Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in terminal profile editor(bugzilla.gnome.org)
bugzilla.gnome.org
Bug 698544 – Background configuration is missing in terminal profile editor
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=698544
304 comments
I fail to see a single use case for terminal transparency. It makes text less readable.
I like transparent shell backgrounds. I recently upgraded to Ubuntu 13.04 using Gnome 3.8 (using the team-gnome3 ppa), and my terminals still has transparent backgrounds (with a setting in the profile menus that allow me to modify it as well). So I guess either Ubuntu or team-gnome3 patches Gnome to keep the transparent stuff in?
I don't use transparency and I think it smells like feature creep... but taking it away from those who have become semi-dependent on it is very different from having the foresight to have not added it in the first place. I think those users have a legitimate gripe.
I hate it when my development environment gets screwed with.
I hate it when my development environment gets screwed with.
It its core. I don't disagree with what gnome is doing.
Removing an old feature is fine by me if you have something better.
If you have something better.
but... If you're just trying to homogenize your user base, then you deserve the acrimony you're going to get. I'm glad this story got some publicity. Thanks Signez!
Removing an old feature is fine by me if you have something better.
If you have something better.
but... If you're just trying to homogenize your user base, then you deserve the acrimony you're going to get. I'm glad this story got some publicity. Thanks Signez!
I understand that Bugzilla may not be the appropriate place for the discussion. However, the reporter did not seem to be impolite in any way and may of not been aware there was a more suitable location to discuss the change so I'm not sure what warranted the blunt reply from the first developer who replied. The reply later on from Tobias Mueller seems much more appropriate.
It's the attitude more than the bug. People (and to a greater extent Developers) don't always have the greatest grasp on language. And this DOES NOT mean everything needs to be 'sugar coated'.
Want something removed? Create a definition of when you should activley remove something. Like this:
Candidates for feature removal of (SYSTEM)
* Does not impact how the application can be used
* Requires manual testing
* Is greater than 1% of the size of the application, or greater than 500 lines of code
If X meets all three candidates it's up for removal. Any bug created can be referred directly to this list.
There. You don't have to come out and say "We're terribly sorry, but unfortunately we've decided to remove this feature because of blah blah blah" and you don't have to just say "No.". Instead you can say "Removal decision is based on (INSERT LINK TO ABOVE), if you disagree (INSERT ACTION TO CHALLENGE)".
What people want is something that gives the impression of a uniform set of decisions. They don't want to feel that people/developers are just being petty dictators.
Want something removed? Create a definition of when you should activley remove something. Like this:
Candidates for feature removal of (SYSTEM)
* Does not impact how the application can be used
* Requires manual testing
* Is greater than 1% of the size of the application, or greater than 500 lines of code
If X meets all three candidates it's up for removal. Any bug created can be referred directly to this list.
There. You don't have to come out and say "We're terribly sorry, but unfortunately we've decided to remove this feature because of blah blah blah" and you don't have to just say "No.". Instead you can say "Removal decision is based on (INSERT LINK TO ABOVE), if you disagree (INSERT ACTION TO CHALLENGE)".
What people want is something that gives the impression of a uniform set of decisions. They don't want to feel that people/developers are just being petty dictators.
[deleted]
If accurate, this comment by Tobias Wolf is the craziest part: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=698544#c19
"He hid the removal among very unrelated changes (gtk to gsettings switch) and spread the rmeoval across more than one commit. Such that you cannot easily revert it. I strongly assume this was done intentionally."
"He hid the removal among very unrelated changes (gtk to gsettings switch) and spread the rmeoval across more than one commit. Such that you cannot easily revert it. I strongly assume this was done intentionally."
It makes me sad how prone programmers are to condescension and dismissing attitude towards other programmers. Especially leads of open-source projects. Something about having all that influence gets into people's heads.
Regarding the removal itself, this is an unfortunate trend that, as far as I'm aware, started in the last couple years with Firefox and Chrome inappropriately and unapologetically removing features and options (and changing standard behavior like the image view background color) that had previously been present and in use. I don't think it's really curable, as it always seems to be the result of inconsiderate people having too much sway over what gets pulled/committed, and that's just a risk of open source.
The dev's attitude here is also shit... if you're not willing to reasonably address valid concerns related to decisions you've made that were obviously going to affect regular users, you have no place making those decisions and forcing them on others in the first place.
The dev's attitude here is also shit... if you're not willing to reasonably address valid concerns related to decisions you've made that were obviously going to affect regular users, you have no place making those decisions and forcing them on others in the first place.
[deleted]
I understand why Gnome don't want huge configuration dialogues.
Still, it's stupid and they're wrong. They should have a big "[return to default configuration] button that people must use before filing bugs or asking for support. But they should then also have a nice config file with configurations for everything.
That allows tinkerers to tinker and to set up alternate support. It allows God_Designers_Coders to lock down everything in the One_True_Environment_Config.
It certainly avoids threads shown in the OP, which are just a turn off for some developers.
Still, it's stupid and they're wrong. They should have a big "[return to default configuration] button that people must use before filing bugs or asking for support. But they should then also have a nice config file with configurations for everything.
That allows tinkerers to tinker and to set up alternate support. It allows God_Designers_Coders to lock down everything in the One_True_Environment_Config.
It certainly avoids threads shown in the OP, which are just a turn off for some developers.
first of all, the users are not giving any argument of why they need the transparency back, just "because I like it".
Second, this is open source, hack it.
Second, this is open source, hack it.
[deleted]
I think this bug report is an excellent example of how not to interact with your users.
1. Remove a long-existing feature without telling anyone, hidden in a minor update
2. A user reports it in a friendly and informative manner. Persch [dev] closes with a single word "No". That alone should make any user furious.
3. A discussion ensues with someone finally (and understandably) concluding that this was done intentionally. To which Mueller [dev] responds: "Please don't. Please give https://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct a read. And please consider that this bugzilla is not meant to be a discussion forum but rather a place where actual bugs are kept."
Holy crap, so we are to conclude that it was not done intentionally but it should not be fixed either and that nobody is supposed to complain because the developers' code of conduct states that they always mean well by definition.
4. Another user sheds light on the backstory by pretty much proving this was done on purpose (contradicting Mueller). To which a third developer responds indignantly that the "official" workaround for this issue is sufficient and that the user should head over to the corresponding wiki page and improve the workaround description. He then closes again with a statement about how all devs are well-meaning (just for the added cognitive dissonance I suppose).
What takes the cake: from reading their description, the suggested "workaround" seems to make the whole window transparent, including the terminal text.
1. Remove a long-existing feature without telling anyone, hidden in a minor update
2. A user reports it in a friendly and informative manner. Persch [dev] closes with a single word "No". That alone should make any user furious.
3. A discussion ensues with someone finally (and understandably) concluding that this was done intentionally. To which Mueller [dev] responds: "Please don't. Please give https://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct a read. And please consider that this bugzilla is not meant to be a discussion forum but rather a place where actual bugs are kept."
Holy crap, so we are to conclude that it was not done intentionally but it should not be fixed either and that nobody is supposed to complain because the developers' code of conduct states that they always mean well by definition.
4. Another user sheds light on the backstory by pretty much proving this was done on purpose (contradicting Mueller). To which a third developer responds indignantly that the "official" workaround for this issue is sufficient and that the user should head over to the corresponding wiki page and improve the workaround description. He then closes again with a statement about how all devs are well-meaning (just for the added cognitive dissonance I suppose).
What takes the cake: from reading their description, the suggested "workaround" seems to make the whole window transparent, including the terminal text.
How about forking it?
Is it me or linux desktop was better 5 years ago?
The ui was always inconsistent and ugly (e.g. Gnome icons are a joke), but it was fast and had some cool features the competition implemented years later.
Now its behind the competition, terribly slow and still inconsistent and ugly.
Sorry devs, I don't mean to understate your work, but sometimes criticism is needed to help evolution and improvement.
The ui was always inconsistent and ugly (e.g. Gnome icons are a joke), but it was fast and had some cool features the competition implemented years later.
Now its behind the competition, terribly slow and still inconsistent and ugly.
Sorry devs, I don't mean to understate your work, but sometimes criticism is needed to help evolution and improvement.
To quote the maintainer in another bug.
--- The reason is that these settings make no sense. Why should a terminal be transparent, or have an image behind everything, but the same not apply to, say, gedit, or firefox, or evolution?
--- The reason is that these settings make no sense. Why should a terminal be transparent, or have an image behind everything, but the same not apply to, say, gedit, or firefox, or evolution?
I like it XD
GNOME has been plagued with terrible maintainers and even worse management that doesn't get rid of them immediately, leading to a drastic erosion of the brand value it acquired during GNOME 2.
In any sensible project Mr Christian Persch would be stripped of all his commit privileges immediately, but in GNOME there is no such oversight.
The root issue is probably that most GNOME people are employed by Red Hat, but Red Hat doesn't really care about the consumer desktop GNOME is targeted for because they focus on servers and enterprise.
As a result, these guys are paid to work on GNOME and thus have plenty of time to influence it, but are left without any management, which results in these guys directing the project according to their own whims, with total disregard for users.
Over time, this culture eventually influenced even people like Persch which appear to be independent maintainers.
In any sensible project Mr Christian Persch would be stripped of all his commit privileges immediately, but in GNOME there is no such oversight.
The root issue is probably that most GNOME people are employed by Red Hat, but Red Hat doesn't really care about the consumer desktop GNOME is targeted for because they focus on servers and enterprise.
As a result, these guys are paid to work on GNOME and thus have plenty of time to influence it, but are left without any management, which results in these guys directing the project according to their own whims, with total disregard for users.
Over time, this culture eventually influenced even people like Persch which appear to be independent maintainers.
While I don't personally think that terminal transparency is a big deal (just switch to Xfce Terminal if you want it), the attitude of the developers is rude and uninformative.
You don't have to be completely ingratiating; just say "This feature was removed because of [reason], if you do not like this decision, comment on [place to comment].
That's it. A "No." is unacceptable.
You don't have to be completely ingratiating; just say "This feature was removed because of [reason], if you do not like this decision, comment on [place to comment].
That's it. A "No." is unacceptable.
Here is my theory/perspective.
I, and a lot of people, are willing to spend time configuring the environment until it fits like a glove. When we have to upgrade, what we want is for that to just continue to work, but with bugs fixed.
In practice we wind up having to reconfigure to get back to the same state as before. And this makes us want to avoid upgrading. This also makes people who care not be involved in development - after all our environments are as we want them to be, and we want that to get out of our way so that we continue to work. So developers never hear from us unless something breaks. And then we're upset.
When an upgrade means getting rid of the way that we are used to working, we get unhappy. Therefore people who develop desktops do not like people like me. I can understand that. But I still do not appreciate the arrogance and condescension that I see coming from desktop developers towards people like me.
I personally have no idea why people get involved with developing desktops. It is not something that interests me. It is clear when I read what they say that they do not want anything resembling what I want.
My ideal desktop almost used to be fvwm2 - maximum real estate, multiple screens, no "helpful (mis)features" that I didn't want. The only missing feature on my wishlist is to have multiple monitors, with the monitors cycling independently through screens. But many years back Debian integrated their version of fvwm2 into Gnome, and things stopped working properly. (This was long enough ago that I no longer remember what broke - just that it did break.)
I developed a dislike of the Gnome project back then, which I've never seen anything to dissuade me from.
I, and a lot of people, are willing to spend time configuring the environment until it fits like a glove. When we have to upgrade, what we want is for that to just continue to work, but with bugs fixed.
In practice we wind up having to reconfigure to get back to the same state as before. And this makes us want to avoid upgrading. This also makes people who care not be involved in development - after all our environments are as we want them to be, and we want that to get out of our way so that we continue to work. So developers never hear from us unless something breaks. And then we're upset.
When an upgrade means getting rid of the way that we are used to working, we get unhappy. Therefore people who develop desktops do not like people like me. I can understand that. But I still do not appreciate the arrogance and condescension that I see coming from desktop developers towards people like me.
I personally have no idea why people get involved with developing desktops. It is not something that interests me. It is clear when I read what they say that they do not want anything resembling what I want.
My ideal desktop almost used to be fvwm2 - maximum real estate, multiple screens, no "helpful (mis)features" that I didn't want. The only missing feature on my wishlist is to have multiple monitors, with the monitors cycling independently through screens. But many years back Debian integrated their version of fvwm2 into Gnome, and things stopped working properly. (This was long enough ago that I no longer remember what broke - just that it did break.)
I developed a dislike of the Gnome project back then, which I've never seen anything to dissuade me from.
Disgusting. Linux desktops are lacking as it is, the destruction of mature features has it moving backwards... and now weaker than Windows 95.
No is a fine answer, if an explanation accompanies it. I am surprised GNOME still has a user base really.
Sit down and let me tell you a story about Gnome of old - a very happy little linux desktop with a bunch of happy users. For nearly ten years I was a gnome user and there were many like me who looked at their DE and smiled because it was good. but as time progressed, the desktop ecosystem got stale and most of the other DEs were unchanged in any noticeable way for more than ten years because people were happy enough.... then people started talking and decided that this year or next was the YEAR OF THE LINUX DESKTOP and something had to change to make it so.
So the gnome developers had a plan. "Linux needs a desktop for all of these people who don't use linux". We need to build something for the non-users.... and the other developers looked at each other and agreed. "YES! Let's throw away our current user base and focus on the users we don't have". The developers were very happy with themselves.
We can focus on tablets and touch... everything can be round and safe and nobody will be able to change anything because they will simply love our environment so much.
and since that sad day, the gnome developers pretended that nobody actually uses gnome and everybody who did were less than human. They waited for the billions of people on the planet that would really really love using gnome once they find it.
So I left..
Classic gnome developers and their little man syndrome.
So the gnome developers had a plan. "Linux needs a desktop for all of these people who don't use linux". We need to build something for the non-users.... and the other developers looked at each other and agreed. "YES! Let's throw away our current user base and focus on the users we don't have". The developers were very happy with themselves.
We can focus on tablets and touch... everything can be round and safe and nobody will be able to change anything because they will simply love our environment so much.
and since that sad day, the gnome developers pretended that nobody actually uses gnome and everybody who did were less than human. They waited for the billions of people on the planet that would really really love using gnome once they find it.
So I left..
Classic gnome developers and their little man syndrome.
> Persch was very devious with this one. He hid the removal among very unrelated
changes (gtk to gsettings switch) and spread the rmeoval across more than one
commit. Such that you cannot easily revert it.
What is wrong with these people?
What is wrong with these people?
A friend of mine works on gnome, and I asked him about it. The actual explanation for this is a lot more reasonable:
"Him: OK, I figured out what happened. It wasn't ideal in terms of commits. So, we have an old configuration system GConf, and we replaced it with our new one, GSettings, for N reasons. GSettings was missing a feature for gnome-terminal to implement, so it went without GSettings for a long time, until the 3.8 cycle, when we ported it over with a workaround. The port wasn't 100% complete, so it landed with the intention of adding feature parity, like with terminal transparency support.
However, after asking our team, we decided it wasn't worth it keeping the support code around for terminal transparency, and dropped it.
It's an unfortunate thing that happened where the reasoning wasn't relayed entirely in commit messages, and you're right -- it was dropped in a seemingly unrelated commit. But that's after intentions changed -- a broken port to new tech with the intention to fix it, then that changed, and thus it got dropped under the guise of "Remove dead code"
me: fair enough. so the only wrongdoing really was persch's response.
Him: Yeah. So, it turns out that he was just tired. That was the 7th or 8th bug report about it, and he didn't feel like explaining it again."
"Him: OK, I figured out what happened. It wasn't ideal in terms of commits. So, we have an old configuration system GConf, and we replaced it with our new one, GSettings, for N reasons. GSettings was missing a feature for gnome-terminal to implement, so it went without GSettings for a long time, until the 3.8 cycle, when we ported it over with a workaround. The port wasn't 100% complete, so it landed with the intention of adding feature parity, like with terminal transparency support.
However, after asking our team, we decided it wasn't worth it keeping the support code around for terminal transparency, and dropped it.
It's an unfortunate thing that happened where the reasoning wasn't relayed entirely in commit messages, and you're right -- it was dropped in a seemingly unrelated commit. But that's after intentions changed -- a broken port to new tech with the intention to fix it, then that changed, and thus it got dropped under the guise of "Remove dead code"
me: fair enough. so the only wrongdoing really was persch's response.
Him: Yeah. So, it turns out that he was just tired. That was the 7th or 8th bug report about it, and he didn't feel like explaining it again."
Because mentioning that it's Gnome 3.7 is so much less important than the bug number. (The original submission title did include some editorializing perhaps, but at least the reader had a chance of knowing that it was about Gnome 3.)
[deleted]
can anyone explain me what's so useful about having a transparent terminal?
I agree that it looks pretty and sci-fi, which is a fine reason, but from the general backlash I get a feeling there's more to it than that. I personally always found semi-transparent terminals harder to read, and prefer a plain dark background (I've tried subtle textures, but found them to be more effort to get right over how much they improved visual style).
I'm assuming it might be something about the ability to read what's behind the terminal window? But every time I encountered such a situation, the letters on the terminal were interfering with the info behind it (probably a browser), and even if I could make out what it said, a quick alt-tab switch back and forth was so much easier.
The only real advantage I can think of might be the ability to roughly determine what application is running behind the terminal, or whether there is in fact an application running or not. Which is nice but most WMs have other ways of indicating that information (taskbar, etc).