Ask HN: Any advice for someone getting out of prison after 18 years?
151 comments
I'm seeing a lot of "he got what he deserved" and "he's gonna have to wash dishes, nobody will hire him" kinds of comments here. This is one of the really broken elements of US culture. We have a culture of revenge and shaming, rather than healing and allowing reparations. This is why we have the highest prison population per-capita in the world; higher than China, higher than Russia, higher than Iran, higher than Cuba, higher than any other place you might think of as "repressive" or a "prison state" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat...).
People change. Prisons make some folks worse, this is true. But, many people come out of prison with no desire other than to lead an honest life. One of my best friends over the past year or so is a felon; spent several years in prison on a drug-related crime (a serious drug-related crime, not a little weed in his pocket). When I went to Mexico for a month, he's the person I trusted the keys to my storage unit (with tens of thousands of dollars in gear) to. Why hold a mistake made in someone's youth over their head for the rest of their lives? How does that make a better, safer, more peaceful society?
People change. Prisons make some folks worse, this is true. But, many people come out of prison with no desire other than to lead an honest life. One of my best friends over the past year or so is a felon; spent several years in prison on a drug-related crime (a serious drug-related crime, not a little weed in his pocket). When I went to Mexico for a month, he's the person I trusted the keys to my storage unit (with tens of thousands of dollars in gear) to. Why hold a mistake made in someone's youth over their head for the rest of their lives? How does that make a better, safer, more peaceful society?
The "nobody will hire him" comments may just be realistic, as most jobs, even low level jobs, screen out felons. Even jobs one would think are amenable to felons, like oil roughnecks in North Dakota, are now staffed by large agencies who weed out felons. These days it's doubly tough for ex-cons because they are competing with millions of unemployed people who don't have a felon rap sheet.
If he's really interested in tech, one thing he could do is try to get involved with an organization that is religious related, such as making a church website, or helping out with an Access database. This might sound strange since vengance-oriented churches are so popular these days, but the Midwest still has many liberal church organizations into forgiveness and second chances and that sort of thing. In Indiana, I would suggest looking at Quaker oriented organizations, maybe even Earlham College.
If he's really interested in tech, one thing he could do is try to get involved with an organization that is religious related, such as making a church website, or helping out with an Access database. This might sound strange since vengance-oriented churches are so popular these days, but the Midwest still has many liberal church organizations into forgiveness and second chances and that sort of thing. In Indiana, I would suggest looking at Quaker oriented organizations, maybe even Earlham College.
> This might sound strange since vengance-oriented churches are so popular these days, but the Midwest still has many liberal church organizations that are into forgiveness and second chances and that sort of thing. In Indiana, I would suggest looking at Quaker oriented organizations, maybe even Earlham College.
This is a great suggestion.
This is a great suggestion.
Yes. I was able to find employment as a felon, even while I was on probation, partially because of becoming a cliche - a "born again Christian". I honestly did find religion (a big surprise to me) but I didn't realize what a benefit that can have for employment. I even ran into some of my senior management at my church (I was there first). It sucks to even hint of that as sort of a scam, but it happens all the time. Or maybe just check out some churches and truthfully find something. Evangelical Christians tend to love stories of guys that have made mistakes and have turned their lives around.
Just as an aside, the Quaker church is pretty much awesome. If I were a believer, I'd join the Religious Society of Friends. They're pro-peace and tolerant to a degree that should shame most other Christian churches into trying to be better Christians.
And, you're right that churches can be helpful to folks dealing with situations like this. I've become a lot more tolerant of churches and devout religious folks over the past year or so that I've been interested in and working on homelessness issues.
And, you're right that churches can be helpful to folks dealing with situations like this. I've become a lot more tolerant of churches and devout religious folks over the past year or so that I've been interested in and working on homelessness issues.
Most of the churches that need to be shamed into becoming better Christians, are unfortunately, completely immune to being ashamed of anything.
> We have a culture of revenge and shaming, rather than healing and allowing reparations.
I think you're spot-on. Revenge and shaming is a part of healing, of course, because it helps the community: 1) vent its frustration at a lawbreaker; 2) send a signal that such actions won't be tolerated. But we've gone from a "healthy amount of revenge" (so to speak) to such extreme punishments that reintegration becomes nearly impossible. To the community, someone who get 18 years for a crime must be a truly irredeemable person, right? To the imprisoned, a society that punishes him so harshly cannot be something that will welcome him back, right?
Prison sentences keep going up because recidivism is high, and the amount of crime in the U.S. is dramatically higher than in other western countries. But I think longer prison sentences make both of those things worse. Recidivism might go down if weren't nearly impossible for felons to re-integrate into society.
I think you're spot-on. Revenge and shaming is a part of healing, of course, because it helps the community: 1) vent its frustration at a lawbreaker; 2) send a signal that such actions won't be tolerated. But we've gone from a "healthy amount of revenge" (so to speak) to such extreme punishments that reintegration becomes nearly impossible. To the community, someone who get 18 years for a crime must be a truly irredeemable person, right? To the imprisoned, a society that punishes him so harshly cannot be something that will welcome him back, right?
Prison sentences keep going up because recidivism is high, and the amount of crime in the U.S. is dramatically higher than in other western countries. But I think longer prison sentences make both of those things worse. Recidivism might go down if weren't nearly impossible for felons to re-integrate into society.
If I'm hiring for a job, all other things being equal, why choose the felon? It's possible, maybe even likely, that the person was reformed in prison. But if I choose the non-felon, then I don't even have to worry about it.
To be honest, though, it depends a heavily on what the person's crime was. Do I care that a guy got caught with a pound of weed? No. Do I care that he embezzled from his employer? Definitely. A guy who killed his cheating wife isn't a big concern, but I could never trust a guy who "snapped" and assaulted some random person.
To be honest, though, it depends a heavily on what the person's crime was. Do I care that a guy got caught with a pound of weed? No. Do I care that he embezzled from his employer? Definitely. A guy who killed his cheating wife isn't a big concern, but I could never trust a guy who "snapped" and assaulted some random person.
"But if I choose the non-felon, then I don't even have to worry about it."
Unless the "non-felon" is simply smart enough that he hasn't been caught yet.
Unless the "non-felon" is simply smart enough that he hasn't been caught yet.
>A guy who killed his cheating wife isn't a big concern
You have no problem keeping company with outed sociopaths?
You have no problem keeping company with outed sociopaths?
I mean he's unlikely to be a repeat offender.
For that specific offense, sure - who's gonna marry him?
I would argue that someone who murdered his wife because she cheated on him probably has poor impulse control. All other things being equal, I'd give the job to the person who hasn't taken a life.
I would argue that someone who murdered his wife because she cheated on him probably has poor impulse control. All other things being equal, I'd give the job to the person who hasn't taken a life.
There's nothing in a typical work environment remotely comparable to a cheating spouse. Assuming they didn't have a string of other convictions, I'd give the person the benefit of the doubt regarding their impulse control. Assuming they're really the best qualified for the job.
That said, I'd also prefer the candidate with equal qualifications and no felony.
That said, I'd also prefer the candidate with equal qualifications and no felony.
I'd argue you haven't got a clue what you are talking about and compensate by resorting to cliched moralizing. Everyone would snap given sufficient provocation, a 'cheating spouse' is very provocative, to call it "poor impulse control" is, at best, sanctimonious.
I'm guessing you are just a child or a troll. When you get older you'll realise all marriages and lives have their ups and downs.
If a 'cheating spouse' is the worse you have to deal with you'll have lived a lucky or short life.
Death of loved ones, marriage break ups, losing jobs is life. Get over it. It happens to all of us, this me, me, me mentality that we live in a hollywood movie and just because theses things happen to us it's a world event gets a bit tiring.
If a 'cheating spouse' is the worse you have to deal with you'll have lived a lucky or short life.
Death of loved ones, marriage break ups, losing jobs is life. Get over it. It happens to all of us, this me, me, me mentality that we live in a hollywood movie and just because theses things happen to us it's a world event gets a bit tiring.
> Everyone would snap given sufficient provocation
Depending on your definition of "snap", this is unsubstantiated opinion, not a fact deserving the assertion you used.
It may be that everyone will "snap" if provoked enough if by "snap" you mean become aggressive, possibly entering into a fight, but even then you'll have to sell me that everyone is susceptible to this.
If you define "snap" as taking of another's life when there is no direct threat to your own (which is usually what we are talking about when discussing the murdering of a spouse), then I think you have a LOT of evidence you need to bring forth.
Depending on your definition of "snap", this is unsubstantiated opinion, not a fact deserving the assertion you used.
It may be that everyone will "snap" if provoked enough if by "snap" you mean become aggressive, possibly entering into a fight, but even then you'll have to sell me that everyone is susceptible to this.
If you define "snap" as taking of another's life when there is no direct threat to your own (which is usually what we are talking about when discussing the murdering of a spouse), then I think you have a LOT of evidence you need to bring forth.
If by "cliched moralizing" you mean arguing that murdering a spouse is, in fact, immoral, then sure. I'm a cliched idiot.
[deleted]
Wouldn't some freelancing sites be a good option? If he gets familiar with some basic PHP skills, he could at least get a start with real life coding challenges. People who hire on elance or other freelance sites don't pay much attention to personal details as long as he gets some decent reviews.
I still don't think nonviolent drug crimes are the same as bank robbery.
When you commit a bank robbery with a loaded firearm, you're telling society you have no problem taking a person's life for a little money.
If people change, why is the recidivism rate for felons over 50%? And those are just the ones who get caught.
Again, I'm speaking strictly to violent crimes here. Nonviolent/drug offenders should be treated very differently.
> Why is the recidivism rate for felons over 50%?
Because it's damn near impossible to make an honest living with a felony conviction on your record in the current economy. The mentality of "Why should you get the same as honest men like me" is one that has societal costs, but it is a third rail of politics, as no congressman is going to make an argument for lighter sentencing, or easier integration of felons. In reality, all felony sentences are life sentences, and this is something we need to fix.
Because it's damn near impossible to make an honest living with a felony conviction on your record in the current economy. The mentality of "Why should you get the same as honest men like me" is one that has societal costs, but it is a third rail of politics, as no congressman is going to make an argument for lighter sentencing, or easier integration of felons. In reality, all felony sentences are life sentences, and this is something we need to fix.
I think there's a big difference between killing someone and threatening to do so. Though I also think it's entirely possible to kill someone and regret it and not do it again.
I think recidivism is high due to ridiculously long sentences, as well as the fact that our prisons are brutal hellholes that leave people much worse off psychologically than when they went in. And of course the fact that no one will give you a job.
I think recidivism is high due to ridiculously long sentences, as well as the fact that our prisons are brutal hellholes that leave people much worse off psychologically than when they went in. And of course the fact that no one will give you a job.
[deleted]
if you go into a bank without a gun, imply you have a gun, it's bank robbery. you don't need a gun, the gun can be a toy gun, so long as the victim feels you have a real gun, you get charged as if you actually have a real loaded gun.
I don't think most other cultures even have a word for "felon".
I represent one of the largest venture capital funds in the state of Indiana with a substantial number of investments in tech-focused companies. I would be more than happy to speak with you and your friend and see if we might be able to help him.
First, a rant: I always get shocked about how the US justice system works, where punishing (and revenge) is obviously more important than protecting humans. He should have been released as soon as he posed no threat to others. If the US keeps its current course there will be more people inside prisons than outside of them in the future.
He certainly has a lot of expectations. I can only imagine the pressure he is putting upon himself right now. My only advice is for him to find the first regular job he can. That will give him more time to learn programming (if he wants to do that) and release a bit of the pressure to succeed fast.
He certainly has a lot of expectations. I can only imagine the pressure he is putting upon himself right now. My only advice is for him to find the first regular job he can. That will give him more time to learn programming (if he wants to do that) and release a bit of the pressure to succeed fast.
I'll agree with the first regular job. He's been socially isolated for 18 years and probably has very little ability to function in the real world. A job at Pizza Hut or Starbucks will put some money in his pocket, get him self-sufficient, and interacting with people. He'll be able to rent an apartment and then he can spend time coding and learning in his off hours.
While he's doing that he's going to have to hit the pavement and find someone willing to take a chance on him. That will be the tough part. He needs to build a resume. Contracting might be a good way to start.
Lots of luck to him. Have him start a blog so we can follow how it's going. I'd find the insights into the prison system and his work toward the future very interesting, if he's will to share.
While he's doing that he's going to have to hit the pavement and find someone willing to take a chance on him. That will be the tough part. He needs to build a resume. Contracting might be a good way to start.
Lots of luck to him. Have him start a blog so we can follow how it's going. I'd find the insights into the prison system and his work toward the future very interesting, if he's will to share.
I'll definitely suggest the blog to him. While researching his situation I came across someone on Quora who was just recently released after 25 years. He writes extensively on the subject you're curious about:
http://michaelsantos.com/
http://www.quora.com/Michael-Santos-4
http://michaelsantos.com/
http://www.quora.com/Michael-Santos-4
One quote from those links in particular stands out:
> "The links above provide definitive proof that a prisoner can indeed write books. Bringing those books to market, however, could expose the person in prison to disciplinary problems. Since I brought many books to market during my lengthy odyssey, authorities frequently charged me with the disciplinary infraction of “conducting a business.” They locked me in solitary confinement numerous times and they frequently uprooted my family by transferring me in chains to prisons across state lines. "
I think that inmates should not be able to "conduct business" if they are illegal, indeed. And should not have cellphones or anything of the sort. But in this case, the guys should have been congratulated and his sentence reduced somewhat.
> "The links above provide definitive proof that a prisoner can indeed write books. Bringing those books to market, however, could expose the person in prison to disciplinary problems. Since I brought many books to market during my lengthy odyssey, authorities frequently charged me with the disciplinary infraction of “conducting a business.” They locked me in solitary confinement numerous times and they frequently uprooted my family by transferring me in chains to prisons across state lines. "
I think that inmates should not be able to "conduct business" if they are illegal, indeed. And should not have cellphones or anything of the sort. But in this case, the guys should have been congratulated and his sentence reduced somewhat.
> he's going to have to ... find someone willing to take a chance on him. He needs to build a resume. Contracting might be a good way to start.
These are very good points. The conceptual difference between a contractor and an employee may make it a lot easier to find rewarding work for someone that would "fail" most companies' background checks.
These are very good points. The conceptual difference between a contractor and an employee may make it a lot easier to find rewarding work for someone that would "fail" most companies' background checks.
I'm all for challenging the current US justice system, but I'm not sure why "posed no threat" is your only standard for who should be in prison. He did actually violate the property rights of other people. Prison, in mine and many others' opinions, is not just about rehabilitation.
Then slap an anklet on him and make him say sorry once a week until you're satisfied.
"You violated our property rights, so we're going to feed, clothe, and house you for the next twenty years and resent you for it" is something a crazy person would say.
"You violated our property rights, so we're going to feed, clothe, and house you for the next twenty years and resent you for it" is something a crazy person would say.
I think because I live in an extremely violent place it changed the way I think about prisons. I'm not saying that you or me are right or wrong, really.
Most criminals are already living in hell. You send them to a prison with this idea that you are punishing them with the clear intention of feeling good in some way (maybe closure?).
What people lack of understanding is that prisons are not real punishment for those who are actually there. Some of them might even like it. So, prisons are not efficient in punishment nor rehabilitation. What are those things?
Most criminals are already living in hell. You send them to a prison with this idea that you are punishing them with the clear intention of feeling good in some way (maybe closure?).
What people lack of understanding is that prisons are not real punishment for those who are actually there. Some of them might even like it. So, prisons are not efficient in punishment nor rehabilitation. What are those things?
> What people lack of understanding is that prisons are not real punishment for those who are actually there. Some of them might even like it. So, prisons are not efficient in punishment nor rehabilitation.
Maybe they're not effective punishment or rehabilitation, but I would certainly say they're an effective deterrent. They might not be a punishment for anyone in there, but they could still be (and at least in my case, certainly are) seen as a punishment for some people who aren't in there. I would bet that a prison sentence is a much better deterrent than, say, volunteer hours or a fine. Whether deterring bank robberies is a valuable enough goal is a matter of opinion I suppose.
Obviously this is all conjecture, if someone can pull up a study showing that prison sentences don't have any deterrent effect over other forms of punishment then I'd accept that I'm wrong... But I'd be somewhat shocked if that were the case.
Maybe they're not effective punishment or rehabilitation, but I would certainly say they're an effective deterrent. They might not be a punishment for anyone in there, but they could still be (and at least in my case, certainly are) seen as a punishment for some people who aren't in there. I would bet that a prison sentence is a much better deterrent than, say, volunteer hours or a fine. Whether deterring bank robberies is a valuable enough goal is a matter of opinion I suppose.
Obviously this is all conjecture, if someone can pull up a study showing that prison sentences don't have any deterrent effect over other forms of punishment then I'd accept that I'm wrong... But I'd be somewhat shocked if that were the case.
> if someone can pull up a study showing that prison sentences don't have any deterrent effect over other forms of punishment then I'd accept I'm wrong...
Certainly: http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/e199912.htm
This is not some joe-schmoe study either, from the executive summary: "Fifty studies dating from 1958 involving 336,052 offenders produced 325 correlations between recidivism and (a) length of time in prison and recidivism or (b) serving a prison sentence vs. receiving a community-based sanction."
In particular: "The essential conclusions reached from this study were:
1. Prisons should not be used with the expectation of reducing criminal behaviour.
2. On the basis of the present results, excessive use of incarceration has enormous cost implications.
3. In order to determine who is being adversely affected by prison, it is incumbent upon prison officials to implement repeated, comprehensive assessments of offenders’ attitudes, values, and behaviours while incarcerated.
4. The primary justification of prison should be to incapacitate offenders (particularly, those of a chronic, higher risk nature) for reasonable periods and to exact retribution."
Summary points 1 and 4 are key: Prisons are not effective deterrence, but they are great tools for indirect retribution suffered by the victim(s).
Also in response to your last comment "I'd be somewhat shocked [..]": There are plenty of things that goes against simple human intuition--that's what science is for. Believe the facts, and disregard intuition.
Certainly: http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/e199912.htm
This is not some joe-schmoe study either, from the executive summary: "Fifty studies dating from 1958 involving 336,052 offenders produced 325 correlations between recidivism and (a) length of time in prison and recidivism or (b) serving a prison sentence vs. receiving a community-based sanction."
In particular: "The essential conclusions reached from this study were:
1. Prisons should not be used with the expectation of reducing criminal behaviour.
2. On the basis of the present results, excessive use of incarceration has enormous cost implications.
3. In order to determine who is being adversely affected by prison, it is incumbent upon prison officials to implement repeated, comprehensive assessments of offenders’ attitudes, values, and behaviours while incarcerated.
4. The primary justification of prison should be to incapacitate offenders (particularly, those of a chronic, higher risk nature) for reasonable periods and to exact retribution."
Summary points 1 and 4 are key: Prisons are not effective deterrence, but they are great tools for indirect retribution suffered by the victim(s).
Also in response to your last comment "I'd be somewhat shocked [..]": There are plenty of things that goes against simple human intuition--that's what science is for. Believe the facts, and disregard intuition.
That study only looks at the deterrent effect on existing criminals, not the general populace. I think there is confusion about the word "deterrent". I always thought about 'deterrent' in this context as: "Prisons are a deterrent.. just the thought of serving time in jail will deter anyone from committing a crime." Whereas the study you linked reports: "We have found that criminals who serve longer sentence are no more deterred from committing another crime than those who served short sentences."
Fair enough. There are plenty of studies out there regarding this topic, though a definitive conclusion is probably beyond any one single study. See papers Justin McCrary have published (he's done quite a bit of work in this area).
One such paper takes an interesting approach, combing the criminal records to see if the fact that deterrence is stiffened after 18 has an deterrent effect on crime rate by comparing juvenile offenders that are months pre-18 and 'adult' offenders that have just recently turned 18. The finding is 'surprisingly' a negative. Only very minor drop off rate is seen.
You can read the paper here: http://www.nber.org/papers/w11491.pdf
One such paper takes an interesting approach, combing the criminal records to see if the fact that deterrence is stiffened after 18 has an deterrent effect on crime rate by comparing juvenile offenders that are months pre-18 and 'adult' offenders that have just recently turned 18. The finding is 'surprisingly' a negative. Only very minor drop off rate is seen.
You can read the paper here: http://www.nber.org/papers/w11491.pdf
By the by, there's no definitive research that shows that prison sentences act as a deterrent against crime. And there's a lot of research on crime & punishment out there.
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q...
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q...
> prisons are not real punishment
I think Aaron Swartz would disagree.
> punishing them with the clear intention of feeling good in some way
This plays some role, but I'd say the biggest reason people give in favor of having prisons is rational: Deterrence. If crimes aren't punished, what stops people from stealing when they want something they can't afford? What stops the strong from beating up the weak for fun, for profit, or as a way to resolve disputes in their favor? What stops the weak from shooting the strong because they finally get tired of being beaten up? What reason is there to adhere to contracts and agreements necessary for effective commerce if it would be more beneficial to one party to break them?
If you agree that punishment is necessary, but prison is somehow deficient as a punishment, what's the alternative? The punishment has to be sufficiently undesirable to cause most people to avoid crime in order to avoid the punishment. In addition, if it's going to be implemented in the US, it can't be cruel and unusual punishment since that is strictly Constitutionally prohibited, and if it's going to be implemented in a relatively free and democratic society, it has to show respect for generally accepted human rights principles. This excludes solutions like lashing, waterboarding, more extreme torture, massive expansions of the death penalty (I believe England as late as the 1500's would hang homeless children for stealing clothes to keep warm in the winter), or collective punishment (punishing someone else instead of or in addition to a criminal, e.g. many authoritarian regimes are willing to punish opponents by jailing, torturing, and/or killing their innocent friends, relatives, and children).
I do think that US criminal justice could be better. Currently many crimes are punished too harshly, sometimes sentences are inconsistent, current implementation of plea bargaining sometimes leads to terrible injustices, public defenders are woefully underfunded, the education system doesn't do a good job of covering these issues, and life is far too difficult for people after a felony conviction (discrimination against workers with felony records is legal and widespread; this sort of discrimination shouldn't be illegal, but culturally we need to be more willing to let people have second chances).
I think Aaron Swartz would disagree.
> punishing them with the clear intention of feeling good in some way
This plays some role, but I'd say the biggest reason people give in favor of having prisons is rational: Deterrence. If crimes aren't punished, what stops people from stealing when they want something they can't afford? What stops the strong from beating up the weak for fun, for profit, or as a way to resolve disputes in their favor? What stops the weak from shooting the strong because they finally get tired of being beaten up? What reason is there to adhere to contracts and agreements necessary for effective commerce if it would be more beneficial to one party to break them?
If you agree that punishment is necessary, but prison is somehow deficient as a punishment, what's the alternative? The punishment has to be sufficiently undesirable to cause most people to avoid crime in order to avoid the punishment. In addition, if it's going to be implemented in the US, it can't be cruel and unusual punishment since that is strictly Constitutionally prohibited, and if it's going to be implemented in a relatively free and democratic society, it has to show respect for generally accepted human rights principles. This excludes solutions like lashing, waterboarding, more extreme torture, massive expansions of the death penalty (I believe England as late as the 1500's would hang homeless children for stealing clothes to keep warm in the winter), or collective punishment (punishing someone else instead of or in addition to a criminal, e.g. many authoritarian regimes are willing to punish opponents by jailing, torturing, and/or killing their innocent friends, relatives, and children).
I do think that US criminal justice could be better. Currently many crimes are punished too harshly, sometimes sentences are inconsistent, current implementation of plea bargaining sometimes leads to terrible injustices, public defenders are woefully underfunded, the education system doesn't do a good job of covering these issues, and life is far too difficult for people after a felony conviction (discrimination against workers with felony records is legal and widespread; this sort of discrimination shouldn't be illegal, but culturally we need to be more willing to let people have second chances).
The Aaron Swartz analogy doesn't work. The point that the parent was trying to make was that for your average violent and even non-violent criminal (typically low-income upbringing, living in run-down conditions, living on the "streets" but not in a homeless sense), prisons are not real punishment. In fact, conditions in prison can for some be an improvement. Aaron grew up in an upper-middle class environment. Prison would have been a total change for him.
The problem with deterrence is that criminals by their very nature do not think about the consequences of their actions. This is a generalization, but criminals tend to have poor impulse control and don't think about the future. This is why many studies have shown that the death penalty does not work as a deterrent - a murderer is not being rational in their decision to murder someone. They either do it in the heat of the moment (can't control their temper), or they do because of overwhelming emotion/hate/spite/sociopathy (premeditated murder).
The problem with deterrence is that criminals by their very nature do not think about the consequences of their actions. This is a generalization, but criminals tend to have poor impulse control and don't think about the future. This is why many studies have shown that the death penalty does not work as a deterrent - a murderer is not being rational in their decision to murder someone. They either do it in the heat of the moment (can't control their temper), or they do because of overwhelming emotion/hate/spite/sociopathy (premeditated murder).
Here's the flaw in your argument against the necessity of deterrence:
If a policy effectively prevents a targeted category of people from becoming criminals, then most criminals won't be from that targeted category.
Say p ~ 10% of people either don't think about the consequences of their actions or don't care whether they go to jail. Say q ~ 90% do care about the consequences of their actions and do care whether they go to jail.
Under a system where deterrence is a strong element, most criminals will be from p. But remove the deterrent, and you'll start seeing more criminals from q.
If a policy effectively prevents a targeted category of people from becoming criminals, then most criminals won't be from that targeted category.
Say p ~ 10% of people either don't think about the consequences of their actions or don't care whether they go to jail. Say q ~ 90% do care about the consequences of their actions and do care whether they go to jail.
Under a system where deterrence is a strong element, most criminals will be from p. But remove the deterrent, and you'll start seeing more criminals from q.
Let me clarify. I did not say that deterrence is utterly without use. When I said that there is a problem with deterrence, I meant that the current state of deterrence in our justice system is broken. There is a mistaken belief that more punishment necessarily entails greater deterrence, which is many times not the case. There is really a threshold when it comes to deterrence. There is very little to no deterrent effect of the death penalty vs. life without parole, as others have posted here. In fact, I personally find it hard to believe that a life sentence versus, say, 50 years in prison, has any additional deterrent effect for something like murder. The rational 90% would still be adequately deterred.
What is it about then? I see only one reason for a person to be locked up:
1- He poses a threat to society and should be removed, as not to endanger others.
Prison it is not about education, it is not about rehabilitation. It is required to keep dangerous individuals from causing further harm (the other option would be the capital punishment).
Prisons are also used as punishment, but that's a side-effect. There are other ways of having a non-violent (or no longer violent) person repay his debt to society.
Putting people in prison for anything other than physical violence is ridiculous.
In this case, there was likely violence involved, but we do not have details, so I'll refrain from trying to apply the reasoning to this case.
1- He poses a threat to society and should be removed, as not to endanger others.
Prison it is not about education, it is not about rehabilitation. It is required to keep dangerous individuals from causing further harm (the other option would be the capital punishment).
Prisons are also used as punishment, but that's a side-effect. There are other ways of having a non-violent (or no longer violent) person repay his debt to society.
Putting people in prison for anything other than physical violence is ridiculous.
In this case, there was likely violence involved, but we do not have details, so I'll refrain from trying to apply the reasoning to this case.
>> "Prisons are also used as punishment, but that's a side-effect. There are other ways of having a non-violent (or no longer violent) person repay his debt to society."
Is this accurate? Depriving someone of normal civilian rights seems pretty punitive to me. And regarding other ways for people to repay their debts to societies: I'm interested in hearing what else we could be doing with these people.
Is this accurate? Depriving someone of normal civilian rights seems pretty punitive to me. And regarding other ways for people to repay their debts to societies: I'm interested in hearing what else we could be doing with these people.
Well, if you will allow wikipedia quotes:
>For most of history, imprisoning has not been a punishment in itself, but rather a way to confine criminals until corporal or capital punishment was administered.
> I'm interested in hearing what else we could be doing with these people.
"These people" casts a very wide net.
My personal point of view: any time that someone is convicted because of material/monetary damages, this individual should not be locked up. He should be paying for that in some other way. Some other way could be with labor - or simple fines.
Violent crimes, on the other hand, are a different matter. Take the China or the US approach, I don't particularly care, as I want those people removed from the society the fastest way possible.
This case in particular is pretty severe, as it involved firearms and threatening people. I do not have much sympathy for the guy because of that. However, since he was released, his criminal record should be sealed. After all, if he was released, then he is assumed to have "paid off" his debt and also presumed non-violent.
Either let people really pay for their crimes or keep them locked up indefinitely. Releasing unemployable people is not a good thing to do. If anything, this person is now much more likely to commit crimes, as legal work opportunities are greatly reduced. Not to mention living with other criminals for most of his adult life...
>For most of history, imprisoning has not been a punishment in itself, but rather a way to confine criminals until corporal or capital punishment was administered.
> I'm interested in hearing what else we could be doing with these people.
"These people" casts a very wide net.
My personal point of view: any time that someone is convicted because of material/monetary damages, this individual should not be locked up. He should be paying for that in some other way. Some other way could be with labor - or simple fines.
Violent crimes, on the other hand, are a different matter. Take the China or the US approach, I don't particularly care, as I want those people removed from the society the fastest way possible.
This case in particular is pretty severe, as it involved firearms and threatening people. I do not have much sympathy for the guy because of that. However, since he was released, his criminal record should be sealed. After all, if he was released, then he is assumed to have "paid off" his debt and also presumed non-violent.
Either let people really pay for their crimes or keep them locked up indefinitely. Releasing unemployable people is not a good thing to do. If anything, this person is now much more likely to commit crimes, as legal work opportunities are greatly reduced. Not to mention living with other criminals for most of his adult life...
Traditionally, there are three reasons for locking people up:
- punishment: you did something bad, so you should suffer.
- revenge: you did something bad to me; I'll be happy to see you suffer.
- prevention: you did something bad; to prevent you from repeating that (for a while), we'll lock you up.
Perhaps surprisingly, "paying back one's debt to society" does not figure here. Also, why do you think punishment would be paying back one's debts?
- punishment: you did something bad, so you should suffer.
- revenge: you did something bad to me; I'll be happy to see you suffer.
- prevention: you did something bad; to prevent you from repeating that (for a while), we'll lock you up.
Perhaps surprisingly, "paying back one's debt to society" does not figure here. Also, why do you think punishment would be paying back one's debts?
What do you propose we do about a man who kills his wife (or some other enemy) over a long held grudge and poses exactly zero threat to anyone else?
I feel like our system probably shouldn't really cater to sadists.
Prisons is not only about threat to others, its also about punishment. Someone could maybe kill a whole family, then after a year in prison have an "enlightenment", become religious, have regrets about the killing, and knowing himself that he won't do it again, he still deserves his full prison sentence!
That's moralizing. Punishment is something parents do to their kids or churches do to their congregants. I certainly understand why people strongly believe the prison system should be used to try to balance the grand metaphysical scales of justice, but I tend to think it should be used to make society safer and better.
Thinking that criminal justice should be about personal punishment, not social outcomes, is what leads to people being thrown in prison for selling sex or consuming drugs.
Thinking that criminal justice should be about personal punishment, not social outcomes, is what leads to people being thrown in prison for selling sex or consuming drugs.
You're wrong. The whole system should be based on crime prevention, not punishment.
There should be better predictors of how likely a person is going to repeat the crime and keep him locked up for that amount of time. Also, predictors of how likely it is for someone to make their first crime, so it could be prevented in the first place.
I'm pretty sure that it's possible to predict future criminals from their Facebook data etc, and just send those people somewhere else where their environment matches their behavior.
There should be better predictors of how likely a person is going to repeat the crime and keep him locked up for that amount of time. Also, predictors of how likely it is for someone to make their first crime, so it could be prevented in the first place.
I'm pretty sure that it's possible to predict future criminals from their Facebook data etc, and just send those people somewhere else where their environment matches their behavior.
> predict future criminals from their Facebook data etc, and just send those people somewhere else
Sending someone to Siberia because there's a possibility that they might commit a crime in the future? Welcome to Soviet Norightsistan, comrade.
Sending someone to Siberia because there's a possibility that they might commit a crime in the future? Welcome to Soviet Norightsistan, comrade.
> Also, predictors of how likely it is for someone to make their first crime, so it could be prevented in the first place.
They have those, and they're quite accurate. They're also illegal.
They have those, and they're quite accurate. They're also illegal.
You don't know the details of the crime. For a sentence that long, it likely involved a firearm or some type of physical violence. Protecting the public probably meant locking this guy up until he reached middle age.
Having said that, now that he's paid his debt, it does seem like the system should do more to help him return to productive society.
Having said that, now that he's paid his debt, it does seem like the system should do more to help him return to productive society.
Yes, a firearm was involved. It was not, however, discharged. Nor was anyone injured during the offense. This was his first offense; he thought (irrational, of course) it was his only option after his small business started falling apart.
Involving a firearm in the commission of a crime is an instant ticket on the Felony Express. If he hadn't had a gun (first offense or not, discharged or not, loaded or not, real or not) he likely would have been out a long time ago.
When you have a gun in that situation the number of things that can go wrong increases by an order of magnitude. The adrenaline could make him pull the trigger when he didn't really mean to. Someone in the bank tackling him could make it go off. Hell, it could jam and he could blow his own hand off.
I'm glad he's turned his life around but we can't have people committing armed robbery and going back out onto the street in three months.
When you have a gun in that situation the number of things that can go wrong increases by an order of magnitude. The adrenaline could make him pull the trigger when he didn't really mean to. Someone in the bank tackling him could make it go off. Hell, it could jam and he could blow his own hand off.
I'm glad he's turned his life around but we can't have people committing armed robbery and going back out onto the street in three months.
> I'm glad he's turned his life around but we can't have people committing armed robbery and going back out onto the street in three months.
I think this is a straw man. Most of us agree that armed robbery is a crime that deserves some punishment. However, if 18 years was his sentence, I want his sentence to be 18 years, not a subsequent lifetime of being unable to contribute meaningfully to society. He's not out in three months, he's spent half of my life in prison.
I think this is a straw man. Most of us agree that armed robbery is a crime that deserves some punishment. However, if 18 years was his sentence, I want his sentence to be 18 years, not a subsequent lifetime of being unable to contribute meaningfully to society. He's not out in three months, he's spent half of my life in prison.
What if the gun wasn't even loaded? Of course, this is absolutely irrelevant to the question. What's done is done. He just wants to move forward and I'm really more interested in helping him to find options.
A bank teller can't know the gun isn't loaded. PTSD is a real bitch and could easily have ruined the tellers life permanently. If there were any customers in the bank they could have been a victim too. Families could have been destroyed.
Frankly 18 years sounds kinda cheap. If you have to rob a bank, at least tie a chain around the atm at 1 am -- more money and less hurt to all concerned.
Frankly 18 years sounds kinda cheap. If you have to rob a bank, at least tie a chain around the atm at 1 am -- more money and less hurt to all concerned.
I'm curious. What do you think the going rate for a bank robbery should be? Assuming that a weapon was plainly visible, but not fired? 30 years? 40?
However long it takes to make them not be worth it, though no minimum sentences. An normal of 30 years might do it, with some real incentives for reintegrating into society upon release as well as possible time of for good behavior (but not getting into fights is not enough to qualify for good behavior).
I agree, it is pretty strict but that is because it is a very serious crime due to the direct impact the gun has on people. Steal the ATM, break into the place in the night, sell cocaine, whatever, but don't fucking threaten peoples life.
I agree, it is pretty strict but that is because it is a very serious crime due to the direct impact the gun has on people. Steal the ATM, break into the place in the night, sell cocaine, whatever, but don't fucking threaten peoples life.
Exactly what @tomjen3 said.
Even if you have a plastic toy you spray painted black, that's the same thing as having one in the chamber. The teller still thinks s/he is going to die.
Even if you have a plastic toy you spray painted black, that's the same thing as having one in the chamber. The teller still thinks s/he is going to die.
Oh, that's good to know. What if a security guard had pulled a weapon on him? Would anyone have been injured then? Or what if one of the other customers had rushed him?
I used to think that a man (it's almost always a man) brings a loaded gun to a crime for one reason - to murder someone who got in his way. I've since mollified my stance on that, but still, the fact that no-one was injured isn't in itself really exculpatory.
I used to think that a man (it's almost always a man) brings a loaded gun to a crime for one reason - to murder someone who got in his way. I've since mollified my stance on that, but still, the fact that no-one was injured isn't in itself really exculpatory.
We're assuming, of course, that the gun was loaded.
He shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place. End of story. If he knew that bank robbing was a crime and he committed it anyway, he deserves whatever punishment was meted out to him. People could (or may) have been killed over his greed for money.
That being said, I have no problems with the notion of helping ex-cons try to turn their lives around, after they've paid their debt to society. I am a supporter of Delancey Street organization in SF, which helps ex-cons reintegrate with society by giving them jobs in the moving industry, cooking, selling Christmas trees, etc.
That being said, I have no problems with the notion of helping ex-cons try to turn their lives around, after they've paid their debt to society. I am a supporter of Delancey Street organization in SF, which helps ex-cons reintegrate with society by giving them jobs in the moving industry, cooking, selling Christmas trees, etc.
He "deserves whatever punishment was meted out to him"? What if the law dictated life in prison, or the death penalty, or for him to be drawn and quartered?
People, particularly young men in their early 20s, mess up. He certainly needed to be put in prison for years, but decades? The person someone is when they're 30 is wildly different from who they were when they were 20, biologically.
Even if his crime actually ended in someone being injured or killed.
People, particularly young men in their early 20s, mess up. He certainly needed to be put in prison for years, but decades? The person someone is when they're 30 is wildly different from who they were when they were 20, biologically.
Even if his crime actually ended in someone being injured or killed.
We're not talking about Jean Valjean who stole a loaf of bread to feed his family. It's someone who committed a violent crime of robbing a bank because they wanted someone else's money, and they didn't want to earn it the slow, hard way. They knew what they were doing was wrong. They need to accept the consequences of their actions, including 18 years in jail. I'm sure the person in question has done this, and that's why I have problems with any efforts in rehabilitating him now that he has served his time.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. It's as simple as that. If the punishment were death for robbing a bank were death, and you still went ahead and did it, whose fault is that? People need to take responsibility for their own actions. They didn't accidentally rob a bank, or they weren't somehow tricked into robbing a bank. They knowingly decided to do it. If the sentence was 18 years, then I'm satisfied that justice was served.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. It's as simple as that. If the punishment were death for robbing a bank were death, and you still went ahead and did it, whose fault is that? People need to take responsibility for their own actions. They didn't accidentally rob a bank, or they weren't somehow tricked into robbing a bank. They knowingly decided to do it. If the sentence was 18 years, then I'm satisfied that justice was served.
So, suppose the crime were downloading academic articles, and the punishment was to be up to 35 years in prison...
What you're arguing for is the inherent rightness of State violence. But the government can be wrong, and it often is wrong. If it's wrong, it's not moral to say, "Well, the government said it would do [wrong thing] to him, who am I to question it?" Instead, you question it and call it into doubt, not try to make a descriptive consequence into a prescriptive consequence.
What you're arguing for is the inherent rightness of State violence. But the government can be wrong, and it often is wrong. If it's wrong, it's not moral to say, "Well, the government said it would do [wrong thing] to him, who am I to question it?" Instead, you question it and call it into doubt, not try to make a descriptive consequence into a prescriptive consequence.
Rarely are the minds of people who will go to this level as simple as greed. Often times it's to save a life that is falling apart, the stress of the situation leading you to make decisions that turn out to be bad. Is it selfish? Sometimes. Is it greed? Maybe to an extent. Is it simple? Never. In fact that's the only thing that is simple, that these things are always complicated.
I wonder what your response would have been if he had committed a similar crime but was an Afghan insurgent.
What does Afghan insurgent mean in this context? Do you mean an Afghani citizen robbing a bank in the USA? Or an Afghan insurgent who also decides to rob an Afghan bank? Or an Afghan insurgent who robs a bank in the USA (presumably in an attempt to further the insurgency)?
Pretty much the same, actually. If anything, I'd suggest even more leniency.
Next question: Would you hire the bank robber guy?
I ask because I don't think I could do it
(assuming I were in a position to hire)
I ask because I don't think I could do it
(assuming I were in a position to hire)
It certainly would influence my hiring decision. Not a show stopper, but certainly a minor negative. Probably the damage done by lost opportunities for experience would be worse than having a record, though. That even functions as an excuse of sorts--I suspect I'd actually like someone who was in prison for five years and got a degree over someone who lived off a trust fund for five years and did nothing.
All depends on the person, though, and what exactly I'm hiring for. And someone coming out of prison after 20 years? The fact that they committed a crime is long past, but it's hard to overstate how damaging decades in prison is. People have a really hard time adjusting, and any hire of someone like that I did would be out of charity, not out of expecting to get any value out of the person. If they manage to do well, I'd take that as an unexpected plus.
All depends on the person, though, and what exactly I'm hiring for. And someone coming out of prison after 20 years? The fact that they committed a crime is long past, but it's hard to overstate how damaging decades in prison is. People have a really hard time adjusting, and any hire of someone like that I did would be out of charity, not out of expecting to get any value out of the person. If they manage to do well, I'd take that as an unexpected plus.
> he deserves whatever punishment was meted out to him
Ok. So if we chopped off a hand from every thief, would have he deserved that? Or how about hanging? We used to hang horse thieves; if we hung bank robbers, would that be just?
It's true that he shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place. But we aren't just allowed to consider whether punishments fit crimes; as citizens, it's our duty. Our government is of, by, and for the people. It's entirely reasonable for eduardordm to question the length of the sentence.
Ok. So if we chopped off a hand from every thief, would have he deserved that? Or how about hanging? We used to hang horse thieves; if we hung bank robbers, would that be just?
It's true that he shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place. But we aren't just allowed to consider whether punishments fit crimes; as citizens, it's our duty. Our government is of, by, and for the people. It's entirely reasonable for eduardordm to question the length of the sentence.
> People could (or may) have been killed over his greed for money.
Yes, but according to the OP, noone was injured. This is not Minority Report.
> That being said, I have no problems with the notion of helping ex-cons try to turn their lives around, after they've paid their debt to society
The thing is: he hasn't! We was locked up, so we could not pay for anything. The only thing that he lost was time, and society gained nothing - and incurred in even greater expenses.
If he was instead forced to pay his debt by working off, then we could say that the debt was repaid.
And, from his point of view, his debt will never be repaid, as he is now unemployable because of his police record.
I have never been convicted, arrested or even questioned by the police (US or otherwise), but the system horrifies me.
Yes, but according to the OP, noone was injured. This is not Minority Report.
> That being said, I have no problems with the notion of helping ex-cons try to turn their lives around, after they've paid their debt to society
The thing is: he hasn't! We was locked up, so we could not pay for anything. The only thing that he lost was time, and society gained nothing - and incurred in even greater expenses.
If he was instead forced to pay his debt by working off, then we could say that the debt was repaid.
And, from his point of view, his debt will never be repaid, as he is now unemployable because of his police record.
I have never been convicted, arrested or even questioned by the police (US or otherwise), but the system horrifies me.
He told me the details of his crime: No one was injured. And he has completed his entire sentence.
I'm glad, and I hope he is able to reintegrate back into society easily. There are programs like the Delancey Street program in SF that help ex-cons reintegrate by providing them with jobs and support. And then he should try to go to school and further educate himself at night time. Hopefully he gets a break, but he needs to realize it's a tough road ahead, since many people without criminal records are still unemployed, and having a felony conviction will likely make it very hard for him. If he joins a religious organization, maybe he can get help through them as well.
Unfortunately, SF is infinitely more progressive than rural Indiana, so those types of programs will be harder to come by. But this suggestion will definitely go on the list.
OK, I have to ask though, did he use a gun or a threat of a gun? Or was this just one where he had a note that said put the money in a bag this is a robbery?
He had a gun, though I don't know if it was actually displayed.
I'm taking a wild guess and claiming that you have no idea about spending about a quarter of your life time (that's if you're lucky) in prison. End of story. You cannot possibly understand what it means to be in prison for such a long time and not being free but as if you could you're claiming that he deserved what he got.
"He shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place"
It's always easy to judge in hindsight.
"If he knew that bank robbing was a crime and he committed it anyway"
So it would be 0K if he didn't know?
It's always easy to judge in hindsight.
"If he knew that bank robbing was a crime and he committed it anyway"
So it would be 0K if he didn't know?
The US prison system is messed up, but mostly with regard to nonviolent/drug offenders.
I am very libertarian, but I don't think this is a valid criticism in this case.
Robbing a bank is not "making a mistake once". Buying coke or shoplifting is making a mistake. Bank robbery is a premeditated, violent, serious crime, and society is right to punish it severely. If you're committing bank robbery, you're likely also committing lots of other crimes: assault, threats, criminal confinement, fleeing police, etc.
> First, a rant: I always get shocked about how the US justice system works, where punishing (and revenge) is obviously more important than protecting humans.
A simplistic view of how the currently policy such came about will probably do little to help change it, as arguments against it from that point will not sway people who don't believe that's the cause.
Possible other reasons someone might favor longer prison sentences (by no means exhaustive): * Crime deterrence through harsher penalties. * The perception that these are inherently bad people, and should be kept away from society for as long as possible. * Corporate/union entities that benefit from a larger prison system.
Unless you target the actual reason someone holds a view, it's hard to argue against it effectively (but not impossible, you can just provide so many negatives that whatever positives they think they get are overwhelmed).
A simplistic view of how the currently policy such came about will probably do little to help change it, as arguments against it from that point will not sway people who don't believe that's the cause.
Possible other reasons someone might favor longer prison sentences (by no means exhaustive): * Crime deterrence through harsher penalties. * The perception that these are inherently bad people, and should be kept away from society for as long as possible. * Corporate/union entities that benefit from a larger prison system.
Unless you target the actual reason someone holds a view, it's hard to argue against it effectively (but not impossible, you can just provide so many negatives that whatever positives they think they get are overwhelmed).
Remember, the US prison system is for profit. So that probably had something to do with his lengthy term.
First off, great job in being involved in this guy's life. He really needs people like you to help him get on his feet and recover.
I'd say introduce him to a recruiter who has a lot of connections and can get something going for him. If that doesn't pan out, perhaps some biz owner here on HN might hire him.
I'd say introduce him to a recruiter who has a lot of connections and can get something going for him. If that doesn't pan out, perhaps some biz owner here on HN might hire him.
Wow this is naive. Nobody is going to hire a felon parolee for anything other than menial work. I don't think there are recruiters for washing dishes.
The only hope, as the OP says, is to figure out a way to market a tech skill directly, or to start something on his own.
The only hope, as the OP says, is to figure out a way to market a tech skill directly, or to start something on his own.
Nobody is going to hire a felon parolee for anything other than menial work.
I disagree. The number of people willing to take a chance on a felon parolee might be small, but I know it's non-zero.
I disagree. The number of people willing to take a chance on a felon parolee might be small, but I know it's non-zero.
It probably depends on exactly what the crime was, but bank robbery or fraud are going to be tough.
(I'd be ok with hiring someone with a manslaughter conviction or other thing if it were not calling character into question. Or, something like a principled hacking conviction would probably be ok in most roles, although clients often care about felony status.)
(I'd be ok with hiring someone with a manslaughter conviction or other thing if it were not calling character into question. Or, something like a principled hacking conviction would probably be ok in most roles, although clients often care about felony status.)
Unfortunately getting a "job" will be difficult with a prison record, but consulting could be a good path. If you can find someone to sub-contract jobs to him he can get started (he might have to take a low rate to start with), and once he establishes himself he'll be able to win new deals himself.
As he establishes himself it'll probably be worthwhile to create a company that he can build a reputation around - that way his personal background becomes less visible.
As he establishes himself it'll probably be worthwhile to create a company that he can build a reputation around - that way his personal background becomes less visible.
Perhaps a freelancing site, such as oDesk? He can build up some basic references doing trivial technical work. He won't make much money as there will be a lot of competition, but many recruiters would rather hire from within the US if the cost made sense.
Or, he might be able to use freelancing online to establish a working relationship with a company that would hire him directly. It is just tough, the money is terrible and I think this guy is going to need more structure than working from home will provide. Self-starting is hard for anyone and our friend has had every minute regulated for the past 18 years.
He's going to have a lot of employment difficulties due to a felony record.
I'd probably suggest stuff like online task markets or contracting, particularly on low-sensitivity stuff. The other thing that might work would be creating software/services for sale directly.
I'd probably suggest stuff like online task markets or contracting, particularly on low-sensitivity stuff. The other thing that might work would be creating software/services for sale directly.
> and have been telling him that his only chance of financial independence is through writing code
I don't get this. Neither will "writing code" make him more "independent" than other jobs nor is it likely that he will get a job in this field.
I don't get this. Neither will "writing code" make him more "independent" than other jobs nor is it likely that he will get a job in this field.
I see a career in code as being one based on merit, versus others that are based on credentials or politics. I believe that if he can make things that people appreciate, then the money will follow. In theory, right?
"and have been telling him that his only chance of financial independence is through writing code"
There are tons of trade skills that he could learn quickly at a local community college. Plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, hvac repair, etc.. can make seriously good money and his felony would likely not be as big of a factor either. Especially if he went into business himself.
There are tons of trade skills that he could learn quickly at a local community college. Plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, hvac repair, etc.. can make seriously good money and his felony would likely not be as big of a factor either. Especially if he went into business himself.
His felony wouldn't be a big deal for employers who would potentially be sending him into people's homes on a regular basis?
I have to strongly disagree with that one.
I have to strongly disagree with that one.
There are tons of trades that do not require you to ever leave a machine shop or electronics lab. If said person is very capable of coding then I would also strongly encourage them to pursue it, but to convince them that it's their only chance? That statement seemed to be a bit of a stretch. Whatever endeavor though, I wish them luck.
A large percentage of work for plumbers, electricians, HVAC, etc. is in new construction. It might be an issue for some employers, but it won't be for others.
A good friend of mine is a felon and a union master electrician. He makes a decent living, when there's work, and his past doesn't seem to make a difference to his employers. There are definitely many paths one can take; code is a really good one, let's be honest, but it's not the only one.
I believe this is a possibility that is dependent on state licensing laws. In some states, the licensing body may not automatically disqualify felons. In other states, they make exceptions on a case-by-case basis. And in the third category, it is automatically disqualifying. Something to definitely look into, though.
Firstly, thank you for your humanity.
There's a guy on Quora named Michael Santos that spent 25 years in prison for drug dealing. He was released last August. While incarcerated, he got his degree, got married, and wrote a book. He has written extensively on the prison experience, and how one can come out on top. He's also quite willing to answer any questions:
http://www.quora.com/Michael-Santos-4
You may have to sign up to Quora to read his answers, but it's totally worth it, if just for his perspectives alone.
Once again, I salute you for what you're doing. I don't know if you've seen the movie 'The Shawshank Redemption', but there's something very "Andy Dufresne" about what you're doing. Through your humanity, you're giving this man dignity. Salaam.
There's a guy on Quora named Michael Santos that spent 25 years in prison for drug dealing. He was released last August. While incarcerated, he got his degree, got married, and wrote a book. He has written extensively on the prison experience, and how one can come out on top. He's also quite willing to answer any questions:
http://www.quora.com/Michael-Santos-4
You may have to sign up to Quora to read his answers, but it's totally worth it, if just for his perspectives alone.
Once again, I salute you for what you're doing. I don't know if you've seen the movie 'The Shawshank Redemption', but there's something very "Andy Dufresne" about what you're doing. Through your humanity, you're giving this man dignity. Salaam.
Wow, thanks for posting about Michael here, I've met him and he's an awesome guy, and he's a very driven and intelligent person.
If you don't want to create a Quora account, you can probably contact Michael on his website as well: http://michaelsantos.com/
I haven't checked recently, but he had been including some of his Quora content on his blog as well.
If you don't want to create a Quora account, you can probably contact Michael on his website as well: http://michaelsantos.com/
I haven't checked recently, but he had been including some of his Quora content on his blog as well.
Just a thought I had, and maybe someone can help me, but if a convicted felon has a hard time getting an apartment, can they start an LLC (or any other business entity) and then have the business rent the apt? I'm assuming the management would still like to see see financial history, so probably an aged LLC or corp would be best?
Saying "nobody's going to hire an ex-felon, wash dishes" is very encouraging guys. :S
This is someone who already has paid his debt to society. Why continue to damn him after he's trying to work his way up again. I'd rather be naive and give someone like him a second chance. Unfortunately I don't have a lot to offer at the moment but I can seem to remember from the "Help HN, I'm homeless" thread that there are many people on HN who are willing (and able) to help someone out in need.
This is someone who already has paid his debt to society. Why continue to damn him after he's trying to work his way up again. I'd rather be naive and give someone like him a second chance. Unfortunately I don't have a lot to offer at the moment but I can seem to remember from the "Help HN, I'm homeless" thread that there are many people on HN who are willing (and able) to help someone out in need.
I would tell him congrats for going through all this with a positive attitude and I wish him the best of luck in his programming career. As for financial independence, may I suggest that he start on elance with a very cheap price to get experience and build a reputation. A beautiful portfolio website really help (At first there would no "past project"; Just a beautiful splash page offering services with X years of experience; then best projects could be added as they are finished.) Also, it's easier to get paid more and be taken if you get specialized in marketing/SEO/business strategy. It's very hard to compete on elance with a psd->html 8$/hours. Lastly, may I suggest that he assist some weekly tech event in his city.. if you say he's got few friends, that would be a good way to meet people sharing his own passion.
#1: Learn Rails - i would suggest a few rails cast a day
#2: Make a few sites; I will help w/ this as much as he needs
#3: As you make sites blog daily about your progress learning
Once you feel comfortable post on job sites, ODesk etc... and start building up your reputation.
my email is on profile he can email me or you (OP) can
#2: Make a few sites; I will help w/ this as much as he needs
#3: As you make sites blog daily about your progress learning
Once you feel comfortable post on job sites, ODesk etc... and start building up your reputation.
my email is on profile he can email me or you (OP) can
Do you have any thoughts on this remote Rails class:
http://www.gotealeaf.com/
I'd be willing to pay the tuition if it's really useful for someone who has still not ever seen/used a web browser.
I'd be willing to pay the tuition if it's really useful for someone who has still not ever seen/used a web browser.
It would take more information to properly determine what the best starting poing would be for him; but if he has not used a web browser I suggests starting w/
1. email setup 2. google 3. facebook
etc... basically as much basic computer usage as possible; IMO rails classes like that and pretty much everyone else is going to assume their audience is comfortable w/ computers and other modern day technologies.
1. email setup 2. google 3. facebook
etc... basically as much basic computer usage as possible; IMO rails classes like that and pretty much everyone else is going to assume their audience is comfortable w/ computers and other modern day technologies.
So this is one of things I was specifically looking for: Exactly what does he need to learn immediately? What is the best set of tools he should experience and submerge himself with to really understand the internet, both as a consumer and as a potential creator?
There was a recent discussion[1] on Reddit, about how a guy with a criminal record could get a job and what-not. It was a somewhat different situation, but I expect some of the discussion there might be applicable here as well.
[1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/jobs/comments/16jqz3/i_have_a_crimin...
My own comment included the sentiment that having a criminal background doesn't mean you'll never get a job (even a good job), but that it definitely makes it harder, so you have to find ways to compensate for that. I mean, for at least certain classes of crimes, I'd hire someone with a criminal record, and I know there are other people out there who feel the same way.
[1]: http://www.reddit.com/r/jobs/comments/16jqz3/i_have_a_crimin...
My own comment included the sentiment that having a criminal background doesn't mean you'll never get a job (even a good job), but that it definitely makes it harder, so you have to find ways to compensate for that. I mean, for at least certain classes of crimes, I'd hire someone with a criminal record, and I know there are other people out there who feel the same way.
If he is near Indianapolis, it could help to get involved in the local hacker scene. We have a pretty decent number of meetings and the like he could attend. See the calendar at http://indyhackers.org.
I like to think we're pretty merit-based here, but it is a largely conservative state (though this city can be pretty "blue" compared to its surroundings), so I could be wrong. Knowing people is a significant portion of the battle, and just showing up to events can go a long way.
I like to think we're pretty merit-based here, but it is a largely conservative state (though this city can be pretty "blue" compared to its surroundings), so I could be wrong. Knowing people is a significant portion of the battle, and just showing up to events can go a long way.
Unfortunately, he will be starting out in Michigan City at a halfway house. But maybe Indianapolis is someplace he can transfer to? Are there any other hacker hubs in Indiana? West Lafayette? Valparaiso?
I commend you for doing the right things. The system inherently goes against it's only goal, by sending people out that are almost guaranteed to commit another crime and unleashing even more upset people onto the population. Instead of keeping us safe it makes progressively more savage criminals, people that have to hurt or kill in order to survive in prison don't generally come out better for it.
I think the fact that you are even doing all this will keep your friend on the right track, that he has a friend to talk to may be the thing that keeps him from a depression that will send him towards a life of crime.
I think the fact that you are even doing all this will keep your friend on the right track, that he has a friend to talk to may be the thing that keeps him from a depression that will send him towards a life of crime.
Long time lurker, created an account just to add a comment here. Your friend's situation hits close to home as I spent most of my 20's in prison and am a software developer.
He can move forward and be reasonably successful despite his felony record. There are plenty of people in the world who will be willing to look past that and give him a chance, but to be balanced, on the flip side there are equally many who will not. It saddens me to hear he has little family, it is hard to underestimate the value of personal support to a recent ex-con.
Job hunting can be difficult. Many organizations will flat out not consider you because of the felony record. I had good luck with smaller companies, where you met the boss and had the chance to make a personal impression, where I was given the opportunity to explain why I was sent to prison and why the employer should take what is admittedly a bigger chance on hiring me.
But here's the kicker with software development. I was already good at it before prison. It was no challenge to demonstrate some level of skill that outweighed the uncertainty of hiring a felon. In your friend's case, this may or may not work as well.
It's great that he had the chance to work with computers and Access in prison. I had similar opportunities and in fact learned .Net during my stay, letting me come back into the job market with relevant, polished skills.
My first job out of prison was the type that gives you plenty of fodder for The Daily WTF, but it was a job and it was much easier to get the second job than the first. If your friend can get his foot in the door - at any job - he'll have the opportunity to prove himself and may find that the disadvantage of a felonious past fades quickly into the background. My experience has been that if you can actually do useful work as a programmer and show this to potential employers, you will quickly get past the felony tag. A programmer that can produce is still a hot commodity at least in my area (and Indiana is likely no different).
He can move forward and be reasonably successful despite his felony record. There are plenty of people in the world who will be willing to look past that and give him a chance, but to be balanced, on the flip side there are equally many who will not. It saddens me to hear he has little family, it is hard to underestimate the value of personal support to a recent ex-con.
Job hunting can be difficult. Many organizations will flat out not consider you because of the felony record. I had good luck with smaller companies, where you met the boss and had the chance to make a personal impression, where I was given the opportunity to explain why I was sent to prison and why the employer should take what is admittedly a bigger chance on hiring me.
But here's the kicker with software development. I was already good at it before prison. It was no challenge to demonstrate some level of skill that outweighed the uncertainty of hiring a felon. In your friend's case, this may or may not work as well.
It's great that he had the chance to work with computers and Access in prison. I had similar opportunities and in fact learned .Net during my stay, letting me come back into the job market with relevant, polished skills.
My first job out of prison was the type that gives you plenty of fodder for The Daily WTF, but it was a job and it was much easier to get the second job than the first. If your friend can get his foot in the door - at any job - he'll have the opportunity to prove himself and may find that the disadvantage of a felonious past fades quickly into the background. My experience has been that if you can actually do useful work as a programmer and show this to potential employers, you will quickly get past the felony tag. A programmer that can produce is still a hot commodity at least in my area (and Indiana is likely no different).
You said you were a good software developer before prison - was your crime a white collar one? Do you mind sharing what you were convicted for?
Drugs, I had a brief encounter with methamphetamine in my late teens that landed me a hefty sentence for selling small amounts to support my habit (12 year sentence, though between normal parole time and early release via prison boot camp for drug offenders I served about half that).
I have a friend who is in a halfway house after finishing a two year sentence for manufacture. He's lucky, and I hope to get him working soon. He's made emulators since he was 12 (now 28). Good luck and god bless.
I'm happy that it sounds like he'll be fine, thanks to his own drive and of course the help you're offering (a laptop, smartphone, and a mobile hotspot are pretty helpful, really).
Best of luck to him.
Best of luck to him.
Help him setup an account on Facebook (if he doesn't have one already) so he can log on to Codecademy & start learning Python there in his spare time with his laptop & mobile hotspot.
I would focus on helping him build community, the more community he has around him the better he'll cope, integrate and thrive.
So say your getting him in on ruby or python or mobile dev, start taking him along to as many meetups as you can find. A bar camp or RailsCamp would be great to.
The hackerspace movement is very open and accepting and beginner friendly IMHO, I'd get him in on that too.
If he can build up a community in tech around him then the code part has a good foundation to thrive in. Think of his needs in terms of 'structures for success'.
So say your getting him in on ruby or python or mobile dev, start taking him along to as many meetups as you can find. A bar camp or RailsCamp would be great to.
The hackerspace movement is very open and accepting and beginner friendly IMHO, I'd get him in on that too.
If he can build up a community in tech around him then the code part has a good foundation to thrive in. Think of his needs in terms of 'structures for success'.
This was excellent, thanks. I wish he was not required to be in Indiana. I'll be moving to Chicago soon and that is a much more conducive environment to growing this kind of community (compared to northwest Indiana).
Even with a masters degree, he's certainly going to have a smaller pool of job opportunities than a non-felon just by the fact he is a felon. But that doesn't mean there is not a bunch of opportunities for him. I've worked with several felons at different places. Programmers and IT. Not every company cares about that. Just like not every company cares to have you pass a drug test. But he should probably forget about any jobs in the financial sector as they tend to be pretty strict on hiring felons (and being a bank robber is probably a double whammy). My only advice would be to be totally up front about his past and don't let the "no thank yous" get him down.
However, I would say that he might be facing almost as much trouble getting over the fact that he is 40 with very little industry experience. Honestly, this might actually be worse to some companies. I have no idea what he had to work with in prison, but 18 years away from real world tech might have him slightly behind the curve. Maybe my perception of technology in prison is not accurate.
However, I would say that he might be facing almost as much trouble getting over the fact that he is 40 with very little industry experience. Honestly, this might actually be worse to some companies. I have no idea what he had to work with in prison, but 18 years away from real world tech might have him slightly behind the curve. Maybe my perception of technology in prison is not accurate.
His technology-paradigm is definitely not a modern one. For example, he doesn't really understand open source software; just the concept of it--and how good it can be.
My #1 bit of advice would be for him to read How to Win Friends and Influence People.
Yes, really. If you need to brush up on your social skills, it's the go-to guide. You can practice it even without having close personal or business relationships… on anybody you meet on the street, in a shop, online, etc. It's a little bit cheesy, but not at all scummy… the basic advice is something everyone should follow, and yet most do not. Following the advice is something that can set anyone apart from the crowd (in a positive way)... ESPECIALLY in the tech world.
#2 With those social skills, and what he's learning technically, my second bit of advice would be to tackle it on. Be up front about the mistake. When he applies for a job or talks to someone, he should tell them. Not Scarlet Letter-style, but in a way like this:
"I came by xyz lessons the hard way. I was really stupid at jkl age… it's hard to believe how stupid! But there's nobody more than me who knows the value of abc."
Help him figure out how this experience has made him BETTER. Sometimes the hard way is the best way to learn something.
It sounds like he's learned a lot in his time behind bars… dedication, for one. Most people never complete a master's much less in such adverse circumstances. Maybe he learned the lesson about making decisions in emotional circumstances. Maybe now he's a calm, cool, cautious individual… or maybe he's just not going to jump the gun. Maybe he learned something about surviving in tough social situations. How to befriend difficult people. Or something else, equally powerful.
One thing: If he hides his past, it'll only come back to bite him, when people find out about it via background checks. If he owns it, and sounds mature, and honest, then that'll be a feather in his cap. He didn't murder anyone; he made a crime against property. You can recover from that, socially.
#3 He should write about it. He should write about learning programming (or whatever he decides to tackle), doing his master's program in prison, will he finish his PhD, etc. People trust a person who is honest about his flaws (maybe more than they should, sometimes!), and they love a person who can communicate. They also love somebody who they can learn from. Plus writing is a very valuable skill, and it could do a lot to rehabilitate a person's image.
Best of luck to your friend.
Yes, really. If you need to brush up on your social skills, it's the go-to guide. You can practice it even without having close personal or business relationships… on anybody you meet on the street, in a shop, online, etc. It's a little bit cheesy, but not at all scummy… the basic advice is something everyone should follow, and yet most do not. Following the advice is something that can set anyone apart from the crowd (in a positive way)... ESPECIALLY in the tech world.
#2 With those social skills, and what he's learning technically, my second bit of advice would be to tackle it on. Be up front about the mistake. When he applies for a job or talks to someone, he should tell them. Not Scarlet Letter-style, but in a way like this:
"I came by xyz lessons the hard way. I was really stupid at jkl age… it's hard to believe how stupid! But there's nobody more than me who knows the value of abc."
Help him figure out how this experience has made him BETTER. Sometimes the hard way is the best way to learn something.
It sounds like he's learned a lot in his time behind bars… dedication, for one. Most people never complete a master's much less in such adverse circumstances. Maybe he learned the lesson about making decisions in emotional circumstances. Maybe now he's a calm, cool, cautious individual… or maybe he's just not going to jump the gun. Maybe he learned something about surviving in tough social situations. How to befriend difficult people. Or something else, equally powerful.
One thing: If he hides his past, it'll only come back to bite him, when people find out about it via background checks. If he owns it, and sounds mature, and honest, then that'll be a feather in his cap. He didn't murder anyone; he made a crime against property. You can recover from that, socially.
#3 He should write about it. He should write about learning programming (or whatever he decides to tackle), doing his master's program in prison, will he finish his PhD, etc. People trust a person who is honest about his flaws (maybe more than they should, sometimes!), and they love a person who can communicate. They also love somebody who they can learn from. Plus writing is a very valuable skill, and it could do a lot to rehabilitate a person's image.
Best of luck to your friend.
I'm a convicted federal felon. To top it off, it's a computer fraud conviction involving a former employer.
I used to think I'd never even be able to flip burgers for pay. I'm actually probably right - McDonalds would never hire me. But since my conviction I've worked a decent string of IT jobs.
First, he needs to understand that there are a lot of people with a criminal record. I've met plenty of people with criminal records (mostly DUI, fraud, and drug charges) that have been able to find normal work, raise kids, volunteer, etc. Every time I tell someone my story, they tell me that their gainfully employed brother / uncle / co-worker / etc. has a criminal record that I used to think would force someone into washing dishes for the rest of their career.
Second, he needs to make a clean break with anyone shady. I've had tempting inquiries and offers from friends-of-friends. He needs to find new friends. Take up a hobby, join a church, go to user groups and meetups, go back to school, etc. Something to find a new set of friends that will occupy his time with things that won't land him in trouble.
He should be able to leave Indiana, especially if he has work lined up. I'm a little unclear on that since I wasn't in the state system, but I think he can be somehow transferred to another jurisdiction's probation office or remotely report in.
I don't agree that his only chance is writing code, but it's certainly not a bad approach. I'd particularly suggest mobile apps. It's not steady work, but jobs on Fiverr.com could bring in some cash while he looks. There's also affiliate blogging / Pinterest Pinning. I could probably sit in a public library, pinning Amazon links a few hours a day and earn enough to get by.
I used to think I'd never even be able to flip burgers for pay. I'm actually probably right - McDonalds would never hire me. But since my conviction I've worked a decent string of IT jobs.
First, he needs to understand that there are a lot of people with a criminal record. I've met plenty of people with criminal records (mostly DUI, fraud, and drug charges) that have been able to find normal work, raise kids, volunteer, etc. Every time I tell someone my story, they tell me that their gainfully employed brother / uncle / co-worker / etc. has a criminal record that I used to think would force someone into washing dishes for the rest of their career.
Second, he needs to make a clean break with anyone shady. I've had tempting inquiries and offers from friends-of-friends. He needs to find new friends. Take up a hobby, join a church, go to user groups and meetups, go back to school, etc. Something to find a new set of friends that will occupy his time with things that won't land him in trouble.
He should be able to leave Indiana, especially if he has work lined up. I'm a little unclear on that since I wasn't in the state system, but I think he can be somehow transferred to another jurisdiction's probation office or remotely report in.
I don't agree that his only chance is writing code, but it's certainly not a bad approach. I'd particularly suggest mobile apps. It's not steady work, but jobs on Fiverr.com could bring in some cash while he looks. There's also affiliate blogging / Pinterest Pinning. I could probably sit in a public library, pinning Amazon links a few hours a day and earn enough to get by.
"I could probably sit in a public library, pinning Amazon links a few hours a day and earn enough to get by."
--Really? I would have assumed that mTurk would have dropped the floor on this type of work.
--Really? I would have assumed that mTurk would have dropped the floor on this type of work.
Well, I don't pin a lot of Amazon links, but I make a bit from the ones I have pinned. I grind out about $200 a month now mostly from other affiliate programs and I'm not really trying. It's a side income that I keep thinking about expanding since it's working. I need to teach my kids to do it...
It takes forever to get paid though - maybe 3-4 month lag time.
It takes forever to get paid though - maybe 3-4 month lag time.
I heard there was a military bootcamp program you could go through and get your criminal record scratched. Is this applicable, or am I confusing things?
Since he's a vet, have him talk to the VA. They have this http://vetsuccess.gov/ and especially this http://www.benefits.va.gov/vow/ Also see if he has service-related disability and thus can use VA Vocational Rehab. http://www.vba.va.gov/bln/vre/ Even if he doesn't have a disability rating now, if he can trace something back to his time in the military he can still get a rating and be eligible. With the skillset he has they ought to be able to help him out somehow. I'm not sure how the prison service will tie in, but it's worth a shot.
Along a similar vein he might try his local American Legion or VFW chapter for assistance.
Along a similar vein he might try his local American Legion or VFW chapter for assistance.
don't go back! don't do anything that will cause you to go back!
If his offense was because of drugs/alcohol abuse (which is likely as something like 80% of crimes are), he should seek out Alcoholics Anonymous/Narcotics Anonymous. His incarceration experience there would be commonplace.
Many people in those groups have "run-ins" with law enforcement and a large percentage are themselves felons (DUI/Drug possession) and are on probation.
I would also recommend he focus his energy (initially) on trades which have a rougher edge, like construction & oil services, metalworking, etc...They are tough jobs, no doubt.
However, these fields have plenty of opportunity, a chance to make a decent living, get paid weekly (sometimes in cash), and the people are less subjected to background checks.
Once he is off probation and can explain his "gap" with real work history, he will be more likely to be accepted in society. He can then focus on education and re-training.
Many people in those groups have "run-ins" with law enforcement and a large percentage are themselves felons (DUI/Drug possession) and are on probation.
I would also recommend he focus his energy (initially) on trades which have a rougher edge, like construction & oil services, metalworking, etc...They are tough jobs, no doubt.
However, these fields have plenty of opportunity, a chance to make a decent living, get paid weekly (sometimes in cash), and the people are less subjected to background checks.
Once he is off probation and can explain his "gap" with real work history, he will be more likely to be accepted in society. He can then focus on education and re-training.
You are indeed the genuine loyal friend that he needs to get re-established. Some of the comments here are good suggestions.
Assuming that you are also involved in IT (well you do read HN) are you able to help him get some consulting gigs? If he is motivated and able to get some basic support, then doing small, well priced jobs for local businesses is a great way to ramp up.
Being a consultant avoids the employer background checks and helps him avoid the low pay trap of menial jobs. You may need to monitor his manners and speech as after 18 years, he may have picked up some habits that are uncool in our current society.
Best of luck to you both.
Assuming that you are also involved in IT (well you do read HN) are you able to help him get some consulting gigs? If he is motivated and able to get some basic support, then doing small, well priced jobs for local businesses is a great way to ramp up.
Being a consultant avoids the employer background checks and helps him avoid the low pay trap of menial jobs. You may need to monitor his manners and speech as after 18 years, he may have picked up some habits that are uncool in our current society.
Best of luck to you both.
He seems like a real self starter. If he has an aptitude for programming I'd recommend getting into mobile development as an independent contractor.
I'm not saying it would be easy. I started teaching myself iOS at the end of my sophomore year (4 years ago). In six months I felt comfortable accepting contracts off of elance. By the time I graduated I was employed full time as a contractor. It's just gotten better from there.
Mobile is one place where your past doesn't really matter. You either can or you can't. And your past doesn't matter much.
I'm not saying it would be easy. I started teaching myself iOS at the end of my sophomore year (4 years ago). In six months I felt comfortable accepting contracts off of elance. By the time I graduated I was employed full time as a contractor. It's just gotten better from there.
Mobile is one place where your past doesn't really matter. You either can or you can't. And your past doesn't matter much.
Why/how is mobile any different from regular web development?
A few reasons...
1) Mobile is hot right now and skilled developers are still hard to come by. Employers who need a mobile developer are in a sellers market.
2) High quality apps can be built with a single skill set, if you know your SDK. The good web guys I know need to be experts at multiple languages, architectures, and services. I have one skill that I'm good at, but because no one else has it my career has gotten a nice jump to it compared to my classmates.
3) There is room to be disruptive. The web is 20 years old. iOS development is 4 years old and Android is three. There's a lot less baggage in mobile and a lot more room for a small team of developers to impact the platform.
4) It's cheap to get started with. For under $750 you can put together a serviceable lab to work in.
The bottom line is there are low barriers to entry and a high rate of return.
The bottom line is there are low barriers to entry and a high rate of return.
Obviously an 18 year felony is much more serious but I wonder how tech companies view misdemeanors such as DUI, Possession of Marijuana, Domestic Battery, etc?
Tech companies in the bay area would probably wonder WTF you got arrested for marijuana or other minor drug offenses.
DUI I think would be a more serious issue, depending on the area. In the Bay Area, DUIs are pretty frowned upon, since there are other transportation options. I think they're much more accepted in rural areas.
I know plenty of tech people who have convictions for assault (bar fights), drugs, computer crime (particularly as kids), etc.
DUI I think would be a more serious issue, depending on the area. In the Bay Area, DUIs are pretty frowned upon, since there are other transportation options. I think they're much more accepted in rural areas.
I know plenty of tech people who have convictions for assault (bar fights), drugs, computer crime (particularly as kids), etc.
I wonder if tech companies in general would be more tolerant since they tend to have more laid back cultures compared to corporate environments.
Sounds like Les Miserables...
[deleted]
He's very familiar with business logic, as he was the MS Access dba for the prison factory. And about six months ago I sent him a few conceptual programming books that you all suggested he read. He paid for his own master's degree (distance learning program in organizational dynamics), and even started a phd--though prison officials would not let him conduct the necessary research to complete it (and he ran out of money).
He's about 40, has no family, and virtually no friends (outside of prison). Army veteran, so he has health insurance covered. I think he has about $1000 saved. I'll be giving him a laptop, smartphone, and mobile hotspot. He won't be able to leave Indiana for a few years (terms of supervised release).
Would really appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice. I'll compile all of it and make a list for him. Thanks.