Does Anyone Here Speak Art and Tech?(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Does Anyone Here Speak Art and Tech?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/04/fashion/art-and-techology-a-clash-of-cultures.html?_r=all
45 comments
As a museum technologist and someone who works daily harnessing technology to help make collection objects and exhibitions more accessible and open, I found this article to be a bit skewed. Granted, the thrust was on personal collecting habits of those in the tech sector, but I find the arts/tech community to be vibrant, passionate and invested.
Just my 2 cents from the inside.
Just my 2 cents from the inside.
I absolutely agree - for those that are in the realm it's a great time to be involved. I'd also argue that the intersection of art + tech is still, very much, a hyper-niche in the larger tech world (which is largely what this article is portraying, for better or worse). It's unfortunate that so much of "art" is conflated with "high-net-worth individuals being told what art to buy from dealers" which is a minute aspect of the art world to focus on.
As a video game developer in NYC (I also participated in Art Hack Day: God Mode that you mentioned above, I dug your project!), I agree with you that "art" is being conflated with "high-net-worth individuals being told what art to buy from dealers."
I also agree with everyone that there are many technologists very interested in art, and maybe even a good percentage who understand this specific art world that the article talks about and how it works. The problem, however, is that the ones who are most likely to understand and perhaps even appreciate this art world are also the least likely to have any money--they are more akin to fellow "starving artists" running around Bushwick.
Though most programmers I know say they aren't in it for the money, and mostly I think this is true, in the Art-Tech intersection specifically there are many who can hack who don't actually make that much money from it.
I also agree with everyone that there are many technologists very interested in art, and maybe even a good percentage who understand this specific art world that the article talks about and how it works. The problem, however, is that the ones who are most likely to understand and perhaps even appreciate this art world are also the least likely to have any money--they are more akin to fellow "starving artists" running around Bushwick.
Though most programmers I know say they aren't in it for the money, and mostly I think this is true, in the Art-Tech intersection specifically there are many who can hack who don't actually make that much money from it.
Absolutely! We do this daily as well. Perhaps we all just need to make ourselves more well known to the tech community?
I'm a designer, but I've never been into traditional art because I grew up knowing that digital pieces could be so much more than traditional media. I think a lot of techies probably feel the same way; they're waiting for artists to better familiarize themselves with the tools we use because that's where the impressive stuff happens.
Not sure if any of these fit into your definition of art+tech, but I'm a huge fan of the stuff shown on Creative Applications (http://www.creativeapplications.net/). Joanie Lemercier's work also falls under this category (http://tumblr.joanielemercier.com/). Branden Hall is also doing a lot of interactive art pieces lately (https://vimeo.com/waxpraxis), and Manny Tan is doing some great visual stuff with various technologies as well (http://www.uncontrol.com/).
And since the individual post about it didn't get any love here the other day, the Flat Surface Shader project (http://wagerfield.github.com/flat-surface-shader/) is a great example of open-source pieces that others can fork and build off of that I hope we see a lot more of (in addition to designers and developers working on these types of projects together to begin with).
To that point, Chrome Experiments (http://workshop.chromeexperiments.com/) and Creative JS's tutorials (http://creativejs.com/tutorials/) are great introductions to what is possible for those wishing to delve into technical art. Nylllon (http://nylllon.com/) also does a good job of curating some great art+tech projects from time-to-time.
Not sure if any of these fit into your definition of art+tech, but I'm a huge fan of the stuff shown on Creative Applications (http://www.creativeapplications.net/). Joanie Lemercier's work also falls under this category (http://tumblr.joanielemercier.com/). Branden Hall is also doing a lot of interactive art pieces lately (https://vimeo.com/waxpraxis), and Manny Tan is doing some great visual stuff with various technologies as well (http://www.uncontrol.com/).
And since the individual post about it didn't get any love here the other day, the Flat Surface Shader project (http://wagerfield.github.com/flat-surface-shader/) is a great example of open-source pieces that others can fork and build off of that I hope we see a lot more of (in addition to designers and developers working on these types of projects together to begin with).
To that point, Chrome Experiments (http://workshop.chromeexperiments.com/) and Creative JS's tutorials (http://creativejs.com/tutorials/) are great introductions to what is possible for those wishing to delve into technical art. Nylllon (http://nylllon.com/) also does a good job of curating some great art+tech projects from time-to-time.
You hit the nail on the head. Many new artists go hand in hand with the tech world. I buy lots of unique pieces/prints. But I have yet to step foot into an established art gallery. I really can't stand that crowd.
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Hi John,
I loved this article, especially “I want to meet the artists and hear their stories about why they make what they make. I don’t want to go to the parties.”
I started Gertrude (www.gertrude.co) a few months ago in NYC exactly on this thought. Instead of using technology to commodify art via an online marketplace, I am more interested in using technology to match collectors and artists so they can meet at intimate, real life one-hour events (we call them Salons, like one by Gertrude Stein).
It would be cool to meet, we are in Brooklyn too! Kenneth (twitter @kschlenker)
I loved this article, especially “I want to meet the artists and hear their stories about why they make what they make. I don’t want to go to the parties.”
I started Gertrude (www.gertrude.co) a few months ago in NYC exactly on this thought. Instead of using technology to commodify art via an online marketplace, I am more interested in using technology to match collectors and artists so they can meet at intimate, real life one-hour events (we call them Salons, like one by Gertrude Stein).
It would be cool to meet, we are in Brooklyn too! Kenneth (twitter @kschlenker)
Very cool, sounds interesting! I'll touch base!
I'll append Rhizome to this list (thought they were mentioned in the article as they're doing 7on7). They've been at the forefront 'art/tech', 'new media art', 'digital art' et al since 1996. http://rhizome.org
The Ukiyo-e link is good. Should have imagined that a community will arise around pretty much anything created by mankind.
I am a photographer in my spare time and I find the blend of the rigors of programming and the flow of wandering the streets just shooting randomly so opposite and yet so similar.
I am a photographer in my spare time and I find the blend of the rigors of programming and the flow of wandering the streets just shooting randomly so opposite and yet so similar.
Thank you! I agree that art + tech can serve as good complements to each other. They definitely exercise both sides of your brain, which I appreciate!
There's also the NY Arts & Tech meetup run by Julia Kagansky with over 3000 members.
http://www.meetup.com/Arts-Culture-and-Technology/
http://www.meetup.com/Arts-Culture-and-Technology/
What role is deviantART [1] playing in tech+art in NYC and elsewhere? Is it considered significant by either party?
[1] http://deviantart.com
[1] http://deviantart.com
I don't really get the impression that it has any impact in the contemporary art world, although I would love to be proven wrong.
The closest thing I can think of was the recent Tumblr Art Symposium: http://hyperallergic.com/tumblrart/
The closest thing I can think of was the recent Tumblr Art Symposium: http://hyperallergic.com/tumblrart/
deviantART has a reputation for being the most lowbrow of the popular art sharing sites on the Internet. It's all comics, bad photography, and fanart. No serious artist would put their work up there. Flickr is slightly more respected. Tumblr has the most respect among "real artists". Good coverage on the intersection between art and tech happens at http://rhizome.org/ & http://we-make-money-not-art.com/.
this is definitely not true, although the focus is definitely on illustration/concept art/comics. there are some fantastic artists on deviant art.
(OT) Ukiyo-e site is really impressive, I wasn't aware that there were so many pieces available online, let alone collected and organized so nicely on one place. Thanks a lot for your work!
Did you go see the Gutai exhibit at the Guggenheim? It's really worth your time. I don't know a whole lot about abstract expressionism, but I really, really enjoyed it.
But why should tech people collect art? If I have few millions dollars to spare I will throw them at Tim Schaffer to make Psychonauts 2 ... games can use maecenates as well. And they are much closer to the heart and mind of the tech community.
The only thing I can read in this article is "Moooom, flow of money bypassing my pockets".
The only thing I can read in this article is "Moooom, flow of money bypassing my pockets".
Exactly. I find this quote revelaing:
“If these are our next Rockefellers, Carnegies, Fricks, whatever you want to say in terms of our wealthy American elite, then why aren’t they supporting culture?”
Culture is not fixed. They also aren't commissioning operas. What is high culture today will be tomorrow's interesting relic, and what is now dismissed as fringe will become culture.
“If these are our next Rockefellers, Carnegies, Fricks, whatever you want to say in terms of our wealthy American elite, then why aren’t they supporting culture?”
Culture is not fixed. They also aren't commissioning operas. What is high culture today will be tomorrow's interesting relic, and what is now dismissed as fringe will become culture.
Yeah, exactly, when I was reading this article I had the feeling that art gallery people were considering mandatory for wealthy people to collect art. It doesn't give any reason on why they should.
It's a group that assumes it carries the torch for 'culture', but culture here defined as the exclusive 'high culture' they value and know something about. Perhaps a bit like the self-appointed musical aristocracy Nick Hornsby took the piss out of in High Fidelity.
Why should tech people play video games? Video games rely on computers to work, but other than that, how are they closer to the soul of communities like hackernews than traditional art? Does being interested in programming mean people can't have interests outside of "nerdy" things?
where exactly does he allude to "nerds" mandatorily being interested in "nerdy things"?
his point was that the article had a very old world elitist attitude where "art" = "culture" and if one is to be considered cultured and is rich, there is somehow some obligation to purchase art.
it smelled more of, "give me some of that hi-tech money" than any serious exposition about the rift between the tech rich and the art world.
his point was that the article had a very old world elitist attitude where "art" = "culture" and if one is to be considered cultured and is rich, there is somehow some obligation to purchase art.
it smelled more of, "give me some of that hi-tech money" than any serious exposition about the rift between the tech rich and the art world.
“For technologists, it’s all about leveling the playing field, and the art world is a very structured, hierarchical system,”
This article seems to be talking exclusively of 'high art'.
Art isn't just found in galleries, and isn't necessarily for sale for a lot of money.
Obviously the NYTimes is focused on this type, but it's an important distinction.
This article seems to be talking exclusively of 'high art'.
Art isn't just found in galleries, and isn't necessarily for sale for a lot of money.
Obviously the NYTimes is focused on this type, but it's an important distinction.
I'm a programmer in NYC and I also do art on the side (I've shown in galleries in the city here as well as London and Berlin).
Honestly, most of the art scene here (with some very exceptional exceptions) is boring, incestuous, and more interested in chasing trends and trying to seem cool than showing interesting work. It's way more about who you know and whether you're doing the kind of thing that happens to be the buzz today. I don't blame tech people for not wanting to be part of that. I much prefer the scene on the west coast and Europe.
The HN crowd might be interested in Devotion Gallery in Williamsburg: http://areyoudevoted.squarespace.com/ which is small, but specifically deals with the intersection of art, science, and technology. The last show dealt with augmented reality, and other shows I've seen there have involved generative algorithmic art, glitch, video games, and 3d printing. (disclosure: my girlfriend is the gallery director).
Honestly, most of the art scene here (with some very exceptional exceptions) is boring, incestuous, and more interested in chasing trends and trying to seem cool than showing interesting work. It's way more about who you know and whether you're doing the kind of thing that happens to be the buzz today. I don't blame tech people for not wanting to be part of that. I much prefer the scene on the west coast and Europe.
The HN crowd might be interested in Devotion Gallery in Williamsburg: http://areyoudevoted.squarespace.com/ which is small, but specifically deals with the intersection of art, science, and technology. The last show dealt with augmented reality, and other shows I've seen there have involved generative algorithmic art, glitch, video games, and 3d printing. (disclosure: my girlfriend is the gallery director).
I have a large art collection and have actually commissioned work. I've worked in art galleries and have a good understanding of the culture.
The reason for 'friction' in the art business, from my view is because it's not a traditional business. Very few galleries can actually turn a profit from sales. The few that do are in the largest cities, at the top of a mountain of unprofitable, privately funded lifestyle businesses or non-profits.
The value of art is also quite hard to quantify, especially for the outsider as the article says. The art world is confusing and insular compared to other businesses, both for new artists and collectors. The upshot is it's largely accessible from the ground up! Small venues are everywhere and desperate for eyes and dollars, everyone is invited.
The reason for 'friction' in the art business, from my view is because it's not a traditional business. Very few galleries can actually turn a profit from sales. The few that do are in the largest cities, at the top of a mountain of unprofitable, privately funded lifestyle businesses or non-profits.
The value of art is also quite hard to quantify, especially for the outsider as the article says. The art world is confusing and insular compared to other businesses, both for new artists and collectors. The upshot is it's largely accessible from the ground up! Small venues are everywhere and desperate for eyes and dollars, everyone is invited.
Hello,
I work for a company called Acoustiguide and we are delighted that the tech audience is interested in high art and culture. Our company creates apps for museums; we write educational content to help explain art and record interviews with experts, then this content is combined with images of the artwork being discussed into both Android and iOS apps. And, we are located in the heart of Midtown Manhattan!
We are proud to say that we have created content and apps for some of the world's most famous institutions. In NYC this includes MoMA and the Jewish Museum; throughout the US, this includes the Barnes Foundation, Seattle Art Museum, and Asian Art Museum; and internationally, we've done work with the Louvre, State Hermitage Museum in Russia, and Guggenheim Bilbao, among others.
We would love to share with you one of our favorites (which was made in partnership with our parent company, Espro), which was made for the iPad and explains the Detroit Industry Murals by Diego Rivera at the Detroit Institute of Art. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/detroit-industry-rivera-cour...
We hope you take a look and are happy to further discuss art history and technology!
Sincerely,
Blaire
Acoustiguide, Inc.
I work for a company called Acoustiguide and we are delighted that the tech audience is interested in high art and culture. Our company creates apps for museums; we write educational content to help explain art and record interviews with experts, then this content is combined with images of the artwork being discussed into both Android and iOS apps. And, we are located in the heart of Midtown Manhattan!
We are proud to say that we have created content and apps for some of the world's most famous institutions. In NYC this includes MoMA and the Jewish Museum; throughout the US, this includes the Barnes Foundation, Seattle Art Museum, and Asian Art Museum; and internationally, we've done work with the Louvre, State Hermitage Museum in Russia, and Guggenheim Bilbao, among others.
We would love to share with you one of our favorites (which was made in partnership with our parent company, Espro), which was made for the iPad and explains the Detroit Industry Murals by Diego Rivera at the Detroit Institute of Art. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/detroit-industry-rivera-cour...
We hope you take a look and are happy to further discuss art history and technology!
Sincerely,
Blaire
Acoustiguide, Inc.
I definitely disagreed with the implication of generalized naivety among "tech" folk regarding the arts and humanities. It all depends on the circles you run in. I studied Latin and Ancient Greek for a long time and then I got into tech. My experience includes a number of tech people who have studied art history extensively across a wide range of traditions and I also know folks in tech who were linguists in their previous lives.
I would also argue, though, that an honest appreciative and humanistic approach to art and its place in our lives is to the NYC art scene as a loving physical relationship is to porn and hookers and this story seemed more concerned with the "scene" than actual art itself.
I would also argue, though, that an honest appreciative and humanistic approach to art and its place in our lives is to the NYC art scene as a loving physical relationship is to porn and hookers and this story seemed more concerned with the "scene" than actual art itself.
Hi everyone,
I loved this article, especially “I want to meet the artists and hear their stories about why they make what they make. I don’t want to go to the parties.”
I started Gertrude (www.gertrude.co) a few months ago in NYC exactly on this thought. Instead of using technology to commodify art via an online marketplace, I am more interested in using technology to match collectors and artists so they can meet at intimate, real life one-hour events (we call them Salons, like one by Gertrude Stein).
We have help 7 Salons so far with exciting artists and will do at least one every week in the next few months. You can read more about us here: www.gertrude.co
Kenneth Schlenker
I started Gertrude (www.gertrude.co) a few months ago in NYC exactly on this thought. Instead of using technology to commodify art via an online marketplace, I am more interested in using technology to match collectors and artists so they can meet at intimate, real life one-hour events (we call them Salons, like one by Gertrude Stein).
We have help 7 Salons so far with exciting artists and will do at least one every week in the next few months. You can read more about us here: www.gertrude.co
Kenneth Schlenker
I love how there's this expectation that once you've made a lot of money you're somehow instantly transformed from what you were before into something else entirely. You're suddenly supposed to care and be interested in a load of things you were never interested in before.
To me a lot of the "high arts" are seemingly networking events for rich people or soon to be rich people.
To me a lot of the "high arts" are seemingly networking events for rich people or soon to be rich people.
Would be interesting to see what Ivan Pope thinks of this (tech entrepreneur who was in the same year as Damien Hurst)
the trouble is for art dealers you have to wait to late in peoples lives or for the second generation to grow up before they start investing in art in the main.
they do seem to be "chardee" events for 60 year olds who have made it to squire their third trophy wife to
the trouble is for art dealers you have to wait to late in peoples lives or for the second generation to grow up before they start investing in art in the main.
they do seem to be "chardee" events for 60 year olds who have made it to squire their third trophy wife to
The 'artists' in this article sounded like a bunch of entitled twits. It sounded like they were saying rich people should be collecting art to support the community.
Maybe rich people from our generation want to put that money into starting new companies, philanthropy, or any number of other things. Why is art more important than any other good cause?
Maybe rich people from our generation want to put that money into starting new companies, philanthropy, or any number of other things. Why is art more important than any other good cause?
I couldn't help but detect a certain level of bourgeois elitism in the article, which in some part is why the rift is large as they claim, but in a larger sense, is why the rift is as large as they claim.
That may seem a bit confusing to read, but when you look at the typical tech-rich set, there is no inherent need to fit in with the crowd, simply for the sake of fitting-in. "The art scene" for the most part is exactly just that. Speaking as someone quite interested in art history, I can attest to the fact that the "high art" world is very much a relic from old times - when children were raised to watch their status and life was a giant popularity contest. Now that's not to say that the tech-set are impervious to elitist behavior, but tech elitism is based more heavily on talent, intelligence, and creativity. So in a way, it's a kind of elitism that is forced on the culture itself, in a pursuit for the most "innovative" way to do something. Where the art crowd admires "witty" quasi-intellectual banter, the tech-set are more likely to be interested in something, more demonstrably cool or unique to their interests. This obviously poses a dilemma for art dealers from that standpoint - how do you interest someone in something they have no interest in. It is a dilemma that art dealers face, not just with "nerds" but with anyone, really. But convincing the average Joe to be interested in your activity because "it's what the cool kids do" is a lot easier than convincing someone who may not necessarily care much for sitting at the cool kids' table.
So in a sense, the tech crowd doesn't buy into high art because it's a group that generally doesn't have any particular need to fit-in for fitting in sake, but in a larger sense, the elitism in the high art world is reliant more on popularity and everyone reading the same books and speaking the same language, which is complete anathema to a group whose principles are based more on "cool shit" than club membership.
But then again, these are just my generalizations :)
That may seem a bit confusing to read, but when you look at the typical tech-rich set, there is no inherent need to fit in with the crowd, simply for the sake of fitting-in. "The art scene" for the most part is exactly just that. Speaking as someone quite interested in art history, I can attest to the fact that the "high art" world is very much a relic from old times - when children were raised to watch their status and life was a giant popularity contest. Now that's not to say that the tech-set are impervious to elitist behavior, but tech elitism is based more heavily on talent, intelligence, and creativity. So in a way, it's a kind of elitism that is forced on the culture itself, in a pursuit for the most "innovative" way to do something. Where the art crowd admires "witty" quasi-intellectual banter, the tech-set are more likely to be interested in something, more demonstrably cool or unique to their interests. This obviously poses a dilemma for art dealers from that standpoint - how do you interest someone in something they have no interest in. It is a dilemma that art dealers face, not just with "nerds" but with anyone, really. But convincing the average Joe to be interested in your activity because "it's what the cool kids do" is a lot easier than convincing someone who may not necessarily care much for sitting at the cool kids' table.
So in a sense, the tech crowd doesn't buy into high art because it's a group that generally doesn't have any particular need to fit-in for fitting in sake, but in a larger sense, the elitism in the high art world is reliant more on popularity and everyone reading the same books and speaking the same language, which is complete anathema to a group whose principles are based more on "cool shit" than club membership.
But then again, these are just my generalizations :)
I often find myself between tech and art. Day job is mostly Rails consulting. Went to Berklee for Music Business Management (and plenty of guitar). I split my free time between technology stuff, and building functional art/music things at my hackerspace. I'd like to do yet more art. Many installations in the pipeline.
For tech people, status is achieved more by what you've done or can do, than what you own or have. If the high art world wants to cater to the richer tech people, they should focus on exclusive participatory experiences rather than objects.
I work in this space; sadly not in NY, but here's our project: http://www.seditionart.com
It's odd, I seem to recall that in the early to mid 90's there was between the art scene and the hacker scene. Most of the tech, especially the internet, was so new that nobody had a clear idea of how to do anything profitable with it, so curiosity and creativity were a shared motivation.
The money and greed around the first internet bubble killed off most of that.
The money and greed around the first internet bubble killed off most of that.
So "art" means only what, canvas and sculpture? Is music not considered "art?"
Me and most of my friends who work in tech are all big fans of art, but we buy most of our art from local (SF) artists showing in smaller galleries.
Agree with earlier comment surprised http://artsy.net/ wasn't mentioned
That being said I definitely don't fit into the tech + art audience that was being defined in this article. It seems to be implied that there is a large amount of naïveté regarding art amongst techies, which is very true for the most part, and they're just looking to burn their piles of tech money on something pretty (which is certainly debatable). I study art and art history in my spare time, with a particular focus on Japanese art and Ukiyo-e: http://ukiyo-e.org/ This seems to be very rare in the tech world with few technical people being interested in the humanities, let alone art and art history.
One point I mentioned to the reporter, but was left off, was that almost all art I collect is either antique (and then acquired from auction or dealer) or if it's from a living/contemporary artist then from the artist directly. I've never met a more disdainful group of people then art dealers, especially contemporary art dealers.
It's especially surprising that the article didn't mention Artsy (http://artsy.net) considering that it's right in NYC and it's the perfect intersection of the contemporary art world and tech. They are much more connected to contemporary art galleries and dealers and are working very hard to get people connected to the art they're interested in - which seems to be largely fixing the issue(s) outlined in the article.
There is a lot of interesting work happening in tech + art right now in NYC and I'm excited to even be in the outskirts. Cool projects like:
http://www.eyebeam.org/ http://arthackday.net/god_mode/ http://www.nypl.org/collections/labs http://smarthistory.khanacademy.org/ Not to mention many of the projects here: http://caa2013.thatcamp.org/