/consultants, including what tptacek might thought about.
When this topic comes up on HN, discussion is normally focused on consultancy rates, because consultancy is more compatible with a startup side-project - it's easier to dial up or down the hours you do as a consultant, whereas contractors are locked in to hard agreements about time which makes them much more like salaried employees.
However, I'd like to see more discussion of contracting because it's still a good step away from being an employee. For me, contracting has meant:
1) Doubling of my take-home pay compared to working as an employee
2) I have my own limited-liability company now, through which I am paid. You don't always need this as a contractor, but it's a good way to learn the essentials of setting up a company, paying tax, etc.
3) If you save a good portion of your income within a company, you can fairly easily build up a fund which would enable you to work solidly for 6 months on a startup without external funding (though some paying customers would be good!). I've got about $50,000 saved from a few years of contracting, and that really hasn't been difficult.
Sadly, information about contractor rates is hard to find. In my (albeit limited) experience, the best rates can often be in doing un-sexy "enterprise" stuff, not Rails or Node or anything likely to make the front page on HN. Most PHP devs I know make more money than Ruby devs (the trick is to be a "Drupal" or "Magento" developer rather than a "PHP" developer). This doesn't really match up at all with what gets the most buzz in the startup world.
However, I'd like to see more discussion of contracting because it's still a good step away from being an employee. For me, contracting has meant:
1) Doubling of my take-home pay compared to working as an employee
2) I have my own limited-liability company now, through which I am paid. You don't always need this as a contractor, but it's a good way to learn the essentials of setting up a company, paying tax, etc.
3) If you save a good portion of your income within a company, you can fairly easily build up a fund which would enable you to work solidly for 6 months on a startup without external funding (though some paying customers would be good!). I've got about $50,000 saved from a few years of contracting, and that really hasn't been difficult.
Sadly, information about contractor rates is hard to find. In my (albeit limited) experience, the best rates can often be in doing un-sexy "enterprise" stuff, not Rails or Node or anything likely to make the front page on HN. Most PHP devs I know make more money than Ruby devs (the trick is to be a "Drupal" or "Magento" developer rather than a "PHP" developer). This doesn't really match up at all with what gets the most buzz in the startup world.
You really are wrong about that.
Does Matasano pay full-time developers more than most popular answer here is
"$71 - $90" range is the most popular in this poll. Let's use $80/hour number.
$80/hour * 165 hour = $13200/month which translates into $158,400/year
"$71 - $90" range is the most popular in this poll. Let's use $80/hour number.
$80/hour * 165 hour = $13200/month which translates into $158,400/year
Don't underestimate how much people will pay, but it almost entirely depends on geographic location and your level of skill. Not just technical skills, but your "soft skills" like communication, teamwork, and marketing are equally important.
In the northeast US, a mid to senior level programmer/engineer could fairly easily charge between $90/hr and $120/hr (or much more in some cases, such as if you have a specialized skillset) for a fully loaded hourly rate. Don't forget (I'm sure you know this, but it bears repeating), about 25% to 35% of whatever you charge is overhead and will go towards administrative costs, not profit/salary.
The GSA (General Services Administration) publishes the average hourly rates that companies charge the US government for all kinds of services. You can probably expect about a 20% variance in these depending on your level of skill, reputation, and the geographic location and size of the client, but it is a pretty accurate and informative starting point.
Link: http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/103877
In the northeast US, a mid to senior level programmer/engineer could fairly easily charge between $90/hr and $120/hr (or much more in some cases, such as if you have a specialized skillset) for a fully loaded hourly rate. Don't forget (I'm sure you know this, but it bears repeating), about 25% to 35% of whatever you charge is overhead and will go towards administrative costs, not profit/salary.
The GSA (General Services Administration) publishes the average hourly rates that companies charge the US government for all kinds of services. You can probably expect about a 20% variance in these depending on your level of skill, reputation, and the geographic location and size of the client, but it is a pretty accurate and informative starting point.
Link: http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/103877
Yes, exactly. It's one thing to be technically knowledgeable and quite another to be able to transfer that knowledge effectively to someone else; especially if they're not technical.
Diplomacy and delicacy go a long way to improve job relations and demand, but these aren't usually taught unless you specifically seek out these lessons.
Diplomacy and delicacy go a long way to improve job relations and demand, but these aren't usually taught unless you specifically seek out these lessons.
Obligatory pro tip: Don't bill hourly. Bill weekly whenever possible, and anchor your consulting rate to the outcomes you can achieve in a week instead of to 60 minutes of your attention.
Thanks, but hourly billing is kind of defense for overtimes - I bill at the end of the months, but with the total number of hours worked.
When you bill weekly - initially, a fixed 40 hr/week is assumed. But the client might push as much work as possible for that week...
Another option could be: Weekly (or monthly) billing + hourly for overtimes.
When you bill weekly - initially, a fixed 40 hr/week is assumed. But the client might push as much work as possible for that week...
Another option could be: Weekly (or monthly) billing + hourly for overtimes.
Good point - weekly billing implies 9-5, which isn't always going to be the case. It'd be prudent to negotiate overtime rates in the contract.
I've been billing daily but yeah, in my limited consulting experience hourly is way more stressful and it isn't practical to have to account for your work at that level of granularity. Especially since this is a question specifically about long term work.
That being said, this question is more useful as an hourly rate since some people set their daily/weekly rate different because they work more or less than an 8 hour day / 40 hour week.
That being said, this question is more useful as an hourly rate since some people set their daily/weekly rate different because they work more or less than an 8 hour day / 40 hour week.
I make a half day the minimal billable unit for support of old projects. This helps control the problem of odd hours popping up here and there.
For companies that send you around the place internationally, I charge full days for international travel time - giving them the choice of sending you Business or Economy (and the corresponding amount of work that would be possible to undertake in flight).
EDIT: Re the last point - If they are paying by the hour/day/week, they are buying my time irrespective of whether I am able to work or not. Eg If they put me on economy, or put me through a day of meetings - they are going to be charged the day.
For companies that send you around the place internationally, I charge full days for international travel time - giving them the choice of sending you Business or Economy (and the corresponding amount of work that would be possible to undertake in flight).
EDIT: Re the last point - If they are paying by the hour/day/week, they are buying my time irrespective of whether I am able to work or not. Eg If they put me on economy, or put me through a day of meetings - they are going to be charged the day.
I'm not 100% clear on your last point, are you saying that if the send you Business-class you'll be able to get some amount of work done on the plane that you won't if Economy? I'm not arguing here, just trying to understand.
Honestly, yeah. In Economy, I don't even have enough room to open up my laptop. And I can't code on my iPad.
Can we speak a little more as to how you indicate that a half day is the minimal billable unit? My clients are happy to pay my high rate but I can't imagine ever suggesting to them that anything but an hour would be the minimal unit at this point.
I simply tell them billable time for support on old projects is rounded up to 4 hour blocks - this is with or without a retainer / support agreement. This covers switching time (pulling up virtual machines, getting your notes out etc, finding a Windows XP laptop etc), and scheduling it into current work schedule. I work with the client to ensure we gather work into 4 hour blocks where possible (eg. get them to build a todo list in Jira or equivalent). The idea is to avoid death by 1000 cuts - ie dribs and drabs of 1 hour jobs that they call thru at random.
Did you know that temp agencies for office staff -- receptionists, AAs, clerks, WP -- have a four-hour minimum too? WP can get as high at $25/hr for third-shift legal.
Recently started booking by the month. Same thinking, but decided to pitch the sale per month instead of just one week. And I ask for 50% payment up front as a term to confirm the booking.
Actually I think daily might work out better for most people since it allows for smaller projects and also taking single day holidays etc. when on a long contract. I used to charge £500/day until I went permanent. I only went perm. because of the additional benefits etc was higher than the tax benefits.
What's wrong about billing hourly? Sometimes a client ask me to check something that's not working as expected, it could take less than 10mins, I won't do it for free nor bill a week, I'll bill an hour. I'm happy and he is. If it takes longer I go with half-day, full-day increment.
I do document parsing/data grooming so it's a lot of tweaking/fix as the client do the Q&A on the data.
Actually I overbook myself and offload some work to reliable part-time employees (the client is happy to known that not only me but other people are working on the project).
I do document parsing/data grooming so it's a lot of tweaking/fix as the client do the Q&A on the data.
Actually I overbook myself and offload some work to reliable part-time employees (the client is happy to known that not only me but other people are working on the project).
It may be counterintuitive, but sometimes it's better to bill nothing at all for something like this than to get involved in the minutiae of billing in small increments for specific tasks. This enables you to remain psychologically anchored with that client as a daily or weekly high-value consultant, and doesn't undermine your ability to maintain an optimal billing rate and substantial minimum increment.
I think that's a good scenario for a retainer. You have a long term maintenance relationship set up that typically doesn't require chunks of work at a time.
The overheads to doing a 10 minute fix are massive: they email/call you to make a request, you change work contexts, fix the issue, test and release it, notify them that you're done, keep track of the time you spent working, send an invoice at the end of the month, keep an eye out for payment, thank them for paying etc.
Rounding up to the hour mitigates this, but unless you're doing several maintenance requests per client per week, or are charging very high ($250+) hourly rates, your business is probably losing money by keeping this client on the books.
I think it's better to negotiate a monthly retainer that ensures making tiny updates is worth your while, and then just have a set-and-forget invoice that gets sent automatically every month for that amount. Even better if you can get paid by direct debit.
The overheads to doing a 10 minute fix are massive: they email/call you to make a request, you change work contexts, fix the issue, test and release it, notify them that you're done, keep track of the time you spent working, send an invoice at the end of the month, keep an eye out for payment, thank them for paying etc.
Rounding up to the hour mitigates this, but unless you're doing several maintenance requests per client per week, or are charging very high ($250+) hourly rates, your business is probably losing money by keeping this client on the books.
I think it's better to negotiate a monthly retainer that ensures making tiny updates is worth your while, and then just have a set-and-forget invoice that gets sent automatically every month for that amount. Even better if you can get paid by direct debit.
Was placed in such a situation many years ago by an old boss before I struck out on my own. Never, EVER again. My workload was more than the regular employees, and definitely more than hourly contractors/consultants.
Shit, that's depressing, I have one main client, and a couple of fill-ins each year, averaging about $30K total, $50K on the high end.
I charge a lump sum per project, never hourly.
So, $30K / (50 weeks per year * 40 hours per week) = $15/hour, wow, that's absurd.
10+ year web developer, front end, back end, I do absolutely everything short of whatever banner/color scheme an artist puts together.
What's worse is that I've been on the JVM for 3 years, developing in Scala, loving it, and making nothing extra in return.
Clients are hosted on my purchased 2X Dell R610 (not cheap) ESXi virtualization servers living in colo, getting crazy performance for $30/month.
Pretty clear I'm horrible at selling myself and/or looking for work. Every client I've had has been via word of mouth (probably something like, hey, this guy is a GREAT deal).
Kudos to those raking it in, impressive to make $150+/hour. Working remotely doing web development I would assume is on the low end of the spectrum re: what one can charge given Wordpress and/or outsourcing options (e.g. India $5/hour).
I charge a lump sum per project, never hourly.
So, $30K / (50 weeks per year * 40 hours per week) = $15/hour, wow, that's absurd.
10+ year web developer, front end, back end, I do absolutely everything short of whatever banner/color scheme an artist puts together.
What's worse is that I've been on the JVM for 3 years, developing in Scala, loving it, and making nothing extra in return.
Clients are hosted on my purchased 2X Dell R610 (not cheap) ESXi virtualization servers living in colo, getting crazy performance for $30/month.
Pretty clear I'm horrible at selling myself and/or looking for work. Every client I've had has been via word of mouth (probably something like, hey, this guy is a GREAT deal).
Kudos to those raking it in, impressive to make $150+/hour. Working remotely doing web development I would assume is on the low end of the spectrum re: what one can charge given Wordpress and/or outsourcing options (e.g. India $5/hour).
Lump sum per project is good - and the key for you in the short term would be to take projects very similar to ones you have already done. You have hopefully built up a nice library of projects you can draw on, so if you take a new project that has 90% similar workings to a project you've already done, you could cut that 50 weeks down to 5 weeks - and $30k/5weeks isn't bad at all.
Thanks, I've been telling myself that for awhile -- the problem is I don't look for gigs.
Has been over ten years since I worked a 9 to 5 (where yes, I made more $$), all remote freelance work since I departed the cube.
In the end I enjoy coding and creating to the exclusion of all else -- need to work on the business front, marketing, putting myself out there, etc.
Has been over ten years since I worked a 9 to 5 (where yes, I made more $$), all remote freelance work since I departed the cube.
In the end I enjoy coding and creating to the exclusion of all else -- need to work on the business front, marketing, putting myself out there, etc.
Wow.
I shouldn't have clicked on this link. Now, not only I feel underpaid, but I also feel incredibly confused. How will I find people willing to pay me $400 an hour, for more than six months? I mean, mm I really reading about 800k per year? I had no idea I could one day bill that much. I honestly thought this type of annual income was reserved to large corp CEOs, hedge funds people, lawyers, and the like. Turns out I was wrong.
Time to switch from distributed systems and databases to finance and SEO, and cryptography (& crypto sound very interesting!) fast!
I shouldn't have clicked on this link. Now, not only I feel underpaid, but I also feel incredibly confused. How will I find people willing to pay me $400 an hour, for more than six months? I mean, mm I really reading about 800k per year? I had no idea I could one day bill that much. I honestly thought this type of annual income was reserved to large corp CEOs, hedge funds people, lawyers, and the like. Turns out I was wrong.
Time to switch from distributed systems and databases to finance and SEO, and cryptography (& crypto sound very interesting!) fast!
I am sure there are plenty of SEO people working for $10/hr.
It varies by client and job. 12+ years on my own mostly doing asp.net web stack stuff, SQL Server etc. Mobile with Xamarin quite a bit now.
Rate between 125 and 195 depending on various terms.
Also more interesting, I have been able to convert nearly all my projects to a retainer based - pay ahead - model. Usually in 100 hour blocks.
In Louisville KY and most of my clients are elsewhere. 5-7 years ago the expectation was largely on-site. Now 100% remote save the occasional meeting.
Rate between 125 and 195 depending on various terms.
Also more interesting, I have been able to convert nearly all my projects to a retainer based - pay ahead - model. Usually in 100 hour blocks.
In Louisville KY and most of my clients are elsewhere. 5-7 years ago the expectation was largely on-site. Now 100% remote save the occasional meeting.
That's really cool. Can you explain the retainer thing a bit more?
In 12 years I have had 3 clients go bankrupt on me and as a contractor you are simply an unsecured creditor. Good luck getting anything. I explored invoice factoring but the companies who do that want 3-5% which over the years is quite a lot of money.
I also learned that the net payment terms on my contracts with clients were as meaningful as toilet paper. Getting paid in 30 days was surprising, 60-90 was more the norm.
Ultimately I just started changing the terms with new clients - telling them that we could work on a typical net 30 arrangement at a top tier rate or I would give them a discount to buy hours ahead of time in 100 hour blocks and I would burn down against this. Most heard 'discount' and nothing else mattered. It is difficult to change a client to this model but if you can start a relationship from this perspective things get much easier.
I also learned that the net payment terms on my contracts with clients were as meaningful as toilet paper. Getting paid in 30 days was surprising, 60-90 was more the norm.
Ultimately I just started changing the terms with new clients - telling them that we could work on a typical net 30 arrangement at a top tier rate or I would give them a discount to buy hours ahead of time in 100 hour blocks and I would burn down against this. Most heard 'discount' and nothing else mattered. It is difficult to change a client to this model but if you can start a relationship from this perspective things get much easier.
> Getting paid in 30 days was surprising, 60-90 was more the norm.
I've seen this before on HN. It's frustrating that it still happens. Obviously, if they can delay paying you to 60 or 90 days (but still get paid themselves at 30 days) they make money, but it's sleazy. Perhaps people should start naming and shaming companies who do that?
Luckily, the EU has law about this.
(http://www.wragge.com/analysis_7177.asp#.UaFeT9LryDE)
I've seen this before on HN. It's frustrating that it still happens. Obviously, if they can delay paying you to 60 or 90 days (but still get paid themselves at 30 days) they make money, but it's sleazy. Perhaps people should start naming and shaming companies who do that?
Luckily, the EU has law about this.
(http://www.wragge.com/analysis_7177.asp#.UaFeT9LryDE)
Slow-paying clients are pretty much a universal constant of business. I have the good fortune to be billing a large bureaucracy with weekly payment cycle, so they do in fact pay within 30 days. All I had to do was spend 2 months on paperwork and a thousand bucks on insurance :)
For small businesses, putting off payments to suppliers can be the difference between making payroll and going bankrupt. You can hardly blame them.
I make a point to pay as soon as possible, on the theory that this will improve the service I'm getting from other professionals ("Let's do Jacques's file first, he always pays promptly and we need the cash").
For small businesses, putting off payments to suppliers can be the difference between making payroll and going bankrupt. You can hardly blame them.
I make a point to pay as soon as possible, on the theory that this will improve the service I'm getting from other professionals ("Let's do Jacques's file first, he always pays promptly and we need the cash").
That's a benefit of working with the government, too - the payments are predictable.
Also, the 60 to 90 day payments are typical for companies that like to keep things "lean" ... they want to generate revenue before they pay. Dell was known for this with their hardware purchasing - they would maintain a negative cash conversion cycle because they could sell a computer before its components were even paid for.
Also, the 60 to 90 day payments are typical for companies that like to keep things "lean" ... they want to generate revenue before they pay. Dell was known for this with their hardware purchasing - they would maintain a negative cash conversion cycle because they could sell a computer before its components were even paid for.
I wouldn't name and shame them. Then any company seeing you do that would be fearful if they're late on a payment they'll be embarrassed publicly. If they pay you in 90 days I don't think it's too sleazy. My condo board used to prioritize bills by late fees (or lack thereof). Just the way it is.
Yeah, I would include late fees in a contract. But delaying 90 days is sleazy.
I've done prepaid hours. It's good for cashflow and gives a lot of safety.
And I greatly dislike it. For some reason I don't understand, I am bugged by having to work down hours rather than simply work hours.
And I greatly dislike it. For some reason I don't understand, I am bugged by having to work down hours rather than simply work hours.
I'm guessing you're the sort of person who doesn't like debt in general. Because that essentially what it is: a debt that you can't immediately repay.
Correct, it's technically a liability on my balance sheet.
Keith - off topic - I'm in Louisville KY as well. I'd love to get in contact with you (fellow developer/designer).
Hey! I am a developer based in Louisville, Ky as well. I don't know what sort of things you develop/design for, but we have this thing called build guild that a lot of us attend each month. It's mostly for web, but there's been a handful of mobile guys there as well.
You just missed it this month (it was this last Tuesday), but maybe you'll consider coming next month? I hope so!
http://louisville.buildguild.org
You just missed it this month (it was this last Tuesday), but maybe you'll consider coming next month? I hope so!
http://louisville.buildguild.org
Choices is countable, so thats "fewer choices" not "less choices".
Breaking open 150+ might be useful in some countries.
Where I am, basic consulting would get someone $500-$750/day. With 5+ years experience in a language/library that would be $750-$1250. 5+ years experience with languages + specific domain knowledge would be $1500-$3000+. eg. Codec implementation in assembler or VHDL/Verilog.
Breaking open 150+ might be useful in some countries.
Where I am, basic consulting would get someone $500-$750/day. With 5+ years experience in a language/library that would be $750-$1250. 5+ years experience with languages + specific domain knowledge would be $1500-$3000+. eg. Codec implementation in assembler or VHDL/Verilog.
I would love to know me where I can move to and get paid $ 1250 a day for 5+ years experience developing web products in Python.
Not sure about python or web work, I mainly do C/C++/hardware/Security/Performance. I think Python+web sort of projects would best be charged as a whole or page-by-page / feature-by-feature. ie charge by outcome.
Its hard to build a case for differentiating the value of one JS/Ruby/Python programmers hours against another as the barrier to entry is low without a context.
Where as you can differentiate with a Portfolio of completed projects and indicative prices.
The other thing to look at, is can you convincingly argue 5+ years experience, or is that 5x 1 years experience? (ie doing the same thing for 5 years, versus really having moved up the expert scale).
The question to consider when you sell yourself, what is the lowest realistic substitute the person hiring you could use? How do you contextualize and stratify that decision tree?
Its hard to build a case for differentiating the value of one JS/Ruby/Python programmers hours against another as the barrier to entry is low without a context.
Where as you can differentiate with a Portfolio of completed projects and indicative prices.
The other thing to look at, is can you convincingly argue 5+ years experience, or is that 5x 1 years experience? (ie doing the same thing for 5 years, versus really having moved up the expert scale).
The question to consider when you sell yourself, what is the lowest realistic substitute the person hiring you could use? How do you contextualize and stratify that decision tree?
> Its hard to build a case for differentiating the value of one JS/Ruby/Python programmers hours against another as the barrier to entry is low without a context.
I agree. One reason I want to move away from this area is this, since the people hiring generally look at technology (Python expertise), not experience as a whole (how many complete products you have under your name). In this regard I have to compete with fresh-from-college kids since anyone can claim doing what I do.
I agree. One reason I want to move away from this area is this, since the people hiring generally look at technology (Python expertise), not experience as a whole (how many complete products you have under your name). In this regard I have to compete with fresh-from-college kids since anyone can claim doing what I do.
You don't have to move anywhere.
Just bill at least $625/day (cheap!) and take multiple projects. Working in django, it is fairly easy to deliver sufficient value to two clients per week at this rate. Very often they need the same things anyway.
Just bill at least $625/day (cheap!) and take multiple projects. Working in django, it is fairly easy to deliver sufficient value to two clients per week at this rate. Very often they need the same things anyway.
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Choices is countable, so thats "fewer choices" not "less choices".
Actually, that's a widespread misconception. See here, for example: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.h...
(edit: tl;dr: "less has been used of countables since the time of King Alfred the Great", i.e. since before English existed)
That's a linguist's take on it - you can find many more by googling [fewer less languagelog] or similar.
Actually, that's a widespread misconception. See here, for example: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.h...
(edit: tl;dr: "less has been used of countables since the time of King Alfred the Great", i.e. since before English existed)
That's a linguist's take on it - you can find many more by googling [fewer less languagelog] or similar.
That link isn't saying what you think it's saying; "fewer" is the correct word here.
I disagree. Languagelog (an eminent source of linguistic pedantry) is saying exactly what mkl is saying. His quote is in-context, I don't know what more else to say.
Can you elaborate on your theory to the contrary, Stavros?
Can you elaborate on your theory to the contrary, Stavros?
Sure. This is the salient point:
> However, it would be different for less: less refers to quantity or amount among things that are measured and to number among things that are counted.
(emphasis mine)
This means that, as the article goes on to detail, you say "we have fewer choices" but "we have less than 5 choices". In the article's tables, it compares "less <choices> than N" to "fewer <choices> than N", not just "less/fewer <choices>".
It's not saying that fewer is correct anywhere. It's saying that "5 items or fewer" sounds stilted. Therefore, the OP's "less choices" is wrong by any standard.
> However, it would be different for less: less refers to quantity or amount among things that are measured and to number among things that are counted.
(emphasis mine)
This means that, as the article goes on to detail, you say "we have fewer choices" but "we have less than 5 choices". In the article's tables, it compares "less <choices> than N" to "fewer <choices> than N", not just "less/fewer <choices>".
It's not saying that fewer is correct anywhere. It's saying that "5 items or fewer" sounds stilted. Therefore, the OP's "less choices" is wrong by any standard.
The link says fewer is preferred for countables by most.
I would say less choice, but fewer choices
I would say less choice, but fewer choices
I'm working out of Bangalore as a consultant, charging $29/hour, and making about $5000 per month. I should add, I have a way of avoiding taxes -- so that amount is exactly what I get.
However most people here seem to be working for $5/hour. The vast majority (80%) are terrible at what they do, and speak very poor English. However there's the rare talentd few that still work at $5 or less per hour.
I feel bad for them. Is there any way to help these guys out?
And more importantly, HNers: What are your thoughts on these (rather unlucky) lowly-paid programmers? I kid you not, you can find a bajillion of them in poor countries.
EDIT: been living in the US for the past several years. This is just a temporary sojourn while I get visa issues sorted out.
However most people here seem to be working for $5/hour. The vast majority (80%) are terrible at what they do, and speak very poor English. However there's the rare talentd few that still work at $5 or less per hour.
I feel bad for them. Is there any way to help these guys out?
And more importantly, HNers: What are your thoughts on these (rather unlucky) lowly-paid programmers? I kid you not, you can find a bajillion of them in poor countries.
EDIT: been living in the US for the past several years. This is just a temporary sojourn while I get visa issues sorted out.
I love potential clients that have gone down the "offshore everything to India" route, whether it be SEO or development. Their experience usually borders on a complete basket case of a project - usually turn out to be a slam dunk sales wise.
> Their experience usually borders on a complete basket case of a project - usually turn out to be a slam dunk sales wise.
Not sure what you mean here. Could you elaborate?
Not sure what you mean here. Could you elaborate?
I can put it another way - of the 9 offshored projects I've encountered this year it would seem one was a moderate success for the client (think the company was Indonesian). The others range from average through to unmitigated disaster.
My experience on Telstra projects here mirrors the previous sentence whenever certain large Indian service providers were involved.
You could almost have a strategy of coming along after these guys and cleaning up their slop if you could be bothered.
Yea I understand what you mean. I'm working with a very large non-Indian firm that's opened up a 5000+ person outsourcing office.
The quality of software is absolutely terrible. I'm flabbergasted at what they're doing here. For instance, 50% of the commits in their VCS cannot be compiled. People are actually checking in code that doesn't compile, constantly.
Another thing is, I think the project is truly over-staffed -- the mythical man-moth problem can be seen in all its horrifying glory. To make what's already worse, even worse -- the version control situation is a total mess. No one really understands how to use it. There's no concept of personal branches (as in git) -- instead if you were working on commit X, and an hour later, you want to merge it; and there 5 new commits, this is what (the smart) people do: Create a backup of all the files you changes. Pull the latest code. Merge it using Beyond Compare of some similar tool.
I think the right to do would be that each engineer has a personal branch that they work on, and there should be a person called the maintainer whose sole responsibility is to merge these personal branches to the main branch. A git-style rebase could be done at the end of the day, instead of every time you want to commit, as is the norm here.
I should say the non-Indian parent company, is a extremely successful company (ie. billions of dollars in revenue), despite the terribly-produced software. It is primarily a hardware company though -- owned and operated by a conglomerate.
On top of everything, the people here seem really unhappy. No one seems to be doing programming out of passion -- it's just a job for them, that helps them feed themselves & support their family. I know there's nothing wrong in that. This particular company (hiring) them, also makes sure that their life is hell -- with absurd deadlines, policies, etc. People complain frequently about how terrible things are (people who've been working there for 5 or more years), yet no one seems to do anything about it. Remember, the average wage of an engineer here is around $900/month -- which, I honestly find unbelievable. And I've met a few people working at this wage rate, who are actually skilled.
The quality of software is absolutely terrible. I'm flabbergasted at what they're doing here. For instance, 50% of the commits in their VCS cannot be compiled. People are actually checking in code that doesn't compile, constantly.
Another thing is, I think the project is truly over-staffed -- the mythical man-moth problem can be seen in all its horrifying glory. To make what's already worse, even worse -- the version control situation is a total mess. No one really understands how to use it. There's no concept of personal branches (as in git) -- instead if you were working on commit X, and an hour later, you want to merge it; and there 5 new commits, this is what (the smart) people do: Create a backup of all the files you changes. Pull the latest code. Merge it using Beyond Compare of some similar tool.
I think the right to do would be that each engineer has a personal branch that they work on, and there should be a person called the maintainer whose sole responsibility is to merge these personal branches to the main branch. A git-style rebase could be done at the end of the day, instead of every time you want to commit, as is the norm here.
I should say the non-Indian parent company, is a extremely successful company (ie. billions of dollars in revenue), despite the terribly-produced software. It is primarily a hardware company though -- owned and operated by a conglomerate.
On top of everything, the people here seem really unhappy. No one seems to be doing programming out of passion -- it's just a job for them, that helps them feed themselves & support their family. I know there's nothing wrong in that. This particular company (hiring) them, also makes sure that their life is hell -- with absurd deadlines, policies, etc. People complain frequently about how terrible things are (people who've been working there for 5 or more years), yet no one seems to do anything about it. Remember, the average wage of an engineer here is around $900/month -- which, I honestly find unbelievable. And I've met a few people working at this wage rate, who are actually skilled.
$900/month is awesome. I am from Pakistan and am very talented and work on amazing things, our people are much more professional. The story you mentioned about version control, it cannot happen here.
Yet they pay me $650/month. I am so sad :(
Yet they pay me $650/month. I am so sad :(
[deleted]
What is yourself tax avoidance hook? Irish entity?
What about the low end of the scale for a multi-skilled full-stack developer proficient in one or more server-side scripting languages and frameworks as well as JavaScript/CSS? What's the minimum pay that would be acceptable?
Edit: I am a 1 year exp developer working for a consultancy focused on obtaining business through a major SAAS. We develop applications on said SAAS platform, and I am paid to integrate and use scripting with the API for this companies clients. I am moving towards an independent, freelance compensation model as I feel I would be underpaid otherwise and have no time to pick up my own clients if I don't.
Is <$40/hr too low? This is what I've been offered.
Edit: I am a 1 year exp developer working for a consultancy focused on obtaining business through a major SAAS. We develop applications on said SAAS platform, and I am paid to integrate and use scripting with the API for this companies clients. I am moving towards an independent, freelance compensation model as I feel I would be underpaid otherwise and have no time to pick up my own clients if I don't.
Is <$40/hr too low? This is what I've been offered.
If you need it, take it. But don't stick with it. Regularly ask to raise your rate (I do so every 6 months).
Yes, but what would the suggested rate be? I studied finance and worked as an accountant before programming, although at a top school, a different subject.
Try to get work with overlapping subject matter, then you'll be able to charge more.
Eg. work on web projects with a finance component. Work for companies in the finance industry. And so on. Pitch your expertise in the problem domain to bump your rate way up and keep walking it up on each new engagement.
Eg. work on web projects with a finance component. Work for companies in the finance industry. And so on. Pitch your expertise in the problem domain to bump your rate way up and keep walking it up on each new engagement.
I think it depends on where you're working and the client. I have certainly turned down work at < $40/hr (particularly in metro LA or Bay Area).
On the other hand, I've also taken work at near $40 and even less some non-metro areas (even with 10+ years of experience at the time), just because I was available and that seemed pretty closely dialed in to both the general market and/or what the client could pay.
In my mind, the biggest thing to work out is:
1) Can you work a reasonable amount of time at the current rate without having to worry about money? Some places you can rent a decent 2 bedroom apartment for less than $700/month, and $30-$40/hr will be fine.
2) Are you sending the right signal about your value? And are they sending signals about how they're likely to treat you?
Once I made the mistake of pricing myself at $45/hr in a middlin'-sized California town. I later learned that other contractors were being paid in the neighborhood of $60-$75. I wasn't terribly dismayed by this fact alone (though it's always disappointing to know you left potential income on the table), but my perception was that my contributions and opinions ended up being less valued than some of the other more highly paid contractors, none of which seemed to be demonstrably more productive or skilled (and some less).
A year or two later I had another contract gig come up in the same area, and the presented an absolute ceiling of $40/hr (if they were perfectly happy with me). I already knew that was on the low side for the area, so I said no. I later found out an acquaintance had done some time there and said it was a very high pressure situation without much respect for either work-life balance or the professional opinions of contractors.
I've heard it said that you make money as much on the business you don't do as the business you pick up. Try to find out as much about market value for your location as possible. If it seems low -- if you're not sure you'll have enough money or that your contributions will be respected -- keep looking, unless you absolutely need a bird in hand.
On the other hand, I've also taken work at near $40 and even less some non-metro areas (even with 10+ years of experience at the time), just because I was available and that seemed pretty closely dialed in to both the general market and/or what the client could pay.
In my mind, the biggest thing to work out is:
1) Can you work a reasonable amount of time at the current rate without having to worry about money? Some places you can rent a decent 2 bedroom apartment for less than $700/month, and $30-$40/hr will be fine.
2) Are you sending the right signal about your value? And are they sending signals about how they're likely to treat you?
Once I made the mistake of pricing myself at $45/hr in a middlin'-sized California town. I later learned that other contractors were being paid in the neighborhood of $60-$75. I wasn't terribly dismayed by this fact alone (though it's always disappointing to know you left potential income on the table), but my perception was that my contributions and opinions ended up being less valued than some of the other more highly paid contractors, none of which seemed to be demonstrably more productive or skilled (and some less).
A year or two later I had another contract gig come up in the same area, and the presented an absolute ceiling of $40/hr (if they were perfectly happy with me). I already knew that was on the low side for the area, so I said no. I later found out an acquaintance had done some time there and said it was a very high pressure situation without much respect for either work-life balance or the professional opinions of contractors.
I've heard it said that you make money as much on the business you don't do as the business you pick up. Try to find out as much about market value for your location as possible. If it seems low -- if you're not sure you'll have enough money or that your contributions will be respected -- keep looking, unless you absolutely need a bird in hand.
I've found myself in a rather unique position contracting/consulting for a single customer. Basically I charge $8333.33/month whether I work or not. Some months there are only a few days, and others I'm quite busy.
While I could probably juggle other things on the side, I take the extra time to spend with my kids. But as they will both be in school next year I'm thinking of upping my game a little.
Basically I specialize, networking monitoring type apps.. When things on the wire needed to be decoded and made sense of. I've always wondered if there is much out there contracting for that (protocol analysis, etc).
While I could probably juggle other things on the side, I take the extra time to spend with my kids. But as they will both be in school next year I'm thinking of upping my game a little.
Basically I specialize, networking monitoring type apps.. When things on the wire needed to be decoded and made sense of. I've always wondered if there is much out there contracting for that (protocol analysis, etc).
I work as a web developer in Sweden, usually charge around $100/hour and only take assignments longer than 1 month.
That rate lets me take 45 days off to travel and work on my own projects for every month of work I do for someone else. Since the marginal tax rate is around 60% in Sweden it makes more sense to exchange higher income for more free time.
Since I am a lousy negotiator I almost always work as a subcontractor though agencies. They suggest assignments and I choose which ones to accept.
That rate lets me take 45 days off to travel and work on my own projects for every month of work I do for someone else. Since the marginal tax rate is around 60% in Sweden it makes more sense to exchange higher income for more free time.
Since I am a lousy negotiator I almost always work as a subcontractor though agencies. They suggest assignments and I choose which ones to accept.
I did the usual thing and wound up working for a former employer at a much higher rate. It took two months to set up, including getting insurance. I bill hourly because that's what their A/P department requires.
My problem is that their chosen technology is not mainstream. I'm currently at a dangerous local maxima: they pay me very well for what I'm doing, but it's not very transferrable.
My problem is that their chosen technology is not mainstream. I'm currently at a dangerous local maxima: they pay me very well for what I'm doing, but it's not very transferrable.
What kind of insurance?
Two kinds:
1. Professional Indemnity
2. Public & Product Liability
As I understand it, one of them gives my clients assurance that they can collect from me if I mess up; the other protects them from lawsuits arising from stuff I wrote. And I'm buggered if I know which is which -- just that I needed both.
1. Professional Indemnity
2. Public & Product Liability
As I understand it, one of them gives my clients assurance that they can collect from me if I mess up; the other protects them from lawsuits arising from stuff I wrote. And I'm buggered if I know which is which -- just that I needed both.
I'm rating $33USD/hr for a open-ended contract out of the US, working on e-commerce and warehouse systems (PHP/RabbitMQ and LAMP stack).
Where would I find an agent, or does anyone have any agent recommendations, since I see a few comments mentioning them.
Where would I find an agent, or does anyone have any agent recommendations, since I see a few comments mentioning them.
Front-end developer in Chicago, $20/hour.
Website developer, 16NZD/hour
Woah, dude, you need to push that if you're a contractor. I'm ding a longer term role at the moment an charging $45 but only because they're happy for me to work 3 days and be left alone for the rest while I work on my startup. 16 is crazy! What skill set do you have? You are certainly worth more than that, even in NZ.
Wow, I would have to say that seems completely unreasonable, even if you were in the smallest of towns in NZ. I don't know of anyone (inc. students) who charge less than $40/hour for development freelancing.
I was in your shoes a few years ago (in Auckland). Great experience if you're still learning, but get out of there as soon as you can. Auckland is terrible unless you're working remotely. There are much better opportunities down in Wellington or Christchurch.
I would always like to see breakdown by country too. I have a theory that rates here int he UK are lower, not just because we have a supposedly lower standard of living but because we don't pay private health insurance.
Be interesting to group by country to get the median for that country, not a silicon valley inflated amount.
Be interesting to group by country to get the median for that country, not a silicon valley inflated amount.
OK, OK, enough talk.
And I'm still pretty underpaid, ranking in the low mids.
Where can I learn everything required to become a domain expert in "finance"?
And I'm still pretty underpaid, ranking in the low mids.
Textbooks! Good textbooks strike a balance between coverage, depth and compression of reasonably current knowledge. They're not cheap brand new, so consider buying $current_ed-1.
When I want to learn a topic, I literally buy a textbook and plow through it. Sometimes I'll buy a handbook or student's guide or pop. account of the subject to go alongside.
I took an accounting unit at university. One of the smartest decisions I've ever made. I even crack the book from time to time to refresh my memory about something.
Start with a financial accounting book intended for freshmen students in your country, and then management accounting (which is largely universal), and branch from there. A lot of accounting is actually about adjusting for imprecision; meanwhile, finance is about uncertainty.
There's even a software-focused management accounting / finance book: Return on Software by Steve Tockey[1]. It's good.
When you have the basics of this stuff, lots of business chatter becomes much more comprehensible. Your clients will appreciate that you speak their language and understand their pain points (cashflow is the biggest pain in any small business).
[1] http://www.construx.com/Thought_Leadership/Books/Return_on_S...
When I want to learn a topic, I literally buy a textbook and plow through it. Sometimes I'll buy a handbook or student's guide or pop. account of the subject to go alongside.
I took an accounting unit at university. One of the smartest decisions I've ever made. I even crack the book from time to time to refresh my memory about something.
Start with a financial accounting book intended for freshmen students in your country, and then management accounting (which is largely universal), and branch from there. A lot of accounting is actually about adjusting for imprecision; meanwhile, finance is about uncertainty.
There's even a software-focused management accounting / finance book: Return on Software by Steve Tockey[1]. It's good.
When you have the basics of this stuff, lots of business chatter becomes much more comprehensible. Your clients will appreciate that you speak their language and understand their pain points (cashflow is the biggest pain in any small business).
[1] http://www.construx.com/Thought_Leadership/Books/Return_on_S...
TBH I would recommend not doing any textbook learning. This aplies to most enterprises, not just finance, but your 'domain expertise' comes from work experience in that domain. Hence the obvious chicken/egg problems, so the best way to crack it is to hustle your way into getting ANY contract in that domain. You may have to exaggerate, do 'boring' work, undercut, whatever, but once you got 1 contract under your belt, then you can position yourself for the more desirable ones.
I have to ask if actually want to work in finance, or just want more money. If it's the latter, then all you may need to do is sell yourself better (see my other comment); the rates in finance are not what they used to be, and unless it's a highly specialised skill, pretty much most enterprises pay the same range for similar roles.
If you actually want to work in a deep speciality in finance (which also are the most interesting roles), then get a contact close to that target, and then hustle your way in. In both cases you still need to sell yourself.
Also, if your not in a major financial center, then move.
I have to ask if actually want to work in finance, or just want more money. If it's the latter, then all you may need to do is sell yourself better (see my other comment); the rates in finance are not what they used to be, and unless it's a highly specialised skill, pretty much most enterprises pay the same range for similar roles.
If you actually want to work in a deep speciality in finance (which also are the most interesting roles), then get a contact close to that target, and then hustle your way in. In both cases you still need to sell yourself.
Also, if your not in a major financial center, then move.
Forgot to mention that the specialised learning will naturally happen on the job, when your speaking daily with the experts. Though a bit of wikipedia learning can't do you wrong just to talk around the subject.
Textbooks are not mutually exclusive with learning from experts.
I'll hunt those textbooks and try to find it, but "domain expert in finance" sounds cryptic.
A quant is a Sofware-Engineer who knows a lot about "Finance". http://quantstart.com/articles/Self-Study-Plan-for-Becoming-...
I first heard it here on HN that one can earn $400+/h with a legal job!
And I'm deeply deeply impressed by that. I thought that only the dark-side (botnets/silkroad) allows one to reach or even top that amount.
What's the actual job title for the $400+/h job?
A quant is a Sofware-Engineer who knows a lot about "Finance". http://quantstart.com/articles/Self-Study-Plan-for-Becoming-...
I first heard it here on HN that one can earn $400+/h with a legal job!
And I'm deeply deeply impressed by that. I thought that only the dark-side (botnets/silkroad) allows one to reach or even top that amount.
> I first heard it here on HN that one can earn $400+/h with a legal job!
You can bill $400. Large firms bill even more.
Lawyers have fat overheads, though. Nice office, staff, subscriptions to law publishing services, travel and so on.
Plus the big firms pound their fresh staff into the dirt. Bill, bill, bill or get fired. It's not a healthy profession.
You can bill $400. Large firms bill even more.
Lawyers have fat overheads, though. Nice office, staff, subscriptions to law publishing services, travel and so on.
Plus the big firms pound their fresh staff into the dirt. Bill, bill, bill or get fired. It's not a healthy profession.
why is everyone saying that 150+ is too low, if it receives so few votes?
There's a couple ways to look at this.
1. If the end bucket has more responses than the next bucket, you're probably cutting it off too soon. In this case, on the low end, the "15 or less" bucket currently has 17 points, the "15-30" bucket has 57, so that's OK. On the high end, "121-150" has 86 points, "150+" has 130, making it the 3rd largest bucket. Normally, you want the highest and lowest buckets to hold only the outliers, and not a significant fraction of the responses.
Another way to look at it is that the median currently lies in the "71-90" bucket, so there are 4 buckets below the median, but only 3 above.
For that matter, the buckets should probably have all been the same width. The lower buckets are 15 to 20 dollars wide. The higher buckets are 30 dollars wide, and as a result contain more responses.
Of course, it's hard to know how the buckets should be distributed until you have some data!
Incidentally, buckets should be non-overlapping, so "15 or less" should have been "less than 15", and "150+" should have been "151+".
1. If the end bucket has more responses than the next bucket, you're probably cutting it off too soon. In this case, on the low end, the "15 or less" bucket currently has 17 points, the "15-30" bucket has 57, so that's OK. On the high end, "121-150" has 86 points, "150+" has 130, making it the 3rd largest bucket. Normally, you want the highest and lowest buckets to hold only the outliers, and not a significant fraction of the responses.
Another way to look at it is that the median currently lies in the "71-90" bucket, so there are 4 buckets below the median, but only 3 above.
For that matter, the buckets should probably have all been the same width. The lower buckets are 15 to 20 dollars wide. The higher buckets are 30 dollars wide, and as a result contain more responses.
Of course, it's hard to know how the buckets should be distributed until you have some data!
Incidentally, buckets should be non-overlapping, so "15 or less" should have been "less than 15", and "150+" should have been "151+".
It would be interesting to see the results of the poll run at another time, to capture more people from different countries. Sometimes there are more people from India on HN.
I think the purpose of this particular poll is mainly for this one person's edification and pertains to their own situation and location, not the world at-large. However, I understand your suggestion.
I don't see any location specification. And today that doesn't matter very much due to telecommuting.
To add some additional scale - CCIE/JNCIE (Network Engineering) contractors often bill out at well over $300/hr.
Running a web&mobile devshop in India, $20/hour
100
As an independent contractor, one thing I feel I need to point out is that the hourly rate that the consultant gets, and the hourly rate the company gets charged for the consultant's time, are two VERY different things.
For example, my rate is between 90 and 110 dollars per hour for long term work. I would like to think I could charge more, but this is what the market will bear where I live. HOWEVER - there's almost always a vendor, and sometimes several vendors, between myself and the company. To the company I work for, my hourly rate looks about 10-40 dollars higher depending on the layers I go through. So for me to make 100/hr, it's likely the client is being charged 130/hr.
For example, my rate is between 90 and 110 dollars per hour for long term work. I would like to think I could charge more, but this is what the market will bear where I live. HOWEVER - there's almost always a vendor, and sometimes several vendors, between myself and the company. To the company I work for, my hourly rate looks about 10-40 dollars higher depending on the layers I go through. So for me to make 100/hr, it's likely the client is being charged 130/hr.
Unless your client requires approved vendors only (usually big corps), you can just register your own corporation, and ask your client to rehire you via your corporation at a better rate for both of you. Even at a $15/hr difference it adds up to $30K/year.
EDIT: read your contract with the vendor before you do that.
EDIT: read your contract with the vendor before you do that.
Jesus, I'm busting my balls going back to school for engineering to make $40 an hour. Looks like I'm working towards the wrong goal.
I made less choices, to make it less confusing and easier to read.
Original text:
For those who work for their clients/employers relatively long term (e.g. > 6 months).
What is your hourly rate, or your monthly salary converted into hourly rate (divided by ~165 hours) in USD?
EDIT:
for Software Engineers, [UX] Designers or any other profession with a "similar" responsibility.
So it is NOT for lawyers, doctors, financial consultants, CEO's, etc...