Bullying has to stop, now.(youtube.com)
youtube.com
Bullying has to stop, now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY
180 comments
This doesn't begin in the classroom. This starts at the home. And the same tools can be used on your own kids. Thanks for sharing.
This is brilliant, thank you!
I was lucky never to be bullied physically in school. But I deeply sympathize with those that have been.
I was lucky never to be bullied physically in school. But I deeply sympathize with those that have been.
Excellent example about how to handle a bullying situation. Now I know how can I help in a positive way if I detect something similar going on.
You want a real show about bullying? Watch 3'oclock high [1]. It's a fun story about hitting back.
I thought that video was horrible. Kids need to learn to hit back, either physically or verbally.
My kids will learn to hit back because that is how I grew up. I've blooded lips and blackened eyes, and I've had it done to me.
I grew up where the teachers were smart enough (and had enough autonomy) to let some of this play out. Fights were broken up and kids punished, but the penalties were not juvenile hall and a ride in a police car. Instead there was some detention and parent conferences, and often the respect of your peers.
[1] - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094138/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
I thought that video was horrible. Kids need to learn to hit back, either physically or verbally.
My kids will learn to hit back because that is how I grew up. I've blooded lips and blackened eyes, and I've had it done to me.
I grew up where the teachers were smart enough (and had enough autonomy) to let some of this play out. Fights were broken up and kids punished, but the penalties were not juvenile hall and a ride in a police car. Instead there was some detention and parent conferences, and often the respect of your peers.
[1] - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094138/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
I hate that this link/discussion only spent a few hours on the front page of HN, and has been replaced mostly be frivolous crap.
I'm sure the trivia behind why so many programming languages use curly braces is super fascinating, but I'd much rather be discussing something of substance.
Are these honestly the things that people would rather be discussing instead of bullying and the work of poetry and art that has inspired this discussion?
I'm a little bit disgusted by the HN community at large right now. If I could reset my karma level to 0 in trade for keeping just this one thread on the front page for a whole day I'd do it in a heart beat.
I'm sure the trivia behind why so many programming languages use curly braces is super fascinating, but I'd much rather be discussing something of substance.
Are these honestly the things that people would rather be discussing instead of bullying and the work of poetry and art that has inspired this discussion?
I'm a little bit disgusted by the HN community at large right now. If I could reset my karma level to 0 in trade for keeping just this one thread on the front page for a whole day I'd do it in a heart beat.
I don't think people appreciate how intractable a problem bullying is. For instance, bullying is qualitatively indistinguishable from teasing, which is regarded by most as part of normal, healthy socialisation. Hence low-level bullying goes unperceived. OTOH intense bullying is an embarrassment to the school statistics and hence frequently denied or covered up.
We live in a society where people still put a tremendous amount of effort into being normal and liked, and as a corollary we tend to persecute those who don't do this. Bullies are our unappointed henchmen.
We live in a society where people still put a tremendous amount of effort into being normal and liked, and as a corollary we tend to persecute those who don't do this. Bullies are our unappointed henchmen.
As a parent, bullying -- or any type of oppressive actions on my children -- is something that terrifies me. Not because I want to shield my children from the world and its negative impacts -- because I want them to learn that the world is not perfect, and to be able to cope with an imperfect society.
But because of the fact that these afflictions are often permanent and irreversible.
I think the best hope a child has against bullying is to have a parent that cares, and is educated of the impacts of bullying and how to minimize the risks of their child being subject to bullying.
Of course, this doesn't address the root issue -- the bully. And while we as a society can work towards educating others to help prevent their child from turning into a bully, there's obviously little I can do, as a parent, to change the behavior of a bully.
I feel that best way I can help my child not be the bully is to show them unconditional love, the best I know how, and to help them to love others. I also try to equip them with empathy so that they understand that their actions have a real impact on others, but this is hard sometimes -- especially with younger children.
However, I will honestly say that I don't feel equipped, as a parent, to help my child deal with bullying appropriately and effectively. Looking through this thread, I see a couple links, but does the hacker community have other good resources to equipping parents on how to help their child handle bullying?
But because of the fact that these afflictions are often permanent and irreversible.
I think the best hope a child has against bullying is to have a parent that cares, and is educated of the impacts of bullying and how to minimize the risks of their child being subject to bullying.
Of course, this doesn't address the root issue -- the bully. And while we as a society can work towards educating others to help prevent their child from turning into a bully, there's obviously little I can do, as a parent, to change the behavior of a bully.
I feel that best way I can help my child not be the bully is to show them unconditional love, the best I know how, and to help them to love others. I also try to equip them with empathy so that they understand that their actions have a real impact on others, but this is hard sometimes -- especially with younger children.
However, I will honestly say that I don't feel equipped, as a parent, to help my child deal with bullying appropriately and effectively. Looking through this thread, I see a couple links, but does the hacker community have other good resources to equipping parents on how to help their child handle bullying?
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1765109
But son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you, they've crossed a line. Fuck them up. It's the only thing these vicious freaks understand. They're wild animals. They make violence on you, you need to show them that you're the stronger, bigger animal. When someone attacks you maliciously for no reason, you need to impose your will on them.
Even if you lose, lose swinging. They respect it. Be a tough fight.
This "talk it out" shit doesn't work... it's been the dogma for the last 30-50 years, it assumes the nobility of human nature will win out. It doesn't. It's nonsense. It just simply doesn't work.
But son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you, they've crossed a line. Fuck them up. It's the only thing these vicious freaks understand. They're wild animals. They make violence on you, you need to show them that you're the stronger, bigger animal. When someone attacks you maliciously for no reason, you need to impose your will on them.
Even if you lose, lose swinging. They respect it. Be a tough fight.
This "talk it out" shit doesn't work... it's been the dogma for the last 30-50 years, it assumes the nobility of human nature will win out. It doesn't. It's nonsense. It just simply doesn't work.
This video popped into my stream a week ago now, I must have watched it eight or ten times now. It's certainly hit a chord with me.
I went to a secondary school (ages 10-14, first half of high school?) where the senior teachers gave the speeches about a "Zero-Tolerance Approach to Bullying!" and how they had only had three cases of bullying in the last few years. They lied, cooked the figures and redefined bullying to cases of systematic physical abuse which was rare. Because they did have a zero-tolerance policy towards violence.
I have two sets of parents, my dad and then my mum and step-mum. Starting secondary school someone found this out and like a lot of people suggested here when they tried to use it to verbally abuse me I exacted violence against him. Not wanting it to explode into something more, the school kept it very quiet and I didn't get punished, but neither did he. Instead, if he ever told anyone else what happened or about my parents he'd get off scott free. To his defense no-one found out for three and a half years. Instead, I got three and a half years of verbal abuse, the little physical things one can get away with in corridors, my possessions taken and hidden. Some teachers tried to help but there is only so much they can do when most of them don't care. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will break them for you" is something I remember hearing from a sympathetic teacher.
Then one day, it suddenly became common knowledge. I found myself faced with what felt like a third of the school who wanted to see me beaten. Fortunately, I appeared to be the only person who didn't know this was going to happen, there were almost as many if not more people behind me (and quickly, around me) who were adamant that I was going to be okay. The next six months were basically hell. Then as the natural progression of things, I shifted schools to a school that had a teacher who kept everyone in line and looked after those who needed help, be they the abused or the abuser. I was lucky in that I found a support network that let me rebuild myself and my self-esteem after. I am who I am despite, not because, of what I've been through. Even if there are still days where I have to look a little closer at the mirror to remind myself of that.
I went to a secondary school (ages 10-14, first half of high school?) where the senior teachers gave the speeches about a "Zero-Tolerance Approach to Bullying!" and how they had only had three cases of bullying in the last few years. They lied, cooked the figures and redefined bullying to cases of systematic physical abuse which was rare. Because they did have a zero-tolerance policy towards violence.
I have two sets of parents, my dad and then my mum and step-mum. Starting secondary school someone found this out and like a lot of people suggested here when they tried to use it to verbally abuse me I exacted violence against him. Not wanting it to explode into something more, the school kept it very quiet and I didn't get punished, but neither did he. Instead, if he ever told anyone else what happened or about my parents he'd get off scott free. To his defense no-one found out for three and a half years. Instead, I got three and a half years of verbal abuse, the little physical things one can get away with in corridors, my possessions taken and hidden. Some teachers tried to help but there is only so much they can do when most of them don't care. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will break them for you" is something I remember hearing from a sympathetic teacher.
Then one day, it suddenly became common knowledge. I found myself faced with what felt like a third of the school who wanted to see me beaten. Fortunately, I appeared to be the only person who didn't know this was going to happen, there were almost as many if not more people behind me (and quickly, around me) who were adamant that I was going to be okay. The next six months were basically hell. Then as the natural progression of things, I shifted schools to a school that had a teacher who kept everyone in line and looked after those who needed help, be they the abused or the abuser. I was lucky in that I found a support network that let me rebuild myself and my self-esteem after. I am who I am despite, not because, of what I've been through. Even if there are still days where I have to look a little closer at the mirror to remind myself of that.
Fantastic! A great call to action.
But... how do we do it? What one person perceives as hurtful is normal behavior to another. There simply is no quantitative scale of what is hurtful behavior and what is not, because it differs from person to person.
To those claiming "Our kids need to fight back", how's that other's parent going to respond when their child is beat up, for just saying the words "Pork Chop"? Not well, I can imagine. People are given nick names all the time, by their parents, by their peers. Because a minority of people take offense, can we now broadly classified this "normal" behavior as bullying?
Bullying is not right, but neither is it simple to classify or prevent.
But... how do we do it? What one person perceives as hurtful is normal behavior to another. There simply is no quantitative scale of what is hurtful behavior and what is not, because it differs from person to person.
To those claiming "Our kids need to fight back", how's that other's parent going to respond when their child is beat up, for just saying the words "Pork Chop"? Not well, I can imagine. People are given nick names all the time, by their parents, by their peers. Because a minority of people take offense, can we now broadly classified this "normal" behavior as bullying?
Bullying is not right, but neither is it simple to classify or prevent.
There is only one way I've found to successfully deal with a bully: Fight back with everything you've got, and don't be fair about it.
I got a LOT of flack from teachers who would give me the usual "solve problems without violence" bullshit, but here's the thing: In every school I went to (we moved around a lot), I got picked on by the local bullies one time, and ONLY one time. Sure, I got the shit kicked out of me a few times, but you don't actually need to win the fight. Once they realize that you won't just passively take it, they leave you alone. You will, however, have to deal with ignorant teachers.
I got a LOT of flack from teachers who would give me the usual "solve problems without violence" bullshit, but here's the thing: In every school I went to (we moved around a lot), I got picked on by the local bullies one time, and ONLY one time. Sure, I got the shit kicked out of me a few times, but you don't actually need to win the fight. Once they realize that you won't just passively take it, they leave you alone. You will, however, have to deal with ignorant teachers.
Curiously, that's more-less exactly how Ender from Orson Scott Card's "Ender Game" approached the topic.
Yes, I felt pleased and vindicated when I read that book years later. But he didn't actually have to go that far. You only need to cause enough pain to your opponent that they start to think twice.
True. It's even noted in the book, but the protagonist wanted to be absolutely, positively sure that no one - neither the current bully nor any other future bully - will try to hurt him again. He pushed things to the hard limit in pretty much everything he did. We don't have to - we shouldn't - go that far.
Not going to lie, this made me cry. Thanks for posting this. I'm sharing it with all my social circles now. Everyone needs to see this.
Also its been posted already but direct YouTube link to this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY
Also its been posted already but direct YouTube link to this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY
school rankings should include "bullying" score.
Too melodramatic, but I love the animation style.
I disagree. Bullying in public schools has one of the biggest impacts on social, cultural, and personal development. It's not just "a thing that happens" and has no effect, it's ubiquitous and it has a profound negative effect on millions upon millions of people. We give it short shrift so often because we have become inured to it. Too often we think it's just an inescapable fact of life, but it's not.
Kids are mean, grow up.
You sound just like... Oh now I know: a bully!
This is not helpful advice, at all.
This is not helpful advice, at all.
"Stop being raped." "Stop getting mugged." "Stop being stabbed." "Stop being murdered."
To be fair, he didn't say stop being bullied. He said we, adults, should get over it - kids are and will be bullied. So while I don't agree with him completely, your comments are way off topic.
Oh, riiight. Ok, then. "Stop caring about people getting raped." "Stop caring about people getting murdered." People do bad things. Get over it.
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I can relate to this website and cause. I was bullied throughout my entire high school life, in the UK that's a total of 5 years. I hated every single second of it and my academic skills reflect this. I wasn't a troubled kid, I wasn't someone who looked to cause trouble and I wasn't in trouble except a couple of occasions. I found myself being physically beaten almost every day for being the runt of the kids.
I didn't hit puberty till I was 16/17, I was about 5ft 4" during high school and now I'm 6t 2" at 21. I was your typical victim, glasses, braces, good at computers. None of it helped me. If I wasn't being beaten I was being called names, and as much as the phrase "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" is thrown around, it's not true.
Honestly, I thought about committing suicide time and time again. The teachers all but provoked the bullies and my parents - who know better now - assumed the teachers would deal wit it. They didn't. Eventually I gave up mentioning it to be people. I was pushed down stairs, burnt with glue guns, you name it.
On one occasion, I was beaten in class, my teacher turned around, saw what happened and looked away. She knew full well what happened.
Eventually I dealt with it myself, I beat the crap out of the main bully. I wasn't proud of it, but I sorted it myself. It was that moment my life changed, the last month of school - yes, it took me that long to sort - was completely different for me, I had a couple of friends. I happened to muse the other day on Twitter that if I could do one thing differently, it'd be school. I'd sort my problems on day one.
These days however I've achieved quite a lot, I'm proud of what I've done with my life and in some ways grateful for the bullying. It pushed me to better myself, I pursued computing, I'm now Lead Developer for a travel company. I have plans for a startup. I'm engaged. Life is awesome.
I donate to Beat Bullying each year, this looks like a great project.
I didn't hit puberty till I was 16/17, I was about 5ft 4" during high school and now I'm 6t 2" at 21. I was your typical victim, glasses, braces, good at computers. None of it helped me. If I wasn't being beaten I was being called names, and as much as the phrase "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" is thrown around, it's not true.
Honestly, I thought about committing suicide time and time again. The teachers all but provoked the bullies and my parents - who know better now - assumed the teachers would deal wit it. They didn't. Eventually I gave up mentioning it to be people. I was pushed down stairs, burnt with glue guns, you name it.
On one occasion, I was beaten in class, my teacher turned around, saw what happened and looked away. She knew full well what happened.
Eventually I dealt with it myself, I beat the crap out of the main bully. I wasn't proud of it, but I sorted it myself. It was that moment my life changed, the last month of school - yes, it took me that long to sort - was completely different for me, I had a couple of friends. I happened to muse the other day on Twitter that if I could do one thing differently, it'd be school. I'd sort my problems on day one.
These days however I've achieved quite a lot, I'm proud of what I've done with my life and in some ways grateful for the bullying. It pushed me to better myself, I pursued computing, I'm now Lead Developer for a travel company. I have plans for a startup. I'm engaged. Life is awesome.
I donate to Beat Bullying each year, this looks like a great project.
It's odd, people always say things like "violence doesn't solve anything" but I've heard so many stories like yours where the bullying only stops when the victim retaliates with force.
While I've personally never been on either end of bullying, what I've heard leads me to believe that for extreme physical bullying, getting violent can be the solution.
While I've personally never been on either end of bullying, what I've heard leads me to believe that for extreme physical bullying, getting violent can be the solution.
At age 9 people used to take my stuff and occasionally bully me in a sort of low-grade way. Until I beat the tar out of the main offender. You get a reputation as the smart/nerdy guy that once smashed the jock's head into a wall and nobody really bothers you again.
Bullying should absolutely be stopped by other means, but when it comes down to it these are animal level dominance games amongst young apes and violence does often solve them. I'm not saying it should, but it does.
If/when I have kids they'll be told to defend themselves and that their parents will back them up even if the school doesn't.
Bullying should absolutely be stopped by other means, but when it comes down to it these are animal level dominance games amongst young apes and violence does often solve them. I'm not saying it should, but it does.
If/when I have kids they'll be told to defend themselves and that their parents will back them up even if the school doesn't.
One of my fears about telling kids to defend themselves with force is what if the bully has a gang of friends? An older brother? Access to a weapon? How likely is it that a bully, finally beaten by the victim, escalates further?
Violence is the last resort of the incompetent, the competent use it sooner.
As a kid, figured out that by myself. In elementary school I was the typical victim. The words did not hurt me as the random people I don't care about are just that. Their opinion does not matter. However, that changed the moment it degenerated to physical violence. The problem fixed itself after punching the bully right in the nose the second time he tried the same treatment. That changed the parameters for the whole story. Went through the high school years almost without any physical violence. And by almost any I mean: got sucker punched in the 10th grade. Responded with a hook. That was an instant "calm the fuck down" for the aggressor. That was the last time I punched somebody.
You've it the nail right on the head there. Unfortunately "forced" violence seems to solve many situations.
I wouldn't fight for the sake of fighting. When I used to go clubbing there were a couple of instances where some drunken guys would kick off on me, I attempt not to fight every time, it's hard to talk a drunken mess out of a fight, but if an attack is thrown at me I'll fight back, solely to knock them down in defense and walk off.
I forgot to mention I started following Ju-Jitsu so that if I was thrown somewhere I could land safely. I now use it to defend myself or friends if we find ourselves in a situation like that. It's happened only a couple of times thankfully.
I wouldn't fight for the sake of fighting. When I used to go clubbing there were a couple of instances where some drunken guys would kick off on me, I attempt not to fight every time, it's hard to talk a drunken mess out of a fight, but if an attack is thrown at me I'll fight back, solely to knock them down in defense and walk off.
I forgot to mention I started following Ju-Jitsu so that if I was thrown somewhere I could land safely. I now use it to defend myself or friends if we find ourselves in a situation like that. It's happened only a couple of times thankfully.
Carefully applied violence is often useful and even socially accepted. It's both sad and interesting.
Though common amongst much of the animal kingdom.
A lot of the mechanisms we have in society are designed to contain or counteract our animalistic behavior, but not all kids are raised well enough or are mature enough to behave and physical correction can work wonders to break errant behavior.
A lot of the mechanisms we have in society are designed to contain or counteract our animalistic behavior, but not all kids are raised well enough or are mature enough to behave and physical correction can work wonders to break errant behavior.
To add fire to this, you don't even need to cause actual hurt. When I snapped at bullys, my attack was largely ineffective in causing actual hurt to him. He easily blocked and dodged my rage infused punches and kicks until I had tired myself out. But it was overwhelmingly effective in stopping the bullying.
I was also bullied until the bully got an ass kicking. For all the bullying he did, he was surprisingly easy to beat up, or maybe he didn't think I was going to punch him.
He actually avoided me afterwards.
He actually avoided me afterwards.
> my teacher turned around, saw what happened and turned away.
I want to hope that we'll reach some point where this won't happen anymore.
I want to hope that we'll reach some point where this won't happen anymore.
Likewise. I remember being backed against a wall, lads a lot bigger around me. I was lifted up the wall punched in the stomach, looked up and saw the teacher almost with fear in her face, too scared to stand up for a student.
Not all of my teachers were like that thankfully, but that is the root of the problem. Teachers are too scared to deal with incidents like mine.
Not all of my teachers were like that thankfully, but that is the root of the problem. Teachers are too scared to deal with incidents like mine.
Can they? At least in the UK you get the stupid "child rights/abuse" nonsense as soon as they try any sort of disciplinary action... Ant the bullies well aware of this situation.
Yes, they can, and the teacher can also get into trouble for not defending children too. Some bullies when they are 15 can be terrifying which is I think the real reason teachers don't confront them. The bullies aren't criminal masterminds and legal experts, they just claim foul on all discipline.
I think you're right on both points: yes, teachers can apply reasonable force [1], but as you said, teachers might not actually be physically able to restrain them without a risk.
[1] https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/...
[1] https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/...
Very impressive piece of work.
But what the hell with the UI of this website? It can't find a link to the respective Youtube site, nor can I click the annotations.
It looks really nice, but it's not very usable like that.
But what the hell with the UI of this website? It can't find a link to the respective Youtube site, nor can I click the annotations.
It looks really nice, but it's not very usable like that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=... if you would like a direct link (to watch it in 1080p, the animation is so superb you might as well :)).
I was thinking maybe it was a little too melodramatic... but perhaps that helps to facilitate a cathartic release. At any rate -- it's certainly a well-produced piece and worth a watch.
I was thinking maybe it was a little too melodramatic... but perhaps that helps to facilitate a cathartic release. At any rate -- it's certainly a well-produced piece and worth a watch.
Yes sorry about this. The site - GetInspired365 has two parts to it. One part which is a daily dose of inspiration, and another which is where users can submit inspiring things they've found - a user has posted this video on to the site and not included the source and as such may be a bit frustrating. The original source is here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY
THANK YOU for the youtube link! The original site made my blood pressure go up and my damn browser freeze.
Beautiful clip!
The thing that strikes me about school is that people are pretty much locked into it. Once you get out of that system, if you are surrounded by nasty people, you can usually just leave. That's what I do, anyway. With school, not so much luck - it's possible to transfer to another school, but it's usually not very easy to pull of.
Of course the feeling of not being liked sticks, too, but perhaps it wouldn't even manifest itself so much if kids wouldn't have to expose themselves to so much nastiness to begin with.
I wish I could explain to all the depressed kids that there is actually a whole world out there, beyond the borders of the small environment they grew up in. With 6 billion people on the planet, there are many, many people you can relate to. The people you went to school with are just random.
Of course the feeling of not being liked sticks, too, but perhaps it wouldn't even manifest itself so much if kids wouldn't have to expose themselves to so much nastiness to begin with.
I wish I could explain to all the depressed kids that there is actually a whole world out there, beyond the borders of the small environment they grew up in. With 6 billion people on the planet, there are many, many people you can relate to. The people you went to school with are just random.
This is so damn true! My grades suffered in high school because of occasional bullying. This caused frequent feeling of uncertainty if I was to run into people who I would rather avoid. I remember sleeping when I got home from school because the emotional toll was exhausting. However, the only thing that kept me going was knowing that I would reinvent myself after I got out of high school.
The 'locked in' part is a huge factor. High school was a prison to me. Once I had a choice, my life id an absolute turn around. One other thing to add is that pride added to the problem. To tell my parents I was being bullied was impossible. So, this makes you isolated with your own mental anguish.
The 'locked in' part is a huge factor. High school was a prison to me. Once I had a choice, my life id an absolute turn around. One other thing to add is that pride added to the problem. To tell my parents I was being bullied was impossible. So, this makes you isolated with your own mental anguish.
Exactly this. I remember the feeling of being very surprised to find out that life could meant so much more after I finished school. Suddenly bad things didn't happen because you were unlucky and that's it, but as a result of your choices that you could to some extent control. Things started to have, you know, meaning.
And yet, being 'locked in', as you describe it, teaches a valuable life lesson: sometimes you have to deal with what you have, instead of run away or hide. As described above, sometimes you need to punch a factor that makes your situation undesireable and triggers your "flight" response to greatly increase your situation.
As in, this is your life, deal with it. You can't run away, so fix your problems instead of running from them. Teachers turn their back on you, so it's up to you. etc etc etc.
Learning that will help you in your life. Your job sucks: you can either run away and find something else, or you can kick it into high gear and make it worth your while, save the company, get rich. Depending on situation, of course.
As in, this is your life, deal with it. You can't run away, so fix your problems instead of running from them. Teachers turn their back on you, so it's up to you. etc etc etc.
Learning that will help you in your life. Your job sucks: you can either run away and find something else, or you can kick it into high gear and make it worth your while, save the company, get rich. Depending on situation, of course.
You forget that you are kid when you are in school; you barely scratched the surface of understanding how people think, what motivates and what drives them, heck you don't even know how would you take care of yourself alone. And yet you're being asked to deal with this. Yes, we eventually have to learn how to deal with life, but not this way.
I'm glad that punching back worked out for some kids, but I would be wary of inferring a general rule from that. Might be the kids for whom punching back didn't work out just didn't tell their story.
What could also happen is that the bully gathers his friends and strikes back in a big way. Or maybe he has a knife. Or whatever - I don't know, probably I would try to punch back, too. But I don't think it is essential for people to go through such an ordeal.
What could also happen is that the bully gathers his friends and strikes back in a big way. Or maybe he has a knife. Or whatever - I don't know, probably I would try to punch back, too. But I don't think it is essential for people to go through such an ordeal.
I don't think anything has touched me this deeply for years. I even got a little teary (which is rare for me).
A lot of this I can relate to. School was hell for me, and I still struggle to forgive the adults around me during that period who, despite knowing what I (and others) faced, failed us utterly. Of course, school is rough and tumble - but when things went too far they sympathised, and in some rare cases talked to the bullies parents. I don't ever remember anyone being excluded or punished properly, though.
One thing I am never, ever, going to tell my kids is the stupid "sticks and stones" rhyme. That's just to make you feel better, not them. I'd get depressed, or upset, and get hugs and sympathy, but no solutions.
The first guy he describes in this video I can relate to. I became withdrawn, anti-social, believing that solace was in books and learning rather than other people. Fortunately I ran into some people at university who slowly dragged me out of myself. And, eventually, I met a girl who tore apart my world and helped me rebuild it (although, maybe she didn't realise at the time, I'd got so good at hiding everything away).
One particular idiot at school loved to taunt me, hold my upside down by my ankles. One day I snapped, and as he ran at me I picked up a chair and swung it. So. Much. Trouble. I was very nearly expelled... The same guy was a consummate bully, big, loud and evil to anyone weaker than him. There was another kid in our class, a bit large but it was more muscle than fat. He was lovely, quiet and very very odd (I think he came from a bad family). One day the bully was shaking down some younger kids in the playground and, I remember this vividly, this guy just decided enough was enough. He calmly walked across the playground and threw bully against the wall. Pounded him in the face a few times and told him to stop. It worked, so so well (he was excluded of course, but there you go...), and we rarely suffered again.
What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence?
I am certain that school ripped up several years of my life, and still adversely affects me to this day. But what can we do? Kids will be kids, eh?
A lot of this I can relate to. School was hell for me, and I still struggle to forgive the adults around me during that period who, despite knowing what I (and others) faced, failed us utterly. Of course, school is rough and tumble - but when things went too far they sympathised, and in some rare cases talked to the bullies parents. I don't ever remember anyone being excluded or punished properly, though.
One thing I am never, ever, going to tell my kids is the stupid "sticks and stones" rhyme. That's just to make you feel better, not them. I'd get depressed, or upset, and get hugs and sympathy, but no solutions.
The first guy he describes in this video I can relate to. I became withdrawn, anti-social, believing that solace was in books and learning rather than other people. Fortunately I ran into some people at university who slowly dragged me out of myself. And, eventually, I met a girl who tore apart my world and helped me rebuild it (although, maybe she didn't realise at the time, I'd got so good at hiding everything away).
One particular idiot at school loved to taunt me, hold my upside down by my ankles. One day I snapped, and as he ran at me I picked up a chair and swung it. So. Much. Trouble. I was very nearly expelled... The same guy was a consummate bully, big, loud and evil to anyone weaker than him. There was another kid in our class, a bit large but it was more muscle than fat. He was lovely, quiet and very very odd (I think he came from a bad family). One day the bully was shaking down some younger kids in the playground and, I remember this vividly, this guy just decided enough was enough. He calmly walked across the playground and threw bully against the wall. Pounded him in the face a few times and told him to stop. It worked, so so well (he was excluded of course, but there you go...), and we rarely suffered again.
What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence?
I am certain that school ripped up several years of my life, and still adversely affects me to this day. But what can we do? Kids will be kids, eh?
One thing we can do is provide more and better societal support for families/parents. My older son was usually the smallest kid in class. He tended to attract bullies. In one case, I learned a little about the situation. The bully's parents were divorcing and he was apparently going through hell at home. Bullies are most likely a product of a negative social environment themselves and coping as best they can.
The other thing we can do is raise kids with respect and good boundaries from the start. Although my son attracted bullies, he did not suffer unduly. He knew how to cope effectively. I was molested and raped as a child. As a parent, I enforced a strong policy of respecting boundaries. That empowered him to take action early with bullies and not tolerate small offenses and the inevitable escalation. Bullying and molesting work much the same way: The predator starts small and escalates. The most effective measures stop it early. Most approaches fail because they do not identify the problem or try to address it until it has already gone too far.
I have previously written about the policy I had at home which empowered him to deal effectively with bullies: http://www.kidslikemine.com/2012/06/13/an-invisible-shield-h...
The other thing we can do is raise kids with respect and good boundaries from the start. Although my son attracted bullies, he did not suffer unduly. He knew how to cope effectively. I was molested and raped as a child. As a parent, I enforced a strong policy of respecting boundaries. That empowered him to take action early with bullies and not tolerate small offenses and the inevitable escalation. Bullying and molesting work much the same way: The predator starts small and escalates. The most effective measures stop it early. Most approaches fail because they do not identify the problem or try to address it until it has already gone too far.
I have previously written about the policy I had at home which empowered him to deal effectively with bullies: http://www.kidslikemine.com/2012/06/13/an-invisible-shield-h...
Trying to up vote you, but "User mismatch"? I'll take you're advice to heart.
Hope you don't mind me copying some of your advice here:
"They know if someone is disrespecting them, that is a huge red flag and the person should not be trusted because they are likely some form of social predator, whether sexual or otherwise. [b]They do not go along to get along.[/b] They do not get led merrily down some slippery slope.
...The vast majority of the time, child molesters are someone the child knows and trusts, someone who has made an effort to get close and push the boundaries of what the child would accept. My sons have basically a zero tolerance policy for boundary violation, thus they were virtually immune to that type of predation."
Hope you don't mind me copying some of your advice here:
"They know if someone is disrespecting them, that is a huge red flag and the person should not be trusted because they are likely some form of social predator, whether sexual or otherwise. [b]They do not go along to get along.[/b] They do not get led merrily down some slippery slope.
...The vast majority of the time, child molesters are someone the child knows and trusts, someone who has made an effort to get close and push the boundaries of what the child would accept. My sons have basically a zero tolerance policy for boundary violation, thus they were virtually immune to that type of predation."
No, I don't mind at all. Thank you.
I'm trying to educate my little girl in standing up for herself. The thing is she is kind and considerate, even to bullies. She's doing judo now and when she's 7 she wants to do kids-Krav Maga. I hope that helps her understand she is not powerless. (Krav Maga for kids is also about understanding bullies and situations).
Please do not mistake kind and considerate for powerless. One of my favorite stories is of a woman who decided to walk out on a class about "empowerment" rather than learn to yell at people. One of the other students said "God, what a bitch" as she quietly left rather than take her turn dutifully berating people.
True words and good example. It took courage to step up and walk out of the group.
I'm trying to communicate to her she is definitely not powerless. I used the example of a cat: Not very big or as powerful as a dog, but you still wouldn't pick it up and mess with it. She doesn't have to be as strong as the bullies, as long as they know she won't tolerate any (physical) abuse.
I'm trying to communicate to her she is definitely not powerless. I used the example of a cat: Not very big or as powerful as a dog, but you still wouldn't pick it up and mess with it. She doesn't have to be as strong as the bullies, as long as they know she won't tolerate any (physical) abuse.
My oldest didn't suffer unduly at school, but was beat up for a time, unbeknownst to me, by his younger brother. When I found out, he told me he did not defend himself because he knew he would get in trouble. I told him I had never and would never hurt him the way his brother had and he needed to defend himself even if he was grounded for it, that not defending himself was worse than anything I would ever do to him.
Teach your daughter she does not need your approval. Teach her to make her own decisions, even if sometimes other people don't like it. Help her figure out how to make good judgement calls in the face of difficult circumstances. Give her opportunities to make real choices and back them even if you do not like them. Let her know you don't like all of her choices but you accept them and respect her right to make them. Do not make her dependent on being liked and approved for everything she does.
Teach your daughter she does not need your approval. Teach her to make her own decisions, even if sometimes other people don't like it. Help her figure out how to make good judgement calls in the face of difficult circumstances. Give her opportunities to make real choices and back them even if you do not like them. Let her know you don't like all of her choices but you accept them and respect her right to make them. Do not make her dependent on being liked and approved for everything she does.
Thumbs up!
That was a good blog post. I largely have the same policy with my daughters, but your post inspires me to consider applying it more strictly. Thanks.
I'm really glad to hear that.
One thing I am never, ever, going to tell my kids is the stupid "sticks and stones" rhyme. That's just to make you feel better, not them.
I agree. Part of the problem is that adults tend to hold kids to a much different standard than they hold themselves. For instance, as an adult, if I'm working in a company where verbal bullying and harassment is a problem, and HR does nothing to address the situation, then I'll just give my two-week notice and move on to another company. Kids on the other hand don't have the option of giving their two-week notice and moving on to another school because of a 'hostile work environment'.
How many adults do you think would stick around at a company if they had to put up with the level of violence and harassment we subject our kids to in schools? And if the only response they got back from management and HR was a "sticks and stones" speech? Forget about it! Which highlights another difference- it's also in a company's own self interest to address these issues seriously, because if they don't, it's gonna effect their bottom line when good employees start leaving. But, what motivation do schools really have- it's not as if their "employees" (students) get to quit if they don't like the way they are being treated.
What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence?
My son is only two and a half right now. When he gets older my advice to him will be to first go through all of the proper channels in case bullying comes up. Give the system a chance to work, and get some documentation that you did so. And if it does work great. And if it doesn't, a right-cross to the bully's nose is what worked for me when I was a kid. Will this stop the bully from picking on people? Probably not - but it will likely make him stop picking on you. He'll move on to the next victim - one who won't fight back.
I agree. Part of the problem is that adults tend to hold kids to a much different standard than they hold themselves. For instance, as an adult, if I'm working in a company where verbal bullying and harassment is a problem, and HR does nothing to address the situation, then I'll just give my two-week notice and move on to another company. Kids on the other hand don't have the option of giving their two-week notice and moving on to another school because of a 'hostile work environment'.
How many adults do you think would stick around at a company if they had to put up with the level of violence and harassment we subject our kids to in schools? And if the only response they got back from management and HR was a "sticks and stones" speech? Forget about it! Which highlights another difference- it's also in a company's own self interest to address these issues seriously, because if they don't, it's gonna effect their bottom line when good employees start leaving. But, what motivation do schools really have- it's not as if their "employees" (students) get to quit if they don't like the way they are being treated.
What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence?
My son is only two and a half right now. When he gets older my advice to him will be to first go through all of the proper channels in case bullying comes up. Give the system a chance to work, and get some documentation that you did so. And if it does work great. And if it doesn't, a right-cross to the bully's nose is what worked for me when I was a kid. Will this stop the bully from picking on people? Probably not - but it will likely make him stop picking on you. He'll move on to the next victim - one who won't fight back.
> My son is only two and a half right now. When he gets older my advice to him will be to first go through all of the proper channels in case bullying comes up. Give the system a chance to work, and get some documentation that you did so. And if it does work great.
You are forgetting the schoolyard code. You never go to the appropriate channels. Ever. That is one of the worst things a kid can do to themselves.
The right response to physical bullying is to stand up for yourself. It's one of the most important lessons a person can learn - how and when to stand up for themselves.
I was bullied a lot in primary school, but I dealt with it and as much as bullies liked picking on me, they also knew going too far would hurt. A lot.
You are forgetting the schoolyard code. You never go to the appropriate channels. Ever. That is one of the worst things a kid can do to themselves.
The right response to physical bullying is to stand up for yourself. It's one of the most important lessons a person can learn - how and when to stand up for themselves.
I was bullied a lot in primary school, but I dealt with it and as much as bullies liked picking on me, they also knew going too far would hurt. A lot.
This is absolutely correct. I remember all too well when my graphing calculator was stolen from me during a movie in religion class (high school freshman year, catholic all boys school). I was socially inept and naturally, the first thing I did was tell the teacher. He asked the class who had taken it and waited a few minutes. When no one said anything, he said something like "Well, I can't keep them from their next class."
A few weeks later, a guy I knew had his stolen in English class, but he got it back by standing by the door at the end of class and asking people individually who had taken it as the other students left.
And I remember how in the months and years after that, if tricks were played on me in class, the kids would laugh at me and the teachers would stand at the front looking lost and doing nothing. Going through the proper channels doesn't do shit.
A few weeks later, a guy I knew had his stolen in English class, but he got it back by standing by the door at the end of class and asking people individually who had taken it as the other students left.
And I remember how in the months and years after that, if tricks were played on me in class, the kids would laugh at me and the teachers would stand at the front looking lost and doing nothing. Going through the proper channels doesn't do shit.
Physical violence never helps. You'll just get in trouble for attacking them.
Perhaps it's different now than it was 15 years ago, but no you wouldn't. Well, unless you properly damage someone ...
... but even then, they will stick to the code and you're both best palls in the principal's office and nothing happened. Any witness they ask will also support the two of you just playing and something silly happening by accident.
The only people in school who never get any respect, in my experience at least, are the ones who snitch, or generally side with the adults.
... but even then, they will stick to the code and you're both best palls in the principal's office and nothing happened. Any witness they ask will also support the two of you just playing and something silly happening by accident.
The only people in school who never get any respect, in my experience at least, are the ones who snitch, or generally side with the adults.
I can assure you that the system won't work against bullying -- oh there will be a lot of talk, maybe even with his parents - but of all the people (and that has been a lot) I know who have been bullied over the years only fighting back works.
And you better do it as soon as possible, before he does too much psychological damage on you.
And you better do it as soon as possible, before he does too much psychological damage on you.
My son is 2,5 now, too. I definitely plan to let him get some martial arts training before starting school. Not sure what age would be good, but I suppose 4 at the latest (maybe sooner).
It seems like a good basic skill to have in life...
And also, running - in most fight situations, running is probably the best option.
It seems like a good basic skill to have in life...
And also, running - in most fight situations, running is probably the best option.
> What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence?
It teaches me, at least, that bullies get away with what they do because they don't get reprimanded enough. Physical pain is still the best thing to associate with negative or undesirable behavior.
I see a distinct trend when it comes to bullying:
1. Kid gets bullied 2. Kid snaps, stands up for himself, beats up bully 3. Kid does not get bullied anymore
I don't think physical violence is inherently wrong. Excess and systematic violence - as employed by a certain category of bullies - is, but some pain to associate bad behavior with is, I think, a critical part of upbringing and steering behavior.
On systematic physical abuse, this is what happens when you get away with it. See also comment #2 (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5284818); it stopped the moment the bullied stood up for himself and showed the bully, via a serving of physical violence, that his behavior is unacceptable and not without consequence.
Spoiled kids that misbehave at school often are exemplary students at school, simply because teachers are able to get them to realize their behavior is unacceptable. That 'toggle' should also be done to bullies though, and I for one can't understand why not more is done about it in schools besides the rather static and easily ignored 'awareness' lessons.
On systematic physical abuse, this is what happens when you get away with it. See also comment #2 (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5284818); it stopped the moment the bullied stood up for himself and showed the bully, via a serving of physical violence, that his behavior is unacceptable and not without consequence.
Spoiled kids that misbehave at school often are exemplary students at school, simply because teachers are able to get them to realize their behavior is unacceptable. That 'toggle' should also be done to bullies though, and I for one can't understand why not more is done about it in schools besides the rather static and easily ignored 'awareness' lessons.
Aren't all justice systems ultimately based on the threat of violence from the state?
Yes - one of the central tenets of the rule of law is that the state has monopoly on violence, which is enforced by the police and the courts.
But in school thats not true. The bully has the monopoly on violence, which is enforced by actually committing said violence.
The bully has a de facto monopoly because no higher power is willing to exercise theirs.
But what can we do? Kids will be kids, eh?
End age based classes would be a good start.
End age based classes would be a good start.
And mandatory attendance. You can't force someone to learn when they don't want to. Stop treating schools like prisons and the attendees will stop acting like inmates.
School is a combination of daycare and training.
We make it mandatory because otherwise the kids of the disadvantaged, the uneducated or the just-plain-disorganised wouldn't get a decent start in life. It also allows more people to work - someone else is looking after the kids.
There's some argument to be had about what age it should be mandatory until, sure, but mandatory schooling is most definitely a good thing for society.
We make it mandatory because otherwise the kids of the disadvantaged, the uneducated or the just-plain-disorganised wouldn't get a decent start in life. It also allows more people to work - someone else is looking after the kids.
There's some argument to be had about what age it should be mandatory until, sure, but mandatory schooling is most definitely a good thing for society.
Mandatory schooling is more about keeping people OUT of the job market than it is putting people INTO it. If schools were about training, they'd look more like universities (and if universities were about advanced training, they'd look more like business environments).
How many kids study to pass the test? How many teachers teach to get the kids to pass the test? And thereafter they forget everything. I see grown-ass adults who can't calculate a simple 20% tip on paper, and more who can't do it in their heads, and that's an EASY one. People, working in industry, who don't know that the US has 50 states. I've seen programmers with computer science degrees counting on their fingers to add numbers.
Again, you can't teach something to someone who doesn't want to learn, and you can't prevent someone from learning who does want to. Schools get the credit for education, but they're just present. The mandatory aspect did nothing.
How many kids study to pass the test? How many teachers teach to get the kids to pass the test? And thereafter they forget everything. I see grown-ass adults who can't calculate a simple 20% tip on paper, and more who can't do it in their heads, and that's an EASY one. People, working in industry, who don't know that the US has 50 states. I've seen programmers with computer science degrees counting on their fingers to add numbers.
Again, you can't teach something to someone who doesn't want to learn, and you can't prevent someone from learning who does want to. Schools get the credit for education, but they're just present. The mandatory aspect did nothing.
"you can't teach something to someone who doesn't want to learn"
Pretty sure you can, when they're kids. Repeated exposure at the very least.
I'm not going to address the rest of your comment, I disagree utterly with pretty much everything you've said there.
Pretty sure you can, when they're kids. Repeated exposure at the very least.
I'm not going to address the rest of your comment, I disagree utterly with pretty much everything you've said there.
> We make it mandatory because otherwise the kids of the disadvantaged, the uneducated or the just-plain-disorganised wouldn't get a decent start in life.
For most of the "disadvantaged, the uneducated or the just-plain-disorganised", as you put it, mandatory school attendance does nothing to solve their problems anyway, as the people you are thinking of have many systemic things running against them in addition any personal issues in their lives.
> There's some argument to be had about what age it should be mandatory until, sure, but mandatory schooling is most definitely a good thing for society.
Mandatory school isn't the same thing as doing something positive for communities. Some communities will find the policy beneficial, others will find it destructive (esp. when some kids are forced into school systems are that literal prisons, complete with metal detectors, cell phone lockers you pay out of pocket for, and frequent searches of all student belongings).
For most of the "disadvantaged, the uneducated or the just-plain-disorganised", as you put it, mandatory school attendance does nothing to solve their problems anyway, as the people you are thinking of have many systemic things running against them in addition any personal issues in their lives.
> There's some argument to be had about what age it should be mandatory until, sure, but mandatory schooling is most definitely a good thing for society.
Mandatory school isn't the same thing as doing something positive for communities. Some communities will find the policy beneficial, others will find it destructive (esp. when some kids are forced into school systems are that literal prisons, complete with metal detectors, cell phone lockers you pay out of pocket for, and frequent searches of all student belongings).
"mandatory school attendance does nothing to solve their problems anyway"
I disagree that it does nothing. Some people still get the opportunity to better themselves through education, even if it doesn't help everyone.
Schools becoming prisons is a weird US phenomenon, I think you have societal issues to tackle that are much bigger than schooling.
And it's still better to have kids given access to education under those circumstances than not at all (and without it being mandatory they would not have access. No, they wouldn't)
I disagree that it does nothing. Some people still get the opportunity to better themselves through education, even if it doesn't help everyone.
Schools becoming prisons is a weird US phenomenon, I think you have societal issues to tackle that are much bigger than schooling.
And it's still better to have kids given access to education under those circumstances than not at all (and without it being mandatory they would not have access. No, they wouldn't)
so "we" have to provide mandatory schooling and a value judgement on what constitutes the "correct" schooling, but "you" have to deal with societal issues.
"we" in most western countries do tend to provide schooling to our children and make it mandatory
"you" in America seem to have some extra problems in this area, which I still don't think overshadows the benefits
Yes, problem?
"you" in America seem to have some extra problems in this area, which I still don't think overshadows the benefits
Yes, problem?
> mandatory schooling is most definitely a good thing for society.
[citation needed]
...and on the other hand putting smart kids _willing_ to learn in an uninspiring and oppressive environment. (Bad for their learning and devastating for their still developing personality.)
IMHO it's hard to find a worse crime against natural curiosity and willingness than _forcing_ people to do something.
[citation needed]
...and on the other hand putting smart kids _willing_ to learn in an uninspiring and oppressive environment. (Bad for their learning and devastating for their still developing personality.)
IMHO it's hard to find a worse crime against natural curiosity and willingness than _forcing_ people to do something.
It's a good thing for Children who want to learn, but who's parents want to send them to the mines instead.
Smart kids willing to learn - how do they know?
How do we pick out these smart kids and make sure they get education? Even if they're not from good backgrounds? How do we get these smart kids out of their crappy homes and make sure somebody teaches them something, anything, unless it's mandatory?
YOU may have been perfect, motivated, willing to learn, and may have been given the opportunity to learn even if it wasn't mandatory. Many others would not, many parents wouldn't bother.
YOU may have been perfect, motivated, willing to learn, and may have been given the opportunity to learn even if it wasn't mandatory. Many others would not, many parents wouldn't bother.
It was very noticeable to me, by second grade, who was there to learn and who was just there because they were forced to wake up and walk to a bus stop in the morning. While I was lucky enough to be put into some specialty classes based on previous testing I'd done, the majority of my day was still spent sitting next to kids who were literally drying glue in their desks, pouring ink into it to color it and eating it once it dried.
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with those kids, they just need a different direction and a little more support.
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with those kids, they just need a different direction and a little more support.
Can't disagree with that. But at that age some of the 'forced to wake up and walk to the bus-stop' kids still have a long way to grow and change.
I don't know the system in the US very well. Kids can go to different sorts of colleges post-16 here in the UK, or could (until recently, this may have changed) opt out at that age and enter the workforce.
I don't know the system in the US very well. Kids can go to different sorts of colleges post-16 here in the UK, or could (until recently, this may have changed) opt out at that age and enter the workforce.
Just providing a good environment for learning (teachers explaining things, eager to answer question).
For ones wanting to learn, just don't force them to do so. OK, is someone is not much willing to learn - well, then it may be good to force to do so. But don't force everyone because some need it.
(It seems that forcing people to learn is very inefficient. And I think for that reason many times school are places to socialize, bully and drink doing not much work that it is necessary to survive... and not much places actually good for learning anything.)
For ones wanting to learn, just don't force them to do so. OK, is someone is not much willing to learn - well, then it may be good to force to do so. But don't force everyone because some need it.
(It seems that forcing people to learn is very inefficient. And I think for that reason many times school are places to socialize, bully and drink doing not much work that it is necessary to survive... and not much places actually good for learning anything.)
Without 'forcing' kids to school, how do we find the ones that supposedly need it?
And how do we get kids who could use it, but from backgrounds that wouldn't bother to educate them at all, into the system?
Mandatory education is a good thing.
And how do we get kids who could use it, but from backgrounds that wouldn't bother to educate them at all, into the system?
Mandatory education is a good thing.
Forcing all kids to go to school and forcing all kids to learn are two different things.
As you know, daycare (and, say, crime and accident prevention), training, and cultural/national upbringing are different things, and they work differently, often with contradicting goals and methodologies. Currently we tend to treat "education" as a one thing, but in isn't.
I am all for all kids going to school (unless one can provide a better education), otherwise there would be a disaster of crime and poverty, much alike the one during the industrial revolution. However, what happens inside is extremely far from things which "make sense" both for them, and the society.
As you know, daycare (and, say, crime and accident prevention), training, and cultural/national upbringing are different things, and they work differently, often with contradicting goals and methodologies. Currently we tend to treat "education" as a one thing, but in isn't.
I am all for all kids going to school (unless one can provide a better education), otherwise there would be a disaster of crime and poverty, much alike the one during the industrial revolution. However, what happens inside is extremely far from things which "make sense" both for them, and the society.
I'm not saying there's not vast room for improvement here!
I just don't think that abolishing mandatory education/training/socialisation/what-the-hell-ever is a good idea, and it seems you don't either :)
I just don't think that abolishing mandatory education/training/socialisation/what-the-hell-ever is a good idea, and it seems you don't either :)
I completely agree that age-based classes is stupid. But what's the alternative?
The idea of classifying 5 year old kids based on any kind of factor scares the hell out of me.
The idea of classifying 5 year old kids based on any kind of factor scares the hell out of me.
Erm, what scares you about ability-based classes? The single strongest motivator for me to do well at school was to get into the top set which was free from bullies.
The problem with ability based groupings across age groups is that doesn't take into account learning velocity, ie the speed at which people learn new things. For example, a second grader that is at a fourth grade math level is likely to learn much faster than a fifth grader at a fourth grade math level. And you don't want to put advanced 8 year olds in a class with slow 11 year olds. That in itself is an invitation to bullying.
Ability based learning within age groups makes perfect sense, but assumes a sample size large enough to make meaningful groupings at the high and low ends.
Ability based learning within age groups makes perfect sense, but assumes a sample size large enough to make meaningful groupings at the high and low ends.
The problem is the classroom environment itself. The lecture format is an antiquated relic. We don't ever do the lecture format again once we leave school, which I think is pretty good evidence that it's garbage.
You might submit conferences as a counterexample, but I would submit them in favor of my argument.
You might submit conferences as a counterexample, but I would submit them in favor of my argument.
I firmly agree with you that classroom lectures are garbage. We homeschool our children. I'm simply making the point that, at least among younger children, age based classes are preferable to skill-based classes.
A preferable alternative in my mind would be a classroom where ALL work is done independently. The teacher then calls each student to their desk individually to see what they have learned and what they need help with. They can then spend 10-15 minutes individually with each student per day. Fast students can get pushed ahead and slow students can get the help they need instead of being forced along with the rest of the class.
A preferable alternative in my mind would be a classroom where ALL work is done independently. The teacher then calls each student to their desk individually to see what they have learned and what they need help with. They can then spend 10-15 minutes individually with each student per day. Fast students can get pushed ahead and slow students can get the help they need instead of being forced along with the rest of the class.
Actually, the argument for skill-based education _is_ that learning speeds are different.
So for one it takes 6 months to learn something, for another - 3 years. And in such systems it's fine - you got promoted because you have learnt something, not just because you got one year older (and haven't failed utterly).
And again, for the same "level" of subject there can be two speeds - so no risk of smart 8 yo kids in the same class with slow 11 yo.
So for one it takes 6 months to learn something, for another - 3 years. And in such systems it's fine - you got promoted because you have learnt something, not just because you got one year older (and haven't failed utterly).
And again, for the same "level" of subject there can be two speeds - so no risk of smart 8 yo kids in the same class with slow 11 yo.
I think its pretty common that when students are divided by "ability", especially later on in middle or high school, it can weigh pretty heavily on the students in the "lower ability" classes. Its essentially saying "we don't expect much but you need to be here."
This system works out very well for bright, academically inclined students, sure. But it sets a structure of expectations that don't motivate what could possibly be great talent, but we wouldn't know because they didn't bubble in the right answer.
This system works out very well for bright, academically inclined students, sure. But it sets a structure of expectations that don't motivate what could possibly be great talent, but we wouldn't know because they didn't bubble in the right answer.
>Erm, what scares you about ability-based classes?
The fascist premise of "let's separate the most able from the riff-raff".
As if society should be a hierarchical pyramid of top dogs and underdogs.
The fascist premise of "let's separate the most able from the riff-raff".
As if society should be a hierarchical pyramid of top dogs and underdogs.
Me too. Until my family moved to an area, the schools in which didn't recognize ability as an appropriate differentiator. It was not good times for me.
This doesn't mean that ability as a differentiator is bad--I think that it's a great idea. What it does mean is that consistency is absolutely crucial when such an idea is implemented; I was in an environment where excellence was encouraged, and that led to a lot of self-motivation. Not all children are going to be in the same situation, and that could be disasterous.
"The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin tackles the concept of the environment which best facilitates learning and personal growth, and touches on the idea of ability-based classes as well. It's a great read for anyone interested in such.
This doesn't mean that ability as a differentiator is bad--I think that it's a great idea. What it does mean is that consistency is absolutely crucial when such an idea is implemented; I was in an environment where excellence was encouraged, and that led to a lot of self-motivation. Not all children are going to be in the same situation, and that could be disasterous.
"The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin tackles the concept of the environment which best facilitates learning and personal growth, and touches on the idea of ability-based classes as well. It's a great read for anyone interested in such.
The idea that bullies are never academically talented is a false dichotomy. The idea that bullies only attack "smart," kids is ludicrous. Thus, ability-based classes would not end bullying in any way.
I would say both that how "ability" is measured, as well as that a 5-year-old's ability is nowhere near an indicator of their future ability.
I doubt anyone could argue against things like AP classes, etc. in high school, but 5-year-olds?
I doubt anyone could argue against things like AP classes, etc. in high school, but 5-year-olds?
Who's saying we want to use a 5-year-old's ability as an indicator of future ability? We want to use a 5-year-old's ability as an indicator of their current ability. I'd say we'll look at their ability again when they're six, but really the ideal is near-continuous evaluation.
Don't just think about slightly tweaking the system we have today. Think about the system after it finally embraces computers as a transformative force, instead of a very silly expensive way to issue multiple choice tests. We're going to free up teachers to spend their time on the stuff that actually requires a human, instead of bogging them down with so much automateable work that they end up hardly any more effective than a machine, what a surprise.
Don't just think about slightly tweaking the system we have today. Think about the system after it finally embraces computers as a transformative force, instead of a very silly expensive way to issue multiple choice tests. We're going to free up teachers to spend their time on the stuff that actually requires a human, instead of bogging them down with so much automateable work that they end up hardly any more effective than a machine, what a surprise.
Indeed. Education is only one part of the personal development you get at school. Socialising/communicating with your peers is another key thing.
Which is why so many "proteges" tend to burn out, I think, or have emotional problems as they age - simply for lacking that time to develop with their peers.
Which is why so many "proteges" tend to burn out, I think, or have emotional problems as they age - simply for lacking that time to develop with their peers.
It's not about a future ability. It's about the current ability of the 5-year old person. Next year she will be retested and reassessed.
Because getting bullied from kids 2-3 years old would be so much better?
> Kids will be kids, eh?
Alongside the "sticks and stones rhyme" this sentence makes me tear my hair our every time I hear it. Kids who bully are thugs, not kids. My brother, he's 13, he's a kid, not a thug. He skateboards and hurts himself, plays computer games and does his homework. That is a kid.
I feel or you too buddy. That whole sentence gets me really irate.
Alongside the "sticks and stones rhyme" this sentence makes me tear my hair our every time I hear it. Kids who bully are thugs, not kids. My brother, he's 13, he's a kid, not a thug. He skateboards and hurts himself, plays computer games and does his homework. That is a kid.
I feel or you too buddy. That whole sentence gets me really irate.
The kid with a myth of a father, and a mother who trades out her allotted food-stamps for drug money is a thug? Bullies aren't born, they're created; I have not once met a bully who had a perfect life before they decided to get angry and take it out on their peers, because, well, they don't know any better. So, yes, kids will be kids.
When I was bullied as a child, several of the bullies were children of lawyers and doctors, in well-to-do families. They were dressed well and clearly did not want for anything. It's possible that they were having some sorts of problems at home, but they certainly were not from a family such as you've described. Also, anecdotes are not data (for either of us)
Even then, if I accept "kids will be kids", it should be (and certainly is not) the purpose of a school to teach children to grow from kids to well-behaved adults. You do not teach them this by ignoring the behavior when they bully, and then punishing the bullied when they inevitably decide to strike back.
The Lord of the Flies atmosphere that exists in public schools is appalling, and we should not try to wave it off. It is clearly not "working as intended".
Even then, if I accept "kids will be kids", it should be (and certainly is not) the purpose of a school to teach children to grow from kids to well-behaved adults. You do not teach them this by ignoring the behavior when they bully, and then punishing the bullied when they inevitably decide to strike back.
The Lord of the Flies atmosphere that exists in public schools is appalling, and we should not try to wave it off. It is clearly not "working as intended".
They didn't want for anything materially. Studies show that upperclass neighborhoods have as much neglect and drug addiction as the ghetto. As they say: The problem with winning the rat race is that you are still a rat.
Making it your goal to be the lord in a lord of the flies environment is like that. Good families that produce healthy kids are generally solidly middle class: They work hard enough to provide basic essentials, not so hard as to value work or money over family. Current trends make it increasingly difficult for anyone to arrange that. We increasingly make people choose between family and money. We didn't always do that.
Making it your goal to be the lord in a lord of the flies environment is like that. Good families that produce healthy kids are generally solidly middle class: They work hard enough to provide basic essentials, not so hard as to value work or money over family. Current trends make it increasingly difficult for anyone to arrange that. We increasingly make people choose between family and money. We didn't always do that.
OK, but what's your point? So the bully has a hard life. OK, yes, that's true, so sad (really, no sarcasm), but what do you plan on doing about it?
Your argument often ends up implicitly turning into "Therefore, we shouldn't punish the bully, it's not his fault. Therefore, I guess, well, we'll do nothing." You've cognitively narrowed your focus to just the bully and forgotten everyone else who is getting bullied.
That's not goodness or justice, that's terrible. A very common form of terribleness that some people seem very inclined to, but I don't think it's ever just to get so caught up in the hard life of a bully or criminal that you forget entirely about the victims of the bully or criminal. I don't know what's so cognitively tempting about this point of view, but resist it.
To be clear, I'm not trying to secretly advocate for or justify any particular solution either. But there must be some way to contain the bullying; there's no value to anyone in letting one bad seed's poison spread.
Your argument often ends up implicitly turning into "Therefore, we shouldn't punish the bully, it's not his fault. Therefore, I guess, well, we'll do nothing." You've cognitively narrowed your focus to just the bully and forgotten everyone else who is getting bullied.
That's not goodness or justice, that's terrible. A very common form of terribleness that some people seem very inclined to, but I don't think it's ever just to get so caught up in the hard life of a bully or criminal that you forget entirely about the victims of the bully or criminal. I don't know what's so cognitively tempting about this point of view, but resist it.
To be clear, I'm not trying to secretly advocate for or justify any particular solution either. But there must be some way to contain the bullying; there's no value to anyone in letting one bad seed's poison spread.
> OK, but what's your point? So the bully has a hard life. OK, yes, that's true, so sad (really, no sarcasm), but what do you plan on doing about it?
Eliminate the social problems that make said person's life hard in the first place. Reduce poverty, end racist laws and law enforcement, and make it possible for individuals and communities to have self determination rather than being undermined by private and public institutions.
Eliminate the social problems that make said person's life hard in the first place. Reduce poverty, end racist laws and law enforcement, and make it possible for individuals and communities to have self determination rather than being undermined by private and public institutions.
> Reduce poverty, end racist laws and law enforcement, and make it possible for individuals and communities to have self determination rather than being undermined by private and public institutions.
Welcome to the twenty-fourth century. My name is Jean-Luc Picard and I'm captain of the starship ``Enterprise''...
Welcome to the twenty-fourth century. My name is Jean-Luc Picard and I'm captain of the starship ``Enterprise''...
> Welcome to the twenty-fourth century.
If we (as a human kind) want to get there, we'd better get to fixing those problems; there's still a lot of work to do.
If we (as a human kind) want to get there, we'd better get to fixing those problems; there's still a lot of work to do.
That's completely useless. Bullying is here now. It's not something that bad conditions are going to produce in 20 years if we don't do something. Your proposed solution is to let bullies just bully while we hopefully, someday, address some of the reasons why they exist, and I suppose, when that doesn't work, we continue to let the bullies bully then too. That's punting on the problem in a way even worse than the one I strawmanned in my post.
What are you going to propose now?
What are you going to propose now?
>OK, but what's your point? So the bully has a hard life. OK, yes, that's true, so sad (really, no sarcasm), but what do you plan on doing about it?
Oh, some kids get bullied at at school. Oh, the humanity.
Really, first world problems of the highest caliber...
Oh, some kids get bullied at at school. Oh, the humanity.
Really, first world problems of the highest caliber...
Congratulations, you're part of the problem.
I'm not even part of the country.
We don't have cliques, proms, or BS high school drama where I come from. We just get along. No mass shootings either.
We don't have cliques, proms, or BS high school drama where I come from. We just get along. No mass shootings either.
If you had a brain, you would understand what you actually wrote.
But since you don't the best we can do is downvote you.
But since you don't the best we can do is downvote you.
And if you had one, you would understood what I wrote.
This bulling thing is cultural. It doesn't happen everywhere, the same way mass shooting doesn't happen everywhere (and no, it's not because of no guns available).
And part of it is giving it too much attention. A lot of times it's not even bulling is merely normal behaviour in any team of people.
But since kids are taught that everybody is supposedly a "unique snowflake" and they must be greeted with roses and "ohhhs", they are devastated if they are not the most popular in school or are called a nickname or don't get the girls.
Meanwhile, in the real world, kids are struggling with extreme poverty, war, lack of water and food, etc. Not nicknames and not being invited to the prom.
This bulling thing is cultural. It doesn't happen everywhere, the same way mass shooting doesn't happen everywhere (and no, it's not because of no guns available).
And part of it is giving it too much attention. A lot of times it's not even bulling is merely normal behaviour in any team of people.
But since kids are taught that everybody is supposedly a "unique snowflake" and they must be greeted with roses and "ohhhs", they are devastated if they are not the most popular in school or are called a nickname or don't get the girls.
Meanwhile, in the real world, kids are struggling with extreme poverty, war, lack of water and food, etc. Not nicknames and not being invited to the prom.
I disagree here sorry.
There are kids who have everything except the love and recognition of their parents. This can have a detrimental effect on a childs life, not feeling loved but having everything. Money is not happiness.
There are kids who have everything except the love and recognition of their parents. This can have a detrimental effect on a childs life, not feeling loved but having everything. Money is not happiness.
I just used a stark example, you are correct, money isn't happiness. This is something a lot of people don't realize. So what is? In the case the answer to that question is out there, think about a child contemplating that. Can you expect a child to know how to deal with emotional pains at an early age? What are we putting on children if we expect that?
Where I live (Sweden), its common to move bullied kids to new schools, because its an political impossibility to do action against bullying kids while they still are attending school. It much easier to "ask" the parent of a bullied kid to move the kid to a new school. In the extreme edges, where clear physical evidence can be collected from several years of bullying, there is sometimes a court case. Those cases is always after the kid has left the school, several, often 10+ years later.
A problem is that physical evidence is extremely hard to collect from children. As the video show, kids do get bruised by accident, and when they fight, it rarely end up in obvious fighting type damage like an bruised eye or broken jaw. If one compare it to a brawl at a bar, school yard bullying do not have a bunch of reliable third-party witnesses (yes, drunk people at the bar is more trusted in this case).
However, what about Justice which one takes by violence? It might work sometimes, but I would warn about gangs. Kids like adults have a tendency to form groups. Groups get group mentality, which can get very ugly very fast. One has to be very fast, quick and lucky to survive going up against a bullying gang leader. Sticks and Stones hurt.
For the people who made this video, thank you. I hope this will remind people, and maybe get some tools invented to start combating bullying. Being a security interested person, I can think of several ideas but I am worried about which ones might actually have an effect and which ones will only make us feel like we are doing something. Cameras and microphones is popular in schools now, and each kid tend to have a smart-phone, and yet I not heard of a reduction in bullying. Small classes is an other solution proposed by people, but I have yet to see a case where that have made a difference. Even when a teacher has time to do something, they seems perplexed on how to deal with it. Maybe if tested tools and procedures is invented, small classes will start to have an effect on bullying.
A problem is that physical evidence is extremely hard to collect from children. As the video show, kids do get bruised by accident, and when they fight, it rarely end up in obvious fighting type damage like an bruised eye or broken jaw. If one compare it to a brawl at a bar, school yard bullying do not have a bunch of reliable third-party witnesses (yes, drunk people at the bar is more trusted in this case).
However, what about Justice which one takes by violence? It might work sometimes, but I would warn about gangs. Kids like adults have a tendency to form groups. Groups get group mentality, which can get very ugly very fast. One has to be very fast, quick and lucky to survive going up against a bullying gang leader. Sticks and Stones hurt.
For the people who made this video, thank you. I hope this will remind people, and maybe get some tools invented to start combating bullying. Being a security interested person, I can think of several ideas but I am worried about which ones might actually have an effect and which ones will only make us feel like we are doing something. Cameras and microphones is popular in schools now, and each kid tend to have a smart-phone, and yet I not heard of a reduction in bullying. Small classes is an other solution proposed by people, but I have yet to see a case where that have made a difference. Even when a teacher has time to do something, they seems perplexed on how to deal with it. Maybe if tested tools and procedures is invented, small classes will start to have an effect on bullying.
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I don't know. My best friend from growing up was not bullied in any way (we were homeschooled and he was the popular one in our knot), but some sociology class in college made him internalize the notion that "names really do hurt" and it eventually tore our friendship apart. He couldn't differentiate between good-natured ribbing and bullying. I knew this guy for 25 years and "names really do hurt" turned him into a dullard who couldn't hang out with the guys and have a drink.
There is no justice, life isn't fair and people aren't born equal. I hate to seem cynical but these are valuable life lessons for kids to learn to prepare them for real life.
What would you have liked the adults to do to solve the problem? What could they have done?
Not punish the kid defending himself with a chair?
Not punish the kid hitting back at someone who was bullying him?
Not punish the kid who beat up the bully?
It actually helps to have some idea of what's going on in the school yard, ask witnesses what was going on, and IF KIDS COMPLAIN ABOUT BULLYING DON'T TELL THEM TO GET OVER IT. "You're not making an effort to fit in" is blaming the victim. I'm not making the fucking effort to fit in because the other kids treat me like dirt. Why should I bother to try fitting in?
But yes, the adults could have looked at the situation and realised that the bully was getting their just deserts. Punishing the victim who has been pushed past the end of their tether is not helping anyone.
Not punish the kid hitting back at someone who was bullying him?
Not punish the kid who beat up the bully?
It actually helps to have some idea of what's going on in the school yard, ask witnesses what was going on, and IF KIDS COMPLAIN ABOUT BULLYING DON'T TELL THEM TO GET OVER IT. "You're not making an effort to fit in" is blaming the victim. I'm not making the fucking effort to fit in because the other kids treat me like dirt. Why should I bother to try fitting in?
But yes, the adults could have looked at the situation and realised that the bully was getting their just deserts. Punishing the victim who has been pushed past the end of their tether is not helping anyone.
Evidence. Bullies are very careful to cover their tracks, they know the limits of the system, verbal bullying is usually ignored as is physical intimidation. And then it's one kids word against the others + one kid holding a chair.
With the above, a reasonable adult, considering evidence, has no choice but to "arrest" the kid with the chair, since the other has done no wrong other than verbal + possible pushing.
The system needs fixing by making what the bully did prior to the event actionable by the adults so it wouldn't escalate to where it did. Cameras would help.
But then what do we do with the bully? Move him to another school and let the cycle repeat?
With the above, a reasonable adult, considering evidence, has no choice but to "arrest" the kid with the chair, since the other has done no wrong other than verbal + possible pushing.
The system needs fixing by making what the bully did prior to the event actionable by the adults so it wouldn't escalate to where it did. Cameras would help.
But then what do we do with the bully? Move him to another school and let the cycle repeat?
Ok, as a teacher you come into the classroom and the normally shy kid with glasses is standing there angrily over the popular, loud, boisterous kid who looks shocked. Do you really need to call NCIS? I don't think its unreasonable to suggest you know exactly whats going on here.
(hint: the shy kid probably did not suddenly decide right this moment to pop up and decide to fight for alpha status)
(hint: the shy kid probably did not suddenly decide right this moment to pop up and decide to fight for alpha status)
Yes, to you it is obvious, but not to the teacher. The teacher was her/himself the popular kid in school and cannot comprehend what shy even means. She/he doesn't see a bully and a kid who couldn't take it anymore, she/he sees a respectable well-adjusted upstanding kid well on her/his way to being a respectable well-adjusted successful adult and a psycho holding a chair.
That doesn't make sense. I was the kid with the chair; top of the class, got on really well with most of the teachers, mum was a school governor, history of being bullied...
The teacher(s) new exactly what had happened. The administration didn't, though, and it was them that threatened to suspend me.
They did account for the circumstances; they brought in the bullies parents and all of us sat around a table to discuss it. But he squirmed out of it ("so sorry! Only a bit of fun", etc.).
The problem is; it's only when the bullied person does something extreme that the bully gets into that situation. And it didn't happen often, so this particular individual had lots of "last warnings" and final promises to be nicer.
But no one followed up and punished him properly the next time.
Teachers are there to educate, they aren't equipped properly to deal with a point of justice/behaviour.
The teacher(s) new exactly what had happened. The administration didn't, though, and it was them that threatened to suspend me.
They did account for the circumstances; they brought in the bullies parents and all of us sat around a table to discuss it. But he squirmed out of it ("so sorry! Only a bit of fun", etc.).
The problem is; it's only when the bullied person does something extreme that the bully gets into that situation. And it didn't happen often, so this particular individual had lots of "last warnings" and final promises to be nicer.
But no one followed up and punished him properly the next time.
Teachers are there to educate, they aren't equipped properly to deal with a point of justice/behaviour.
> The teacher(s) new exactly what had happened. The administration didn't, though, and it was them that threatened to suspend me.
That looks like it is a significant part of the problem: the adults most likely to exercise good judgement on these matters (teachers) don't have the power to do so.
That looks like it is a significant part of the problem: the adults most likely to exercise good judgement on these matters (teachers) don't have the power to do so.
Expel the bullies, force them out of the system. The government has an obligation to educate children, it does not have an obligation to educate bullies. If your child is a bully then you, as a parent, need to fix that if you want them to be able to be educated.
That doesn't seem fair either to me. I mean, perhaps I am a sap, but I feel sorry for bullies as well. Usually what drives them is deep seated emotional problems of their own; and by pushing them out of the system all you do is create adult bullies, and probably offenders.
Bullies are in need of solutions too, but that is no excuse to let their problems spread out and have a huge impact on other kids and on society. The same thing is true of criminals. Most criminals (even up to rape and murder) don't start out as ordinary, well adjusted folks who one day wake up and go "huh, I'm bored, guess I'll go be bad", they lead troubled lives. They have been wronged by others and by society and sometimes they express that through theft, self-medication via drug use, violence, molestation, rape, murder, etc.
We have to triage the problem. First, prevent harm from occurring to others. Second, attempt rehabilitation.
Remember that bullies also create problems in other kids which can force them to act out. Force them to drop out and get into drug use. Force them to become bullies themselves, or thieves, etc.
We have to triage the problem. First, prevent harm from occurring to others. Second, attempt rehabilitation.
Remember that bullies also create problems in other kids which can force them to act out. Force them to drop out and get into drug use. Force them to become bullies themselves, or thieves, etc.
The system needs fixing by making what the bully did prior to the event actionable by the adults so it wouldn't escalate to where it did. Cameras would help.
At a school, the adults are the system, so I think my point still stands.
I've long wondered what would have fixed this... in the end the only solution I could come up with would be to segregate the consummate bullies. I'm sure smarter people could think of more adroit solutions.
At a school, the adults are the system, so I think my point still stands.
I've long wondered what would have fixed this... in the end the only solution I could come up with would be to segregate the consummate bullies. I'm sure smarter people could think of more adroit solutions.
I really like the english "he had seen it coming". Sometimes it would be best not punishing people that just fought back (even if they fought back with violence against non violent bullying).
Problem is though who has the right to decide if it was just or not. This sadly always leads to unjust sentences.
Problem is though who has the right to decide if it was just or not. This sadly always leads to unjust sentences.
Here's an idea- start holding adults to the exact same standards we hold kids, and then watch how fast policies change:
Co-worker makes racist remarks towards you: "sticks and stones" speech
Co-worker sexually harasses you: "sticks and stones" speech
Co-worker physically assaults you: "sticks and stones" speech, with added punishment if the victim defends himself
And in each case, tell the adult victim how they should be more empathetic to the bully's lot in life.
Co-worker makes racist remarks towards you: "sticks and stones" speech
Co-worker sexually harasses you: "sticks and stones" speech
Co-worker physically assaults you: "sticks and stones" speech, with added punishment if the victim defends himself
And in each case, tell the adult victim how they should be more empathetic to the bully's lot in life.
Very impressive animation and the way the youtube video is embedded to the site.
This is the youtube URL, btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY
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I think that Paul Graham's essay "Why Nerds Are Unpopular." hasn't aged a day.[0]
I sincerely doubt that anybody is going to stop bullying anywhere without addressing the root causes. And I doubt the root cause is that kids are inherently evil monsters.
[0]: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
I sincerely doubt that anybody is going to stop bullying anywhere without addressing the root causes. And I doubt the root cause is that kids are inherently evil monsters.
[0]: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
If you ever feel alone in this http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5270460
It looks like a reference to goatse.cx in the part about accepting yourself, at 5:58.
uh, all im seeing is a quote about some piece and it fades out until i move the mouse again...??
Yeah, same for me with Chrome. Irritating, isn't it. The site seems poorly designed. I can see a Flashblock icon in the top left so I know what's broken, but I can't click on the Flashblock icon to enable the content, as it won't take focus. Despite being interested in the topic I didn't dig deeper, so they lose a reader.
There should be a video in the background full screen, try with another browser.
The real problem is state-mandated detention centers for children. Bullying is a feature of the school system. Put kids in a healthy environment that leaves room for freedom and empowerment, and all of these kinds of problems would greatly diminish.
Kids bully each other because we bully them.
Kids bully each other because we bully them.
Going off on a tangent here, but do people who are good at sports often suffer long term bullying at school?
I wasn't bullied at school, IMHO (nothing physical, the odd bit of name calling.. which they got back ;-)) but it seemed as if people who were into sports avoided every hassle, including the sportier geeks who were in the football team, etc.
Looking back, I have to wonder if there's something about being active, being in teams, or the effect doing sports has on your body (language) that means you either fit in better, stand up for yourself more, etc. I certainly feel that way as an adult now trying to become more active. It changes how you hold yourself.
My daughter is now in all the social and sports clubs we can get in and which she enjoys. My parents never encouraged me into being active or joining clubs, but I have to wonder if I had been, maybe I'd be very different (not that I'm unhappy with my lot now :-)) and maybe my daughter could end up being one of the "popular kids" just by virtue of being active and socializing with her peers early.
I wasn't bullied at school, IMHO (nothing physical, the odd bit of name calling.. which they got back ;-)) but it seemed as if people who were into sports avoided every hassle, including the sportier geeks who were in the football team, etc.
Looking back, I have to wonder if there's something about being active, being in teams, or the effect doing sports has on your body (language) that means you either fit in better, stand up for yourself more, etc. I certainly feel that way as an adult now trying to become more active. It changes how you hold yourself.
My daughter is now in all the social and sports clubs we can get in and which she enjoys. My parents never encouraged me into being active or joining clubs, but I have to wonder if I had been, maybe I'd be very different (not that I'm unhappy with my lot now :-)) and maybe my daughter could end up being one of the "popular kids" just by virtue of being active and socializing with her peers early.
I think it might also have something to do with being a recognised part of a group who would certainly be capable of punishing the bully.
Interestingly, there's a young diver here in the UK called Tom Daley (got a medal at last year's Olympics). When the media frenzy about him kicked off a few years ago, he got bullied at school. However, diving is a pretty solitary activity and he certainly wouldn't have had a team with him to prevent this.
Interestingly, there's a young diver here in the UK called Tom Daley (got a medal at last year's Olympics). When the media frenzy about him kicked off a few years ago, he got bullied at school. However, diving is a pretty solitary activity and he certainly wouldn't have had a team with him to prevent this.
I think it may very well be the other way around. Example: I used to do sports. Then the bullies came. Then I stopped doing sports because that's where they were.
2nd this. But sports do help with confidence and self-esteem too.
Two thoughts:
I can recall the lightest wrestler on my high school wrestling team getting bullied by his teammates several times. I didn't do anything to help him.
I was one of those sporty geeks in high school, but I was completely unsporty in elementary school, and I was never significantly bullied. I suspect my "defense" was mostly being the biggest kid in the class.
I can recall the lightest wrestler on my high school wrestling team getting bullied by his teammates several times. I didn't do anything to help him.
I was one of those sporty geeks in high school, but I was completely unsporty in elementary school, and I was never significantly bullied. I suspect my "defense" was mostly being the biggest kid in the class.
I think the conundrum here is those good at sports.
When I played hockey, I certainly wasn't popular with my team, especially when the bullies were on it, but I never got picked on much since I was a good player, and I could give much more than I ever got. I was always pretty quiet, so the bullies never knew what to expect of me.
However, being a house league team, there were several players who got bullied, and they were always the fat kids, who couldn't skate as fast, or stand up for themselves.
And I think it's the same relationship everywhere, and on the comments already made. Bullies never pick on kids bigger than them, or that are necessarily unpopular. However, they will sniff out weakness and pick on the weak, no matter where they happen to be.
I was however, always curious at the root of bullying, since even in my adult life, I see many people who still cluster around making themselves feel better by laughing at stupidity of others (just not to their face), and scare myself, since I've caught myself doing the same thing. Sure we're certainly more civil about it, but to me it seems to be rooted in the same base nature, as a mechanism they're using to try and feel empowered.
When I played hockey, I certainly wasn't popular with my team, especially when the bullies were on it, but I never got picked on much since I was a good player, and I could give much more than I ever got. I was always pretty quiet, so the bullies never knew what to expect of me.
However, being a house league team, there were several players who got bullied, and they were always the fat kids, who couldn't skate as fast, or stand up for themselves.
And I think it's the same relationship everywhere, and on the comments already made. Bullies never pick on kids bigger than them, or that are necessarily unpopular. However, they will sniff out weakness and pick on the weak, no matter where they happen to be.
I was however, always curious at the root of bullying, since even in my adult life, I see many people who still cluster around making themselves feel better by laughing at stupidity of others (just not to their face), and scare myself, since I've caught myself doing the same thing. Sure we're certainly more civil about it, but to me it seems to be rooted in the same base nature, as a mechanism they're using to try and feel empowered.
We live in a country that is heavily optimized toward factory work. Designed to produce a citizenry which is made up primarily of compliant, obedient assembly line workers in an era where the dubious advantages that once had are no longer relevant. Our labor laws, our political systems, and especially our public educational system (which is heavily based on the Prussian model) have been built along these models. The impedance mismatch is becoming greater and greater over time, we would be wise to understand the root of the problem and work to fix it.
This is Shaun Koyczan, one of my favorite slam poet (he's from Canada)
I'd like to read an honest account from a former bully who matured into a fully functional adult. To this day I don't understand the motivation of terrorizing other kids. I've met some former bullies but it seems that they either don't remember or don't want to deal with understanding it themselves.
Not a bully, but a bullied person who is still forced to sometimes interact with his former bullies. In my case, these people are quite functional in society, and when confronted laugh it off - seeing it is one big joke that isn't to be taken too seriously.
It may be understandable that to this day, I honestly still feel my blood boil when bullying gets mentioned.
It may be understandable that to this day, I honestly still feel my blood boil when bullying gets mentioned.
> To this day I don't understand the motivation of terrorizing other kids.
Really?
Look at the popular culture around you, comedy movies, youtube videos, blogs all about bullying people (fail blog and all fail culture), look at the front page of reddit etc.
I understand that if you don't personally connected but you can see that people enjoy other people's failures and misery.
This kind of popular culture and the internet makes it even worse.
Really?
Look at the popular culture around you, comedy movies, youtube videos, blogs all about bullying people (fail blog and all fail culture), look at the front page of reddit etc.
I understand that if you don't personally connected but you can see that people enjoy other people's failures and misery.
This kind of popular culture and the internet makes it even worse.
> people enjoy other people's failures and misery
This is a very grim outlook on life. What I see in popular culture is—for the most part—people being clowns in order to draw attention. I also think that having laughs at the expense of someone else's misfortune is not at the same level as causing misfortune in order to get some laughs, completely different things.
This is a very grim outlook on life. What I see in popular culture is—for the most part—people being clowns in order to draw attention. I also think that having laughs at the expense of someone else's misfortune is not at the same level as causing misfortune in order to get some laughs, completely different things.
I think it's very finely done. I'm impressed by the quality of that animation and the voice is both great and touching in its tone.
I'd say part of the solution is explained in the animation itself: you don't have to feel this way if you're getting bullied.
Parents have a role to play. My parents always told me to not pay attention (I was the smallest kids in my class from 4 years old to 15 years old or so, so people would tease me all the time). And I didn't pay attention.
Then he talks in the animation about bearded girls: parents have to intervene here. I was a boy but when I started having a mustache, which looked silly in retrospect on the tiniest kid in the class, they offered me an electric razor. I hated that day the day it happened. But then I realized I had to shave.
Same for bearded girls: parents have to take her to do laser elimination of the beard. Common.
If parents have a fat kid, they should confiscate coke and sodas and force the kid to go exercice a bit. A daily run. Something. It was tennis and bycicling for me (not that I've ever been fat).
Sure bullying is lame. But acting like a victim is not ok.
I agree that fighting back is not always easy, but it's not always mandatory to physically fight back either. As someone else already commented here: if they insult you, you can fight back verbally (being smart makes it all too easy to be really mean in retaliation ; )
"Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent".
We're all past the age of getting bullied and we can understand that nobody can make us feel inferior without our consent. Now we have to remember to raise our kids properly, so that they never become victims.
I'd say part of the solution is explained in the animation itself: you don't have to feel this way if you're getting bullied.
Parents have a role to play. My parents always told me to not pay attention (I was the smallest kids in my class from 4 years old to 15 years old or so, so people would tease me all the time). And I didn't pay attention.
Then he talks in the animation about bearded girls: parents have to intervene here. I was a boy but when I started having a mustache, which looked silly in retrospect on the tiniest kid in the class, they offered me an electric razor. I hated that day the day it happened. But then I realized I had to shave.
Same for bearded girls: parents have to take her to do laser elimination of the beard. Common.
If parents have a fat kid, they should confiscate coke and sodas and force the kid to go exercice a bit. A daily run. Something. It was tennis and bycicling for me (not that I've ever been fat).
Sure bullying is lame. But acting like a victim is not ok.
I agree that fighting back is not always easy, but it's not always mandatory to physically fight back either. As someone else already commented here: if they insult you, you can fight back verbally (being smart makes it all too easy to be really mean in retaliation ; )
"Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent".
We're all past the age of getting bullied and we can understand that nobody can make us feel inferior without our consent. Now we have to remember to raise our kids properly, so that they never become victims.
No. I'm sure your intentions are fine, but this is not good advice.
We cannot keep perpetuating this idea that you have to fit in. That right there is one of the most harmful memes in our Western society today.
If a kid wants to use the razor to shave, that's fine. If a kid has a problem with obesity, yes, support that kid and help that kid find a better, healthier path.
But not in order to avoid oppression. Because it's better for his or her health. For her, or his, self esteem.
A person close to me was severely bullied when she moved to a new school. She was the only person with dark skin in a school of white Northern Europeans, at a time when there were racists in parliament and a serial killer was murdering persons of color.
What do you figure she would do to fit in?
It's the bullies that has to change. The silent bystanders. Us. We must say "Wow, you have beautiful facial hair". We must embrace diversity.
Not eradicate it.
We cannot keep perpetuating this idea that you have to fit in. That right there is one of the most harmful memes in our Western society today.
If a kid wants to use the razor to shave, that's fine. If a kid has a problem with obesity, yes, support that kid and help that kid find a better, healthier path.
But not in order to avoid oppression. Because it's better for his or her health. For her, or his, self esteem.
A person close to me was severely bullied when she moved to a new school. She was the only person with dark skin in a school of white Northern Europeans, at a time when there were racists in parliament and a serial killer was murdering persons of color.
What do you figure she would do to fit in?
It's the bullies that has to change. The silent bystanders. Us. We must say "Wow, you have beautiful facial hair". We must embrace diversity.
Not eradicate it.
This is bad advice.
Kids don't start out strong, they aren't magically born with all the skills they need to be an adult. And we understand this, which is why we have different norms for children than for adults. When someone has grown into adulthood they may finally have their shit together and they may have acquired enough self-confidence to be able to handle bullying. But kids are not that way. And though we should try to guide kids towards becoming more mature along the way to adulthood we should not expect and especially not require that they have the maturity of an adult just in order to live day to day.
Telling people not to become victims is often not helpful. It's good to be more self-reliant and self-assured. But that does in no way diminish the damage done by the perpetrators or their culpability for that damage.
Kids don't start out strong, they aren't magically born with all the skills they need to be an adult. And we understand this, which is why we have different norms for children than for adults. When someone has grown into adulthood they may finally have their shit together and they may have acquired enough self-confidence to be able to handle bullying. But kids are not that way. And though we should try to guide kids towards becoming more mature along the way to adulthood we should not expect and especially not require that they have the maturity of an adult just in order to live day to day.
Telling people not to become victims is often not helpful. It's good to be more self-reliant and self-assured. But that does in no way diminish the damage done by the perpetrators or their culpability for that damage.
> We're all past the age of getting bullied and we can
>understand that nobody can make us feel inferior without
>our consent. Now we have to remember to raise our kids
>properly, so that they never become victims.
I don't think there is an age limit on being bullied. And while nobody can make us feel a certain way, they can certainly create an environment where it's an uphill struggle to remain positive.
I don't think there is an age limit on being bullied. And while nobody can make us feel a certain way, they can certainly create an environment where it's an uphill struggle to remain positive.
Is it fair to hypothesize that a high proportion of people working in tech today were bullied and abused as children? Yet here we are today, as a community, still bullying, intimidating and harassing women who try to join our field. Something to think about as we recall the hurts that seared and traumatized us not so many years ago.
It's very easy for the abused to turn into abusers, hell I nearly did. It is what is making me so uncomfortable reading these comments advocating that the solution is to let the abused extract violence on their abusers. In too many cases, the abused discovers that they like the taste of violence, the power it grants them over those weaker or slower than them. And I can't knock them for that, violence feels wonderful. That's why I've had to be very careful not to let myself slip into that mold and remind myself that on the other side there is someone who is feeling the very same pain you shirk from.
I study CS at a (top* ) UK university.
Having spoken to a fair few people, a pattern that became plain as day very quickly was that almost all of us have had a background that either very specifically involved bullying as children or at the very least would have set us aside very strongly (heavy therapy for various reasons being one example). It's actually joked about at this university in multiple disciplines, however, that it's hardly uncommon for those who attend here to be 'crazy' in some way.
Lest you fear self-selection due to my own background I would point out that various circumstantial factors (including simply having spoken to many, many people) lead me to believe that I have enough of a sample to believe that isn't the case. Once again, when talking about others' lives I'll try to give as little identification as possible.
* I thought at length before putting that in, but I would hope that HN comments aren't likely fodder for the sort of 'shocker' article that graces rag news headlines.
Having spoken to a fair few people, a pattern that became plain as day very quickly was that almost all of us have had a background that either very specifically involved bullying as children or at the very least would have set us aside very strongly (heavy therapy for various reasons being one example). It's actually joked about at this university in multiple disciplines, however, that it's hardly uncommon for those who attend here to be 'crazy' in some way.
Lest you fear self-selection due to my own background I would point out that various circumstantial factors (including simply having spoken to many, many people) lead me to believe that I have enough of a sample to believe that isn't the case. Once again, when talking about others' lives I'll try to give as little identification as possible.
* I thought at length before putting that in, but I would hope that HN comments aren't likely fodder for the sort of 'shocker' article that graces rag news headlines.
Wow, that made me cry.
In my previous job (my current one is far better), I experienced workplace bullying.
Though childhood bullying is more traumatic long-term, and often far more overtly abusive, workplace bullying is in many ways harder to resolve, having a fight or full confrontation would often result in sacking + not being able to get a good reference going forward.
The typical way it works is via underhand comments + actions designed to put you down but which generally look perfectly acceptable to other colleagues. This makes it easy to make out that it's your fault, you're hysterical, why are you causing trouble when there isn't any?
No amount of bringing it up caused any managers up the line to do anything about it either - it wasn't in their interest to take the flak from challenging the people involved.
The really pernicious aspect of it is how it grinds down your confidence to the point where you start actually believing there really is something very wrong with you. I spent months afterwards emotionally burnt out, even getting a new job was incredibly hard because I had begun to truly believe I was just totally shit at my job, programming, etc.
The irony was, a simple word with the people concerned from a manager would have resolved a lot of the issue. The effort required was minimal and the consequences huge.
Please, if you're a middle/upper manager, don't put your career concerns over the human beings 'below' you. And if you do, don't kid yourself about what you're doing.
Though childhood bullying is more traumatic long-term, and often far more overtly abusive, workplace bullying is in many ways harder to resolve, having a fight or full confrontation would often result in sacking + not being able to get a good reference going forward.
The typical way it works is via underhand comments + actions designed to put you down but which generally look perfectly acceptable to other colleagues. This makes it easy to make out that it's your fault, you're hysterical, why are you causing trouble when there isn't any?
No amount of bringing it up caused any managers up the line to do anything about it either - it wasn't in their interest to take the flak from challenging the people involved.
The really pernicious aspect of it is how it grinds down your confidence to the point where you start actually believing there really is something very wrong with you. I spent months afterwards emotionally burnt out, even getting a new job was incredibly hard because I had begun to truly believe I was just totally shit at my job, programming, etc.
The irony was, a simple word with the people concerned from a manager would have resolved a lot of the issue. The effort required was minimal and the consequences huge.
Please, if you're a middle/upper manager, don't put your career concerns over the human beings 'below' you. And if you do, don't kid yourself about what you're doing.
This is why we need to stop teaching kids that it is wrong to defend themselves.
I have plugins in my browser disabled and I'm unable to click the media "area" at all (it's hiding behind something??). Just FYI.
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Then bully the bullies to make them stop. Otherwise, you are kidding yourselves.
Being bullied is a terrible thing to experience, and I wish that kids wouldn't be that cruel, however, to me, it is not fair to expel or exclude the bully.
You can't blame the bully for his/her social upbringing. Kids are basically psychopaths in such a young age - they just act according to whatever they feel, and if they haven't been taught boundaries - well, shit. Bad environments promote shitty attitudes and behaviour patterns, which is often due to their parents. Rich or poor doesn't matter. Some of the worst bullies I've been faced against came from wealthy families.
I think schools should be more focused on teaching the bullies way to cope with things at home, instead of simply excluding them. The bullies don't change their attitude, and someone new will take their place (I recall a Danish study about class rooms where the bullies removed, experienced the same amount of bulling just a month later. New bullies take other's places).
You can't blame the bully for his/her social upbringing. Kids are basically psychopaths in such a young age - they just act according to whatever they feel, and if they haven't been taught boundaries - well, shit. Bad environments promote shitty attitudes and behaviour patterns, which is often due to their parents. Rich or poor doesn't matter. Some of the worst bullies I've been faced against came from wealthy families.
I think schools should be more focused on teaching the bullies way to cope with things at home, instead of simply excluding them. The bullies don't change their attitude, and someone new will take their place (I recall a Danish study about class rooms where the bullies removed, experienced the same amount of bulling just a month later. New bullies take other's places).
I have participated in countless professional development experiences over the years, and I have grown a healthy skepticism towards commercial offerings that aim to solve school-based problems. So I was not excited when we had to do a workshop based on the Olweus bullying prevention program [1]. I was completely impressed, however. This organization has examined bullying very carefully, and they have used the results of their studies to offer meaningful, concrete steps that can be taken to deal effectively with bullying.
The two clearest things I learned were a good working definition of bullying [2], and a breakdown of the roles that people play in a bullying situation [3]. Bullying is negative behavior aimed at a person who will have difficulty defending themselves; it is repetitive in nature; and it is carried out by someone with an imbalance of power over someone else.
In bullying situations, there are 4 negative roles: bullies, followers, supporters, and passive supporters. There are disengaged onlookers. There is a person who is being bullied, and there may be defenders and potential defenders.
I learned that is often best to give our attention, when interrupting bullying, to the victim. Clearly if there is serious, immediate physical danger, we confront the bully first. But if saying something simple like, "Hey xxx, I don't like the way you're being treated, do you want to take a walk with me?" takes the power away from the bully, and stops giving that person the attention they have been craving. This is not enough; we need to follow up by dealing directly with the bully. But engaging the bully directly just feeds them the attention they want, and gives them more power.
Quick story: My high school classroom looks out on the back of a kindergarten-first grade playground. My students and I watch little kids play all day long. We watch all the misfit kids play at the back, less-watched part of the playground. Most of what we see is low-level shoving, self-regulated by peer groups. I finally saw something I needed to interrupt last week. I watched a kindergarten kid grab another kid by the collar, shove him against a chain link fence, and hold his hand up to the kids face like a gun. I walked over and said, "Hi, my name is Eric, who are you?" to the bullying kid. He let go and got really humble, and said his name. Then I remembered to focus on the victim. He turned around, and he was a classic snot-nosed kid who looked like he'd be picked on a lot. I asked him his name, said it didn't look like he was being treated very well, and talked to him for a few minutes. All of the onlookers gave their attention to the victim, and you could see the bully backing out, not in fear, but because no one was paying attention to him. I did ask the bully before they dispersed, "Do you really want to shoot someone?" He said no, and I said he might want to find another way to play. By the way, if he had run off, I would have gone into the school and found him in his classroom. Those kids need to know that strong, positive adults are watching them.
[1] - http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/index.page
[2] - http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/faqs.page#Answ...
[3] (pdf, page 4) - http://www.pa-strengthening-families.org/providers/308/bully...