A Letter from Tim Cook on Maps(apple.com)
apple.com
A Letter from Tim Cook on Maps
http://www.apple.com/letter-from-tim-cook-on-maps/
511 comments
They don't want to partner with anybody. All that would do is recreate the problem they faced with Google: losing control and sooner or later negatively affecting user experience as New Partner Co. begins to favor its interests over whatever future interests Apple may or may not have.
Far better to rip the band-aid off now, tune the dataset over time, and ultimately emerge with a better overall experience that you now control completely. Already the system-wide integration of mapping is far superior in that regard. That just wasn't going to happen with Google or any other partner which would forever live as a walled garden of an App.
Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem.
Far better to rip the band-aid off now, tune the dataset over time, and ultimately emerge with a better overall experience that you now control completely. Already the system-wide integration of mapping is far superior in that regard. That just wasn't going to happen with Google or any other partner which would forever live as a walled garden of an App.
Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem.
Mapping isn't a finite problem. If you read about the Coastline Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_paradox), every map is based on abstraction. You can get more and more detail but there will always be parts that are simplified and abstracted. It's like trying to get to the door by going half the distance each time. Eventually, it'll be a small distance (and not a big problem, which is generally the case for Google Maps) but you'll never completely solve it.
> Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem.
Not if you live in the area that has very low resolution maps. IMHO "finite problem" is an antithesis to accurate maps. Mapping requires constant improvement. For example roads in the area where I live have been modified 3 times in last 5 years.
Not if you live in the area that has very low resolution maps. IMHO "finite problem" is an antithesis to accurate maps. Mapping requires constant improvement. For example roads in the area where I live have been modified 3 times in last 5 years.
>>They don't want to partner with anybody
They run iCloud on Windows Azure, why not run their map service using Bing Maps data?
They run iCloud on Windows Azure, why not run their map service using Bing Maps data?
Azure is a redundancy service. They have their own data centre that hosts iCloud.
Just curious: is that "known as a fact" now? I'd imagine that means that their own data center for iCloud is running Windows Server, too. Which doesn't really seem any less likely in today's world than Linux servers but it would be interesting just in terms of how much you could blow Apple fans' minds if you could travel back 15 years and tell them that.
EDIT: I'm wrong, as pointed out below; Azure isn't just for Windows Server.
EDIT: I'm wrong, as pointed out below; Azure isn't just for Windows Server.
You can run Linux in Windows Azure.
http://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/manage/linux/
http://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/manage/linux/
Isn't that a very recent feature?
As far as I can tell, iCloud and Linux on Azure were both announced in June 2012.
1/3 the quality? Have you used the maps? I agree that they're not amazing, but in my experience the complaints about low quality seem overblown.
It's a first generation product. By putting it out there and getting actual user feedback, this should accelerate the development.
It's a first generation product. By putting it out there and getting actual user feedback, this should accelerate the development.
Maps become exponentially better the closer they get to accurate.
Even if Apple has, let's say, 90% of the map data/information that Google does, the minute you are sent to the wrong location, or to a store that doesn't exist, or try to get transit directions and can't, or get routed via the most convoluted route possible to your destination, the Maps app has failed.
Even if Apple has, let's say, 90% of the map data/information that Google does, the minute you are sent to the wrong location, or to a store that doesn't exist, or try to get transit directions and can't, or get routed via the most convoluted route possible to your destination, the Maps app has failed.
Maps is a smartphone killer app - I remember my friend being able to map (in a rudimentary displkay) nearby restaurants on a 2004 windows mobile phone and thinking how awesome that was. Just like I was amazed when the iPhone completely blew away the competition in 2007.
However, is it a mission-critical app? What percentage of the userbase actually needs maps on a day to day basis? What did you do in 2005 when your GPS completely failed? You call the destination... it's not like you don't have a phone in your hand. Failing that, you ask a nearby stranger.
I presume Apple went ahead because Maps is likely less important to their userbase than, say, the Music app and definitely less critical than the browser.
However, is it a mission-critical app? What percentage of the userbase actually needs maps on a day to day basis? What did you do in 2005 when your GPS completely failed? You call the destination... it's not like you don't have a phone in your hand. Failing that, you ask a nearby stranger.
I presume Apple went ahead because Maps is likely less important to their userbase than, say, the Music app and definitely less critical than the browser.
> However, is it a mission-critical app? What percentage of the userbase actually needs maps on a day to day basis? What did you do in 2005 when your GPS completely failed?
It's not "mission-critical," but by that criterion neither is any part of iOS that's not talk and text and maaaybe basic web browsing. Mapping is surely one of the bigger raisons d'être for smartphones, otherwise people might as well buy an S40 Nokia.
It's not "mission-critical," but by that criterion neither is any part of iOS that's not talk and text and maaaybe basic web browsing. Mapping is surely one of the bigger raisons d'être for smartphones, otherwise people might as well buy an S40 Nokia.
I've experienced every one of those scenarios in the last week. And I live a few miles from Apple headquarters!
Turn by turn navigation is awesome though. Once they've worked out the kinks I'm sure this experience will be better overall.
Turn by turn navigation is awesome though. Once they've worked out the kinks I'm sure this experience will be better overall.
I keep hearing from iphone users that phrase almost verbatim: "Turn by turn navigation is awesome though".
If it's so awesome, why didn't you buy a standalone GPS or an Android phone over the last few years? Because it's nifty but for most iPhone users this is not a must-have feature. Which is why Apple can get away with shipping a crap maps app.
If it's so awesome, why didn't you buy a standalone GPS or an Android phone over the last few years? Because it's nifty but for most iPhone users this is not a must-have feature. Which is why Apple can get away with shipping a crap maps app.
Or, even easier, a navigation app from Apple's app store...
Do any of those work with Siri? That's the big value for me. When the new Maps work it is pure magic (sorry for the iMeme but it really is).
-Looking straight ahead, grab phone and hold down Home button. -Siri chirps -"I need directions to foo" -"Here are directions to foo" -"In X miles turn Y on N"
The only time I touched the phone was to hold down the Home button. Never once looked away from the road. It's amazing.
-Looking straight ahead, grab phone and hold down Home button. -Siri chirps -"I need directions to foo" -"Here are directions to foo" -"In X miles turn Y on N"
The only time I touched the phone was to hold down the Home button. Never once looked away from the road. It's amazing.
A quick test on my Android phone (Desire HD running 4.1) shows that Google Now works the same way. Voice search always existed on Android, but it was certainly less polished around 2.2. Can't tell how it worked before as it never understood my accent, but then again, neither does Siri.
Edit: Two presses if you want audio instructions. Google Now opens maps which doesn't do audio instructions apparently rather than navigation which does. There's a button for navigation in the maps app.
Edit: Two presses if you want audio instructions. Google Now opens maps which doesn't do audio instructions apparently rather than navigation which does. There's a button for navigation in the maps app.
When the CEO of the company writes a personal apology, I think we can stop saying complaints about low quality are overblown.
[deleted]
Sure, why assess the issue directly when we could infer things from a reaction to reactions to the issue?
Easily 1/3 the quality. What good is a map if it is incorrect? An incorrect map isn't 1/3 worse than a correct one, it's just worthless. Actually worse than worthless since with no map you at least know when you're lost. Apple's maps are riddled with errors and inaccuracies and thus it's not usable (to me at least). I won't set off to a destination with a map I don't trust, so for me the difference between the two is a map I can use and a map I cannot use.
I'm glad nobody told that to Google when they were getting started.
Even in 2010, 5 years after they launched, they got the border between Nicaragua and Costa Rica wrong. This rendered Google Maps worthless. They should have just shelved the whole project right then.
Don't even get me started on Waldseemüller. So much worse than worthless!
Even in 2010, 5 years after they launched, they got the border between Nicaragua and Costa Rica wrong. This rendered Google Maps worthless. They should have just shelved the whole project right then.
Don't even get me started on Waldseemüller. So much worse than worthless!
If Google had started their mapping service by removing working maps for tens of millions of people it would have been a major disaster too.
I'd say it's much worse than 1/3rd the quality. It's absolutely terrible! The data for London, where I live, is full of misspellings; at least one tube station is missing (Monument, in the heart of the financial district); and it fairly often seems to use an arbitrary street name as the name for an entire district. I wouldn't trust it to navigate me anywhere!
From a user's perspective (which is what I am in this context, as are the rest of us) it's a sixth-generation product that's a substantial step backwards from the fifth generation.
From a reality perspective, Apple Maps is a first-generation product.
And while you may have considered it a "fifth generation product", Google Maps went virtually untouched between iOS 1.1.3 and iOS 5.1. Although its map data was very accurate, its feature set was sorely lacking when compared to Google's map app on Android.
I sympathize with people who have encountered inaccuracies, but that hasn't been my experience so far. Hopefully, this will get worked out and we'll end up with a map app that is both accurate and has a competitive feature set.
And while you may have considered it a "fifth generation product", Google Maps went virtually untouched between iOS 1.1.3 and iOS 5.1. Although its map data was very accurate, its feature set was sorely lacking when compared to Google's map app on Android.
I sympathize with people who have encountered inaccuracies, but that hasn't been my experience so far. Hopefully, this will get worked out and we'll end up with a map app that is both accurate and has a competitive feature set.
I know, right? They're about 80% as good as Google maps for me. They do all the same things, but admittedly I haven't done obscure turn by turn (then again, it didn't do turn by turn at all before...).
I have not once heard people complaining about Apple Maps complain about the turn by turn.
There are two companies that have done the legwork to acquire a really really good database of mapping information:
* TeleAtlas, which is in bed with Google
* Navteq, which is owned by Nokia, which has a deal to provide maps to Bing
So now maps is one of the few areas where both Google/Android and Microsoft/Nokia have a blatant advantage over Apple. Why would they want to give that up?
* TeleAtlas, which is in bed with Google
* Navteq, which is owned by Nokia, which has a deal to provide maps to Bing
So now maps is one of the few areas where both Google/Android and Microsoft/Nokia have a blatant advantage over Apple. Why would they want to give that up?
Err... What? Teleatlas is owned by TomTom who is currently in bed with ...Apple!
What Google does have is that they partner with whomever has the best available information in the area of interest (check out the copyright info when you scroll around the world on google maps on the web) and augment that with streetview, Yellow Pages, crowdsourced info from Android, etc (and vetted by hand)
What Google does have is that they partner with whomever has the best available information in the area of interest (check out the copyright info when you scroll around the world on google maps on the web) and augment that with streetview, Yellow Pages, crowdsourced info from Android, etc (and vetted by hand)
Thank you for this input that seems obvious, but appears to be overlooked by most in this thread.
It also strikes me that Apple Maps do not have a web interface (unless I'm wrong). In my experience, anytime something I care about in my neighborhood is misplaced on Google Maps, I use the web interface to correct the location. Without this ability, I imagine that it could take Apple a long time to reach parity with Google Maps.
It also strikes me that Apple Maps do not have a web interface (unless I'm wrong). In my experience, anytime something I care about in my neighborhood is misplaced on Google Maps, I use the web interface to correct the location. Without this ability, I imagine that it could take Apple a long time to reach parity with Google Maps.
Microsoft's #1 enemy right now would most likely be Google -- Balmer has been waging a war on the online front with Bing, and so far, has been losing pretty badly.
As they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend -- partnering with Apple would boost their Bing Maps market share into double digit percentage growth, all the while taking Google's map market share down. Even if you know the relationship won't last long and that in the end you'll have another competitor in the space, the rewards far outweigh the risks.
It's far better to take down the king and fight for the throne than to always be a peasant.
As they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend -- partnering with Apple would boost their Bing Maps market share into double digit percentage growth, all the while taking Google's map market share down. Even if you know the relationship won't last long and that in the end you'll have another competitor in the space, the rewards far outweigh the risks.
It's far better to take down the king and fight for the throne than to always be a peasant.
Yeah right. Ask Steve Ballmer if he'd rather be beating Google in search or Apple in mobile. Latter pie is much, much bigger.
Exactly. All the big players are in competition with each other. Amazon and Google are at loggerheads over Android. But Amazon and Apple are competing in the online media delivery market too (Google is playing there too, but is a distant fourth right now to those two and Netflix). Microsoft doesn't care about Amazon, but wants a piece of the mobile OS market and the internet search world. And there are a hundred other smaller software companies and hardware OEMs trying to catch the stuff that drops out of the hands of the big folks.
There really aren't any major "alliances" right now. It's a mess.
There really aren't any major "alliances" right now. It's a mess.
I've not seen any problem with the information about roads or directions, rather every error that I've seen is connecting a business or place name to a physical location on the map. Which is quite confusing, because Yelp will have the proper location for a business of interest, but the new iOS Maps will place it at the same address but in a different municipality, or something crazy like that. I'm not sure what problems others are experiencing, though...
Those companies do not have good data for Asia, afaict. There are many other companies and data sets that would need to be integrated to provide even something resembling what Google has today with it's Maps service.
It could be the Goldilocks problem for Apple with their own - supposedly - high bar for quality that made them end up with their own vastly inferior product. I imagine we'll see some scoops on the inside baseball in a few weeks.
It is really not 1/3 the quality. It has errors, without question, but so did Google Maps when it first launched. To partner with another company and then, in a few years again switch to their own maps and start over or partner again with yet another company doesn't make sense.
It's an unfortunate situation, but not something that can't be gradually fixed. There are several features I prefer actually. The city I live in is broken into subdivisions I wasn't previously aware of. It looks nicer. And the yelp reviews are useful, perhaps even a good way for businesses to quickly become featured on maps.
I have to be honest, none of the people I know who have purchased the 5 have complained much about maps, they realize its not as good as google but they feel the other features more than make up for it.
> The city I live in is broken into subdivisions I wasn't previously aware of.
Mine too, but because Apple is incorrectly naming the subdivisions with random POI. Like a small condo building becoming the name for a whole neighborhood. It seems random and almost entirely incorrect.
Mine too, but because Apple is incorrectly naming the subdivisions with random POI. Like a small condo building becoming the name for a whole neighborhood. It seems random and almost entirely incorrect.
You haven't used iOS 6 Maps in non US/EU countries. The OSM map data in Asia is much less accurate. There is no Yelp outside of the US. Think global. iOS 6 Maps is worthless in Asia.
Do you have a source for that? All the chatter I've heard is that Apple Maps is actually really useful in China.
EDIT: Blog post from someone living in China extolling the virtues of iOS 6 maps http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china....
EDIT: Blog post from someone living in China extolling the virtues of iOS 6 maps http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china....
Isn't that because they have China using a local dataset, that doesn't even have the rest of the world on the map?
Apple is using AutoNavi (not TomTom) for its map data in China (which Google is using as well). Here's a blog post from someone who lives in China describing why he likes iOS 6 maps more than Google Maps.
http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china....
http://anthonydrendel.com/blog/2012/9/24/ios-maps-and-china....
Even here in Dublin, Ireland it is pretty hopeless. The zoo is now in the centre of a shopping district in town (rather than a few km outside), and loads of smaller roads are missing / have the wrong names. There is pretty much no point searching for anything...
Well, they had two choices in front of them. Suck it up and partner, or suck it up and risk this situation.
Whilst I'm sure they'd have gotten a 1-year licensing agreement with Microsoft I can only guess it'd come with a steep price tag on. Plus they'd just been burnt by dealing with a third party. Plus (again, sorry), they need to have the Maps application being used by people worldwide to improve the quality. It doesn't get better with time, it gets better with users moaning.
Whilst I'm sure they'd have gotten a 1-year licensing agreement with Microsoft I can only guess it'd come with a steep price tag on. Plus they'd just been burnt by dealing with a third party. Plus (again, sorry), they need to have the Maps application being used by people worldwide to improve the quality. It doesn't get better with time, it gets better with users moaning.
FWIW, I've read elsewhere that Google has had 1000 contractors in India cleaning up map data for 5 years. People using it isn't going to clean it up with "moaning". Apple is going to have to throw a LOT of resources at fixing this.
More people moan the more likely it is Apple will throw resources at it. It needs people using it and complaining to show where the data isn't working.
Do they actually have a system in place the allows users to report enough detail to fix something? Personally I don't consider bug reports moaning.
From trying it there does seem to be a reasonable level of detail.
I don't of course just mean the bug reports, I mean every email going into customer support, every snarky comment directed at Apple and so on. It'll encourage them to dig deep, hopefully.
I don't of course just mean the bug reports, I mean every email going into customer support, every snarky comment directed at Apple and so on. It'll encourage them to dig deep, hopefully.
There's a "report issue" button if you hit the bottom right corner of the map. It allows you to drop pins where issues are and gives free text fields to enter information.
Apple would be in exactly the same problematic position with Microsoft as they were with Google. Not worth the pain for no gain.
Now that they've already queered the deal with Google it's too late, but playing Google and Microsoft against each other they could have gotten sufficient leverage from at least one of them.
I suspect that cutting the google deal short was intentionally done leave Google flat footed with no map app on iOS. Simply put it cuts google out of that market for a while leaving Apple the only major player on their device.
While it isn't perfect being the only big map player in that system means that over time customers will just accept that is their only option, and those with problems will see improvements. By the time Google releases a map app many customers may already be committed to the default experience.
Some folks may continue to make comparisons between the two and switch back, but the majority may not and thus an easy win for Apple where if there were a competing Google Maps they would face a far steeper challenge even with time to improve their own product.
As for partnering with MS I think Apple simply wanted to go on their own considering that they were already were severing a partnership over maps.
While it isn't perfect being the only big map player in that system means that over time customers will just accept that is their only option, and those with problems will see improvements. By the time Google releases a map app many customers may already be committed to the default experience.
Some folks may continue to make comparisons between the two and switch back, but the majority may not and thus an easy win for Apple where if there were a competing Google Maps they would face a far steeper challenge even with time to improve their own product.
As for partnering with MS I think Apple simply wanted to go on their own considering that they were already were severing a partnership over maps.
I disagree with the cutting the deal short. The Maps app was in beta for months, was announced in April and I bet that Google knew it was coming even before the official announcement.
Quite frankly, Google has had plenty of time to be working on a Maps application for iOS. It's not like they have to reinvent the wheel with this, they have iOS development teams and experience with mobile mapping applications.
I think that Google willfully chose not to have a product ready. It's a good explanation when you realize they had months of lead time, and when you factor in all of the CEO "I don't know nothing' about no app" comments.
Quite frankly, Google has had plenty of time to be working on a Maps application for iOS. It's not like they have to reinvent the wheel with this, they have iOS development teams and experience with mobile mapping applications.
I think that Google willfully chose not to have a product ready. It's a good explanation when you realize they had months of lead time, and when you factor in all of the CEO "I don't know nothing' about no app" comments.
Google's business interests are weird here. They presumably were getting _paid_ by Apple for maps integration. Do they really want to say "Sure, stop paying us, and for free we'll make sure to provide an app of our own to your customers that's just as high quality?" On the other hand, Google is certainly otherwise often in the business of providing free apps to people that they try to get as many people as possible to use on other people's devices (I mean, Android. On the other hand, even though Android is theoretically free, i think every device maker that uses it has a paid contract with google). It's pretty unclear what Google's interests and plans are when it comes to this stuff.
Google is in the strange position of wanting to get a piece of hardware into the hands of every person while at the same time having services that they want everyone to use because that is how they make their money.
They are constantly biting their own hand because making any service Android specific limits it's use and making services available on competing hardware limits their own hardware penetration.
Since Apple makes all their money on hardware they just don't care. They focus on making the best hardware they can and then build software on top of it. Jobs for the longest time didn't even want to put iTunes on Windows but eventually relented when people were buying iPods for their Windows PCs.
They are constantly biting their own hand because making any service Android specific limits it's use and making services available on competing hardware limits their own hardware penetration.
Since Apple makes all their money on hardware they just don't care. They focus on making the best hardware they can and then build software on top of it. Jobs for the longest time didn't even want to put iTunes on Windows but eventually relented when people were buying iPods for their Windows PCs.
That's a good point. Certainly the average iPhone user is now learning the value of a good mapping app vs the value of a crappy mapping app. If they launch their free map app a few weeks after iOS6 launch, they've taught Apple and a lot of people a lesson...
Worked at a location based services company, we were aware of an upcoming Apple Maps application before the iPhone 4S came out.
I'm not sure months is enough to just put it out.
Word has it they're working on the iOS app and have been frantically doing so.
I don't see any advantage in willfully delaying. They only shaft potential lost users in doing so. I doubt any many folks folks are dumping their iPhone due to the maps and all Google does is loose contact with customers in the process and give Apple a chance to fill the void.
Word has it they're working on the iOS app and have been frantically doing so.
I don't see any advantage in willfully delaying. They only shaft potential lost users in doing so. I doubt any many folks folks are dumping their iPhone due to the maps and all Google does is loose contact with customers in the process and give Apple a chance to fill the void.
Wasn't there a rumor Google has a maps app waiting for approval by Apple?
I think Eric Schmidt denied this rumor.
> leaving Apple the only major player on their device.
> over time customers will just accept that is their only option
As Tim Cook mentioned, there are already map apps available for Bing, MapQuest and Waze, and turn-by-turn navigation apps from all the major players. Google announced that they have not submitted their own maps app for iOS.
Unless, perhaps rightly, you're considering Google the only major player. More reason for Apple to switch now.
> over time customers will just accept that is their only option
As Tim Cook mentioned, there are already map apps available for Bing, MapQuest and Waze, and turn-by-turn navigation apps from all the major players. Google announced that they have not submitted their own maps app for iOS.
Unless, perhaps rightly, you're considering Google the only major player. More reason for Apple to switch now.
Yes, they should have teamed up with another direct competitor, because that's worked so well for them in the past.
Why go through Microsoft when their data is Nokia based anyway?
Why go through Microsoft when their data is Nokia based anyway?
Part of the rationale for cutting ties with Google Maps seems to have been to avoid being reliant on a major competitor for core functionality. Partnering with Microsoft would simply have been trading one competitor for another. Presumably this is the same reason they didn't partner with Nokia either.
Jon Gruber had a pretty good write up on this:
"But if the old agreement between Apple and Google expired in the first half of 2013 (which, again, my own sources familiar with the matter agree to be the case), that means the deal was set to expire halfway through the expected year-long life cycle for iOS 6. If Apple had stuck with Google Maps for another year they would have been forced to renegotiate with Google in a situation where both sides at the table would know that Apple either (a) had to agree to whatever terms Google demanded to extend the deal; or (b) would be forced to swap the mapping back-end of iOS 6 midway through its development cycle."
http://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_switc...
"But if the old agreement between Apple and Google expired in the first half of 2013 (which, again, my own sources familiar with the matter agree to be the case), that means the deal was set to expire halfway through the expected year-long life cycle for iOS 6. If Apple had stuck with Google Maps for another year they would have been forced to renegotiate with Google in a situation where both sides at the table would know that Apple either (a) had to agree to whatever terms Google demanded to extend the deal; or (b) would be forced to swap the mapping back-end of iOS 6 midway through its development cycle."
http://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_switc...
That reads like an autistic kid or maybe OCD adult with a 'special interest' in trains explaining why a train crashed: "Company A always bumped the letter of the model number when releasing a new engine. Company B designated upgrades to their brakes by doubling the current model number. You can hardly blame Company C for upgrading the engine without upgrading the brakes when in the past Company C has always kept the numeric form of the engine model number + brake model number mutually co-prime."
It reads like an apologist apologising.
Gruber is a known shill who writes 50 shades of gray for Apple-fans.
Gruber is a known shill who writes 50 shades of gray for Apple-fans.
I just want to know where "just works" went. Why should a consumer have to worry about contracts between corporations when all they want to do is use their phone to catch a bus, just like they have been doing for years?
To be fair: it's never worked like that. If you spent the 90's on anything but windows (or the 70's on anything but IBM), you saw the same nonsense. The best you get are brief moments of purity, where the growth of a new platform or environment is so fast that it makes more sense for all the parties to collaborate instead of compete. So in the first 4 years of the "post-iPhone smartphone" world it was nice, just like it was in the early days of the internet.
It's a maturing market now, and not so nice. We have to wait for the next disruption now.
It's a maturing market now, and not so nice. We have to wait for the next disruption now.
I get that the real world doesn't work like that, but I feel like that is the reality that I was sold by their marketing. It is incredibly disappointing that they cannot see it realized.
I think Apple came to the conclusion that the iPhone is entrenched and will sell tens of millions regardless of not having new design, features like NFC or great maps. The "just works" mantra is easy to get lost when the iPhone is now a cash cow(like how Windows stagnated after Windows 95 till before Windows XP). I guess the focus is now on iTV or whatever else that's being cooked up while milking the cash cows for what they're worth.
Reminds me of Avis' slogan: We try harder because we're number two.
Reminds me of Avis' slogan: We try harder because we're number two.
If that is the case the Apple is done for. Getting complacent like that means Apple is dead.
And I fear you may be right. This is not something Jobs would have allowed.
And I fear you may be right. This is not something Jobs would have allowed.
If John Gruber had not invented Markdown, he would be very high on my least favorite humans list.
Because he happens to fanboy for Apple? I can think of a lot better reasons to hate someone...
He's extremely popular but also manipulates truths to tell fabrications and outright lies. I think anyone who behaves in such a manner is actively harming society by discouraging intelligent discourse. This type of behavior is seeping into many facets of life both big (politics) and small (mobile phones). He's basically FoxNews for Apple.
LOL, I agree. I subscribed to his RSS feed a while ago, and I flick through his headlines with amusement. He seems to get very offended if people diss Apple, and then happily reblogs similar nonsense aimed at Android or Windows 8 - classic partisan confirmation bias.
Occasionally he also posts something which is not "apple politics" which is interesting, so for now he stays on my list of subscriptions.
Occasionally he also posts something which is not "apple politics" which is interesting, so for now he stays on my list of subscriptions.
Oh, I don't haaaate him. I just find his opinions obnoxious, and it doesn't seem like people will stop listening to him any time soon.
I think you give him far to little credit.
invented yes, but then totally neglected it (while retaining the Markdown name)
Because he holds Apple in high regard?
You'd have murdered him by now had you ever read Markdown.pl or run into its hundreds of bugs and corner cases
Did you read the entire article? I thought it made sense.
Google is adding features to it's own mobile OS maps app while withholding those features from it's competitor. Google offered to include the features in exchange for ads and customer data, two things Apple has always tried to minimize. Apple historically defaults to accepting the pain of adopting new technology too early as opposed to too late.
Google is adding features to it's own mobile OS maps app while withholding those features from it's competitor. Google offered to include the features in exchange for ads and customer data, two things Apple has always tried to minimize. Apple historically defaults to accepting the pain of adopting new technology too early as opposed to too late.
I was referring to the `they had to switch now rather than in 6 months due to a version number dance they are mystically locked into for no explained reason`.
Gruber is using a weird empiricism to defend everything Apple does. `They were locked into it because that is the pattern!` For instance, why couldn't they have released the new maps with the upcoming iPad mini release, buying a little more time?
Historically doing something one way doesn't mean you have to rush out a turd just to keep up a meaningless pattern. You also don't have to step over every crack in the sidewalk to avoid bad joo joo.
Gruber uses these little patterns in version numbers, release dates, etc. to make predictions about Apple releases and drive traffic to his blog. He has gotten so obsessed with them that he has flipped the entire utility of them and now uses them quasi-prescriptively in proclamations of what Apple has to do or had to do.
Gruber is using a weird empiricism to defend everything Apple does. `They were locked into it because that is the pattern!` For instance, why couldn't they have released the new maps with the upcoming iPad mini release, buying a little more time?
Historically doing something one way doesn't mean you have to rush out a turd just to keep up a meaningless pattern. You also don't have to step over every crack in the sidewalk to avoid bad joo joo.
Gruber uses these little patterns in version numbers, release dates, etc. to make predictions about Apple releases and drive traffic to his blog. He has gotten so obsessed with them that he has flipped the entire utility of them and now uses them quasi-prescriptively in proclamations of what Apple has to do or had to do.
Patterns in numbers are just something he mentions on the side. I don't really read him for the predictions, but he's pretty good in that department. The headline is obnoxious, but the content is spot on.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/09/28/told-you-so
Show me another blogger that was warning Apple they needed to get maps right back in May. That's why he gets page views.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/09/28/told-you-so
Show me another blogger that was warning Apple they needed to get maps right back in May. That's why he gets page views.
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I find it odd that many folks in this debate have focused on the exiting contract and its dates. There's nothing stopping two willing parties from updating an existing agreement at any time - as long as they can both agree. No senior exec at Apple would have ever said "Oh, dang it - if only the date was in a different location we'd be doing a different strategy"
> I find it odd that many folks in this debate have focused on the exiting contract and its dates.
The recent issue between Netflix and Starz will show you why it is a major focus.
As much as we'd like to ignore people/business issues, sometime they trump tech and social networking issues.
The recent issue between Netflix and Starz will show you why it is a major focus.
As much as we'd like to ignore people/business issues, sometime they trump tech and social networking issues.
Yes jp but you've picked an extreme example. It was clear that was a monumental sweetheart deal. Netflix was never going to end that one day early because whatever came next was going to be multiple times higher. Apple could have, most likely did, say "Well we really want turn by turn and voice and you won't allow it. We need to bring those features to our phone. We have two choices - go out earlier than we want with our Maps or extend this agreement until XYZ date and give both sides time to continuing negotiating this." Google comes up with an amount and Apple decides which is the better choice. The date is a "forcing factor" to drive a commercial conclusion but not the immovable object that forces you to go out earlier than you want. Make sense?
I think your response shows pretty well why "many folks in this debate have focused on the exiting contract and its dates."
Thank you, I have been wondering what drove apple to act so stupidly.
I can easily envision Tim Cook doing this. The whole world is watching, and there is major ego on the line. The last thing on earth he'd want is for wall street to see that google had him by the balls.
Not that Jon Gruber is guarenteed to be right, but it certainly has the ring of truth.
Edit: Of course, if wall street were really paying attention, they'd see that apple behaved this badly because Google in fact had them by the balls. Thank god they're not the sharpest tools in the shed over there.
I can easily envision Tim Cook doing this. The whole world is watching, and there is major ego on the line. The last thing on earth he'd want is for wall street to see that google had him by the balls.
Not that Jon Gruber is guarenteed to be right, but it certainly has the ring of truth.
Edit: Of course, if wall street were really paying attention, they'd see that apple behaved this badly because Google in fact had them by the balls. Thank god they're not the sharpest tools in the shed over there.
Every time I read something from aforementioned blog, I finished with a feeling of disappointment. No insights, no deep thought process, just plain apple-fanboyism.
Let me guess—you don't read aforementioned blog at all, do you?
I don't see much apple fanboyism if any, but plenty of antiappleism and antigrubersim, which most often is based on zero research and analysis, just parroting some latest anti-Apple fad.
I think bhavin is saying that Gruber's blog posts are Apple fanboyism. I'm not sure how you could deny that they are at least generally favorable toward Apple.
This leaves only one simple question in my mind:
If it has come to Apple issuing a public apology for shipping a partly-baked replacement for an important core app, the old version of which they are still licensed to distribute for another year...
Why not put iOS 5 Maps in the App Store, and pull it down next summer?
If it has come to Apple issuing a public apology for shipping a partly-baked replacement for an important core app, the old version of which they are still licensed to distribute for another year...
Why not put iOS 5 Maps in the App Store, and pull it down next summer?
> the old version of which they are still licensed to distribute for another year...
No, closer to 6 months.
No, closer to 6 months.
Even if they put it up for another three months, that would buy them enough time to make some significant improvements to the iOS6 app.
How does that have anything to do with map providers other than google?
A fun anecdote regarding Maps.
I was talking with a friend of mine last night on the iPhone. She was complaining that her iPhone was working poorly, and she was frustrated with it. I asked if she had updated to iOS 6 yet, since sometimes a restore cycle can clear things up. She told me, no, she wasn't, because she heard maps were terrible. I said, "did you hear they are terrible, or have you used them and think they're terrible?" She said she heard only. Interestingly, though, she said she had been using turn-by-turn with "a voice telling her when to turn." I asked her to go to Settings and check, and sure enough, she had updated and actually liked new Maps.
I don't deny that new Maps aren't at the level that GMaps were, but they're not really that terrible, either. Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad, at least in my experience, and has improved since the betas.
I was talking with a friend of mine last night on the iPhone. She was complaining that her iPhone was working poorly, and she was frustrated with it. I asked if she had updated to iOS 6 yet, since sometimes a restore cycle can clear things up. She told me, no, she wasn't, because she heard maps were terrible. I said, "did you hear they are terrible, or have you used them and think they're terrible?" She said she heard only. Interestingly, though, she said she had been using turn-by-turn with "a voice telling her when to turn." I asked her to go to Settings and check, and sure enough, she had updated and actually liked new Maps.
I don't deny that new Maps aren't at the level that GMaps were, but they're not really that terrible, either. Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad, at least in my experience, and has improved since the betas.
>Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad
I think this is another example of the biggest general complaint about apple Maps, that it's too US-centric. Here in Europe a mapping program that can't do transit is a joke.
I think this is another example of the biggest general complaint about apple Maps, that it's too US-centric. Here in Europe a mapping program that can't do transit is a joke.
So like Google Maps in Germany, then, eh?
Google Maps never had any transit info in Germany. It never was a joke, it always was awesome (even if always fraught with problems and errors).
Google Maps never had any transit info in Germany. It never was a joke, it always was awesome (even if always fraught with problems and errors).
That's true in many places in the US as well. We have plenty of big cities with well-developed public transportation, after all.
Un-fucking-believable. The CEO of Apple has come right out and admitted that Maps is sub-par, and the Apple fans are still trying to pretend that the problems are not real.
Sure the problem are real - for other people. But not for me. When I upgraded, I expected maps to suck. To my surprise, moving the map around was smoother, it was easier to read, and the display for directions are better.
I also think that's why Apple released it: there are genuine improvements in some areas, but they underestimated how important the missing features are to some people. For some people, the transit features are the reason to use Maps, so it's obviously inferior for them.
I also think that's why Apple released it: there are genuine improvements in some areas, but they underestimated how important the missing features are to some people. For some people, the transit features are the reason to use Maps, so it's obviously inferior for them.
Well, nobody is saying that Maps is awful for everybody. A lot of people are, however, saying that Maps is awful for roughly nobody, and that the complainers are either Apple haters, influenced by the media, never actually tried the app, etc.
The person you were replying to, however, was not saying that, so trying to make that point in reply to him is a non-sequitur.
"I don't deny that new Maps aren't at the level that GMaps were, but they're not really that terrible, either. Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad, at least in my experience, and has improved since the betas."
How much clearer does it need to be? He comes out and says, right there, that the parts that aren't outright missing are fine. This is not my experience, nor is it the experience of many other people I've talked to.
How much clearer does it need to be? He comes out and says, right there, that the parts that aren't outright missing are fine. This is not my experience, nor is it the experience of many other people I've talked to.
But that is my experience, and was exactly what I said up top. For how I use Maps, the new version is better in every way; I'm actually quite impressed with the animation of scaling and moving around on the map, and with the clarity of features (roads, parks, rivers, etc.).
Yes, you are talking about your experience, and that's fine. eddieroger, however, was talking about everybody's experience, and claiming that the new Maps is just fine, for everybody, unless you need one of the features that's outright missing. That is simply false.
I have yet to hear someone complain about Maps other than missing features - both personally, and observed through chatter online. So his comment gels with everything I know. I'm curious to learn about people complaining about something other than missing features, so if you can point me to them or say what your experiences are, I'd like to know.
My experience went basically like this:
1. Check out the location of my new house. Apple's data is years old and predates the whole development. The area is new, but not THAT new. Google and OpenStreetMap both have it fine.
2. Use it to navigate to a park I'd never been to before. Get told "you have arrived" while going under an interstate overpass. Find a driveway to pull off in, spend about ten minutes screwing around with the park's web site verifying the address, finding a better map, etc., finally figure out that the app sent me about half a mile in the wrong direction down this road. Google, of course, has the correct location for the address.
3. Use it to navigate to a restaurant I'd never been to before. "You have arrived" happens in front of a tiny strip mall with no restaurants. Wander around the area for a while and finally find it. Later on I check to see what happened, and it's pretty incredible. Maps had been opened with a link of the form, Restaurant@latitude,longitude. Stripping off the "Restaurant@" portion gives the correct location. With the restaurant name in it, Maps ignored the lat/lon and preferred its POI data, which was just plain wrong.
At that point, I gave up on the thing. Note that this is not the sequence of bad experience that were interspersed with good ones. These are the only experiences I had in using the thing, aside from two trivial tests navigating to and from day care which I do almost every day anyway.
Many other people I've talked to report similar experiences. Addresses are misplaced, POIs are misplaced, stuff is mislabeled or severely out of date, etc.
1. Check out the location of my new house. Apple's data is years old and predates the whole development. The area is new, but not THAT new. Google and OpenStreetMap both have it fine.
2. Use it to navigate to a park I'd never been to before. Get told "you have arrived" while going under an interstate overpass. Find a driveway to pull off in, spend about ten minutes screwing around with the park's web site verifying the address, finding a better map, etc., finally figure out that the app sent me about half a mile in the wrong direction down this road. Google, of course, has the correct location for the address.
3. Use it to navigate to a restaurant I'd never been to before. "You have arrived" happens in front of a tiny strip mall with no restaurants. Wander around the area for a while and finally find it. Later on I check to see what happened, and it's pretty incredible. Maps had been opened with a link of the form, Restaurant@latitude,longitude. Stripping off the "Restaurant@" portion gives the correct location. With the restaurant name in it, Maps ignored the lat/lon and preferred its POI data, which was just plain wrong.
At that point, I gave up on the thing. Note that this is not the sequence of bad experience that were interspersed with good ones. These are the only experiences I had in using the thing, aside from two trivial tests navigating to and from day care which I do almost every day anyway.
Many other people I've talked to report similar experiences. Addresses are misplaced, POIs are misplaced, stuff is mislabeled or severely out of date, etc.
That sucks. Looking at what you said and others in the thread, it sounds like the biggest problem is the data. I've done a bunch of spot-checks of locations near me, but I'm in the NYC area. I assume the NYC area would get a lot of attention for map data.
(By the way, the above is response is much more constructive than saying "un-fucking-believeable" in response to someone who is not aware of problems.)
(By the way, the above is response is much more constructive than saying "un-fucking-believeable" in response to someone who is not aware of problems.)
Who is saying that maps is awful for nobody?
On the contrary - her experiences with Maps were under the assumption she had not been upgraded at all. Her pleased experience transferred to the new maps, based on the expectation that they were still Google provided. She didn't magically decide that the maps were great.
The quality of the maps are not universally good or bad. It's a very local issue. If you have good map data in your area then you may have a great experience with Maps. If you have bad map data in your area you will have a terrible experience.
Of course. I've yet to encounter anybody who says that Maps is universally bad for everybody. But many Apple fanboys insist that Maps is universally good, except for a very few outliers, like eddieroger did.
You gotta understand, your talking about users. They don't actually understand logic. They work from emotion only.
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> Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad
How many of the users don't require accurate, up-to-date map data in a map application?
How many of the users don't require accurate, up-to-date map data in a map application?
This is not just an "end user" problem it is a developer problem. Our "hyper local" app looks (and is) terrible on iOS6 but runs just fine on iOS5 (with Google mapping).
iOS was the choice for the lead mobile platform but with iOS6 take up levels running high we may have to switch to Android to be able to demonstrate all of our ideas.
iOS was the choice for the lead mobile platform but with iOS6 take up levels running high we may have to switch to Android to be able to demonstrate all of our ideas.
Looks terrible? I don't think the look of the new maps is under much criticism. I thought the general consensus was "pretty but not as functional"?
Yeah, I tend to disagree, mainly for the many reasons pointed out in this fantastic article: http://geoit.posterous.com/41latitude-google-maps-label-read... .
I do believe that vector graphics are far superior to GMaps' tiles.
I do believe that vector graphics are far superior to GMaps' tiles.
It's unusably terrible for some people (like me). Apparently I now live on the moon: http://cl.ly/image/3q3v262G3P2s
Although the app's lack of proper search and laughable location plotting, my chief issue with the new Maps is the aesthetic, which I consider to be unequivocally inferior to Google Maps.
I swing the other way, I think it looks much better in many ways. I much prefer the typography and a few other design touches.
I agree. The new Maps looks really nice, it just isn't very useful. IMO it's a great example of form over function.
I find it harder to read. In particular, it's a lot harder to distinguish icons for useful things like train/tube stations from icons I don't care about like wine bars.
Wouldn't you have noticed that three months ago when you downloaded the beta after WWDC? If you were displeased, you could have worked around MapKit. Sure, you shouldn't have to, but I wouldn't blame Apple for making your app "terrible" when you've had plenty of time to make it not that way.
As a developer, you can include whatever map tiles you want in your application - if Apple Maps are bad for you, you can just switch to Google or Bing or whatever. Don't blame or abandon the platform for what is within your capability to change.
In the situation described, the mapping was switched out beneath a developer without them even updating their software. Yes you can work around it but I don't blame someone for thinking that sucks.
I found this week the true extent of how terrible the new iOS Maps is, when I needed to find a hospital. We needed to go to the ER in the middle of the night, and were stuck waiting at a particular hospital that was nearest to us.
I knew there was another, better hospital with a better reputation down the freeway (perhaps 5 miles) and wanted to call to ask what their wait time was. I searched "hospital" and the nearest one provided was 25 miles away. I knew where the one I wanted was and it was no where to be found on iOS Maps.
I also searched for "emergency clinics" in various naming forms, knowing of the ones I would try first… and again, came up empty of all the ones that I knew existed.
I now have a shortcut to Google Maps on my home screen and will only use iOS maps for turn-by-turn directions. I was very frustrated to begin with that night, and Apple disaster of a Map app didn't help.
I knew there was another, better hospital with a better reputation down the freeway (perhaps 5 miles) and wanted to call to ask what their wait time was. I searched "hospital" and the nearest one provided was 25 miles away. I knew where the one I wanted was and it was no where to be found on iOS Maps.
I also searched for "emergency clinics" in various naming forms, knowing of the ones I would try first… and again, came up empty of all the ones that I knew existed.
I now have a shortcut to Google Maps on my home screen and will only use iOS maps for turn-by-turn directions. I was very frustrated to begin with that night, and Apple disaster of a Map app didn't help.
Crazy thing is according to TomTom there is no problem in the actual map data they provided. (I think they're right. I've driven across Europe without major problems using TomTom. There were no complaints about the TomTom App according to the 4.5 star reviews). According to TomTom, Appel combines their data with data from other sources and Apple has a problem combining/rendering the data...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/tomtom-apple-maps-...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/tomtom-apple-maps-...
I don’t think turn-by-turn (what TomTome provides) is the problem. That seems to work like a charm (at least it does for me). I get excellent TomTom-level quality here in Germany, plus the great (best of breed) traffic info from TomTom.
For me, search and POIs are slightly dysfunctional and some labels are out of whack – both of that, however, doesn’t seem to have any impact on my turn-by-turn experience. So I can believe that TomTom is not to blame here.
For me, search and POIs are slightly dysfunctional and some labels are out of whack – both of that, however, doesn’t seem to have any impact on my turn-by-turn experience. So I can believe that TomTom is not to blame here.
It also could suggest that the .1 version will be a significant upgrade if the underlying date's good but it's being parsed wrong/deprioritized for OSM data/etc.
Better than if the underlying data is wrong, anyway.
Better than if the underlying data is wrong, anyway.
I haven't really heard many complaints about the quality of the road data. Like that turn-by-turn is telling you to go the wrong-way down one way streets, or make a turn that isn't allowed.
(In contrast, I've had Waze tell me to turn left off of an interstate highway onto an underpass road. Because no one had set that as a disallowed turn. That's bad map data.)
(In contrast, I've had Waze tell me to turn left off of an interstate highway onto an underpass road. Because no one had set that as a disallowed turn. That's bad map data.)
What to say? The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels unprecedented.
Not one person posting on HN and the many blogs really knows what happened behind the scenes. Apple engineers are not known for being dumb. Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.
So the question might very well be: Why did they do it?
This couldn't have been out of spite. Just to kick Google off the platform. One just doesn't do that. Maintaining a complex code-base such as iOS is difficult enough. Adding to that the friction of delivering a substandard product is not something one does without very good reasons.
Conjecture is all we have from the outside. My humble guess is that it had to come down to a business deal they did not want to make. The details of the deal are not important. Who was right and who was wrong isn't important. What is important is that whatever they had in front of them convinced Apple management that it they had no choice but to, effectively, downgrade the next release with Maps.
I already know of a lot of non-tech people, particularly outside the US, who are livid about Maps. After dutifully upgrading their devices to iOS 6 they discover that Maps are, in their words, "crap", "useless", "unreliable", "a joke", "not accurate", "una mierda" (shit), etc. The reason for the strong feelings is that, let's face it, if a good tool such as Google Maps is available to you, you might tend to use it.
And a lot of people would use it all the time. My own wife relies on Google Maps all the time. Thankfully she was wise enough to marry a geek who promptly told her not to upgrade her iPhone 4S to iOS 6 and not to swap it out for an iPhone 5. In fact, not one person in my family will do either of those things. And that is the case --that has to be the case-- for millions of people at this point.
This is the data we are not getting and that Apple will probably never release. I own eight iOS devices. Not one of them will be upgraded to iOS 6. In fact, the upgrades stop here until either Maps starts to get really good marks. And, of course, we probably would have purchased at least three iPhone 5's. Not happening. I'll get one for development but it will not be activated.
How many millions are in this boat? If someone is a heavy Google Maps user it makes no sense to get an iPhone 5. What's wrong with a 4S? Nothing. Use their website you say? Not the same, most would say.
As a developer there's a lesson that needs reinforcing every-so-often. What better way to reinforce it than to see a tech giant make some of the mistakes lesser companies make: If you can at all help it, don't base your product on someone else's technology. Don't make someone else's technology such an important part of your offering that not having them will hurt you. Of course, sometimes you have no choice.
As a user and a developer I view iOS 6 as a significant, if not huge, step backwards. Between Maps and the eviscerated app store one has to ask that cliche-ish question: What were they thinking?
Wouldn't we like to know.
Not one person posting on HN and the many blogs really knows what happened behind the scenes. Apple engineers are not known for being dumb. Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.
So the question might very well be: Why did they do it?
This couldn't have been out of spite. Just to kick Google off the platform. One just doesn't do that. Maintaining a complex code-base such as iOS is difficult enough. Adding to that the friction of delivering a substandard product is not something one does without very good reasons.
Conjecture is all we have from the outside. My humble guess is that it had to come down to a business deal they did not want to make. The details of the deal are not important. Who was right and who was wrong isn't important. What is important is that whatever they had in front of them convinced Apple management that it they had no choice but to, effectively, downgrade the next release with Maps.
I already know of a lot of non-tech people, particularly outside the US, who are livid about Maps. After dutifully upgrading their devices to iOS 6 they discover that Maps are, in their words, "crap", "useless", "unreliable", "a joke", "not accurate", "una mierda" (shit), etc. The reason for the strong feelings is that, let's face it, if a good tool such as Google Maps is available to you, you might tend to use it.
And a lot of people would use it all the time. My own wife relies on Google Maps all the time. Thankfully she was wise enough to marry a geek who promptly told her not to upgrade her iPhone 4S to iOS 6 and not to swap it out for an iPhone 5. In fact, not one person in my family will do either of those things. And that is the case --that has to be the case-- for millions of people at this point.
This is the data we are not getting and that Apple will probably never release. I own eight iOS devices. Not one of them will be upgraded to iOS 6. In fact, the upgrades stop here until either Maps starts to get really good marks. And, of course, we probably would have purchased at least three iPhone 5's. Not happening. I'll get one for development but it will not be activated.
How many millions are in this boat? If someone is a heavy Google Maps user it makes no sense to get an iPhone 5. What's wrong with a 4S? Nothing. Use their website you say? Not the same, most would say.
As a developer there's a lesson that needs reinforcing every-so-often. What better way to reinforce it than to see a tech giant make some of the mistakes lesser companies make: If you can at all help it, don't base your product on someone else's technology. Don't make someone else's technology such an important part of your offering that not having them will hurt you. Of course, sometimes you have no choice.
As a user and a developer I view iOS 6 as a significant, if not huge, step backwards. Between Maps and the eviscerated app store one has to ask that cliche-ish question: What were they thinking?
Wouldn't we like to know.
When people say Maps is a "huge step backwards", are they actually using the product? I mostly use my phone for driving directions, and the addition of turn-by-turn navigation has been a huge step forward. Maybe I'm the one iPhone user in the world who thinks Maps is awesome, but that seems unlikely. It seems more likely that this is just another case of the "vocal minority" being amplified by uncritical journalists. Remember what happened when Facebook first released the News Feed? :-)
It is obvious that they have better data for certain parts of the world.
The problem with maps is that if your data is, say, 10% bad or inaccurate (whatever that means) and you are serving two billion searches per week you have to contend with tens of millions of unhappy users. Bad problem to have.
Will they fix it? Probably. How long? Someone far more knowledgeable of the challenges in mapping will have to answer that one.
For me and those close to me it is about the potential to break something that works very well right now. That alone is keeping us from upgrading software and hardware. It's the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" saying.
As for turn-by-turn. I live in SoCal. I rarely need it. When I do, I throw an old GPS I keep in the car on the dashboard and it works just fine. Most of the time (99% ?) I use Google Maps on my 4S.
The problem with maps is that if your data is, say, 10% bad or inaccurate (whatever that means) and you are serving two billion searches per week you have to contend with tens of millions of unhappy users. Bad problem to have.
Will they fix it? Probably. How long? Someone far more knowledgeable of the challenges in mapping will have to answer that one.
For me and those close to me it is about the potential to break something that works very well right now. That alone is keeping us from upgrading software and hardware. It's the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" saying.
As for turn-by-turn. I live in SoCal. I rarely need it. When I do, I throw an old GPS I keep in the car on the dashboard and it works just fine. Most of the time (99% ?) I use Google Maps on my 4S.
I've talked to people who have IOS6, and the consensus is that the maps are fine in California, and completely useless everywhere else.
In Finland, a guy I know got directions that told him to go through a road that hasn't existed for 6 years.
Also, most of the market for iPhone users are city-dwellers, and most of those don't own cars. Having good timetable/route planner for public transit is very important. As I understand, Maps doesn't work for that at all.
In Finland, a guy I know got directions that told him to go through a road that hasn't existed for 6 years.
Also, most of the market for iPhone users are city-dwellers, and most of those don't own cars. Having good timetable/route planner for public transit is very important. As I understand, Maps doesn't work for that at all.
> the consensus is that the maps are fine in California, and completely useless everywhere else.
I've had no issues since I started using the beta around the Southeast US. I've used it from Tennessee to Florida, with turn-by-turn directions around the Atlanta area, to Orlando, all over Disney World, and more.
Let's not contribute consensus where consensus isn't due.
I've had no issues since I started using the beta around the Southeast US. I've used it from Tennessee to Florida, with turn-by-turn directions around the Atlanta area, to Orlando, all over Disney World, and more.
Let's not contribute consensus where consensus isn't due.
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When you ask for transit directions, you get presented a selection of 3rd party apps from the app store to give you directions, and those directions are then integrated with Apple Maps.
The app I used, http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/transit-directions-public/id5... was pretty bad on iOS 6 launch day (with instructions like "take a bus", without mentioning the line), but a week later improved to be perfectly usable here in Switzerland.
The app I used, http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/transit-directions-public/id5... was pretty bad on iOS 6 launch day (with instructions like "take a bus", without mentioning the line), but a week later improved to be perfectly usable here in Switzerland.
I have had no issues in Minneapolis/St. Paul. I think you're overblowing things with your statement of "completely useless everywhere else". I've even compared the directions against a friends s3 with google maps and Apple maps did better at some local routing than google maps did for what its worth.
It places my house 150m out to sea, and puts a rehabilitation centre that doesn't exist at the actual location of my house. In my town, a suburb of Melbourne AU, the Apple product is completely useless.
I saw a news story in, I think, the Star Tribune with a picture of the new Maps app locating the Guthrie Theatre at its old location at the Walker. It hasn't been there for 3 years.
Admittedly, I haven't used the new Maps app, but only because I've avoided upgrading my phone to iOS6 solely because I've heard the new Maps is so terrible.
Admittedly, I haven't used the new Maps app, but only because I've avoided upgrading my phone to iOS6 solely because I've heard the new Maps is so terrible.
transit directions never worked outside the US.
Except for the other 40+ countries where it works http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/transit/text.html#mdy
Here in Sweden, Google Maps have transit directions for buses, subways, trams and boats in at least the three major cities.
They work on iOS 5.0.1 in Kyoto, Japan.
Worked (and still working on iOS 5) in Sydney, Australia. There are posters up everywhere advertising the fact.
Works perfectly in Brazil (no buses though)
It couldn't find 8 California Street in SF for me.
> I've talked to people who have IOS6, and the consensus is that the maps are fine in California, and completely useless everywhere else.
I haven't had any trouble at all with them here in New England, FWIW.
I haven't had any trouble at all with them here in New England, FWIW.
I have. Boston's and MetroWest's road maps are fine but points of interest are totally crap.
> maps are fine in California, and completely useless everywhere else
Our personal, relatively microscopic sample sizes are the problem with the sentiment on this. I've used them in Florida, South Carolina, and North Carolina, and they worked fine for restaurants, turn-by-turn, etc.
As others have said, a combination of the vocal minority and the human race's love for drama is what's keeping this discussion alive.
Our personal, relatively microscopic sample sizes are the problem with the sentiment on this. I've used them in Florida, South Carolina, and North Carolina, and they worked fine for restaurants, turn-by-turn, etc.
As others have said, a combination of the vocal minority and the human race's love for drama is what's keeping this discussion alive.
I just got back from a 2 week vacation to Ireland. I planned and executed most of the trip on the fly using Google Maps on my iPhone 4S (3G data is cheap in Europe, even for nonresidents on prepaid SIMs!) running iOS 5.
Just out of curiosity, after I got back, I upgraded my iPad to iOS 6 to see whether all the complaints I'd read about Apple's maps were legit. Then I went and looked up a bunch of the places we'd traveled or stayed in Ireland, to see if the new maps would have gotten the job done. Short story, it would have been a lot harder. In the spot checks I did, the roads are there, and in one case the driving directions are better than what Google recommended, but it mostly didn't know what I was talking about when I searched for businesses, like hotels we stayed at.
Google has amassed a huge amount of really high quality data, not just roads but also businesses and places, which nobody else has. I don't know if there's widespread appreciation for how hard this is and how hard Google's been working on it (one example, and I'm sure this article is slightly politicized and the timing of it appearing now is no coincidence, but still, it's mostly fact: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/09/how-go...). Hopefully Apple has the staying power to go amass the same data, but it's an uphill battle.
Just out of curiosity, after I got back, I upgraded my iPad to iOS 6 to see whether all the complaints I'd read about Apple's maps were legit. Then I went and looked up a bunch of the places we'd traveled or stayed in Ireland, to see if the new maps would have gotten the job done. Short story, it would have been a lot harder. In the spot checks I did, the roads are there, and in one case the driving directions are better than what Google recommended, but it mostly didn't know what I was talking about when I searched for businesses, like hotels we stayed at.
Google has amassed a huge amount of really high quality data, not just roads but also businesses and places, which nobody else has. I don't know if there's widespread appreciation for how hard this is and how hard Google's been working on it (one example, and I'm sure this article is slightly politicized and the timing of it appearing now is no coincidence, but still, it's mostly fact: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/09/how-go...). Hopefully Apple has the staying power to go amass the same data, but it's an uphill battle.
The point here isn't whether or not you had a problem. There might be 100s of people reading that post and not replying because they did not have a problem. Without quizzing a representative sample of users, we can't figure out the size and scope of the problem.
I'm pretty sure when your CEO comes out and says "yeah, we have a problem", that it's a pretty effing enormous problem.
They do that on a regular basis, they did that last year after their pre-order page committed seppuku. They do that based on the scale of the public outrage, not really on the internal/technical merit.
People conveniently forget how Google Map, Nokia Drive, and all others let you down on a regular basis, and how much room there is for competition in that market. Street layout is mostly right in all apps. POI however is a joke in all of them. In the city of London, Google Map only has a fraction of the shops and there is no logic which one it has and has not. I does not have the Starbuck(!) in front of my job, but it has the clothes shop next to it and nothing else in the street. Nokia Drive keep sending me on farm/field trail when I'm in Spain. At the same place Google Map has random missing road or missing portion of road (those road have been there for 200+ years like the house built on it). I briefly tries IOS Map at the Apple Store and it has the correct layout but only label some of the road, making it equally useless IMO.
We are planning a trip to Japan with Google Maps right now. It is convenient only because of its interface - but really kinrin (something like that) is incredibly better at showing stuff that matters.
People conveniently forget how Google Map, Nokia Drive, and all others let you down on a regular basis, and how much room there is for competition in that market. Street layout is mostly right in all apps. POI however is a joke in all of them. In the city of London, Google Map only has a fraction of the shops and there is no logic which one it has and has not. I does not have the Starbuck(!) in front of my job, but it has the clothes shop next to it and nothing else in the street. Nokia Drive keep sending me on farm/field trail when I'm in Spain. At the same place Google Map has random missing road or missing portion of road (those road have been there for 200+ years like the house built on it). I briefly tries IOS Map at the Apple Store and it has the correct layout but only label some of the road, making it equally useless IMO.
We are planning a trip to Japan with Google Maps right now. It is convenient only because of its interface - but really kinrin (something like that) is incredibly better at showing stuff that matters.
Well, it's a pretty high profile problem, which it is.
[deleted]
No problems in South Florida (Fort Lauderdale, Miami and Palm Beach) either. Last I checked we are outside California.
Don't make generalized statements unless you can back it up with data.
Don't make generalized statements unless you can back it up with data.
> 10% bad or inaccurate
Or even 0.1% bad.
I recently had a family member (who doesn't use a smartphone) call me up to ask if I could recommend a brand of print map to her. After just one instance of getting lost due to a mislabeled road in her atlas, she was ready to jump ship on a brand that she had probably been loyal to for decades. All over an error that was probably insignificant in the grand scheme of things. But to her it meant an hour's worth of lost time, confusion and wasted gasoline, and it was very significant.
Or even 0.1% bad.
I recently had a family member (who doesn't use a smartphone) call me up to ask if I could recommend a brand of print map to her. After just one instance of getting lost due to a mislabeled road in her atlas, she was ready to jump ship on a brand that she had probably been loyal to for decades. All over an error that was probably insignificant in the grand scheme of things. But to her it meant an hour's worth of lost time, confusion and wasted gasoline, and it was very significant.
One bad experience can change the perception.
Interesting snub at Google by recommending Bing maps over Google :)
Interesting snub at Google by recommending Bing maps over Google :)
That may have just been because they want to emphasize a native mobile app rather than HTML5-based mobile experiences, and Google has not yet released their own native maps app for iOS.
Are you sure about that? Doesn't google have a maps application that is pending approval in the app store?
No, it's still being built and is probably months away[1]
[1]: http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/25/3407614/apple-over-a-year-...
[1]: http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/25/3407614/apple-over-a-year-...
Actually, the open letter also recommends Google and Nokia maps, via their websites (because native apps don't exist).
BTW: Am I the only one that thinks it's fishy that Google's claiming (a) they only had 3 months notice of this change and (b) 3 months isn't enough to produce their own iOS maps app? I don't believe either of those claims.
BTW: Am I the only one that thinks it's fishy that Google's claiming (a) they only had 3 months notice of this change and (b) 3 months isn't enough to produce their own iOS maps app? I don't believe either of those claims.
Why would it matter? If they decide to not release a maps app at all that would be their prerogative.
> the consensus is that the maps are fine in California
I'm in So. Cal., we happened to be visiting friends in Valencia. We were going to meet at Valencia Mall. I searched for "Valencia Mall". I sent us a mile or two away from the true location.
Google Maps got it right.
Based on this single data point I would venture to guess that, no, things are not fine in California. If it can't find the major shopping mall in a city like Valencia I don't even want to know what else it might screw up.
One of the issues with maps is that people have come to rely on them for all sorts of things, even emergencies. Nobody uses the yellow pages or print maps any more (well, some do). Imagine searching for the local hospital in an emergency and being sent to the wrong spot. This stuff is important. It's not a toy any more.
I'm in So. Cal., we happened to be visiting friends in Valencia. We were going to meet at Valencia Mall. I searched for "Valencia Mall". I sent us a mile or two away from the true location.
Google Maps got it right.
Based on this single data point I would venture to guess that, no, things are not fine in California. If it can't find the major shopping mall in a city like Valencia I don't even want to know what else it might screw up.
One of the issues with maps is that people have come to rely on them for all sorts of things, even emergencies. Nobody uses the yellow pages or print maps any more (well, some do). Imagine searching for the local hospital in an emergency and being sent to the wrong spot. This stuff is important. It's not a toy any more.
I live in a remote rural area in the UK, I just tried it again and the routing and postcode information that was wrong the day it came out is now corrected. Google maps had the same problems 2-3 years ago. I remember because they once directed me the wrong way and I missed a ferry.
As for business listings, its not like this is a solved problem. Everyone knows that google maps is not perfect for that. It's not as bad as apple maps but it's wrong enough of the time that I don't trust it, every now and then I forget it doesn't work and find myself standing outside a delivery bay, late for an appointment... I suspect most people google for a store/company/whatever, check the website to see if it offers what they want then copy paste the zip/postcode from the contact page into the maps app to get them close enough.
Apple's biggest problem is that they botched the PR, even if they fix the zip/postcode data quickly, no one will believe its fixed for a long time now.
As for business listings, its not like this is a solved problem. Everyone knows that google maps is not perfect for that. It's not as bad as apple maps but it's wrong enough of the time that I don't trust it, every now and then I forget it doesn't work and find myself standing outside a delivery bay, late for an appointment... I suspect most people google for a store/company/whatever, check the website to see if it offers what they want then copy paste the zip/postcode from the contact page into the maps app to get them close enough.
Apple's biggest problem is that they botched the PR, even if they fix the zip/postcode data quickly, no one will believe its fixed for a long time now.
It entirely depends on your usage. My coworker uses them for turn by turn and that works great for him. I use it for transit, and it's not so great.
I get that they wanted to open up transit for other apps (or couldn't build it in for some reason) but I really do hate the amount of times I have to tap to get bus info now. I would much rather the integration.
For this, Google Maps works great, except when the bus site isn't working properly, which tends to be once a year when we have a massive influx of people come to town.
I get that they wanted to open up transit for other apps (or couldn't build it in for some reason) but I really do hate the amount of times I have to tap to get bus info now. I would much rather the integration.
For this, Google Maps works great, except when the bus site isn't working properly, which tends to be once a year when we have a massive influx of people come to town.
So, "worksforme", for a car-driving lifestyle in California?
One of the main critiques has been the removal of transit directions. It was missing Shibuya station. For heaven's sake, that's like missing Grand Central Station. People in NYC would be shorting APPL...
Well, it's a FUBAR on that scale. It's just not visible if you drive a car, especially in California.
One of the main critiques has been the removal of transit directions. It was missing Shibuya station. For heaven's sake, that's like missing Grand Central Station. People in NYC would be shorting APPL...
Well, it's a FUBAR on that scale. It's just not visible if you drive a car, especially in California.
Yes I'm using the new IOS maps, and yes it's pretty bad. Searched for a bar I wanted to go to in my city and it wanted to send me to Italy (other end of the earth).
Would love to revert to IOS 5 if it's possible
Would love to revert to IOS 5 if it's possible
It seems like in Europe and especially UK, it's truly bad. In the SF Bay Area, it's reasonably functional for me, but there are enough mistakes (from my own usage, not looking for problems) that I don't fully trust it.
And that's the problem - if I don't fully trust it, it loses a lot of its utility. I downloaded the Bing app as a backup. I still like the new UI and the turn-by-turn.
And that's the problem - if I don't fully trust it, it loses a lot of its utility. I downloaded the Bing app as a backup. I still like the new UI and the turn-by-turn.
I'm in the UK. It's also useless for finding things - it has petrol stations in places they don't exist near my house, and restaurants that closed down years ago. It also sucks for anything but driving - I don't have a car so I walk everywhere and its coverage of pedestrian zones in my city is woeful (unlike google maps). Also, public transport options are nonexistent (unlike google maps). Pretty useless for me really.
In the UK the address database and driving directions seem fine. The search and the POI database are awful (although better than last week). The satellite data is great in major city centres with the 3D view working well. Have similar resolution to Google for much of the country but many areas have very low resolution.
The satellite resolution isn't much of a problem because I can use the Google Earth app for that. In most cases where I don't have an address Google search can provide that and then the maps work fine. Overall it is quite usable but as the data improves it should become pretty good.
Walking directions locally aren't great but neither are Google's. Neither know about a bridge across a motorway.
Last week when searching for hospital it didn't have any POI for my closest hospital and the thing it did come up with was a local business called 'PC Hospital'. Now with the same search in the same location the appropriate hospital is shown.
The satellite resolution isn't much of a problem because I can use the Google Earth app for that. In most cases where I don't have an address Google search can provide that and then the maps work fine. Overall it is quite usable but as the data improves it should become pretty good.
Walking directions locally aren't great but neither are Google's. Neither know about a bridge across a motorway.
Last week when searching for hospital it didn't have any POI for my closest hospital and the thing it did come up with was a local business called 'PC Hospital'. Now with the same search in the same location the appropriate hospital is shown.
Thanks. I love the new maps too. The step by step audio cues and especially visuals are delightful and feels right.
The only missing use case for me is street view. I've used it extensively in the past to look at houses when I was home shopping.
The only missing use case for me is street view. I've used it extensively in the past to look at houses when I was home shopping.
I also like the new maps - I can see it turning into a great product. My main issue is the missing public transport information... I still use the mobile web Google Maps for that which is unfortunately slower than the old native app.
I can't speak for others, but switching to Apple Maps would be more than a huge step backwards for me, it's pretty much 90% of the way to useless.
My primary use of maps is public transit directions. Not having turn-by-turn is an inconvenience that is fixed, but losing public transit isn't just an inconvenience; there is no work around to get the directions I need at all.
For any feature there is going to be some subset of users that pretty much only use that one feature, so I can't really say how common of a user I am in that regard.
My primary use of maps is public transit directions. Not having turn-by-turn is an inconvenience that is fixed, but losing public transit isn't just an inconvenience; there is no work around to get the directions I need at all.
For any feature there is going to be some subset of users that pretty much only use that one feature, so I can't really say how common of a user I am in that regard.
Lack of public transit map information is what's keeping me on iOS 5. Not upgrading until I have confidence I can use iOS 6, as public transportation is all I use.
This is a more scientific approach to the problem http://www.mtonic.com/applemaps/
Awesome. This is exactly the kind of quantification I've been hoping would start to happen.
Someone submitted this link for separate discussion.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4587026
Someone submitted this link for separate discussion.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4587026
Pretty cool. If anybody else wants to have a go, here's a useful resource.
http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/namefiles.htm
http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/namefiles.htm
As an aside, that is one of the coolest functional tests I've ever seen. It's thorough, well-documented, and includes nice visualizations (the table at the bottom, not the pie chart up top).
The title is wrong. Québec is Canada's largest province, bigger than Ontario by about 500K km^2. Nunavut is the biggest land mass of the country, considering territories and provinces.
When it works, it's better. However, it does not work as often.
I was stranded at O'Hare earlier this week, and United put me up at the "Crown Plaza", according to my hotel voucher. I searched for "Crown Plaza" in iOS6 maps, and was suddenly transported to Vancouver. In Google Maps, it correctly surmised I was actually looking for the nearby "Crowne Plaza".
iOS6 maps is 95% as good as google maps, but the missing 5% really hurts.
I was stranded at O'Hare earlier this week, and United put me up at the "Crown Plaza", according to my hotel voucher. I searched for "Crown Plaza" in iOS6 maps, and was suddenly transported to Vancouver. In Google Maps, it correctly surmised I was actually looking for the nearby "Crowne Plaza".
iOS6 maps is 95% as good as google maps, but the missing 5% really hurts.
Your experience also represents the bulk of the problems I've had. I'm in the Chicagoland area, and the POI data and roads have been pretty good. But the search doesn't seem to prioritize nearby locations. If your search string exactly matches the name of some town, anywhere in the world, it tends to give you that result.
Echoes my experience as well. I searched for a nearby street and ended up getting the same street further away. It directed me away from Manhattan and into another borough.
And making up that 5% is going to take 95% of the work.
Also the 5% isn't evenly distributed. So for some people the 5% is going to look like 20% while for others it looks like 1%
The Maps.app itself is a lot better. The sad thing is that Google has the best mapping data out there, they have been investing, collecting and tweaking it for years. Now everything that isn't Google Maps is substandard by default.
Nokia has also very good maps, some claim they are even better. Amazon switched recently from Google to Nokia for their Kindle maps. Perhaps Apple could have made a better deal with Microsoft/Nokia.
When people say Maps is a "huge step backwards", are they actually using the product?
Where do you live? If you live in the Valley, I'm sure it's fine, in fact I'm sure it's great, but elsewhere in the world the map data is pretty bad, much worse than Google Maps. People aren't all complaining about turn by turn directions in the US, they're complaining about basic flaws in map data around the world. So yes, they are using it, and it is not great.
Both the satellite data and the map data is woeful in some areas, some of it is so bad that I'm surprised they included it at all. Here are some examples which don't compare favourably with OSM or Google:
"Brighton, UK", Satellite - a big UK city is so blurry you can't see streets.
"Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands" - ends up in the middle of the sea, and no roads on the islands at all.
"Colchester" - satellite shows clouds, in B&W over a UK city
"Senkaku Islands" - compare satellite with standard to see actual duplicates of these disputed islands in the vector map data.
"Puno,Peru"- in lake Titicaca
"Central St Martins" - a major London college which relocated last year is still shown at its old address. The new address, which has been a warehouse for many years, is shown as a park named 'King's Cross Central' which doesn't exist. If their data on major cities is this bad, consider how bad the rural areas will be.
This is a really hard problem, and frankly I'm surprised Apple tried to without an extensive beta and data collection period in order to bring their data up to scratch. Just to give you an example of the sort of advantage this hands Google - Last weekend I tried to find a postcode in central London, and it wasn't found (N1C 4AA, a relatively new postcode for a major new development, but visible in Google and OSM with lots of detail). A colleague with an SIII found it no problem. That kind of comparison is a big problem for Apple.
Where do you live? If you live in the Valley, I'm sure it's fine, in fact I'm sure it's great, but elsewhere in the world the map data is pretty bad, much worse than Google Maps. People aren't all complaining about turn by turn directions in the US, they're complaining about basic flaws in map data around the world. So yes, they are using it, and it is not great.
Both the satellite data and the map data is woeful in some areas, some of it is so bad that I'm surprised they included it at all. Here are some examples which don't compare favourably with OSM or Google:
"Brighton, UK", Satellite - a big UK city is so blurry you can't see streets.
"Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands" - ends up in the middle of the sea, and no roads on the islands at all.
"Colchester" - satellite shows clouds, in B&W over a UK city
"Senkaku Islands" - compare satellite with standard to see actual duplicates of these disputed islands in the vector map data.
"Puno,Peru"- in lake Titicaca
"Central St Martins" - a major London college which relocated last year is still shown at its old address. The new address, which has been a warehouse for many years, is shown as a park named 'King's Cross Central' which doesn't exist. If their data on major cities is this bad, consider how bad the rural areas will be.
This is a really hard problem, and frankly I'm surprised Apple tried to without an extensive beta and data collection period in order to bring their data up to scratch. Just to give you an example of the sort of advantage this hands Google - Last weekend I tried to find a postcode in central London, and it wasn't found (N1C 4AA, a relatively new postcode for a major new development, but visible in Google and OSM with lots of detail). A colleague with an SIII found it no problem. That kind of comparison is a big problem for Apple.
> If you live in the Valley, I'm sure it's fine, in fact I'm sure it's great
The Menlo Park public library is shown located on top of the train tracks in Palo Alto, so no.
The Menlo Park public library is shown located on top of the train tracks in Palo Alto, so no.
I think this is their "extensive beta and data collection period". Just using the entire iOS 6 customer base as the experimental set.
I think it would be kinda cool if they'd push the new maps as an app available for iOS 5, and if Google had their native iOS maps app ready, and the transition weren't so abrupt. I realize the mapping subsystem is baked in more deeply, with various APIs and libraries available to all apps on the system, not just a standalone app, but it would still be helpful to have the standalone apps. (If Apple Maps were available as a standalone app, that would facilitiate the "extensive beta period" you suggested without all the ire that they've attracted this way; and I really hope that Google Maps is coming back to iOS at some point real soon now.)
I think it would be kinda cool if they'd push the new maps as an app available for iOS 5, and if Google had their native iOS maps app ready, and the transition weren't so abrupt. I realize the mapping subsystem is baked in more deeply, with various APIs and libraries available to all apps on the system, not just a standalone app, but it would still be helpful to have the standalone apps. (If Apple Maps were available as a standalone app, that would facilitiate the "extensive beta period" you suggested without all the ire that they've attracted this way; and I really hope that Google Maps is coming back to iOS at some point real soon now.)
I think this is their "extensive beta and data collection period". Just using the entire iOS 6 customer base as the experimental set.
If so that's an unfortunate abuse of their customers' trust, and will hand a big advantage to Google.
As you say there were many options like releasing a standalone test first to run in parallel with the google app, but perhaps because of hubris they were not explored, and so customers have had an unexpected downgrade on an app which is widely used.
If so that's an unfortunate abuse of their customers' trust, and will hand a big advantage to Google.
As you say there were many options like releasing a standalone test first to run in parallel with the google app, but perhaps because of hubris they were not explored, and so customers have had an unexpected downgrade on an app which is widely used.
I feel the same way. However I also live in California. I feel like its extremely accurate here, but it is also where it was essentially born. So it is not surprising it needs more work in other places. For everyone I know that lives here and uses it with normal habits, it seems to work just as good.
In time, and I suspect shorter than people estimate, the data quality will vastly improve. No software is perfect on the first release, and apples software is no exception. iTunes used to be glitchy in its early days, me.com was terrible when it first came out, but these issues have been rectified for the most part.
Google maps once led me 18 miles into the middle of nowhere for a dentist appointment. Sure, this error is fixed now, but the dentist office shows up correctly on maps. So It seems like here (in California) the data is better than it was when google maps was new.
I suspect by end of year, the majority of use-cases will work fine in many more places than california. Who knows, but if I were betting.. :)
In time, and I suspect shorter than people estimate, the data quality will vastly improve. No software is perfect on the first release, and apples software is no exception. iTunes used to be glitchy in its early days, me.com was terrible when it first came out, but these issues have been rectified for the most part.
Google maps once led me 18 miles into the middle of nowhere for a dentist appointment. Sure, this error is fixed now, but the dentist office shows up correctly on maps. So It seems like here (in California) the data is better than it was when google maps was new.
I suspect by end of year, the majority of use-cases will work fine in many more places than california. Who knows, but if I were betting.. :)
Durring launch week I updated my iPad to iOS6 and used to drive from NYC to Washington DC and back. Addition of turn by turn navigation is a big step forward. So I'm pretty happy.
And as a side note I recently switched back to an iPhone after the latest Google Maps update caused my phone to hard lock and reboot. Take a look here: http://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-4703 It affected my previous HTC Sensational device. Basically maps, or mapping services (which is a lot of apps including background ones) randomly caused your phone to reboot.
And as a side note I recently switched back to an iPhone after the latest Google Maps update caused my phone to hard lock and reboot. Take a look here: http://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-4703 It affected my previous HTC Sensational device. Basically maps, or mapping services (which is a lot of apps including background ones) randomly caused your phone to reboot.
I would just like to point out that the lack of turn by turn nav in Google Maps on iOS was an Apple decision, not a Google one. Nav has been available in Google maps on Android for a long time now. Hell, they have decent biking turn by turn.
No, the existing license Apple had for Google's map data specifically forbade turn by turn. According to the Verge, Google wanted a few more things before giving Apple turn by turn:
"For its part, Apple apparently felt that the older Google Maps-powered Maps in iOS were falling behind Android — particularly since they didn't have access to turn-by-turn navigation, which Google has shipped on Android phones for several years. The Wall Street Journal reported in June that Google also wanted more prominent branding and the ability to add features like Latitude, and executives at the search giant were unhappy with Apple's renewal terms. But the existing deal between the two companies was still valid and didn't have any additional requirements, according to our sources — Apple decided to simply end it and ship the new maps with turn-by-turn."
http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/25/3407614/apple-over-a-year-...
"For its part, Apple apparently felt that the older Google Maps-powered Maps in iOS were falling behind Android — particularly since they didn't have access to turn-by-turn navigation, which Google has shipped on Android phones for several years. The Wall Street Journal reported in June that Google also wanted more prominent branding and the ability to add features like Latitude, and executives at the search giant were unhappy with Apple's renewal terms. But the existing deal between the two companies was still valid and didn't have any additional requirements, according to our sources — Apple decided to simply end it and ship the new maps with turn-by-turn."
http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/25/3407614/apple-over-a-year-...
I don't see how that disagrees with my point. Apple deciding not to allow Google to add in turn by turn in exchange for Latitude is an Apple decision and not a Google one. Google isn't just going to give them more for free.
At the risk of making a poorly drawn simile, it would be like if I wanted an In N Out animal style burger, but didn't want the calories. So I decide to make my own inferior turkey burger. The decision to not have an awesome animal style burger that also comes with additional calories is my own, not that of In N Outs. The obvious problem with this simile is that In N Out doesn't have a ton of choice about the caloric content of its burgers, nor does it profit from the additional caloric content, but you get my point. If Google had not given Apple a choice, then yes, it would have been Google's decision. But ultimately, it was Apple who decided against giving Google more. As the article says
>The reports were validated earlier today by Google chairman Eric Schmidt, who was quoted by Reuters saying "what were we going to do, force them not to change their mind? It's their call."
At the risk of making a poorly drawn simile, it would be like if I wanted an In N Out animal style burger, but didn't want the calories. So I decide to make my own inferior turkey burger. The decision to not have an awesome animal style burger that also comes with additional calories is my own, not that of In N Outs. The obvious problem with this simile is that In N Out doesn't have a ton of choice about the caloric content of its burgers, nor does it profit from the additional caloric content, but you get my point. If Google had not given Apple a choice, then yes, it would have been Google's decision. But ultimately, it was Apple who decided against giving Google more. As the article says
>The reports were validated earlier today by Google chairman Eric Schmidt, who was quoted by Reuters saying "what were we going to do, force them not to change their mind? It's their call."
> "Apple deciding not to allow Google to add in turn by turn"
I find this wording confusing.
It is more fair and more clearer to break the two sides up: The old "Maps" application and any new feature was done by Apple. It was Google who decided to explicitly disallow the usage of their back-end data for turn-by-turn. Which they are of course free to do. And it was Apple who decided not to allow Google control (and user data collection) in a key app. Which is also understandable.
I find this wording confusing.
It is more fair and more clearer to break the two sides up: The old "Maps" application and any new feature was done by Apple. It was Google who decided to explicitly disallow the usage of their back-end data for turn-by-turn. Which they are of course free to do. And it was Apple who decided not to allow Google control (and user data collection) in a key app. Which is also understandable.
> I don't see how that disagrees with my point.
Your point was worded as if Apple had a free choice, buffet style, of which features to have or not. Say Apple wants A but not B, and Google will only sell A+B. Your wording suggests that Apple turned down A, when really they turned down B, so had no option to get A.
Your point was worded as if Apple had a free choice, buffet style, of which features to have or not. Say Apple wants A but not B, and Google will only sell A+B. Your wording suggests that Apple turned down A, when really they turned down B, so had no option to get A.
"I would just like to make a completely speculative, and probably erroneous assersion as fact...."
"I would just like to make a completely speculative, and probably erroneous assersion as fact about your speculation."
FTFY.
FTFY.
An Apple decision? Where is your evidence? I have eaxctly as much evidence that it was a Google decision.
Well I am, upgraded my iPad to iOS 6 and that leaves me with Apple Maps in the maps app. A number of places around San Carlos California aren't in their maps "by default", if you search for them it can find the Yelp reviews and then put down a push pin. So before when I was 'searching' for a place to eat I could look at the map and see all the restaurants and find what I wanted, now I see some but not nearly a representative batch. Actually searching for something like Pizza or Mexican food will drop down a dozen pins and more than half of them land on what is drawn as blank space on the map.
So perhaps Google was just better at guessing the kinds of queries I might be making when I opened maps.
So perhaps Google was just better at guessing the kinds of queries I might be making when I opened maps.
I'm in London, and I'd say it's a small step backwards. The points of interest from Yelp appear to be consistently off by about 10 metres, and many points of interest are missing altogether. I do like the way you can click on a point of interest, which is something you couldn't do in the old Maps app.
So far, all the addresses I've tried are correct, and the driving directions and speech recognition are a step forward. The tube/bus directions from Google were always inaccurate, so I was already using a dedicated app.
So far, all the addresses I've tried are correct, and the driving directions and speech recognition are a step forward. The tube/bus directions from Google were always inaccurate, so I was already using a dedicated app.
Yelp's points of interest are frequently at the wrong location. I've noticed this using Yelp's native app, which displays things on Google maps, ironically (ironically because Google knows the correct location if you search for the same place by name; I heard that Yelp stores lat/long for each place instead of letting Google look it up by name).
In my experience, this problem with Yelp's data is worse in Europe than the USA.
In my experience, this problem with Yelp's data is worse in Europe than the USA.
I've been using WAZE for months and before that GPS Drive. Better turn by turn has been available on iPhone for a while. There's no excuse for Apple's poor offering
In Germany you pretty much have no data as soon as you leave the streets for cars. While driving directions might actually be okay, as soon as you walk around and leave the city roads it's getting bad. And even if they have the data, it's displayed in a horrible color palette, a lack of contrast and a very low information desitity:
http://i.imgur.com/Dktjo.jpg - This is the view of a nearby wood in Apple Maps. Take a look at those thin grey lines in the big green area. I'm not sure if I could see them on the map walking there in bright sunlight. If you zoom out just a little more, the trails vanish completely from the map and the whole screen is just a big green area. To actually see a trail well enough you have to zoom in so much that you lose the overview and don't know where you're actually looking.
http://i.imgur.com/DDx7R.png - This is the same are in Google Maps. Great contrast, good color palette and you can distinguish the larger from the smaller trails and roads. There's also a lot more information.
http://i.imgur.com/Dktjo.jpg - This is the view of a nearby wood in Apple Maps. Take a look at those thin grey lines in the big green area. I'm not sure if I could see them on the map walking there in bright sunlight. If you zoom out just a little more, the trails vanish completely from the map and the whole screen is just a big green area. To actually see a trail well enough you have to zoom in so much that you lose the overview and don't know where you're actually looking.
http://i.imgur.com/DDx7R.png - This is the same are in Google Maps. Great contrast, good color palette and you can distinguish the larger from the smaller trails and roads. There's also a lot more information.
Did you not just read Tim Cook admit that the new Maps is inferior?
Using Maps in NYC is a joke. Aside from no public trans (not a big deal; that's easy enough to work around), it's totally wrong with POIs. It even places the Met about, oh, 100 blocks south of where it actually is. Absolutely worthless.
It takes 2 to tango, Apple would not have done this without a gun at their heads. iOS maps were clearly behind the state of the art and it was, for some reason, impossible to modernise them.
The gossip is that Google requested unacceptable licensing changes. Whatever the truth is, this situation is due to Apple and Google being unable to reach an agreement. Apple can and will recover this situation within a few months and, if Google dropped them into this situation, they will be looking for an opportunity to exact revenge.
The gossip is that Google requested unacceptable licensing changes. Whatever the truth is, this situation is due to Apple and Google being unable to reach an agreement. Apple can and will recover this situation within a few months and, if Google dropped them into this situation, they will be looking for an opportunity to exact revenge.
Software companies always issues letters of sorry. Maybe you are just not paying attention or have no idea what is going on in the software community.
Or perhaps you prefer this flavor of kool-aid.
Apple had 3 options:
1. Delay release of product
2. Pull maps, release
3. Release an app with bugs
They chose 3. So what, happens all the time. But don't call this letter noble nor novel.
>This couldn't have been out of spite. Just to kick Google off the platform.
I think you are being generous. I really think that's what it was about. It actually is the Occam's Razor explanation.
I think you are being generous. I really think that's what it was about. It actually is the Occam's Razor explanation.
Loosing simultaneous voice and data was a painful lesson too. Was trying to get a taxi, they asked the address, it wasn't on the building. Tried to look it up, realized I couldn't.
Maps is just one item in the iPhone launch that doesn't look to good for Apple. Sure, they are going to sell millions of iPhone 5s but it's the little things that have just never happened:
1. Maps is in beta, when Apple never let anyone see anything without polish.
2. There were no cases or accessories in the Apple store. Best Buy has third party stuff as do other stores. But that is money left on the table for someone else to pick up.
3. No adapters. The local Apple store didn't get any and doesn't expect them for weeks.
I half-joked to my wife that this post-Jobs era is already starting to unravel. Only half because I worry I am right and I don't want to be.
1. Maps is in beta, when Apple never let anyone see anything without polish.
2. There were no cases or accessories in the Apple store. Best Buy has third party stuff as do other stores. But that is money left on the table for someone else to pick up.
3. No adapters. The local Apple store didn't get any and doesn't expect them for weeks.
I half-joked to my wife that this post-Jobs era is already starting to unravel. Only half because I worry I am right and I don't want to be.
Jobs was well known for being biased to shipping over having a perfect product aka "Real Artists Ship". The first version of OSX had non-functional CD writing, from what I recall (fixed in the first update). Siri was released as beta, attenagate, the iMovie and Final Cut rewrites -- these all happened under Jobs.
Thank you - I think people are forgetting such misses as the Cube when Jobs first came back. I remember very distinctly after taking it off the market his comments about not always being able to get it right but they must continue to try and push the envelope. To add to your list btw, he also let MobileMe ship which no one agreed was up to snuff and he acknowledged later by firing the entire team.
Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.
They know exactly that. Luckily, it's a server driven service, so over time everything can magically get better. They are going to aggressively harvest user data throughout the getting better process. Their options were: launch bad and get better as fast as possible (using millions of devices for feedback) or spend a few years doing things by hand then still releasing something subpar. Rip the bandaid off now.
In every other case HN screams "more data > clever algorithms!" -- this is their way of more data. It'll be painful at first, but it will get better quickly. It has only been a week since public public release. It has been sucking in betas for months too. None of this is new, exciting, or newsworthy. Release your burdens and get back to work.
They know exactly that. Luckily, it's a server driven service, so over time everything can magically get better. They are going to aggressively harvest user data throughout the getting better process. Their options were: launch bad and get better as fast as possible (using millions of devices for feedback) or spend a few years doing things by hand then still releasing something subpar. Rip the bandaid off now.
In every other case HN screams "more data > clever algorithms!" -- this is their way of more data. It'll be painful at first, but it will get better quickly. It has only been a week since public public release. It has been sucking in betas for months too. None of this is new, exciting, or newsworthy. Release your burdens and get back to work.
People keep saying "this is their way of more data". Can someone explain exactly how this data is acquired? If I enter an address, and it gives me the wrong location, how does it know that it was wrong? How does it get better data?
If one query matches multiple results, you can observe which result users tap and sort that one to the top. Or, if the user types in a query, gets no results, then types in a similar query and selects a result, you know that the first is likely to have been a misspelling/alternate spelling. If lots of users type in a query and don't get results, then that query can be flagged for further investigation. And so on.
All of this in addition to users reporting erroneous results.
All of this in addition to users reporting erroneous results.
And just entering the address/location queries (whether they succeed or not, and whether the user's own satisfaction is implicit or explicit) gives Apple bulk who-queries-what-from-where data that can be manually reviewed or automated-tested in followup processes.
For example, they know how dense their geo-data is; where does the volume of queries most exceed the existing density of data? Which queries actually result in someone following instructions to their terminus, and then not requerying again for a while?
Also: while Apple doesn't have a toolbar reporting every query and click into Google Maps -- as with the Google-Bing search results dustup of February 2011 -- they could be using their own automated process to trickle queries into Google Maps APIs and highlight major discrepancies with their own answers, for engineer/data-entry attention.
For example, they know how dense their geo-data is; where does the volume of queries most exceed the existing density of data? Which queries actually result in someone following instructions to their terminus, and then not requerying again for a while?
Also: while Apple doesn't have a toolbar reporting every query and click into Google Maps -- as with the Google-Bing search results dustup of February 2011 -- they could be using their own automated process to trickle queries into Google Maps APIs and highlight major discrepancies with their own answers, for engineer/data-entry attention.
using their own automated process to trickle queries into Google Maps APIs and highlight major discrepancies with their own answers
Cool idea; I wonder if it'd run afoul of copyright laws though.
Cool idea; I wonder if it'd run afoul of copyright laws though.
Good question, I've wondered this myself.
I'm not in this domain, but they do have the location of millions of phones as they move around during the time the Maps app is open. This could solve problems like adjustment of roadway locations, finding one-way streets, identifying highly-used locations. If people take a different route than the one recommended, this is also a clue.
The location information would also provide a focus-of-attention mechanism (concentrate manual effort along oft-driven routes).
I'm not familiar enough with their privacy rules to understand what portion of this data was already available to Apple versus stuff that is only available on the server side.
I'm not in this domain, but they do have the location of millions of phones as they move around during the time the Maps app is open. This could solve problems like adjustment of roadway locations, finding one-way streets, identifying highly-used locations. If people take a different route than the one recommended, this is also a clue.
The location information would also provide a focus-of-attention mechanism (concentrate manual effort along oft-driven routes).
I'm not familiar enough with their privacy rules to understand what portion of this data was already available to Apple versus stuff that is only available on the server side.
You can tap "Report a Problem" under the page curl.
And what minuscule percent of people even notice that there is a page curl?
And what even smaller percentage of people go through the trouble of reporting an error event if they do see the curl? It feels weird to pay for a service, and then have to actively work to make it better.. (by paying, I mean buying an ios device..).
Then I understand the release and iterate strategy, and I'm sure it applies in many situations. But when you are Apple and have painfully built a reputation of releasing only great products, you may want to think more than twice before crippling your star product, even if it's just a little.
Then I understand the release and iterate strategy, and I'm sure it applies in many situations. But when you are Apple and have painfully built a reputation of releasing only great products, you may want to think more than twice before crippling your star product, even if it's just a little.
As these threads have demonstrated, I think a segment of the population is actually highly interested in accurate maps.
Weird as it sounds (not being sarcastic), I think people will actually report problems, especially in their own neighborhoods or places where they travel and know well.
Weird as it sounds (not being sarcastic), I think people will actually report problems, especially in their own neighborhoods or places where they travel and know well.
The problem for Apple is, they'll get a bug report something like:
Your maps is rubbish, I couldn't find the park, where is streetview too!
They will then have to have someone look at that data, try to find the area, a park nearby, compare with whatever licensed satellite data they have, and try to redraw that section, or they have to request new data from tomtom, wait a year, and hope it is fixed. That is a huge task, and not one I'm confident Apple will ever manage to pull off. The satellite data they have put into the app is appalling so if they try to use that as a reference...
And that's for the 0.5% of people who bother to report a problem - the rest will just lower their opinion of Apple and look at other solutions next time they're shopping for a device.
Your maps is rubbish, I couldn't find the park, where is streetview too!
They will then have to have someone look at that data, try to find the area, a park nearby, compare with whatever licensed satellite data they have, and try to redraw that section, or they have to request new data from tomtom, wait a year, and hope it is fixed. That is a huge task, and not one I'm confident Apple will ever manage to pull off. The satellite data they have put into the app is appalling so if they try to use that as a reference...
And that's for the 0.5% of people who bother to report a problem - the rest will just lower their opinion of Apple and look at other solutions next time they're shopping for a device.
There's a button in the app to report inaccurate data on all POIs. If something is wrong, use it.
They would do well to make that more prominent especially in the short-term to better handle their growing pains here, but it is a quite solvable problem. Unfortunately for Apple, Google has invested nearly a decade and who knows how much money into Maps (they were straight-up paying cash for business listings at one point, and may still do so) - so the standard with which they're competing is extremely high.
They would do well to make that more prominent especially in the short-term to better handle their growing pains here, but it is a quite solvable problem. Unfortunately for Apple, Google has invested nearly a decade and who knows how much money into Maps (they were straight-up paying cash for business listings at one point, and may still do so) - so the standard with which they're competing is extremely high.
So, use your paying customers as beta testers? Not an ideal solution.
c.f. every google product ever
Seems exactly wrong to me - Google uses its free customers as beta testers, whereas its paying customers (Google Apps users) don't get to see the products until a year later.
You don't think Android 1.0, 1.6, 2.1, and 2.2 weren't a beta test of sorts? There wasn't even a software keyboard for a year after Android showed up.
iOS maps is in the same position that AndroidOS was in a year or two after the iPhone appeared. Substandard in comparison, largely functional with big gaps, but an expectation of quick improvement.
iOS maps is in the same position that AndroidOS was in a year or two after the iPhone appeared. Substandard in comparison, largely functional with big gaps, but an expectation of quick improvement.
Google does not "sell" Android to you. It's free for anyone to use. Take it up with the OEMs.
You are right they don't "sell" Android to you they enter commercial agreements with manufacturers to provide them with Android enabled with Google Services imposing significant conditions on them.
Then they sell you and your data to advertisers.
I'd rather pay for something than be sold.
Then they sell you and your data to advertisers.
I'd rather pay for something than be sold.
"Release early, release often" is good advice, and in that sense there's nothing wrong with using customers as "beta testers". No matter how good your QA department is, there're always unanticipated issues when you release at massive scale and push something to dozens of millions of users.
But you don't just rip out something millions of people depend upon for a function as critical as safe navigation in unfamiliar areas and replace it with something that has constant, pervasive issues performing its basic operations. A custom Maps application and dataset is a good business move, but you have to make sure it's at least a minimum viable product before you do the kind of rollout that Apple has done.
When Google replaces Gmail with the shinier "Googmail" and 25%+ of mail to the new service comes back undeliverable, and there's no reasonable method to revert to plain old Gmail, you'll have a comparable quagmire. The fact is that while Apple's Maps may occasionally work sort of well, the failure rates are unacceptably high; too high for anyone to trust the program any more.
It will take years to undo the damage from this, and I fully expect a good portion of people to swap iPhone for Android as a result.
But you don't just rip out something millions of people depend upon for a function as critical as safe navigation in unfamiliar areas and replace it with something that has constant, pervasive issues performing its basic operations. A custom Maps application and dataset is a good business move, but you have to make sure it's at least a minimum viable product before you do the kind of rollout that Apple has done.
When Google replaces Gmail with the shinier "Googmail" and 25%+ of mail to the new service comes back undeliverable, and there's no reasonable method to revert to plain old Gmail, you'll have a comparable quagmire. The fact is that while Apple's Maps may occasionally work sort of well, the failure rates are unacceptably high; too high for anyone to trust the program any more.
It will take years to undo the damage from this, and I fully expect a good portion of people to swap iPhone for Android as a result.
It is a minimum viable product. If Apple maps shipped on the first version of the iphone no one would be complaining about it. As it is it now it takes away features that people are were used to using.
It's not a minimum viable product. If it were, Apple wouldn't be writing this letter. Maybe it would have been viable in the past (also more widely considered viable in the past: paper atlases), but it's not viable today in this context (perhaps it could have been viable as an optional beta, instead of an irrevocable feature regression) as demonstrated by this apology letter. You don't have to write apology letters for viable stuff.
How many Google products have you used?
How many did you pay for?
How many did you pay for?
Whether monetarily or otherwise, you are paying.
You mean the ones that are explicitly labelled "beta"?
Google's 'beta' is equivalent to spiderman's broadway 'previews'. When they open to the public, start amassing huge amounts of user data, using the public for R&D, call it what you want, the public is paying.
iOS is a free operating system. You are only paying for the device.
What alternative OS can I run on the device?
A fuzzy distinction at best. You can't get an iPhone without iOS, and you can't get iOS without an iPhone/iPod.
What a specious argument. And in other stories, blogs and comments, we hear that Apple takes 80% of the mobile industry's profits and about the high margins on iProducts and the $100B+ cash hoard that they have. But now the tone is all about how poor Apple was forced into a corner by Google and others and had to subject its users to bad maps.
Guess what? Maps is hard. Why did Nokia buy Navteq in 2008 for a whopping $8B? Why do you think Amazon recently choose to license Navteq maps from Nokia for their Kindle tablets' Maps API?
Given that Amazon makes $7 million profit a quarter and Apple makes $4M profit an hour like Gruber sneeringly likes to remind us[1], is it wrong to expect better maps from a phone that costs much more than a run of the mill cheap Android phone? What excuse is there for driving directions that direct you to drive on train tracks? [2]
[1] http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/07/27/amzn-profit-corr...
[2] http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/image/32188632467
Guess what? Maps is hard. Why did Nokia buy Navteq in 2008 for a whopping $8B? Why do you think Amazon recently choose to license Navteq maps from Nokia for their Kindle tablets' Maps API?
Given that Amazon makes $7 million profit a quarter and Apple makes $4M profit an hour like Gruber sneeringly likes to remind us[1], is it wrong to expect better maps from a phone that costs much more than a run of the mill cheap Android phone? What excuse is there for driving directions that direct you to drive on train tracks? [2]
[1] http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/07/27/amzn-profit-corr...
[2] http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/image/32188632467
> What excuse is there for driving directions that direct you to drive on train tracks? [2]
Judging by all the cars parked on both sides of the track, there's probably a driveable surface there too. Not uncommon.
Judging by all the cars parked on both sides of the track, there's probably a driveable surface there too. Not uncommon.
How many people would buy an iPhone without iOS, or even with a poorly implemented iOS? Far fewer.
Apple sells an experience — the whole package. They always have. That's why Antennagate, a hardware issue, and Maps, a software issue, are equally frustrating and newsworthy. Apple proposes to remove the hardware/software distinction and deliver a magical device that just works.
Maps no longer just work for many people. And that's the problem with magic. It's very brittle. The clock strikes midnight and everyone turns back into a pumpkin, the ball is over. And so many people are frustrated, because they pay a premium for this abstraction, this magic, and it has disappeared, and that annoys them, and it scares them, because if Maps can stop working when it used to work, then so can my Phone, and my Email, and all my kids' baby pictures, and overnight, Apple's customers no longer feel in control.
I like the new maps (I live in Austin, the data seems pretty solid.) But this letter is a big deal. For the first time that I'm aware of, Apple has publicly admitted that there is no Wizard of Oz, and they're just a man behind the curtain, and would you please bear with us while we iron out the glitches?
Apple sells an experience — the whole package. They always have. That's why Antennagate, a hardware issue, and Maps, a software issue, are equally frustrating and newsworthy. Apple proposes to remove the hardware/software distinction and deliver a magical device that just works.
Maps no longer just work for many people. And that's the problem with magic. It's very brittle. The clock strikes midnight and everyone turns back into a pumpkin, the ball is over. And so many people are frustrated, because they pay a premium for this abstraction, this magic, and it has disappeared, and that annoys them, and it scares them, because if Maps can stop working when it used to work, then so can my Phone, and my Email, and all my kids' baby pictures, and overnight, Apple's customers no longer feel in control.
I like the new maps (I live in Austin, the data seems pretty solid.) But this letter is a big deal. For the first time that I'm aware of, Apple has publicly admitted that there is no Wizard of Oz, and they're just a man behind the curtain, and would you please bear with us while we iron out the glitches?
The old Maps app was also coded by Apple. Is there any (legal? practical?) reason why they didn't collect usage data from that?
Completely agree. Perhaps I don't rely on the app as much as others, but I do find myself using it at least once a week. I personally haven't had any real problems since launch. But expected there to be quite a few hurdles at first. I'm an iOS user, but don't consider myself a fanboy. But I expect them to really push this and create something beautiful and useful over time, hopefully sooner than later. I'm anxiously awaiting.
Just want to point out that back-end improvements alone aren't sufficient to have Apple's Maps be on par with Google Maps. Adding something like Street View to Maps will require non-trivial updates to the iOS app (not to mention the colossal task of gathering and processing the street view data).
There's no indication they'll ever have something like Street View -- or rather, what's "like" it is the 3D flyover mode.
In practice the back end is really the main thing that they need to worry about. I'd argue, in fact, that the first order of business is straightening out the point of interest database, which seems to be where the majority of genuine problems are coming from. The second order of business is ensuring cartographic completeness and correctness, i.e., making sure that roads (and even the occasional town) are actually present and in the right place. Things like fuzzy terrain tiles or bad 3D meshes may be the most fun to take screen captures of for point-and-laugh purposes, but it's far more important to me that the maps application can tell me how to get to the Brooklyn Bridge than whether it can render a pretty 3D model of it.
In practice the back end is really the main thing that they need to worry about. I'd argue, in fact, that the first order of business is straightening out the point of interest database, which seems to be where the majority of genuine problems are coming from. The second order of business is ensuring cartographic completeness and correctness, i.e., making sure that roads (and even the occasional town) are actually present and in the right place. Things like fuzzy terrain tiles or bad 3D meshes may be the most fun to take screen captures of for point-and-laugh purposes, but it's far more important to me that the maps application can tell me how to get to the Brooklyn Bridge than whether it can render a pretty 3D model of it.
>this is their way of more data. It'll be painful at first, but it will get better quickly
Reporting mapping errors on a small device is painful and cumbersome, especially if you're outdoors or trying to get somewhere. Like Google, Bing or Nokia maps, can you access and report errors in the maps from a laptop or desktop? If not, this process is going to be way slower.
Reporting mapping errors on a small device is painful and cumbersome, especially if you're outdoors or trying to get somewhere. Like Google, Bing or Nokia maps, can you access and report errors in the maps from a laptop or desktop? If not, this process is going to be way slower.
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/
> We want to do the right thing for our valued iPhone customers. We apologize for disappointing some of you, and we are doing our best to live up to your high expectations of Apple.
Steve Jobs
Apple CEO
> We want to do the right thing for our valued iPhone customers. We apologize for disappointing some of you, and we are doing our best to live up to your high expectations of Apple.
Steve Jobs
Apple CEO
Gizmodo claims to know why Google Maps were dropped: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4577866
According to their sources, Google was keeping Apple from adding turn-by-turn directions without complying to some conditions that were too onerous for Apple.
According to their sources, Google was keeping Apple from adding turn-by-turn directions without complying to some conditions that were too onerous for Apple.
> Apple engineers are not known for being dumb. Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.
Maps is a unique problem in that it's hard to judge quality without doing field tests all over the world. I guess Apple management/engineers/testers live in and did most of their testing in SFO/CA/West Coast/US in that order which gave them a skewed idea of how good or bad the maps were.
Maps is a unique problem in that it's hard to judge quality without doing field tests all over the world. I guess Apple management/engineers/testers live in and did most of their testing in SFO/CA/West Coast/US in that order which gave them a skewed idea of how good or bad the maps were.
I've found the new maps app is dramatically better in most ways. Turn by turn navigation is fantastic. Lack of public transit is a huge downer.
I guess I just live somewhere with decent map data.
I guess I just live somewhere with decent map data.
I live in the Bay Area and my town isn't even named on Apple Maps. The streets are there, but they show it with the wrong name. I could understand if this was an obscure little English hamlet in the wilds of Norfolk, but this is the San Francisco Bay Area.
Google was not going to give them turn-by-turn and they didn't want to keep falling behind. The only choice was to pull off the band-aid, release an inferior service, and then improve it with the help of users.
Yes, exactly. I'm not sure why some people think this is still a mystery - Apple's negotiation with Google on adding features like turn-by-turn navigation to iOS maps failed (we don't know who if anyone was at fault, but it is reasonable to assume Google would be cautious about adding a powerful feature to the main competitor of Android).
My understanding is that negotiations broke down because Apple wanted turn-by-turn navigation but in exchange Google wanting more branding and Latitude integration.
http://allthingsd.com/20120926/apple-google-maps-talks-crash...
http://allthingsd.com/20120926/apple-google-maps-talks-crash...
Didn't Netflix issues an apology for their attempted split?
Regarding knowing maps wasn't up to snuff... I think people knew but it's a funny thing. I worked on satellite receivers in a different life and TV has become such a ubiquitous and reliable enough service, you'd be amazed at how people just freak the hell out when their complex HD dual tuner PVR does something that's not as expected; just freak the hell out and scream at support folks. Little old ladies watching re-runs that they've seen before would melt down, it was interesting, almost like drug withdrawal or something. (Enough so that for certain events: the SuperBowl, the Academy Awards, sweeps season) they wouldn't do system updates. Maps is maybe a little less like that but it's much more personal, I've used the new maps with no problems but I just did a couple basic searches to check it out. However when you're counting on it to get you somewhere and it fails and you're late for whatever it is or you can't make a purchase because you're not at the store and it impacts you directly it's probably pretty upsetting. Gauging that personal rage is more difficult and I expect there are areas where the new maps really kills it, I bet the guys in Cupertino don't have problems with it doing their day to day stuff.. Don't forget, we didn't have these maps not that long ago, hard as it seems now pre-iPhone next to nobody was using this stuff, now it's substantial navigational aid.
As a society, we sort of like it when #1 has some trouble. Sort of like Toyota's problems a couple years back. The real question is is this going to raise the benchmark? Say Apple takes it to heart completely, it's hard to compete with them now, what's it look like if they step it up more? It certainly says something to google maps' quality, maybe some more competition is a good thing.
Regarding knowing maps wasn't up to snuff... I think people knew but it's a funny thing. I worked on satellite receivers in a different life and TV has become such a ubiquitous and reliable enough service, you'd be amazed at how people just freak the hell out when their complex HD dual tuner PVR does something that's not as expected; just freak the hell out and scream at support folks. Little old ladies watching re-runs that they've seen before would melt down, it was interesting, almost like drug withdrawal or something. (Enough so that for certain events: the SuperBowl, the Academy Awards, sweeps season) they wouldn't do system updates. Maps is maybe a little less like that but it's much more personal, I've used the new maps with no problems but I just did a couple basic searches to check it out. However when you're counting on it to get you somewhere and it fails and you're late for whatever it is or you can't make a purchase because you're not at the store and it impacts you directly it's probably pretty upsetting. Gauging that personal rage is more difficult and I expect there are areas where the new maps really kills it, I bet the guys in Cupertino don't have problems with it doing their day to day stuff.. Don't forget, we didn't have these maps not that long ago, hard as it seems now pre-iPhone next to nobody was using this stuff, now it's substantial navigational aid.
As a society, we sort of like it when #1 has some trouble. Sort of like Toyota's problems a couple years back. The real question is is this going to raise the benchmark? Say Apple takes it to heart completely, it's hard to compete with them now, what's it look like if they step it up more? It certainly says something to google maps' quality, maybe some more competition is a good thing.
It would be interesting to know how much decisions at Google had to play in all this happening. I'm sure they knew how much value they added to Apple's platform, and with the continued rise of Android it's certainly possible they saw this as an opportunity to have yet another reason for customers to leave iOS and come to Android.
The iPhone 5 and iOS 6 are merely evolutions of what came before them, and there are very few reasons for people to upgrade. Apple runs a real risk of losing customers over this (i.e., people keep their perfectly good iDevice and buy an Android/WP device to try them out). Maybe this is the proverbial kick in the pants that Apple needs to make sure the next iPhone and iOS version are more baked coming out the door.
The iPhone 5 and iOS 6 are merely evolutions of what came before them, and there are very few reasons for people to upgrade. Apple runs a real risk of losing customers over this (i.e., people keep their perfectly good iDevice and buy an Android/WP device to try them out). Maybe this is the proverbial kick in the pants that Apple needs to make sure the next iPhone and iOS version are more baked coming out the door.
> As a developer there's a lesson that needs reinforcing every-so-often. What better way to reinforce it than to see a tech giant make some of the mistakes lesser companies make: If you can at all help it, don't base your product on someone else's technology. Don't make someone else's technology such an important part of your offering that not having them will hurt you. Of course, sometimes you have no choice.
It seems like this is evidence of the opposite. Apple based its technology on another company, and it became the most valuable company in the world. It stopped using the other companies tech, and then it was forced to make an embarrassing public apology.
It seems like this is evidence of the opposite. Apple based its technology on another company, and it became the most valuable company in the world. It stopped using the other companies tech, and then it was forced to make an embarrassing public apology.
That is pretty superficial. Apple wanted turn by turn directions on the built in maps app for years. Google wouldn't license it.
That is a lesson on the risks of depending on other platforms.
However, we are all dependent on others all the time. It really can't be avoided entirely. It's just a matter of degree and managing risk.
That is a lesson on the risks of depending on other platforms.
However, we are all dependent on others all the time. It really can't be avoided entirely. It's just a matter of degree and managing risk.
Apple had an existing agreement with Google for the data used in the old Maps app for one more year, and they chose to terminate it early. They could have released New Maps alongside Old Maps, made them optional for a year while the data matures, and none of this would have been an issue.
http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/25/3407614/apple-over-a-year-...
http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/25/3407614/apple-over-a-year-...
I wonder if this means iOS <6 maps will stop working in a year.
> What to say? The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels unprecedented.
Steve Jobs held a press conference for "Antennagate": http://www.apple.com/apple-events/july-2010/
Steve Jobs held a press conference for "Antennagate": http://www.apple.com/apple-events/july-2010/
That is so awesome. I've never seen it until now.
They start off with a terrible random YouTube video crying over "GizModo propaganda". They then spend a minute on how they are not perfect, matched only by the following 9 minutes for showing how others are not perfect.
Then they tell everyone "you're just holding it wrong" and insult people with "X marks the spot" and "look at this beautiful line here".
I couldn't stand much more after that. That is not an apology, it's a display of arrogance. And some might very well claim that this whole Map thing is a result of the dysfunctional work environment people are under at Apple.
Then they tell everyone "you're just holding it wrong" and insult people with "X marks the spot" and "look at this beautiful line here".
I couldn't stand much more after that. That is not an apology, it's a display of arrogance. And some might very well claim that this whole Map thing is a result of the dysfunctional work environment people are under at Apple.
But it worked. Before that the hyperbolic tech media was "How the iPhone 4 sucks because of the Death grip". And after that the tech bloggers were "Why Apples comparison with other phones is a bit unfair, because HTC XYZ does need x seconds longer to be death gripped", which isn't that quite catchy and sexy. Steve Jobs changed the conversation. And even if you dislike his not quite suppressed snarkyness (which I loved, because the issue was blown out of proportion), it is interesting to note how successful Apples reaction turned out to be. Case in point: They still sell the iPhone 4 physically unchanged (I think?) and the issue just doesn't matter today anymore.
I believe the antenna was slightly different for the verizon versions. But the ATT iphone 4 hasn't been changed that I'm aware of.
My brother and I both got iPhone 4's around the same time and we both have AT&T. He had death grip issues and I did not, simply because he is left handed.
So you started out wanting to hate Apple, looked for evidence to back up your prejudice and were successful.
He also decried most of the controversy as confusion and press hype. "We're not perfect, phones aren't perfect."
This letter says "We are extremely sorry." Extremely! Imagine Steve Jobs saying, "I am extremely sorry" is tough to imagine. Possible, but tough to imagine.
This letter says "We are extremely sorry." Extremely! Imagine Steve Jobs saying, "I am extremely sorry" is tough to imagine. Possible, but tough to imagine.
Soon after the original iPhone launch Apple posted a letter apologizing for the price drop so soon after the initial launch.
"We apologize for disappointing some of you..."
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/
Like Cook's letter, it was reactionary and came after the price drop was poorly received. They've used this medium quite a few times for specific things (letter against Flash and against DRM). Generally, to clarify their current position or to apologies.
Like Cook's letter, it was reactionary and came after the price drop was poorly received. They've used this medium quite a few times for specific things (letter against Flash and against DRM). Generally, to clarify their current position or to apologies.
[deleted]
Good example, definitely shows this is not "unprecedented" as OP says. Except maybe for the "extremely sorry" part :)
Loved the ending about "behind the scenes" and "take care of everyone". Mafia reading of this was that overseas distributors of cases got unhappy and put out the videos. Apple says so solly, and now "everybody" is happy again.
"Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know.
So the question might very well be: Why did they do it?"
A theory:
Maybe they did it because Apple has an unhealthy, top-down corporate culture that doesn't encourage dissent or whistle-blowing? Nobody said stop because it isn't the Apple way?
To me (not an Apple user or Apple employee) their corporate culture, their values, are defined by secrecy, leader-worship, and a particular kind arrogance. Not necessarily at the level of individual employees, but throughout the organisation as a whole. In such environments, especially when the company is highly successful and seems to be able to do no wrong, it becomes difficult for individuals and even groups to say stop. And even bad ideas and technologies gain momentum.
Apple is a great company, make great products, and deserve their success. I just hope that Tim Cook is trying to get rid of the leader worship that surrounded Steve Jobs.
A theory:
Maybe they did it because Apple has an unhealthy, top-down corporate culture that doesn't encourage dissent or whistle-blowing? Nobody said stop because it isn't the Apple way?
To me (not an Apple user or Apple employee) their corporate culture, their values, are defined by secrecy, leader-worship, and a particular kind arrogance. Not necessarily at the level of individual employees, but throughout the organisation as a whole. In such environments, especially when the company is highly successful and seems to be able to do no wrong, it becomes difficult for individuals and even groups to say stop. And even bad ideas and technologies gain momentum.
Apple is a great company, make great products, and deserve their success. I just hope that Tim Cook is trying to get rid of the leader worship that surrounded Steve Jobs.
Too much judgment.
You're assuming Apple had other choice other than make a Maps.app from the ground up. I don't think it's the case. All the apps that used Google's data (YouTube, Maps) just stopped getting updates after Android. It's obvious their contract with Google ended and they had to ship something. I'm sure everybody acknowledged the solution was subpar, just saying "it sucks, don't ship it" isn't a solution.
You're assuming Apple had other choice other than make a Maps.app from the ground up. I don't think it's the case. All the apps that used Google's data (YouTube, Maps) just stopped getting updates after Android. It's obvious their contract with Google ended and they had to ship something. I'm sure everybody acknowledged the solution was subpar, just saying "it sucks, don't ship it" isn't a solution.
Perhaps I am being too judgmental. I have know special knowledge of Apple's corporate culture. I'm just saying how it seems to me.
I agree that Apple had to cut loose from Google and develop their own mapping. And they needed new features for the iPhone 6 launch, which gave them a hard schedule limit.
Maybe "everybody" did decide that the mapping sucked but they had to ship it. That seems rather un-Apple to me: they are obsessive about user experience and have cut features in the past when the tech didn't work. So I'm not convinced by that argument.
(Edit: added second para)
I agree that Apple had to cut loose from Google and develop their own mapping. And they needed new features for the iPhone 6 launch, which gave them a hard schedule limit.
Maybe "everybody" did decide that the mapping sucked but they had to ship it. That seems rather un-Apple to me: they are obsessive about user experience and have cut features in the past when the tech didn't work. So I'm not convinced by that argument.
(Edit: added second para)
If they felt they were forced by circumstances to ship the maps application now -- which there's at least some evidence of, if John Gruber's information about the way the Apple/Google contracts were timed is true -- then they'd kind of be in a Catch-22. What features could they have actually cut from the Maps app? The mistakes in 3D meshes and fuzzy terrain tiles make for the biggest point-and-laugh screen caps, and perhaps they could have cut that, but that would have caused just as much screaming. And the biggest issues really seem to be with the POI database, which you can't launch without. (And which, it should be noted, isn't something that Apple built on their own; at least in part, what Apple Maps is revealing is how bad a lot of other third-party geographic databases are compared to Google's.)
As for Apple's culture, well. I don't have special knowledge of it but I live in Silicon Valley and know a few people who've worked there or continue to work there, and your description about it doesn't seem to me to be accurate. There was a great deal of respect for Steve Jobs but there was no perception that he was always right. People did in fact push back against him, and he'd often listen. (And in cases where he didn't, there's still some controversy going on.) I think you're correct to surmise that there's a lot of arrogance in Apple's culture, mind you -- but I can assure you that Google's matches Apple's ego for ego. If anything, Google's corporate culture is more smug than Apple's, not less.
As for Apple's culture, well. I don't have special knowledge of it but I live in Silicon Valley and know a few people who've worked there or continue to work there, and your description about it doesn't seem to me to be accurate. There was a great deal of respect for Steve Jobs but there was no perception that he was always right. People did in fact push back against him, and he'd often listen. (And in cases where he didn't, there's still some controversy going on.) I think you're correct to surmise that there's a lot of arrogance in Apple's culture, mind you -- but I can assure you that Google's matches Apple's ego for ego. If anything, Google's corporate culture is more smug than Apple's, not less.
The app works fine. The user experience is better than the previous with the new features (navigation, voice). It's not a tech problem.
The whole problem revolves around business strategy. Mapping data. Google monopolizes this area, and the other providers are all tied to Apple's competitors (Microsoft, Nokia).
So either they come up with their own, or stay on the hands of competitors (since mapping is such a core feature).
I wish they adopt Open Street Maps, or contribute back to it. Mapping is one area where all good solutions are proprietary and in the hand of a few, it completely sucks.
The whole problem revolves around business strategy. Mapping data. Google monopolizes this area, and the other providers are all tied to Apple's competitors (Microsoft, Nokia).
So either they come up with their own, or stay on the hands of competitors (since mapping is such a core feature).
I wish they adopt Open Street Maps, or contribute back to it. Mapping is one area where all good solutions are proprietary and in the hand of a few, it completely sucks.
Apple uses Open Street Map. See here:
http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2012/03/08/welcome-apple/
Adopting/Contributing to the project as their number one mapping foundation would be nice and would have provided them tons of goodwill. But I guess Apple also wants to use OSM together with data from other commercial sources (tomtom).
http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2012/03/08/welcome-apple/
Adopting/Contributing to the project as their number one mapping foundation would be nice and would have provided them tons of goodwill. But I guess Apple also wants to use OSM together with data from other commercial sources (tomtom).
That applies to the strange, pre–iOS 6 iPhoto-specific map tiles. OSM is acknowledged in the new app's acknowledgements, but so far there are places where the Maps.app is less detailed than the basic OSM database – but no doubt this can and will get better.
At the same time, Google has a much more transparent culture and it still ended up with the Nexus Q, which was swiftly put on hold just a few weeks after it was announced.
http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/31/3207482/nexus-q-consumer-l...
http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/31/3207482/nexus-q-consumer-l...
The difference being that the nexus Q was a whole new product with absolutely no expectations set for it, not an existing products with millions of users. The Q was obviously a failed experiment, but experimentation in that way is healthy. obviously not every product is going to be a success, but when you're trying crazy new things with a high probility of failure, it's best not to do it on your flagship product and with no escape strategy.
The Nexus Q wikipedia page [1] says that its launch was postponed due to "feedback from users that the device had too few features for its price", not due to quality defects. It seems to me that Google made an honest effort to develop a product, and decided not to ship it for equally good reasons.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nexus_Q
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nexus_Q
This is interesting, it sounds like you don't have any first-hand experience with Maps being awful but are advising everyone you know not to upgrade to iOS 6.
Is that correct? I'm not saying it's unreasonable. It isn't the path I'd take though, and I find it a bit surprising.
I'm also curious, you say you have eight iOS devices and won't be upgrading any of them because of Maps. Do you use Maps on all of them? Or is your choice to upgrade none of them more about taking a stand?
Is that correct? I'm not saying it's unreasonable. It isn't the path I'd take though, and I find it a bit surprising.
I'm also curious, you say you have eight iOS devices and won't be upgrading any of them because of Maps. Do you use Maps on all of them? Or is your choice to upgrade none of them more about taking a stand?
> This feels unprecedented.
Hardly so – Apple had to issue a similar mea culpa for Mobile Me back around this time in 2008. The big difference is that instead of apologizing to a small subset of customers, Apple has had to address all iOS 6 users. So this time it has to come from the CEO. (But don't think for a minute Steve didn't help pen the last one.)
They've been here, with a mouthful of crow, before. Large-scale, cloud-based services are not in Apple's DNA, so every time they try it seems to hurt the first time around.
Hardly so – Apple had to issue a similar mea culpa for Mobile Me back around this time in 2008. The big difference is that instead of apologizing to a small subset of customers, Apple has had to address all iOS 6 users. So this time it has to come from the CEO. (But don't think for a minute Steve didn't help pen the last one.)
They've been here, with a mouthful of crow, before. Large-scale, cloud-based services are not in Apple's DNA, so every time they try it seems to hurt the first time around.
Definitely not unprecedented.
I keep thinking it mirrors the introduction of Final Cut Pro X, in that a fundamentally broken product was dropped, without warning, on a group of users who relied on it heavily. Meanwhile, FCP 7 was yanked from the market at the exact same time - again, without warning - meaning (very) established users couldn't continue to rely on a very good system until the "improved" system was actually improved.
I remember seeing an extraordinary amount of dismissiveness on this very board from people with no media or post experience who were sneeringly characterizing editors and post-producers as neo-luddites who simply didn't understand technology (!) and who didn't want to change. The idea that Apple could have taken a big step backwards and tripped while doing so seemed like anathema. "Clearly" the fault must be with the users. "You just have to adapt to what MUST be good for you" came the refrain.
From the perspective of people who actually knew what they were doing, this came as insult added to injury. All the cloying remarks about Apple "simply moving the cheese (to a better spot!)" missed the real point, which is that Apple had made the cheese inedible then thrown it off a cliff. And they'd done so without warning, leaving a lot of heavy investments in equipment, media, and skills in the lurch.
Because it all this played out in a specialized niche, most people ignored it. Apple's chief competitors (Avid and Adobe) jumped on it, and life moved on - with Apple's once-sterling reputation in the professional post-production market forever dimmed.
Now that the same pattern is playing out with Maps. The big differences are (a) Maps are insanely mainstream - everybody notices this (b) Maps - unlike video editing - are absolutely central to mobile computing in general and (c) Mobile computing is clearly the future of not just Apple, but computing in general. So now there's a replay of the FCP X blowback, but this time, it's headline news worldwide. And the obvious response (switch to another system) isn't one Apple can afford having this many people make.
I have no idea what prompted this fiasco. Much of it may be external to Apple (e.g. a Google deal they couldn't live with). But judging from the reckless and completely unnecessary way they botched the FCP 7-X transition, I suspect something unique to Apple's culture is on display here.
It isn't pretty. But judging from the letter, Tim Cook seems to get it. They really Really REALLY need to get Maps right, and I really hope they do. The iPhone5 is beautiful, but I'm holding onto my 4S and its access to Google.
I keep thinking it mirrors the introduction of Final Cut Pro X, in that a fundamentally broken product was dropped, without warning, on a group of users who relied on it heavily. Meanwhile, FCP 7 was yanked from the market at the exact same time - again, without warning - meaning (very) established users couldn't continue to rely on a very good system until the "improved" system was actually improved.
I remember seeing an extraordinary amount of dismissiveness on this very board from people with no media or post experience who were sneeringly characterizing editors and post-producers as neo-luddites who simply didn't understand technology (!) and who didn't want to change. The idea that Apple could have taken a big step backwards and tripped while doing so seemed like anathema. "Clearly" the fault must be with the users. "You just have to adapt to what MUST be good for you" came the refrain.
From the perspective of people who actually knew what they were doing, this came as insult added to injury. All the cloying remarks about Apple "simply moving the cheese (to a better spot!)" missed the real point, which is that Apple had made the cheese inedible then thrown it off a cliff. And they'd done so without warning, leaving a lot of heavy investments in equipment, media, and skills in the lurch.
Because it all this played out in a specialized niche, most people ignored it. Apple's chief competitors (Avid and Adobe) jumped on it, and life moved on - with Apple's once-sterling reputation in the professional post-production market forever dimmed.
Now that the same pattern is playing out with Maps. The big differences are (a) Maps are insanely mainstream - everybody notices this (b) Maps - unlike video editing - are absolutely central to mobile computing in general and (c) Mobile computing is clearly the future of not just Apple, but computing in general. So now there's a replay of the FCP X blowback, but this time, it's headline news worldwide. And the obvious response (switch to another system) isn't one Apple can afford having this many people make.
I have no idea what prompted this fiasco. Much of it may be external to Apple (e.g. a Google deal they couldn't live with). But judging from the reckless and completely unnecessary way they botched the FCP 7-X transition, I suspect something unique to Apple's culture is on display here.
It isn't pretty. But judging from the letter, Tim Cook seems to get it. They really Really REALLY need to get Maps right, and I really hope they do. The iPhone5 is beautiful, but I'm holding onto my 4S and its access to Google.
Similar issue with cell reception ... I still somewhat believe this is all purposeful. Their cult following wants them to succeed, and they will want to support them - so when a crappy product turns into gold (future release) they will cheer and all will forget --- except everyone's talking about Apple now, and Maps. Is all publicity good publicity? It's possible with the right factors at play IMHO.
Okay, Maps are bad, but this type of overreaction is from people who secretly think that Apple is doomed now that Jobs is gone.
>The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels unprecedented.
This is a gross overreaction and just a few examples from the comments below indicate Apple not only did this with earlier computing products, but did with the original iPhone, the antennae issue a while back. Netflix did too with their Quickster debacle.
Calm down. Maps is bad, but it will be fixed. Apple is still the most valuable company in the world. The iPhone 5 is still in the top 95% of devices on the market. Things will be okay.
>The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels unprecedented.
This is a gross overreaction and just a few examples from the comments below indicate Apple not only did this with earlier computing products, but did with the original iPhone, the antennae issue a while back. Netflix did too with their Quickster debacle.
Calm down. Maps is bad, but it will be fixed. Apple is still the most valuable company in the world. The iPhone 5 is still in the top 95% of devices on the market. Things will be okay.
[deleted]
Apple has used the P.T. Barnum strategy of even bad press is beneficial.
By releasing a crap version of Maps:
1. Everyone now knows that Apple has their own version of Maps.
2. The story has become, "Look how hard Apple is working to make it better."
One can see this in the Tech press already, e.g. Apple posting jobs, hiring ex-Googler's and Cooke's letter have supplanted criticism.
It is inevitable that the next release of maps will be covered with great fanfare and that the bulk of the stories will praise Apple for how much improvement they have made. Cooke's sincerity and the key hiring strategy will be mentioned. In other words, no matter how far behind their competition the next release of maps is, the standard narrative will reflect positively on Apple.
All of this is based on the fact that the quality of Maps is not a critical component of the decision tree within the market segment which buys iOS devices. Yes, there is perhaps a meaningful minority of people for whom Maps is a deal breaker when it comes to an iPhone. The same doesn't hold true when it comes to iPads or iPods. "Nobody" buys an iPod as a GPS [scare quotes because there is someone hacker who has].
By releasing a crap version of Maps:
1. Everyone now knows that Apple has their own version of Maps.
2. The story has become, "Look how hard Apple is working to make it better."
One can see this in the Tech press already, e.g. Apple posting jobs, hiring ex-Googler's and Cooke's letter have supplanted criticism.
It is inevitable that the next release of maps will be covered with great fanfare and that the bulk of the stories will praise Apple for how much improvement they have made. Cooke's sincerity and the key hiring strategy will be mentioned. In other words, no matter how far behind their competition the next release of maps is, the standard narrative will reflect positively on Apple.
All of this is based on the fact that the quality of Maps is not a critical component of the decision tree within the market segment which buys iOS devices. Yes, there is perhaps a meaningful minority of people for whom Maps is a deal breaker when it comes to an iPhone. The same doesn't hold true when it comes to iPads or iPods. "Nobody" buys an iPod as a GPS [scare quotes because there is someone hacker who has].
[deleted]
Almost certainly, the problem is their war on Android. Google wouldn't hestitate to use Maps as leverage.
Unprecedented for Apple maybe. Look Apple never admits to any bugs or issues until it (the issue) gets main stream press. Then fall over themselves offering explanations and feel good messages like "We make great products for you!". Remember Antenna Gate? Or Mobile Me? This letter is basically the same thing.
There's a LONG list of bugs/issues in OSX and IOS that have been around for years. Some of these issues have huge threads on Apple's own forums. They might get around to fixing them. But the reason some of these haven't been fixed is lack of press. Which is sad really.
Look, I've been an Apple fan-boy from way back (longer than many of you have been alive). And I am getting damn tired of Apple's "perfect world". I bet they released Apple Maps really not expecting any complaints. Really. Apple is probably shocked at the reaction.
But I also bet that the majority of people using IOS6 don't have problems with Maps.
There's a LONG list of bugs/issues in OSX and IOS that have been around for years. Some of these issues have huge threads on Apple's own forums. They might get around to fixing them. But the reason some of these haven't been fixed is lack of press. Which is sad really.
Look, I've been an Apple fan-boy from way back (longer than many of you have been alive). And I am getting damn tired of Apple's "perfect world". I bet they released Apple Maps really not expecting any complaints. Really. Apple is probably shocked at the reaction.
But I also bet that the majority of people using IOS6 don't have problems with Maps.
Feels a bit similar to after the iPhone launch, when they cut the price a bit and gave the early adopters a $100 credit.
Again, when had a hardware company ever done such a thing?
Again, when had a hardware company ever done such a thing?
At Orange, we strive to make world-class products that deliver the best experience possible to our customers. Except when we feel that someone else is doing it better in which case we strive to eliminate the obviously superior product from our walled garden.
With the launch of our shitty Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment. We are sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers but we are doing everything we can to make shitty Maps better, except to provide you what you want right now, a working map.
We launched shitty Maps initially with the first version of Orange. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better shitty Maps including features such as really bad directions, never understands your voice integration, Flyover the wrong location and vector-based maps.
In order to do this, we had to create a new version of shitty Maps from the ground up, and though its not ready for prime time we are so worried about our competition that we dumped them prematurely from our walled garden and forced this abomination on you.
There are already more than 100 million Orange devices using the new shitty Maps, with more and more joining us every day. And you know that this is because we reduced your choice to our inferior product, which is what we have the right to do since we own your phone and you don't.
In just over a week, Orange users with the new shitty Maps have already searched for nearly half a billion locations and some actually did find a few locations. The more our customers use our Maps the sooner we will make another billion dollars and we greatly appreciate the fact you have no real choice now that you have our phone in your pocket.
While we’re improving shitty Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the Orange Store, but good luck finding them as we also created a new nightmare in our Apps store that makes replacing our shitty apps more difficult than ever. We know that the huge majority of Orange users won't have a clue as to what we mean by bookmarking, and of course that is just fine with us. Just use our maps anyway, just like we planned.
Everything we do at Orange is aimed at making our products the only product you use. We know that you expect that from us, and we will keep working non-stop until EVERYONE in our walled garden is tired of the BS and gets an Android.
With the launch of our shitty Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment. We are sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers but we are doing everything we can to make shitty Maps better, except to provide you what you want right now, a working map.
We launched shitty Maps initially with the first version of Orange. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better shitty Maps including features such as really bad directions, never understands your voice integration, Flyover the wrong location and vector-based maps.
In order to do this, we had to create a new version of shitty Maps from the ground up, and though its not ready for prime time we are so worried about our competition that we dumped them prematurely from our walled garden and forced this abomination on you.
There are already more than 100 million Orange devices using the new shitty Maps, with more and more joining us every day. And you know that this is because we reduced your choice to our inferior product, which is what we have the right to do since we own your phone and you don't.
In just over a week, Orange users with the new shitty Maps have already searched for nearly half a billion locations and some actually did find a few locations. The more our customers use our Maps the sooner we will make another billion dollars and we greatly appreciate the fact you have no real choice now that you have our phone in your pocket.
While we’re improving shitty Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the Orange Store, but good luck finding them as we also created a new nightmare in our Apps store that makes replacing our shitty apps more difficult than ever. We know that the huge majority of Orange users won't have a clue as to what we mean by bookmarking, and of course that is just fine with us. Just use our maps anyway, just like we planned.
Everything we do at Orange is aimed at making our products the only product you use. We know that you expect that from us, and we will keep working non-stop until EVERYONE in our walled garden is tired of the BS and gets an Android.
I don't see how your comment contributes to any meaningful discussion of this topic. I truly don't.
Satire is a contribution. Where those in power fail the truth test, satire has served since the dawn of print, to cast the light of truth on the half truths of the powerful.
This isn't satire. All you did was replace Apple with Orange and take a cynical stance on what they said.
Except satire is supposed to be funny. Your post isn't.
Please do not post subjective opinions stated as fact. Personally I found it amusing. The upvote/downvote system will effectively aggregate these subjective opinions and display the comment appropriately.
Your post, however, just comes across to me as trollish.
Your post, however, just comes across to me as trollish.
Pretty ironic that I reached 500 karma with the post that you call "trollish". Now I can downvote both the original shitty satire and your silly accusations!
(Just kidding, of course.)
(Just kidding, of course.)
You must own an orange phone with shitty maps! lol...
changing apple to orange and putting shitty in front of the word maps isn't satire. it's find/replace in notepad.
> While we’re improving shitty Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the Orange Store, but good luck finding them
Maybe you missed the part where they linked to an entire section of the store titled Map Apps.
Maybe you missed the part where they linked to an entire section of the store titled Map Apps.
for a moment I thought http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_%28telecommunications
Look again! Your HN is now reddit.
That was pretty good. Well played.
I think what they say about "Internet time" and the length of people's memories might be correct. This is, in fact, very in keeping with Apple's character. Apple doesn't often screw up, but when they do, they will definitely own up to it. (Keeping in mind that your buddy Joe or some high-priced analyst claiming that Apple screwed up is not the same thing as them actually screwing up...)
See, for example, four years ago when they issued an apology and a free account extension for the launch of MobileMe: http://www.macworld.com/article/1134530/mobileme.html
See, for example, four years ago when they issued an apology and a free account extension for the launch of MobileMe: http://www.macworld.com/article/1134530/mobileme.html
Apple has built a reputation of only releasing products that were absolutely completed and quality controlled. From my understanding, the company ethos has been that any defect, no matter how small, would result in the product being delayed.
Speaking from my own perspective, admission or not, I think it's the break in that expectation that has me disappointed.
Speaking from my own perspective, admission or not, I think it's the break in that expectation that has me disappointed.
I don't know how to respond to this other than "lol".
Apple often releases products that many consumers would consider "incomplete". The only difference is that Apple never admitted to being wrong ever. Their branding depends on being seen as shiny software company-upon-a-hill. That's the only difference here, they admitted to making a bad decision. Their little spat with google just made this an unusually bad one; one that they couldn't paper over.
Apple often releases products that many consumers would consider "incomplete". The only difference is that Apple never admitted to being wrong ever. Their branding depends on being seen as shiny software company-upon-a-hill. That's the only difference here, they admitted to making a bad decision. Their little spat with google just made this an unusually bad one; one that they couldn't paper over.
You will notice that the name at the bottom of this Apple letter is different than the name that appeared at the bottom of previous Apple letters. This change may have some connection to their new willingness to admit having made a mistake.
That's the key, when you said "many" consumers would consider past products incomplete: it's quite subjective whether to call a product complete or incomplete. They would never admit to wrongdoing because there'd always be some way for them to argue otherwise.
As I mention in my other follow-up comment here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4586212, the difference in this case is that the product is objectively incomplete: the data itself is measurably bad.
As I mention in my other follow-up comment here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4586212, the difference in this case is that the product is objectively incomplete: the data itself is measurably bad.
That's the key, when you said "many" consumers
No, when I said "many" I was trying to avoid this conversation right here. We know software is never done, its not a thing you can finish, you can only stop. I tried to nip this in the bud because don't we all know that I could sit here and use the same exact handwaving to justify the status of the new maps app?
No, when I said "many" I was trying to avoid this conversation right here. We know software is never done, its not a thing you can finish, you can only stop. I tried to nip this in the bud because don't we all know that I could sit here and use the same exact handwaving to justify the status of the new maps app?
As jballanc pointed out, they did admit bad decisions, as with MobileMe: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4586814
Right. It took them a lot longer to reluctantly admit anything went wrong in antennagate, and their apology lacked conviction.
Maybe from a hardware point of view, but not from a software point of view. Case in point, iTunes is one of the worst pieces of software I've ever had to use. They could have made it so much easier to add music, etc, but it is probably the worst piece of software that I'm FORCED to use.
As witnessed by the other comment below yours, I have heard people refer to iTunes as a good piece of software in the past. (I am, incidentally, not one of those. I hate iTunes with a passion). The point being, this is a subjective measure.
Does a bad UI make software like iTunes "incomplete"? Again, it depends on your perspective. Missing, or bad data, as is the case in this instance, seems to be a bit less contentious, as can be seen in the quasi-unanimous anger towards the new maps.
Does a bad UI make software like iTunes "incomplete"? Again, it depends on your perspective. Missing, or bad data, as is the case in this instance, seems to be a bit less contentious, as can be seen in the quasi-unanimous anger towards the new maps.
I'm at a loss, how could it be easier to add music? From files, it is drag and drop, from CD's, it is one click "Import".
In order to add an mp3 onto my iPhone I need to: start up iTunes and wait for it to load; plug in my iPhone to my iMac; find the song and drag and drop it into iTunes; click on Sync, and then wait for Sync to finish everything. If I haven't synced my iPhone in a while, then it could take 10+ minutes, since it has to backup, copy new Applications, etc.
What it should be is: plug my iPhone into my Mac; my iPhone should show up in Finder or on the Desktop; Find my mp3 and drag and drop it onto my iPhone icon; unplug my iPhone. I have no idea why I need to interact with iTunes at all.
What it should be is: plug my iPhone into my Mac; my iPhone should show up in Finder or on the Desktop; Find my mp3 and drag and drop it onto my iPhone icon; unplug my iPhone. I have no idea why I need to interact with iTunes at all.
>They could have made it so much easier to add music, etc
What? You either drag and drop, or purchase with one click from the store. It could not possibly be easier.
What? You either drag and drop, or purchase with one click from the store. It could not possibly be easier.
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OS X 10.0.
I don't think I realized what an actual issue this is... Cook isn't speaking to people who have been following this debacle since the beta, he's speaking to people who think the only way to get location info is through the "maps" button on their phone.
Let's hope, for the sake of those people at least, Apple can get some better data.
Let's hope, for the sake of those people at least, Apple can get some better data.
From a purely competitive standpoint, this is why Google should be releasing their Google Maps app immediately, and if Apple drags their feet, they should launch a lawsuit to force them to do so.
First off, it would probably be a really good PR move for Google.
Second, if Apple dragged their feet in terms of approval and Google sued them, it might force some changed in terms of how anti-competitively the App store behaves. I could totally see the Justice Dept or FTC stepping in the way they did with Microsoft.
Lastly, if Google added their maps app, it would immediately supplant the Apple app, and a lot less people would use Apple Maps. This would give Apple less data to make their maps better, and keep them at a competitive disadvantage for years.
First off, it would probably be a really good PR move for Google.
Second, if Apple dragged their feet in terms of approval and Google sued them, it might force some changed in terms of how anti-competitively the App store behaves. I could totally see the Justice Dept or FTC stepping in the way they did with Microsoft.
Lastly, if Google added their maps app, it would immediately supplant the Apple app, and a lot less people would use Apple Maps. This would give Apple less data to make their maps better, and keep them at a competitive disadvantage for years.
I think the best strategic move for Google is to wait. They should allow the Maps issue to continue to tarnish the iPhone 5 launch for another month or two, then release their own Maps app that will capture the marketshare of iPhone power users (the people Apple actually needs who would send in problem reports). This would let the dark cloud remain over the iPhone 5 long enough to tarnish it in most peoples' minds, but not long enough to let Apple to get any substantial data improvements from it.
I disagree. Android is a means to an end- getting control over the user's mobile experience, and extracting data from that. While the obvious preference is for everyone to be using Android, that will never happen. So an iOS Maps app will give Google advertising, as well as location tracking, etc. etc.
Very valuable.
Very valuable.
Actually, I now agree with this. Like I said below, they might be delaying it to hurt iPhone 5 sales, as you mentioned. This probably makes more sense from a competitive standpoint, and then using the time to build an even better app (with 3D according to the article) and then releasing it in January after the damage has been done. I guess there's only a small chance Apple will be able to make the Maps significantly better in 3 months.
I disagree.
PR move wise, they've already won the PR battle. Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google (and now Android) has a superior maps offering. By offering a Google Maps app on the iPhone, it just gives customers one reason less to stick with Android.
It will be hard for Google to prove the anti-competitiveness of the App store. It would be quite interesting though - Android has the ability to use different App stores, while Apple certainly does not. It sounds unfair, but I wonder if a court feels the same way.
Pretty sure Apple will be at a disadvantage for years regardless. They've never been a data company as it is, and there's no reason to believe that they could suddenly go out and put together their own maps like Google has done. Better maps does not necessarily equate to having more usage data either.
PR move wise, they've already won the PR battle. Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google (and now Android) has a superior maps offering. By offering a Google Maps app on the iPhone, it just gives customers one reason less to stick with Android.
It will be hard for Google to prove the anti-competitiveness of the App store. It would be quite interesting though - Android has the ability to use different App stores, while Apple certainly does not. It sounds unfair, but I wonder if a court feels the same way.
Pretty sure Apple will be at a disadvantage for years regardless. They've never been a data company as it is, and there's no reason to believe that they could suddenly go out and put together their own maps like Google has done. Better maps does not necessarily equate to having more usage data either.
They've won the current PR battle, but if they build a Google Maps for iOS, they will win the next PR battle.
If Apple is reluctant to approve a Google Maps app, and Google claims that they have the app ready and waiting but Apple won't approve it, customers will be pissed. This would put even more pressure on Apple.
Google could absolutely prove anti-competitiveness of the App store, by simply releasing the app that existed on iOS5. If it's the exact same app, with no new features, Google could ask the question why it was good enough for iOS5, but not iOS6. If Apple is restricting its availability simply because Apple has their own maps app, it could definitely be shown as being anti-competitive, and if the DOJ or FTC started to investigate this, Apple would be in heaps of trouble. Apple would be stupid to risk getting a decision forced down their throats by the government, a la Microsoft.
The one thing that Google may be doing is waiting until after Thanksgiving or Christmas in order to release their new App. They might be letting the bad press over Maps could hurt sales of iPhone 5, and then releasing an app after January.
If Apple is reluctant to approve a Google Maps app, and Google claims that they have the app ready and waiting but Apple won't approve it, customers will be pissed. This would put even more pressure on Apple.
Google could absolutely prove anti-competitiveness of the App store, by simply releasing the app that existed on iOS5. If it's the exact same app, with no new features, Google could ask the question why it was good enough for iOS5, but not iOS6. If Apple is restricting its availability simply because Apple has their own maps app, it could definitely be shown as being anti-competitive, and if the DOJ or FTC started to investigate this, Apple would be in heaps of trouble. Apple would be stupid to risk getting a decision forced down their throats by the government, a la Microsoft.
The one thing that Google may be doing is waiting until after Thanksgiving or Christmas in order to release their new App. They might be letting the bad press over Maps could hurt sales of iPhone 5, and then releasing an app after January.
"Google could absolutely prove anti-competitiveness of the App store, by simply releasing the app that existed on iOS5"
I was under the impression that Apple was the one that wrote that app, and they just sourced all the map data from Google.
I was under the impression that Apple was the one that wrote that app, and they just sourced all the map data from Google.
I guess I'm just failing to see what Google has to gain, and I feel that they have more to lose.
Right now they have gained a key competitive advantage in the minds of consumers. Even iPhone fanboys will have a hard time arguing that Google does not have a better maps app.
What will they have to gain by proving the App store anticompetitive? Google will not make any sort of money from the app anyways.
By releasing a Maps app for iPhone, Google will basically giving away for free what Apple had been (likely) paying them for before. How does that make sense?
Right now they have gained a key competitive advantage in the minds of consumers. Even iPhone fanboys will have a hard time arguing that Google does not have a better maps app.
What will they have to gain by proving the App store anticompetitive? Google will not make any sort of money from the app anyways.
By releasing a Maps app for iPhone, Google will basically giving away for free what Apple had been (likely) paying them for before. How does that make sense?
Nobody knows if apple is paying them and it all seems like it was free for Apple (but would have been renegotiated in 2013). Google makes money from users using google maps, not by apple paying google to use google maps.
http://www.quora.com/How-much-does-Apple-pay-Google-to-use-t...
http://www.quora.com/How-much-does-Apple-pay-Google-to-use-t...
> Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has
> considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google
> (and now Android) has a superior maps offering.
> They've never been a data company as it is
I buy that the maps is a feature of iOS6, but remember that iOS5 doesn't run on the iPhone 5 (AFAIK). This means that the maps feature becomes part of the purchasing decision.
Would love to see the number of iPhone users in the markets where the new maps app is as good or better. I would go further and say this doesn't matter. A map application is only useful if it works all the time, and if you have the confidence that it will always work.
They had not made a phone before, but they were still a consumer hardware company. I don't think its fair to say that they can now just become a legitimate mapping company. NAVTEQ, TomTom, Google, etc, have spent hundred of thousands of man hours developing those expertise.
Would love to see the number of iPhone users in the markets where the new maps app is as good or better. I would go further and say this doesn't matter. A map application is only useful if it works all the time, and if you have the confidence that it will always work.
They had not made a phone before, but they were still a consumer hardware company. I don't think its fair to say that they can now just become a legitimate mapping company. NAVTEQ, TomTom, Google, etc, have spent hundred of thousands of man hours developing those expertise.
There's a difference between "They're not going to just walk in" before they've tried and "They're not going to just walk in" after they've tried and slipped on a banana peel. One is a prediction, the other is a statement of fact.
Even if some iPhone 5 buyers are annoyed it will be a couple of years before most of them get another phone. By that time this issue will probably be resolved. The marketing hit is to people who upgraded older devices like the 3GS. These users could be looking to buy a new phone in the next six months and Android just became slightly more attractive.
First, for a lot of countries, we're still in the return period for the iPhone 5. Second, even if they couldn't return it and are stuck with a contract, dissatisfied iPhone 5 owners can still sell their almost brand new phone and get something else (and that wouldn't be good for the iPhone 5 or iOS in the long run).
People really love their iPhones. I find is barely believable that a large number of people will change that based on maps alone.
I see this a few times on here about DOJ or FTC stepping on to Apple like Microsoft, and I think it's pretty off base.
In order for that to happen a few things need to occur. First, the government needs to prove that Apple has a monopoly. Here are some numbers from NPD on smartphone marketshare domestically: https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/pr...
Apple: 31 percent Samsung: 24 percent HTC: 15 percent Motorola: 12 percent LG: 6 percent
So right there, it's a tough case to make that Apple has a dominant market monopoly as compared to Microsoft in 1998.
Here's a CNET article I found quickly from 1999, one year-ish after the DOJ brought their case: http://news.cnet.com/Windows-95-remains-most-popular-operati...
Windows 95 57.4 Windows 98 17.2 Windows NT 11 Mac OS 5 DOS 3.8 Linux 2.1 Windows 3.11 1.1 Unix .8 OS/2 .5 Others 1
So at that time Windows accounted for roughly: 87% of the market! And then beyond the government determining they had a monopoly, they had to show that Microsoft was abusing it's monopoly in anticompetitive ways. They concluded they were through agreements with OEMs and others to keep other software off the machines. Basically OEMs would install Windows and IE, and not make deals to install Netscape or other software. And part of that decision also had to do with the fact that in 1998-2000 as broadband was nascent in much of the country, getting new software wasn't exactly as easy as a 5 minute or less download.
And even still there are legitimate criticisms of the US DOJ case against Microsoft.
Finally though, it doesn't seem to me that this could be done by DOJ/FTC at all. Apple doesn't have a market monopoly. Since it is a device that they produce hardware and software for, and have from the beginning asserted full control over the app store, and other market alternatives (often cheaper) readily exist, I wouldn't expect any action.
In order for that to happen a few things need to occur. First, the government needs to prove that Apple has a monopoly. Here are some numbers from NPD on smartphone marketshare domestically: https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/pr...
Apple: 31 percent Samsung: 24 percent HTC: 15 percent Motorola: 12 percent LG: 6 percent
So right there, it's a tough case to make that Apple has a dominant market monopoly as compared to Microsoft in 1998.
Here's a CNET article I found quickly from 1999, one year-ish after the DOJ brought their case: http://news.cnet.com/Windows-95-remains-most-popular-operati...
Windows 95 57.4 Windows 98 17.2 Windows NT 11 Mac OS 5 DOS 3.8 Linux 2.1 Windows 3.11 1.1 Unix .8 OS/2 .5 Others 1
So at that time Windows accounted for roughly: 87% of the market! And then beyond the government determining they had a monopoly, they had to show that Microsoft was abusing it's monopoly in anticompetitive ways. They concluded they were through agreements with OEMs and others to keep other software off the machines. Basically OEMs would install Windows and IE, and not make deals to install Netscape or other software. And part of that decision also had to do with the fact that in 1998-2000 as broadband was nascent in much of the country, getting new software wasn't exactly as easy as a 5 minute or less download.
And even still there are legitimate criticisms of the US DOJ case against Microsoft.
Finally though, it doesn't seem to me that this could be done by DOJ/FTC at all. Apple doesn't have a market monopoly. Since it is a device that they produce hardware and software for, and have from the beginning asserted full control over the app store, and other market alternatives (often cheaper) readily exist, I wouldn't expect any action.
I didn't make a comment on previous behavior of Apple, or whether or not Apple has a monopoly. I was saying that Google could force Apple's hand in terms of how they behave in approving or rejecting apps, if Apple acts in an anti-competitive way with respect to a Google Maps app. If Apple doesn't play it right, it could draw the ire of the DoJ or FTC, which they definitely do not want.
If they don't allow a Google Maps app on the iPhone App Store, or if they drag their heels in approving the app, especially given all the outrage from the customers, I believe this is clearly anti-competitive behavior.
Once Google has one available, if Apple doesn't readily approve it, I think a very, very strong case could be made that they are holding back Google's app in order to help their App gain traction. Since only Apple has the power to approve or reject apps from the App Store, if that isn't the definition of anti-competitive, I don't know what is.
If they don't allow a Google Maps app on the iPhone App Store, or if they drag their heels in approving the app, especially given all the outrage from the customers, I believe this is clearly anti-competitive behavior.
Once Google has one available, if Apple doesn't readily approve it, I think a very, very strong case could be made that they are holding back Google's app in order to help their App gain traction. Since only Apple has the power to approve or reject apps from the App Store, if that isn't the definition of anti-competitive, I don't know what is.
Right - but my point is that simple anti-competitive behavior is not necessarily running afoul here.
IT would be anti-competitive, but for the FTC to be involved the case needs to include monopoly abuse or stopping hard-driving competition. Since Google is available through Android and other competitors, and is not blocked from the web-browser, I don't think a legal case can be made. But would love opinions as to why that might not be the case.
EDIT: At least in the United States, perhaps in other jurisdictions it could be an issue?
IT would be anti-competitive, but for the FTC to be involved the case needs to include monopoly abuse or stopping hard-driving competition. Since Google is available through Android and other competitors, and is not blocked from the web-browser, I don't think a legal case can be made. But would love opinions as to why that might not be the case.
EDIT: At least in the United States, perhaps in other jurisdictions it could be an issue?
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There's a more important gamble in play at the moment:
Maps are not Siri, they're not a shiny aluminum cover or impressively slim industrial design: they are one of the core features that people own smartphones for. Would you really get a smartphone that had totally broken maps?
So there's a race: how much can Google steal Apple's thunder before Apple can build a reasonably competitive maps application? I suspect Google is considering how much permanent damage they can score to Apple's marketshare through this debacle.
Maps are not Siri, they're not a shiny aluminum cover or impressively slim industrial design: they are one of the core features that people own smartphones for. Would you really get a smartphone that had totally broken maps?
So there's a race: how much can Google steal Apple's thunder before Apple can build a reasonably competitive maps application? I suspect Google is considering how much permanent damage they can score to Apple's marketshare through this debacle.
As far as I'm concerned, apology accepted. [ assuming this is an apology of course ]
An apology should never have to be inferred, with that said expecting a full out apology from apple is asking a lot, not that it isn't warranted.
No need to infer. From the letter:
"We are extremely sorry"
"We are extremely sorry"
"We are extremely sorry for the frustration this has caused", that being them falling short on there standards.
So basically they are sad that there customers don't like the product Apple knew was under par, instead of being sorry for knowing releasing an under par product.
"We are sorry you don't like the product we knew was bad but released anyways"
A band-aid on bad situation made from some high level bad choices. Though for all we know this could be a 100% calculated move (minus the maps icon), but at the end of they day they are still putting there customers below something else(i will not speculate on what there reasoning is).
So basically they are sad that there customers don't like the product Apple knew was under par, instead of being sorry for knowing releasing an under par product.
"We are sorry you don't like the product we knew was bad but released anyways"
A band-aid on bad situation made from some high level bad choices. Though for all we know this could be a 100% calculated move (minus the maps icon), but at the end of they day they are still putting there customers below something else(i will not speculate on what there reasoning is).
Sorry for themselves?
“With the launch of our new Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment. We are extremely sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers and we are doing everything we can to make Maps better.”
That’s a proper apology. No dodging, no sidestepping, no shifting of the blame. We screwed up, we are sorry for the problems that caused, we are doing everything we can to fix this.
That’s a proper apology. No dodging, no sidestepping, no shifting of the blame. We screwed up, we are sorry for the problems that caused, we are doing everything we can to fix this.
You can only apologize for a mistake, if you think Apple made a mistake then you dont know Apple very well.
If you consider this a mistake(which it is), you must consider it a very highly calculated one. They knew what they were doing, apologizing for something they knew would happen is very disingenuous.
If you consider this a mistake(which it is), you must consider it a very highly calculated one. They knew what they were doing, apologizing for something they knew would happen is very disingenuous.
It's very well written, but I don't doubt that the entire message came directly from the PR department. Anyway, the proof is in the pudding, as they say, so let's see what they do.
Uhm, sure. I’m not sure what your point is, though. Of course Tim Cook has people to help him write that. Of course he didn’t just walk into his office, wrote this and sent it off without consulting anyone. Do you think the PR department is incapable of writing apologies?
tl;dr Glad they apologised, hope they put their money where their mouth is because I love the idea of an Apple-made maps application.
> While we’re improving Maps, you can try alternatives by
> downloading map apps from the App Store like Bing, MapQuest
> and Waze, or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their
> websites and creating an icon on your home screen to their
> web app.
I was quite surprised they listed competitors. Is this an unusual move or a normal/expected thing to do in a case like this?
I was quite surprised they listed competitors. Is this an unusual move or a normal/expected thing to do in a case like this?
This is pathetic. I'm surprised no one has hit them up with a false advertising claim over their phone not providing what they wanted (directions, in many cases transit directions)
I've not heard a single person using apple maps say "this is good", every single person states its a downgrade. Apple need to get their act together and realize what they've done is lost a major set of consumer confidence here and should do everything in their power to set the situation right.
I for one was about to do the switch from Android to iphone with the iphone 5 coming out. After seeing apple maps, i've decided that i'll probably just buy the new Nexus when it comes out. Maps are the most important app on my phone besides the dialer and text messaging...not having maps thats anything less than what i've got today is simply not something i'm willing to negotiate.
Google will and should do nothing, this is all completely in their favor at this point. IOS might just have taken its first fatal blow.
I've not heard a single person using apple maps say "this is good", every single person states its a downgrade. Apple need to get their act together and realize what they've done is lost a major set of consumer confidence here and should do everything in their power to set the situation right.
I for one was about to do the switch from Android to iphone with the iphone 5 coming out. After seeing apple maps, i've decided that i'll probably just buy the new Nexus when it comes out. Maps are the most important app on my phone besides the dialer and text messaging...not having maps thats anything less than what i've got today is simply not something i'm willing to negotiate.
Google will and should do nothing, this is all completely in their favor at this point. IOS might just have taken its first fatal blow.
For what it is worth, IOS maps has more recent satellite images and more recent road maps from the centre of the city where I live than maps.google.com (the data from maps.google.com will happily show a continuous road that, nowadays, is only an entry to a parking garage)
The IOS 5 app has what looks like the same satellite data as maps.google.com, but even older road topology (it lacks the detour you need to not end up in that garage)
So, from the (tiny) part I checked, IOS 6 has better maps than IOS 5. It may be worse on average, but how would a user objectively evaluate a map app that covers the world?
The IOS 5 app has what looks like the same satellite data as maps.google.com, but even older road topology (it lacks the detour you need to not end up in that garage)
So, from the (tiny) part I checked, IOS 6 has better maps than IOS 5. It may be worse on average, but how would a user objectively evaluate a map app that covers the world?
I think the lack of transit directions, poor blending of map images (http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/505cae6969bedd427a0...) and the overall lack of detail is a massive reason to consider it a downgrade.
If you're honestly happier with this product then thats cool, but i'm not.
If you're honestly happier with this product then thats cool, but i'm not.
Happier? No. For my uses, both apps are adequate. I do not use maps apps often, and I if do, it is the old-fashioned way: look at the map before I leave, possibly make a screen dump to make sure I'll have some map avaiable on the road, and use that screen dump if necessary to get where I need to be. I will, at some time, miss street view, though.
Reading discussions, I also learnt and verified that iOS 6 location search is lousy (I think it doesn't know enough about statitics, or doesn't have enough statistical data (yet?). If one searches for, e.g. 'central station', it will happily return hits such as 'Starbucks central station' or 'the X hotel, central station' in favor of the actual train station. It should know that, when in doubt, it should go for the most often sought for hits)
Reading discussions, I also learnt and verified that iOS 6 location search is lousy (I think it doesn't know enough about statitics, or doesn't have enough statistical data (yet?). If one searches for, e.g. 'central station', it will happily return hits such as 'Starbucks central station' or 'the X hotel, central station' in favor of the actual train station. It should know that, when in doubt, it should go for the most often sought for hits)
Someone was telling me only a couple of days ago about a time when Google Maps guided her to a nonexistent building out in the middle of nowhere next to some farm field in Pennsylvania. That story and some of my own Google Maps Fail experiences wouldn't scare me off of Google Maps since the tool, although sometimes mistaken, is much better than what I used to navigate back in the 90s! Reminds me of Louis C.K. joking about people complaining about not being able to get on WiFi when they're magically sitting in a chair 30,000 feet up in the sky. Apple wanted to build a mapping tool, and they'd probably get complaints from folks on here no matter whether they started with an excellent data source or whether they broke from their tradition and took a gutsy move that might hurt the user experience for a while. :)
Standards are much higher for maps than when Maps was new (just as they are for planes)
You wouldn't want Apple building iPlane this way, right?
You wouldn't want Apple building iPlane this way, right?
I will give you that. My iPhone 4 is actually still on iOS 5 because I've felt hesitant and wanted to hear more feedback before I downloaded the upgrade. But I can honestly say that Google Maps has failed me and others many times, so it'd be interesting to know if the "failure" rates of the two mapping solutions are closer than one might expect, and that people are just posting the Apple ones online because iOS 6 is under more scrutiny at the moment.
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This should be view on the same grounds as the scolding from Jobs to the MobileMe group when it launched.
The alternatives are almost the same as when it launched. Even having those. How many are having real problems or just hating because is the new fad?
The alternatives are almost the same as when it launched. Even having those. How many are having real problems or just hating because is the new fad?
The other day I got my iPhone 5 on the mail, but it wouldn't activate because of a SIM card error. So, I get it the car, look up the closest Verizon store on Apple maps using my old iPhone, and drive there.
I end up at a run down strip mall with no Verizon store in sight. So, I load up Google maps is Safari, and it finds and takes me to an actual Verizon store about 3 miles away.
So yes, people are having actual problems with Apple maps.
I end up at a run down strip mall with no Verizon store in sight. So, I load up Google maps is Safari, and it finds and takes me to an actual Verizon store about 3 miles away.
So yes, people are having actual problems with Apple maps.
This type of stuff happened with Google maps too, but everyone seems to forget that. A year or so ago in Houston I was following Google maps to a theater and ended up in the middle of some suburban neighborhood.
Let's just all remember that the old maps app was not flawless.
Let's just all remember that the old maps app was not flawless.
My main use for my phone is maps.
Using the Google Maps app, this never happened to me in hundreds and hundreds of routes.
Using the ios6 maps app for the first time, to locate a verizon store to go and order my iphone 5, it failed to find a Verizon store I knew was there from previous research. I had to settle for mapping the street and finding the store myself.
I'm not saying the old maps app didn't do that to you, just that the rate of that sort of occurrence, given the evidence I've seen, was much lower in ios5 maps than it is in ios6.
Using the Google Maps app, this never happened to me in hundreds and hundreds of routes.
Using the ios6 maps app for the first time, to locate a verizon store to go and order my iphone 5, it failed to find a Verizon store I knew was there from previous research. I had to settle for mapping the street and finding the store myself.
I'm not saying the old maps app didn't do that to you, just that the rate of that sort of occurrence, given the evidence I've seen, was much lower in ios5 maps than it is in ios6.
I can't compare against iOS 6, because I haven't updated my phone. But I did indeed have Google drop me off in the wrong place several times. I had it send me into the suburbs of Bellevue looking for a Home Depot that didn't exist. Last week it sent me 4 blocks away from the restaurant I was looking for (and told me it was on the wrong side of the road, a common issue with Google Maps).
I still think the new Maps has notable issues from everything I've read, but Google-based Maps was by no means perfect.
I still think the new Maps has notable issues from everything I've read, but Google-based Maps was by no means perfect.
The question was not whether there exist people who are having problems. Rather, it was "how many?"
How much of this is the self-selected sample of those who are irritated enough to complain? Data is not he plural of anecdote.
How much of this is the self-selected sample of those who are irritated enough to complain? Data is not he plural of anecdote.
There very well can be a communications cascading effect as well. How many people complaining right now about iOS 6 Maps are doing so because their friends are. Just as it's cool to be the one with the new iPhone 5, it's also cool to be one of the one's that is late to the appointment because your Maps app told you to take a left instead of a right. You're one of the crowd, and you have something different.
Maybe they should have released Maps as a downloadable app. Maybe they should have waited another year. Maybe they should have... They didn't and outside of transit* there is nothing that is absolutely terrible about the app. It's immature, sure, but it's not the worst thing to happen to the international community since the invention of the atomic weapon.
* If you know any objective-c and are complaining about the lack of transit options, contact your local public transportation authority and develop an app on your own.
Maybe they should have released Maps as a downloadable app. Maybe they should have waited another year. Maybe they should have... They didn't and outside of transit* there is nothing that is absolutely terrible about the app. It's immature, sure, but it's not the worst thing to happen to the international community since the invention of the atomic weapon.
* If you know any objective-c and are complaining about the lack of transit options, contact your local public transportation authority and develop an app on your own.
In London I am used to check the Maps app almost everyday. Problems I had so far:
- I am still waiting to get a correct location when searching by post code. - Searching by the street name sometimes gives me that same street name somewhere in the USA even with the GPS on and map centered on my current location. - I was in Holborn centered on my location, searched for a Nando's, it told me to go up that same street. Turns out it was down, wrong location for that Nando's. - It is much more difficult to differenciate between an underground and a rail station since they look almost the same unlike Google Maps or Bing Maps.
I have been using Google Maps mobile web app and the Bing native app with good results. Still a step backwards because both are much slower than the old Maps.
So yes, people are having real problems.
Small edit: I don't trust the new maps data anymore, that's the biggest problem though.
- I am still waiting to get a correct location when searching by post code. - Searching by the street name sometimes gives me that same street name somewhere in the USA even with the GPS on and map centered on my current location. - I was in Holborn centered on my location, searched for a Nando's, it told me to go up that same street. Turns out it was down, wrong location for that Nando's. - It is much more difficult to differenciate between an underground and a rail station since they look almost the same unlike Google Maps or Bing Maps.
I have been using Google Maps mobile web app and the Bing native app with good results. Still a step backwards because both are much slower than the old Maps.
So yes, people are having real problems.
Small edit: I don't trust the new maps data anymore, that's the biggest problem though.
I live in the United Kingdom, and can say that the new maps are a vast downgrade. Central London seems OK, but outside that there are numerous problems. Off the top of my head areas that I have visited lately have no high detail satellite, satellite photos with clouds or points of interest in the wrong place or not existing at all.
This isn't some hypothetical problem, this is going from maps I use all the time with success, to maps that have become vastly less useful.
This isn't some hypothetical problem, this is going from maps I use all the time with success, to maps that have become vastly less useful.
Well actually regardless of that, Apple is a brand that people trust, and of course there are times that Apple might fail and we criticize because we trust they can do a better job.
To me it's much better that "this product is shit" than "ah it's apple, what do you expect?".
To me it's much better that "this product is shit" than "ah it's apple, what do you expect?".
I don't own an iPhone and never used one, but reading the comments is surprising. I didn't realize how bad the Google Maps app was for iPhone, ie. no turn-by-turn, large ads, et.al. I'm rather shocked that people are complaining so much about this one app in the entire iOS ecosystem and if their lives depended so much on maps that they now refuse to upgrade to iOS6 over it, what were they paying $300+ awful reception (in Los Angeles) per phone for the past several iterations for when you can get an Android w/ turn-by-turn for $50?
Why the current maps is what they are is left to conjecture, but I wonder that if there was a push-back about no turn-by-turn and lower quality maps for the past, idk, 2 years, if Apple would have released their new version of maps.
I never got the impression that Apple listened to or cared too much about what their customers wanted, nor do I think they have the required data abilities to deal with creating a good mapping algorithm. It is quite possible, that with zero to little feedback about no turn-by-turn, that iOS meant far more to the customer than maps. As a passive observer, I am wonder why maps alone is creating so much push-back. Isn't there something special about iOS that moves people to spend their hard-earned money on each next device, often with no convincing improvements, sight-unseen?
Why the current maps is what they are is left to conjecture, but I wonder that if there was a push-back about no turn-by-turn and lower quality maps for the past, idk, 2 years, if Apple would have released their new version of maps.
I never got the impression that Apple listened to or cared too much about what their customers wanted, nor do I think they have the required data abilities to deal with creating a good mapping algorithm. It is quite possible, that with zero to little feedback about no turn-by-turn, that iOS meant far more to the customer than maps. As a passive observer, I am wonder why maps alone is creating so much push-back. Isn't there something special about iOS that moves people to spend their hard-earned money on each next device, often with no convincing improvements, sight-unseen?
Considering that Apple knew that every single aspect of its software will come under scrutiny, Releasing the software in this state indicates callous attitude towards the users.
Do I believe that the software will improve? Yes.. eventually. I know in enterprise software provides like IBM tend to ship hardware with incomplete software and rely in service packs to complete the functions.And if Apple thinks that the same model will work for Consumer products, then they are plain wrong.
Do I believe that the software will improve? Yes.. eventually. I know in enterprise software provides like IBM tend to ship hardware with incomplete software and rely in service packs to complete the functions.And if Apple thinks that the same model will work for Consumer products, then they are plain wrong.
Apple should have released these maps as a free beta in the App store 6 months before iOS 6 was released. People would have gotten their laughs off the bad data out, but Apple could brush them off as "it's just a beta", and they'd have 6 months to fix the most egregious issues, and third parties can get local transit apps ready. Then when iOS 6 replaces the Maps app, even if it's not up the level of Google Maps, it's no longer news, and there's no huge backlash.
Hmmm. Contrite lasted two paragraphs before we got some defiant bragging about just how great Apple is with "There's already 100 million users!!" Just in case we wondered whether an inflated sense of self importance might have helped contribute to this fiasco ;-)
What should they have said? Simply "The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get and we greatly appreciate all of the feedback we have received from you" would have gotten the point across.
What should they have said? Simply "The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get and we greatly appreciate all of the feedback we have received from you" would have gotten the point across.
I wonder if they considered re-licensing with Google for a while and releasing their own 'App' in the App Store to compete. It would get downloaded if only because it had turn by turn and the licensed product did not. Then offering people perhaps some perks for helping improve it, allowed it to live side by side with Google's maps until it was ready to take over.
I think it was a good thing. No, the maps aren't perfect, but neither were gmaps( though way more polished). I can remember a the times where gmaps sent me to some random location. 3D generation is HARD, compare it with the google earth or maps and apple's shows more resolution,less artifacts. 3D was always a cool side feature despite the glitches in other programs and maybe the bad idea was integrating this into the main experience of one of the most used apps. They added some awesome features but in the end people just want maps that work, and eye candy doesn't trump that. They could have taken the typical route trying to brainwash customers with ads or PR releases, the CEO talking about the best product ever w/o believing, instead I admire that they took the rout of "We did a great effort, you didn't like it, sorry and we'll make a bigger effort until you do".
In the end all the effort ,features, and niceties doesn't matter if people simply doesn't like it.
In the end all the effort ,features, and niceties doesn't matter if people simply doesn't like it.
I think this is a case where user testing with Apple employees or a trusted focus group failed. For something like maps, which is inherently focused on widely diverse geographies, road setups, and use cases, having just a few hundred testers (most of them in the Bay Area) won't reveal the problems for 99%+ of iPhone owners who live somewhere else.
I am disappointed a bit at Mr.Cook's recommendations. I think that some of the major problems with Apple Maps exists outside the United States. I am in Canada, and there was a problem from the get go with maps (well documented, I won't go into it).
None of the solutions recommended in this letter are good solutions. Loading a webpage adds how many different steps to getting an address, Bing and Mapquest are not available in the Canadian store, and Waze looks like a cheap gimmick to me(first impressions, it may be a good product).
I don't want to jump on the 'look at Apple falling' bandwagon, but this is a major blow to their reputation. I can appreciate the letter, but don't offer recommendations in your apology that don't work, that makes you look actually incompetent.
None of the solutions recommended in this letter are good solutions. Loading a webpage adds how many different steps to getting an address, Bing and Mapquest are not available in the Canadian store, and Waze looks like a cheap gimmick to me(first impressions, it may be a good product).
I don't want to jump on the 'look at Apple falling' bandwagon, but this is a major blow to their reputation. I can appreciate the letter, but don't offer recommendations in your apology that don't work, that makes you look actually incompetent.
I'm fortunate enough to live in an area with pretty good coverage by the new Maps. I'm also savvy enough to point out errors, as I'm sure most people on HN and other various tech sites are.
I'm not saying that it isn't a big stumble for Apple, because it is, but it's only going to get better (not that it can get much worse for some). Apparently maps are hard. Apple already knows this, and most of us are figuring this out too. But Apple have the resources to make it better, and I am willing to help.
This move was inevitable for Apple; it had to happen sooner or later, and the longer they waited, the bigger the gap they'd have to make up to be "on par" with Google Maps.
And Apple should start with a web interface to the maps. It would make correcting data a lot easier.
I'm not saying that it isn't a big stumble for Apple, because it is, but it's only going to get better (not that it can get much worse for some). Apparently maps are hard. Apple already knows this, and most of us are figuring this out too. But Apple have the resources to make it better, and I am willing to help.
This move was inevitable for Apple; it had to happen sooner or later, and the longer they waited, the bigger the gap they'd have to make up to be "on par" with Google Maps.
And Apple should start with a web interface to the maps. It would make correcting data a lot easier.
I can't believe Apple is essentially saying, "Whoops, my bad, here try some other stuff while we fix out mistake." It is really kind of surreal. But good on them for being candid.
I almost lost it when they said to add Google maps as a web app. That seriously made me groan out loud.
I almost lost it when they said to add Google maps as a web app. That seriously made me groan out loud.
I think we can see it all over iOS 6: Google probably screwed Apple by not renewing their YouTube and Maps contracts.
It's painful for Apple to break free of Google. But if it successfully does this, it will become a true competitor to Google on several fronts. The question is, can their brand survive the backlash? My guess is YES. Their coffers are huge. They will hire and catch up in these areas -- and afterwards probably start to innovate. Most of all, they have some of the greatest designers and branding people there. Google is mostly about engineers.
But right now I think it was Google who stuck it to Apple, not the other way around.
What can I say, the problems under Jobs weren't as obvious. He was able to spin it.
Apple's maps application is just provably worse in terms of maps. Period. There is not much to spin there. It was obvious.
Apple shipped an iPhone without YouTube and without Maps. The whole set of decisions, including the form-factor, seems very un-Jobs-like.
However, owning up to the problem is something I applaud Cook for doing. Not only that, but look at what he suggests -- adding web apps to the desktop. Because he knows that once they fix the Maps app (by getting a better database), it will be superior to web apps!
Notice what Tim Cook did not say: download the alternative APPLICATIONS. Are there any?
Apple's maps application is just provably worse in terms of maps. Period. There is not much to spin there. It was obvious.
Apple shipped an iPhone without YouTube and without Maps. The whole set of decisions, including the form-factor, seems very un-Jobs-like.
However, owning up to the problem is something I applaud Cook for doing. Not only that, but look at what he suggests -- adding web apps to the desktop. Because he knows that once they fix the Maps app (by getting a better database), it will be superior to web apps!
Notice what Tim Cook did not say: download the alternative APPLICATIONS. Are there any?
Around here (Washington DC) Apple's maps aren't much different that Google's as far as address matching - in several queries, considerably better even - but there's a huge gap in all of the ancillary data.
I live near a park with a city rec center, pool, sports fields, etc. and a public high school. A little testing showed the following:
Google Maps: correctly labels all of the above, including building outlines
OpenStreetMaps: correctly labels everything but the school, but they do have building outlines and even parking lots marked.
Bing: nothing but the school name labeled at the nearest intersection rather than correctly in the middle of the [long] block.
Apple, Nokia, Map Quest: featureless void
I live near a park with a city rec center, pool, sports fields, etc. and a public high school. A little testing showed the following:
Google Maps: correctly labels all of the above, including building outlines
OpenStreetMaps: correctly labels everything but the school, but they do have building outlines and even parking lots marked.
Bing: nothing but the school name labeled at the nearest intersection rather than correctly in the middle of the [long] block.
Apple, Nokia, Map Quest: featureless void
This is how you do it. Well done, Mr Cook.
Having some standards and providing a working maps app before release would be my definition of "how to do it", but maybe I'm missing something here.
Obviously Apple knew their solution was shit, but they released it anyway, hoping people wouldn't mind too much. That was their choice and now they have to deal.
This is not dealing.
Obviously Apple knew their solution was shit, but they released it anyway, hoping people wouldn't mind too much. That was their choice and now they have to deal.
This is not dealing.
Curious, I've heard many times now that by simply using Apples new mapping app it will get better when more people use it. I have yet to understand how that process works. Can anyone elaborate? Thanks.
So basically, Tim Cook says: "Use it! Or don't."
It would've been nice to see OpenStreetMap get some mention though, as users who think OSM sucks can improve it and indirectly improve iOS maps at the same time.
It would've been nice to see OpenStreetMap get some mention though, as users who think OSM sucks can improve it and indirectly improve iOS maps at the same time.
I would like to know more about this. It's completely not mentioned in the conversation (not just Tim's apology) at all. I know the new app incoroprates traffic data from Waze but they don't talk about OSM involvement at all.
Obviously the maps app should never have been released. Beta testing showed that it had issues. I give props to Tim Cook, though. Steve Jobs would have never apologized like this.
I'm worried about Apple's software development lately (Lion, iTunes Match, Maps) but this apology makes me feel a little better about them acknowledging mistakes and working to fix it. I know they obviously have the in-house talent, they just need to get quality control back to mid-2000s form. Hopefully this dust-up over maps wakes them up.
I'm worried about Apple's software development lately (Lion, iTunes Match, Maps) but this apology makes me feel a little better about them acknowledging mistakes and working to fix it. I know they obviously have the in-house talent, they just need to get quality control back to mid-2000s form. Hopefully this dust-up over maps wakes them up.
Anyone else think Apple Maps just isn't that bad. I used it for a trip from Chicago to Wisconsin and it worked out perfectly. I guess I'm just not that interested in people with problems with Apple Maps in China or small German towns. Here in the midwest US it seems to work just fine and find everything that GMaps used to. I actually like the Yelp! review integration as well.
Oh well!
I suppose I'm the only one to know that this software is driven by a service which, in time, will most definitely improve exponentially with use.
Oh well!
I suppose I'm the only one to know that this software is driven by a service which, in time, will most definitely improve exponentially with use.
I live in São Paulo, one of the greatest cities in the world and here the maps are shit. In London where I was Friday it's also shit. Both are not your average small German town. For driving directions it's basically TomTom. You're not interested but I am, and not everyone live in a car.
or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their websites
"Please take a look at our competitors, and learn to associate their brands with the subpar web versions of their mapping software."
"Please take a look at our competitors, and learn to associate their brands with the subpar web versions of their mapping software."
He didn't address why they couldn't release them side-by-side for a year or so to get feedback on the new product before relying on it as the sole bundled maps product.
Let me refer to IE here. IE gets shipped with Windows. Many(actually, too many) users don't like using it and install & use Chrome, Firefox etc.
Let's hope that Apple plays fair game and lets Google, Bing and other Maps applications compete with Apple Maps. If Apple Maps app can't become/remain the most popular app in the category for any number of reasons, Apple Maps will get reduced to a product which is forced on to users.
Let's hope that Apple plays fair game and lets Google, Bing and other Maps applications compete with Apple Maps. If Apple Maps app can't become/remain the most popular app in the category for any number of reasons, Apple Maps will get reduced to a product which is forced on to users.
I'm thinking Apple didn't want to partner with Microsoft simply out of pride. After all the years Jobs and Gates went at each other, there's still legions of people on both sides who will never use the other companies products.
Just for the record, the Bing Mobile Maps application is top notch. I've used it frequently and the quality of the maps and interaction is slightly above the Android Google version.
Just for the record, the Bing Mobile Maps application is top notch. I've used it frequently and the quality of the maps and interaction is slightly above the Android Google version.
Probably is really nice to be on the apple-map-team team right now. They get pushed in delivering something, then probably gets a nice "you suck and you should feel bad for making us look bad"-reception from everyone. I don't know about you guys, but I for one think someone ought to give these guys a pat on the back and a pitcher of beer with a note saying "this too shall pass".
Who thought we'd ever see an Apple CEO actually telling customers to use a competing product to something Apple made while they were the CEO?
Yeah the apple maps were disappointing but the apology letter yields to the masses. It doesn't show leadership. Always look forward.
I wonder how long till apple makes something similar to google's mapmaker.
watch map edits in real time for a while and you'll see the power of local people for fixing a lot of map issues.
http://www.google.com/mapmaker/pulse
Does anyone else find irony that Tim Cook shares a last name with James Cook?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=cooks+map
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=cooks+map
I wonder....contrast the relatively polished release of OS X mountain lion (yes, it had a few hiccups, but overall, pretty smooth) under Federighi (and potentially with Serlet lineage) with iOS 6, with its ambitious but flawed features, skeuomorphic design, etc.
What is going on in the mind of Scott Forstall?
What is going on in the mind of Scott Forstall?
Sounds like Tim Cook thinks that good maps are a chicken-and-egg problem. You can't correct bad maps without users reporting inaccuracies, and you can't get people to use inaccurate maps. So you force it on them, and then start fixing everything that gets reported. Crowdsourcing.
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I actually prefer the way the new Maps look, specially when I am walking. As a photographer I do end up in the wild often and the new Maps is just better and more fluid to browse the surroundings, specially in satellite.
If only it had the data..or a way to pull in Foursquare locations.
If only it had the data..or a way to pull in Foursquare locations.
Great to see this letter from Tim Cook. When was the last time such a letter was written by a CEO?
Not branded as from Steve Jobs himself, but this is very reminiscent of the 'Antennagate' letter Apple issued after the introduction of the iPhone 4: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-...
Hardly the same. It starts off by essentially saying "b-but everyone else does it!", and nothing even remotely close to "we fell short on this commitment" or "We are extremely sorry".
Jobs wasn’t good at apologizing. That doesn’t mean he was unable to recognize and correct errors – but before there was a solution to some problem, he had a very hard time acknowledging the problem or even apologizing for it in public.
So while he might say “Yeah, what we had sucked, but our new thing fixes all these problems!” he wouldn’t really do the same so openly in times when there is no clear solution in sight.
So while he might say “Yeah, what we had sucked, but our new thing fixes all these problems!” he wouldn’t really do the same so openly in times when there is no clear solution in sight.
Well yes but it takes guts to sign off a letter by your name because it will always be out in the open. Come to think of it, Jobs signed out "Thoughts on Flash" with his name but this is not quite the same. Still searching!
Jobs. Antennagate.
Do you have a link to a letter which says signed by Steve Jobs? The OP link is signed by Tim Cook CEO, Apple.
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It's great that he apologized, but it shouldn't have been a surprise. The problems that I have had are so gross, so blindingly obvious, that the most cursory use would have revealed problems. Hence he cannot of himself used the product, which is kinda sad.
>we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the ground up.
Or pay Google.
Or pay Google.
Seriously, that's not the only apology apple should make.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12506897/is-safari-on-ios...
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12506897/is-safari-on-ios...
I really did think that Apple had a policy of never apologizing. It seems that I was wrong. A great deal of kudos to Tim Cook for the apology. Perhaps an end to Apple's monumental hubris and arrogance is in sight?
That's what apple sells, a brand. Once they become commodity, it's all gone.
A product that gets better as people use it is basically a beta.
Apple isn't known for releasing beta products so I think it's not a wonder they are noticing the consumers backlash.
I won't be upgrading to iOS6 until I have Google Maps.
Apple isn't known for releasing beta products so I think it's not a wonder they are noticing the consumers backlash.
I won't be upgrading to iOS6 until I have Google Maps.
A product that gets better as people use it is basically a beta.
A product that doesn't get better as people use it is dead.
A product that doesn't get better as people use it is dead.
Am I the only one to think that such an apology requires guts and honesty?
Kudos for that.
Kudos for that.
Now I'm convinced Apple is in trouble.
It's not in Apple's DNA to apologize. Jobs would have said "We are building the most revolutionary mapping system ever created. This is an active endeavor and if it doesn't currently meet your needs we have at least 100 other mapping apps in the app store."
And then Jobs wouldn't have said anything else about the subject and moved on.
The reality distortion field is fading fast with Cook in charge. Jobs would have made everyone think they're part of a mapping revolution. Cook has allowed everyone to think they got ripped off.
It's not in Apple's DNA to apologize. Jobs would have said "We are building the most revolutionary mapping system ever created. This is an active endeavor and if it doesn't currently meet your needs we have at least 100 other mapping apps in the app store."
And then Jobs wouldn't have said anything else about the subject and moved on.
The reality distortion field is fading fast with Cook in charge. Jobs would have made everyone think they're part of a mapping revolution. Cook has allowed everyone to think they got ripped off.
Oh please.
1) http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/
2) http://www.applegazette.com/dotmac/apple-issues-mobileme-apo...
To name a couple. Let's take a deep breath. It's going to be okay.
1) http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/
2) http://www.applegazette.com/dotmac/apple-issues-mobileme-apo...
To name a couple. Let's take a deep breath. It's going to be okay.
The first one isn't a technical problem. And the second isn't from Jobs.
Here's the problem. Apple's technology has flaws. Jobs was great at convincing people that flaws were features. I believe his ability was fundamental to their success.
Cook admits flaws are flaws and this could slowly start to change people's perception of Apple's products.
Here's the problem. Apple's technology has flaws. Jobs was great at convincing people that flaws were features. I believe his ability was fundamental to their success.
Cook admits flaws are flaws and this could slowly start to change people's perception of Apple's products.
I think that this "Jobs would have done" attitude is wrong and far from constructive. First of all Jobs wasn't a genius, wasn't a saint, he was a very good techy entrepreneur. I think this is the right move on from Apple; they messed up big time and now they apologised for it.
And regarding Jobs.. get over it... he probably would have done a lot of things but he is sadly not among us anymore so stop guessing what he would have done or wouldn't have done.
And regarding Jobs.. get over it... he probably would have done a lot of things but he is sadly not among us anymore so stop guessing what he would have done or wouldn't have done.
More than this letter, I would love if they update their product page as well and remove the "Amazing Maps" section from their website.
Adding "Steve Jobs would have never..." to my list of meaningless cliches alongside "perception is reality" and "it is what it is".
Buy TomTom (people seem to like their app for iOS). Swap the current data for the one used by TomTom in their app. Problem solved.
The Apple Map street data is based on OSM. I haven't used Apple Maps so far. But is Apple using an old dataset or is OSM simply bad in some regions? I've heard that there were some problems like Apple rendering some forest roads as normal streets and so on.
Because in my experience the OSM data is quite good and even better than the Google Maps data. But then again I life in a populated area with probably a large number of OSM contributors.
And is Apple giving anything back to OSM? E.g. data or money?
Because in my experience the OSM data is quite good and even better than the Google Maps data. But then again I life in a populated area with probably a large number of OSM contributors.
And is Apple giving anything back to OSM? E.g. data or money?
i wonder if this came from a top-down directive "ship on schedule or don't bother." something like Marissa Mayer said this week[1]. GLHF.
[1] http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Mar...
[1] http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Mar...
Jobs knew one thing: Quality is job one. If it wasn't quality, it wasn't included. Maybe this helps them remember that.
Now I need a letter apologizing about the finish chipping off and the total lack of cases in the marketplace.
Create a custom icon that goes to the Google Maps homepage? That's really they suggested solution? Wow...
Slipping in download statistics in an apology - oh Apple - you are selling even when you are apologizing.
Issue a defective product and crowd source data to perfect it. Pathetic approach. We miss you Steve
Wow. When was the last time Apple officially recommend another company's product as a workaround?
Is it really true that there are 100 million devices using ios6 already?
I miss Steve, this would never had happened if he was there
i wonder how so they test maps? I mean, there cant be test cases for every major co-ordinates. Probably Apple fucked up in their maps testing.
He doesn't mention OpenStreet Map as an alternative!
It would be nice if they approved Google's Map application for the time being as a great alternative. The lack of that option is what is holding me back in iOS 5...
Google hasn't even submitted an app,that's been confirmed.
I didn't know it had been confirmed yet, can you add a link?
[deleted]
They can't approve Google's map application, until google submit one.
Is there any indication there is a Maps app from Google awaiting approval? I thought the consensus was that Google is scrambling to build one now. This sounds like speculation.
The reports I've read indicate that Google are still working on their iOS Maps App so I don't believe there is anything for Apple to simply approve right now.
Zero mention of mass transit directions.
Without Jobs Apple is mere Microsoft..)
Apple time to make some friends :-)
IOW: Apple admits iOS maps is a complete failure.
It least they didn't pretend otherwise, like with mobileme.
It least they didn't pretend otherwise, like with mobileme.
The real question is: douchebags or losers? I'm going for a combination of both.
He's so full of shit.
What's so funny about all of this is that the functionaliity at issue is so basic. It's 1990's. Remember getting door to door directions from Mapquest and print them out?
Now add text-to-speech.
Now add lots and lots of hype, branding, smaller form factor, etc., etc.
This is door-to-door directions and text-to-speech. Perhaps greatly improved since the 90's, but certainly not new or cutting edge.
This is the type of stuff Apple, the world's wealthiest company, cannot get right. Because it's not their focus. They do not focus on something as simple as directions. That is just raw facts, nothing creative. No magic. Apple focusses on other things. Design. But if I just want to go from A to B and need directions, fast, I really don't give a shit about design. Apple cultists might. I don't.
Well, if you are an Apple cutltist, you won't be getting simple accurate directions the way the guy using Google, or Mapquest, or ..., is able to get them.
Now add text-to-speech.
Now add lots and lots of hype, branding, smaller form factor, etc., etc.
This is door-to-door directions and text-to-speech. Perhaps greatly improved since the 90's, but certainly not new or cutting edge.
This is the type of stuff Apple, the world's wealthiest company, cannot get right. Because it's not their focus. They do not focus on something as simple as directions. That is just raw facts, nothing creative. No magic. Apple focusses on other things. Design. But if I just want to go from A to B and need directions, fast, I really don't give a shit about design. Apple cultists might. I don't.
Well, if you are an Apple cutltist, you won't be getting simple accurate directions the way the guy using Google, or Mapquest, or ..., is able to get them.
We launched Maps initially with the first version of iOS. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the ground up.
Google already did all of this. It's just that Apple wouldn't let them include those features on iOS. This is rather blatant lying.
Google already did all of this. It's just that Apple wouldn't let them include those features on iOS. This is rather blatant lying.
From Google Maps' terms of service:
10.2 Restrictions on the Types of Applications that You are Permitted to Build with the Maps API(s). Except as explicitly permitted in Section 8 (Licenses from Google to You) or the Maps APIs Documentation, you must not (nor may you permit anyone else to) do any of the following:
(a) No "Wrapping." You must not create or offer a "wrapper" for the Service, unless you obtain Google's written consent to do so. For example, you are not permitted to: (i) use or provide any part of the Service or Content (such as map imagery, geocoding, directions, places, or terrain data) in an API that you offer to others; or (ii) create a Maps API Implementation that reimplements or duplicates Google Maps/Google Earth. For clarity, you are not "re-implementing or duplicating" Google Maps/Google Earth if your Maps API Implementation provides substantial additional features or content beyond Google Maps/Google Earth, and those additional features or content constitute the primary defining characteristic of your Maps API Implementation.
(b) No Business, Residential, or Telephone Listings Services. You must not display any of the business listings Content provided by the Maps API(s) in any Maps API Implementation that has the primary purpose of making available business, residential address, or telephone directory listings.
(c) No Navigation, Autonomous Vehicle Control, or Enterprise Applications. You must not use the Service or Content with any products, systems, or applications for or in connection with any of the following:
(i) real time navigation or route guidance, including but not limited to turn-by-turn route guidance that is synchronized to the position of a user's sensor-enabled device.
(ii) any systems or functions for automatic or autonomous control of vehicle behavior; or
(iii) enterprise dispatch, fleet management, business asset tracking or similar applications. If you want to engage in enterprise dispatch, fleet management, business asset tracking, or similar applications, please contact the Google Maps API for Business sales team to obtain a Google enterprise license. (If you are offering a non-enterprise implementation, you may use the Google Maps API(s) to track assets such as cars, buses or other vehicles, as long as your tracking application is made available to the public without charge. For example, you may offer a free, public Maps API Implementation that displays real-time public transit or other transportation status information.)
Those features in Android's Google Maps only exist because they don't have to follow the TOS.
10.2 Restrictions on the Types of Applications that You are Permitted to Build with the Maps API(s). Except as explicitly permitted in Section 8 (Licenses from Google to You) or the Maps APIs Documentation, you must not (nor may you permit anyone else to) do any of the following:
(a) No "Wrapping." You must not create or offer a "wrapper" for the Service, unless you obtain Google's written consent to do so. For example, you are not permitted to: (i) use or provide any part of the Service or Content (such as map imagery, geocoding, directions, places, or terrain data) in an API that you offer to others; or (ii) create a Maps API Implementation that reimplements or duplicates Google Maps/Google Earth. For clarity, you are not "re-implementing or duplicating" Google Maps/Google Earth if your Maps API Implementation provides substantial additional features or content beyond Google Maps/Google Earth, and those additional features or content constitute the primary defining characteristic of your Maps API Implementation.
(b) No Business, Residential, or Telephone Listings Services. You must not display any of the business listings Content provided by the Maps API(s) in any Maps API Implementation that has the primary purpose of making available business, residential address, or telephone directory listings.
(c) No Navigation, Autonomous Vehicle Control, or Enterprise Applications. You must not use the Service or Content with any products, systems, or applications for or in connection with any of the following:
(i) real time navigation or route guidance, including but not limited to turn-by-turn route guidance that is synchronized to the position of a user's sensor-enabled device.
(ii) any systems or functions for automatic or autonomous control of vehicle behavior; or
(iii) enterprise dispatch, fleet management, business asset tracking or similar applications. If you want to engage in enterprise dispatch, fleet management, business asset tracking, or similar applications, please contact the Google Maps API for Business sales team to obtain a Google enterprise license. (If you are offering a non-enterprise implementation, you may use the Google Maps API(s) to track assets such as cars, buses or other vehicles, as long as your tracking application is made available to the public without charge. For example, you may offer a free, public Maps API Implementation that displays real-time public transit or other transportation status information.)
Those features in Android's Google Maps only exist because they don't have to follow the TOS.
Apple isn't exactly a random API user. Until you find written copies of the agreement between Google and Apple, don't claim any of that even applied to them.
That's the simplest explanation, though. These other conspiracy theories about Apple wanting to withhold features from its customers and catch Google with its pants down are nothing more than mindless speculation.
Can you provide a citation for where Google offered turn by turn integration and voice nav to Apple but apple refused it?
I believe the we in "we wanted to provide our customers" is Apple, not Apple and Google. Hyperbolic to call it blatant lying.
I believe it is blatant lying because they went out of their way to prevent their customers from having those features, even though they were readily available on other platforms through their established partner. It's also rather dishonest to say that they had to build something new from the ground up. They had other options (namely Google), which would have served their customers better.
Multiple independent sources have confirmed that their contract with Google prohibited Apple from implementing turn by turn. That's why Apple chose to roll their own app. If you're going to accuse someone of lying, it would be a good idea to have the facts on your side.
Actually, from everything I've read, it appears Google refused to allow Apple to implement those features (see, for example, http://allthingsd.com/20120926/apple-google-maps-talks-crash...). Google wanted to keep those features exclusive to Android maps.
Google could have been asked to provide the same features, but there must be concessions Apple would have to give Google. These trade-offs, when evaluated by Apple, were not something that served their customers better. You can disagree with that, but it doesn't mean they are lying. And if it isn't obvious they are lying, it certainly isn't blatant.
To get what they wanted without trade offs, without hidden compromise of their customers, they had to leave their partner. A partner, mind you, who had shown they will put better products (GMail app, Map app) on their own platform (I like both those apps on Android, and GMail on iOS is a joke).
By building their own from the ground up, they also prevent this from happening again with another external partner who wishes to gain some leverage over the richest company in the world.
I'm not apologizing for the decision, or the quality of maps. And while I love to stigmatize liars, this accusation waters down the insult of blatant lying.
To get what they wanted without trade offs, without hidden compromise of their customers, they had to leave their partner. A partner, mind you, who had shown they will put better products (GMail app, Map app) on their own platform (I like both those apps on Android, and GMail on iOS is a joke).
By building their own from the ground up, they also prevent this from happening again with another external partner who wishes to gain some leverage over the richest company in the world.
I'm not apologizing for the decision, or the quality of maps. And while I love to stigmatize liars, this accusation waters down the insult of blatant lying.
They had to if they considered that what Google was asking was unreasonable. For all we now Google might have asked for things Apple was not comfortable giving them, starting with user data and all the way up to co-branding.
Uhm, what?
How the hell do you know that Google would have allowed them to use all of that for reasonable terms? You do not. You are just clueless.
How the hell do you know that Google would have allowed them to use all of that for reasonable terms? You do not. You are just clueless.
I keep reading similar arguments and I wonder was there ever any piece of evidence to support it?
There isn’t really. Neither is there for the opposite.
So on the surface we have Apple very aggressively attacking everything android related. Then when they switch from Google Maps, suddenly we start speculating that maybe it all was Google's fault...
No, not Google’s fault. Google has every right (and I mean moral as well as legal) to deny Apple access to their maps. I think there is nothing wrong with that. Yeah, it might be Google’s fault, but not in the sense of a moral fault.
Let's assume that Apple's contract with Google was ending soon, and that Google had failed to deliver features for Apple (turn by turn, etc), meaning Apple wanted to go a different direction.
Sure, Apple then started buying up mapping companies, building their own product, but they must have known they were on a tight schedule. My question is -- why didn't they partner with Microsoft to use Bing maps?
Microsoft gets a huge win in that suddenly 40 million people are using their service. Apple gets a win in that they have a pretty comparative product out of the gate to Google Maps, and it gives them time to build up their own service.
But instead, Apple released maps that had 1/3rd the quality of the maps they had before. Where's the logic in that?