9 Year Old Girl Becomes Microsoft Certified "Professional"(gizmodo.com)
gizmodo.com
9 Year Old Girl Becomes Microsoft Certified "Professional"
http://gizmodo.com/5116747/9-year-old-girl-becomes-the-youngest-microsoft-certified-professional
14 comments
I'm from the same part of India that this girl is. This kind of crap is very common there. The kids who do this are not necessarily intelligent, they usually just crammed for years. Nor do they have a say in the matter. Everything is orchestrated by the parents. It's like a dog show -- the parents compete using their kids. Needless to say, the kid's childhood and normal development are completely derailed (I've seen it in person). The parents aren't evil; it's just a facet of the hyper-competitive society. The best way to describe it is that it's India's version of the contest in Little Miss Sunshine.
The negative comments here don't come close to capturing how messed up this is.
The negative comments here don't come close to capturing how messed up this is.
I've seen this kind of thing a lot - it's not limited to India - and completely agree with you that it's almost always the parent(s) pushing the kid, and very sad. Every now and then you see some 11-year-old or 13-year-old finishing an undergraduate degree, paraded in front of foolish journalists who dutifully put out the next "genius" story. Same thing with most musical prodigies - the 9-year old performing with the local philharmonic or what have you.
Kids don't care about super-achievement of credentials. Mostly they just want to know their parents love them and to be like other kids. It's parents who perversely put their children through this, to fill their own ego needs. Your dog show analogy is unfortunately apt.
Kids don't care about super-achievement of credentials. Mostly they just want to know their parents love them and to be like other kids. It's parents who perversely put their children through this, to fill their own ego needs. Your dog show analogy is unfortunately apt.
Actually, kids can be hyper-focused on credentials. That's why they're so susceptible. The very same behavioral triggers can create obsessions in videogames, especially RPG's. The nice thing about 'real-world' credentials is that they have a path leading out of that mess, whereas videogames often don't.
I'm unconvinced. Sure, children can internalize anything very quickly - the question is why this rather than that? I'm sure that little girl was very focused on achieving her Microsoft certification. But I'll bet you the task itself was originally handed to her by a parent, and that her motivation had everything to do with pleasing that parent.
As for "a path leading out of that mess", the only path I know is growing as a person. What's sad about these manufactured prodigies is that they end up having to do a lot of that the hard way, if they do it at all.
As for "a path leading out of that mess", the only path I know is growing as a person. What's sad about these manufactured prodigies is that they end up having to do a lot of that the hard way, if they do it at all.
I think you underestimate the agency that a nine year old can have, and the influence of the extended family, friends, and role models. It's probable that the specific task was handed to her, yes. And it's often true that parents push their children too far. But I think it's also possible she decided to do it on her own after reading or hearing some inspirational story.
I am projecting my own experience as a child onto her, but when I was her age I heard about Microsoft credentials. I considered trying for them, but my mother's friend told me they were a distraction, and gave me a copy of Turbo C++ instead. I can't remember ever thinking about pleasing my parents. It never entered my conscious thought. I just knew I wanted to learn to program computers, and I couldn't, in that time, be interested in computers as a kid and envision Microsoft's credentials with the disdain that I do now. I suspect it's the same now, in India.
It's true that the only way out of credentialism is growing oneself as a person, and finding a way to develop a self-referent identity. The advantage is that one grows while striving, and one can often find oneself in much better place, with better social support, and deeper values. It's a lot more difficult to see this in the construct of an RPG, or in most public high-schools.
I am projecting my own experience as a child onto her, but when I was her age I heard about Microsoft credentials. I considered trying for them, but my mother's friend told me they were a distraction, and gave me a copy of Turbo C++ instead. I can't remember ever thinking about pleasing my parents. It never entered my conscious thought. I just knew I wanted to learn to program computers, and I couldn't, in that time, be interested in computers as a kid and envision Microsoft's credentials with the disdain that I do now. I suspect it's the same now, in India.
It's true that the only way out of credentialism is growing oneself as a person, and finding a way to develop a self-referent identity. The advantage is that one grows while striving, and one can often find oneself in much better place, with better social support, and deeper values. It's a lot more difficult to see this in the construct of an RPG, or in most public high-schools.
Yes, I acknowledge what you're talking about is real (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=400286), and the two phenomena are quite different, though they may be difficult to distinguish from the outside.
arrgh! such stuff happens?!
Thank god it was me and my brother who kept annoying our parents to buy us a computer and not the parents pushing me to anything.
I'm not sure about hyper-competitiveness but 2-3 of my college friends from that part of India still get beaten up by their parents.
Why just a microsoft certification ? there can be so much more the girl can do with her abilities!! things that are more fruitful, knowledge that is more universal than a microsoft certy!
Why just a microsoft certification ? there can be so much more the girl can do with her abilities!! things that are more fruitful, knowledge that is more universal than a microsoft certy!
"This kind of crap is very common there"... well the article definitely says that she broke a world record. How can that be a common feat?
The way I look at it, her parents are trying to show her the best path possible and use her skills (memorizing thirukkural when you are 3 is awesome, 1330 couplets ).
It certainly did not turn out so bad in Tiger Wood's case...
The way I look at it, her parents are trying to show her the best path possible and use her skills (memorizing thirukkural when you are 3 is awesome, 1330 couplets ).
It certainly did not turn out so bad in Tiger Wood's case...
I would upvote you a 1000 times if I could.
I read such stories almost every week in India. X kid doing that or this. All crap.
your point: the parents compete using their kids it's right.
We don't see any of these kids in the newspapers when they are grown up. Why? Because these kids aren't born for what they are forced to do. Once they start using their brains, they change and begin to pursue what they want.
I read such stories almost every week in India. X kid doing that or this. All crap.
your point: the parents compete using their kids it's right.
We don't see any of these kids in the newspapers when they are grown up. Why? Because these kids aren't born for what they are forced to do. Once they start using their brains, they change and begin to pursue what they want.
The difference between you and her is that she did it and you dismissed her accomplishment no matter how little.
This isn't always true. When I was 12, I became the youngest Apple certified tehcnician. And I can tell you very clearly: my parents did not force or encourage me to do that at all.
I am an American and I was older than this girl, but I don't think you can totally discount the possibility that she just wanted to do it for herself.
I am an American and I was older than this girl, but I don't think you can totally discount the possibility that she just wanted to do it for herself.
I assume you meant to reply to my comment above instead of to Eliezer. The article leaves out one important fact (I saw the same news on Engadget but it linked to a more detailed article.) Apparently, the girl broke a record when she was 3 years old by reciting a certain humungous 1300-verse, 1900-year old text written in an ancient version of Tamil. Recently there have been a number of kids doing it at younger and younger ages and getting on TV. That's what prompted my "dog show" comment and I stand by it.
The SAT is kinda boring and useless.
All tests resulting in credentials are kinda boring and useless.
Woz read a book about a ham radio operator and was so inspired he built his own radio and took the ham operator test. It seemed that he got a lot out of it.
My cofounder and his wife once took the Diplomatic Service Exam. She had wanted to be a diplomat, he joined for support. They got through the final rounds, and it was far from boring! During their time there, they witnessed some incredible undiplomatic behavior from an actual diplomat in the foreign service, freaking out in the cafeteria line. They were quizzed ineptly on the 'canon' of American literature. Finally, (if I recall correctly) they passed the test. It was, however, useless, because all of the jobs went to Reagan's cronies, instead.
My cofounder and his wife once took the Diplomatic Service Exam. She had wanted to be a diplomat, he joined for support. They got through the final rounds, and it was far from boring! During their time there, they witnessed some incredible undiplomatic behavior from an actual diplomat in the foreign service, freaking out in the cafeteria line. They were quizzed ineptly on the 'canon' of American literature. Finally, (if I recall correctly) they passed the test. It was, however, useless, because all of the jobs went to Reagan's cronies, instead.
During the .COM 1.0 recession, back in the stone age, one of my fellow fresh faced and unemployed CS grads was considering getting MCTS certified in order to improve his job prospects.
I used the then popular story about a 12 year old Pakistani girl who got the same certificate, to dissuade my friend.
And so I encourage all of today's fresh faced and unemployed hackers to think of that 9 year old when the current recession is wearing them down. Do you really think that MCTS will help?
I used the then popular story about a 12 year old Pakistani girl who got the same certificate, to dissuade my friend.
And so I encourage all of today's fresh faced and unemployed hackers to think of that 9 year old when the current recession is wearing them down. Do you really think that MCTS will help?
I thought about getting a MCP when I was 15. Then everyone I knew in the computer field told me it was a waste of time.
So I learned Perl instead, which honestly helped my career a whole lot more.
So I learned Perl instead, which honestly helped my career a whole lot more.
How old are you now? When I was 14 there were no certs -- I got a job in a local PC shop as a stock boy. I am convinced I worked for Korean gangsters now; However back then I thought it was a kick ass job (Since nobody I knew was working.) I still own one fried 8088 mobo (black to black wha?) and the three surfboards I managed to buy whilst working. In reality it was one of the worst jobs I have ever had, as I had to work in an attic sorting PC parts and fetching orders in 100+ attic heat with a 4ft ceiling (I kid not) and had to get to work Sundays @ 5am to unload "orders" from Mexico from the meanest people I have ever met. I learned more about life in that year then I have in the last 20.
27. This was about 1997.
I was in kindergarten when people were still using 8088s.
I was in kindergarten when people were still using 8088s.
Shouldn't the practical test consist of misconfigured ActiveDirectory permissions to fix,spyware uninstallation, and a registry to clean? The general tip to choose whichever option requires buying more Microsoft licenses worked when I took the test 10 years ago.
I've always thought that these certification programs were more of a game of trivial pursuit then a good gage of abilities.
maybe this says more about the certification than the girl.
Does it mean that if 15 mastered Python, it says more about Python than a guy? If so, what it precisely says?
At an old job, I interviewed a few hundred programmers for Windows jobs. Almost every single MSCP could recite .NET esoterica from the test, but could not write a for loop. I am not exaggerating. Eventually I started screening out MSCP's. That test is awful. Getting a MSC* cert is the weak last gasp of the failed professional programmer. It is Rock Bottom. There is nothing left after getting an MSCP, except possibly becoming a comment troll on Jeff Atwood's blog. Nothing makes me more pleased to have left Windows development than the fact that I will never have to have another awkward interview with a "certified professional."
(I am guessing this girl is legitimately bright--you can't blame a 9 year old for not knowing these ugly facts.)
(I am guessing this girl is legitimately bright--you can't blame a 9 year old for not knowing these ugly facts.)
For any Microsoft certification, there are dumps everywhere on the internet. I'd rather be happy if the girl became a SJCP.
Meh, dumps exist for SJCP too... just not the whole test. Years ago when I took it for an employer about 1/3 of the questions were in dumps at the time. A co-worker said almost all his questions were from dumps when he took the SJCP exam. Sun does a better job than Microsoft but not much better.
Scarred for life. Someone should call child protective services.
She lives in something that still approximates a third world country. "Saved for life", by guaranteeing herself a solid future, would be a more apt description.
It's not likely she was missing ballet practice and play dates in suburban parks to accomplish this.
It's not likely she was missing ballet practice and play dates in suburban parks to accomplish this.
You know this how? Being threatened with being taken away from her family would be any better?
With all the exam dumps available it is no longer difficult to clear any certification exam. However still, if this 9 year old sits in front of a PC, I will be sure she knows what she is doing. That in itself is an achievement for her age.
this proves that MCTS certifications are bullshit (btw - I have an exam scheduled for January)
She might be unusually gifted. The article states that she has a fairly excellent memory. And it is conceivable that she has a fairly high IQ.
We wouldn't have scoffed as much if she mastered a branch of Mathematics instead.
We wouldn't have scoffed as much if she mastered a branch of Mathematics instead.
We also wouldn't have scoffed as much if she were merely three years older, and a boy, and working in PHP and Javascript instead of Microsoft technologies:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=156863
Can't we just congratulate the kid and move on? I mean, vital as it is to teach her that credentials are bullshit, can't we let her turn ten before breaking the bad news? She's already much closer to figuring it out for herself than I was at that age.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=156863
Can't we just congratulate the kid and move on? I mean, vital as it is to teach her that credentials are bullshit, can't we let her turn ten before breaking the bad news? She's already much closer to figuring it out for herself than I was at that age.
He did something creative, she just passed a helpdesk test.
Perhaps when she is thirty-three percent older she'll be more creative, too!
Or, instead of showing off her chops, perhaps she'll prefer to quietly rake in the cash as a Windows programmer. It's not like she'd be the only one to make that choice.
Or, instead of showing off her chops, perhaps she'll prefer to quietly rake in the cash as a Windows programmer. It's not like she'd be the only one to make that choice.
So your first argument is that he's "merely three years older", and then your response to a rebuttal is that he's as much as "thirty-three percent older".
The sad thing is, I actually noticed this inconsistency. But I decided to leave it in just to see who noticed. ;)
But if you want to be more serious about it: Sure, I concede the rebuttal. Gaskin's a very creative programmer. He also works on stuff that I actually care about. I agree that passing a Microsoft certification is not in the same league as the least thing that the guy has done. And I agree that cramming for Microsoft tests is not an especially great activity to encourage a nine-year-old to do.
None of which alters my initial reaction: Congratulate the girl and move on. Just because she's no Gaskin doesn't mean she deserves to be the scapegoat for things that are not her fault (the purported meaninglessness of her prized credential; the bureaucratic, credentialist nature of the Microsoft IT consulting ecosystem; the existence of cram schools and dominating parents; the insecurity of Western IT folks about the rise of the Indian software industry; and the fact that she is nine years old and can't necessarily be expected to understand any of this). She's a living, breathing kid who may be reading this thread right now -- a kid with the potential to become creative and talented, who may already be creative and talented when she's not being paraded in front of news cameras. She's not a hypothetical pawn in our intellectual game.
But if you want to be more serious about it: Sure, I concede the rebuttal. Gaskin's a very creative programmer. He also works on stuff that I actually care about. I agree that passing a Microsoft certification is not in the same league as the least thing that the guy has done. And I agree that cramming for Microsoft tests is not an especially great activity to encourage a nine-year-old to do.
None of which alters my initial reaction: Congratulate the girl and move on. Just because she's no Gaskin doesn't mean she deserves to be the scapegoat for things that are not her fault (the purported meaninglessness of her prized credential; the bureaucratic, credentialist nature of the Microsoft IT consulting ecosystem; the existence of cram schools and dominating parents; the insecurity of Western IT folks about the rise of the Indian software industry; and the fact that she is nine years old and can't necessarily be expected to understand any of this). She's a living, breathing kid who may be reading this thread right now -- a kid with the potential to become creative and talented, who may already be creative and talented when she's not being paraded in front of news cameras. She's not a hypothetical pawn in our intellectual game.
If it really was proof, you would cancel your exam.
it is proof - and I won't cancel my exam 'cause it's in my 'goals' for the year
How so?
Because what they're testing (memorized "knowledge") isn't relevant in the real world (where praxis rules).
The so called "Real World" consists of 80% cram jobs - that are plain routine even a robot could do. Not much of praxis needed/ used in real world.
Not every programmer needs to be a LISP/EMACS hacker.
Not every programmer needs to be a LISP/EMACS hacker.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if she turns out to be a Lisp hacker who uses Emacs. Becoming MCP didn't close this avenue for her.
And 11-Year-Old Becomes Network Admin for Alabama School
http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/30/1443202
http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/30/1443202
I always wondered why MS chose a title that abbreviates to MCP, which means Male Chauvinist Pig in the non-tech world. I once created an infamous 'Production Metrics Spreadsheet' which the female members of my team were justifiably referring to as PMS. Operation Iraqi Liberation comes to mind.
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Gee, it must be extraordinarily difficult to become a Mouse Certified Professional.
What's remarkable is that grown adults become MCPs.
2 out of 4 previous employers (I'm a freelancer now) gave me a raise whenever I passed an MCP exam. That's enough motivation for me, since it's not very hard to pass MCP exams (at least MSCD related ones) when you have decent practical experience.
Do you think the certifications have an impact on your freelancer rates?
Well... I can tell I wouldn't pay more for one.
Even if I used something Microsoft ;-)
Even if I used something Microsoft ;-)
Well, MCP just means you've passed one or more certification exams. My current employer is a gold partner with MS, and as a result, we need to have 2+ people with "higher" certifications, such as MCSD, MCAD or MCPD. It saves our company about $50k/year in software licensing. And even though our company hands out a $500 bonus per test passed (plus reimbursement of test and prep materials, and another $1k-1500 for each certification level achieved), only 2 of us at the office are "bothering" to keep updating our certifications/credentials. The other guys say they're "interested" but I think they're holding out for more money.
I think I smell "bias" against Microsoft in the headline.
But instead you're dumping on her because of "Microsoft" in the title? If you're going to dump on someone, dump on Microsoft! And even that is a backhanded insult to her. There are just some very bright 9-year-olds out there.