New mathematical model shows how the body regulates potassium(phys.org)
phys.org
New mathematical model shows how the body regulates potassium
https://phys.org/news/2023-01-mathematical-body-potassium.html
55 comments
Matlab files on Github: https://github.com/Layton-Lab/Kregulation
I once consumed a couple of grams of NU-Salt (potassium chloride) in an effort to lower blood pressure. Indeed it works. Also lowers heart rate. And makes your face numb. Use it lightly on food otherwise everything taste metallic.
This wasn't a very wise experiment -- I don't recommend it. Injected, KCl can kill you (and is used for executions). I don't know the fatal oral dose, but it's so orally unpleasant you'd probably be vomiting before getting there.
This wasn't a very wise experiment -- I don't recommend it. Injected, KCl can kill you (and is used for executions). I don't know the fatal oral dose, but it's so orally unpleasant you'd probably be vomiting before getting there.
I bought a shaker of Nu-Salt after the previous mention of potassium a month ago[1]
I use it instead of table salt to season food. (But still use conventional salt in cooking). The first time I used a bit too much, and everything tasted... off. Since then I've backed off, and it's ok.
I'm shocked at how much weight I've lost (approximately 20 pounds, but I am morbidly obese)
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34072801
I use it instead of table salt to season food. (But still use conventional salt in cooking). The first time I used a bit too much, and everything tasted... off. Since then I've backed off, and it's ok.
I'm shocked at how much weight I've lost (approximately 20 pounds, but I am morbidly obese)
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34072801
> I don't know the fatal oral dose
Probably the reason most OTC potassium supplements (ones sold in the US at least) have FAR less potassium in a single tablet than a banana.
It's basically impossible for a adult with healthy function to overdose themselves on potassium with bananas (or coconut water, or avocados) before getting full, but with the tablets it would be much easier to abuse them if they contained even 1 banana's worth per tablet.
Probably the reason most OTC potassium supplements (ones sold in the US at least) have FAR less potassium in a single tablet than a banana.
It's basically impossible for a adult with healthy function to overdose themselves on potassium with bananas (or coconut water, or avocados) before getting full, but with the tablets it would be much easier to abuse them if they contained even 1 banana's worth per tablet.
Oral LD50 is ~2.6g/kg, for a fatal dose on the order of 180 grams. Which, indeed, sounds impossible to consume without retching out your guts.
I've taken it for nighttime cramps that wake me from sleep after a strenuous workout. A few shakes of NU-Salt into a 1/2-cup of water, stir and drink. Works fast (within 20 seconds) and lets me sleep.
I once dosed (orally) 20g of KCl in about one hour. I felt very "lightly" and felt tingling all over my body. It was nice experiment, but not so wise as you already mentioned.
Small reminder that it's not an experiment unless you have a hypothesis, rule out all other variables, and chronicle the results. No clipboard, no experiment.
Kalium for those who learnt outside of English territory.
Interesting adaptation - Ultramarathoners can adapt to have very high potassium levels. I remember participating in a study with Dr. Stephen Hammer from Indian River State College where we did blood draws, resting heart rates pre and post ultras and they were joking about how high runner's potassium levels were.
Do they adapt to high potassium levels or are selected for their high potassium levels?
> Using existing biological data, researchers at the University of Waterloo built a mathematical model that simulates how an average person's body regulates potassium, both in times of potassium depletion and during potassium intake.
I guess a mathematical model of how the average body regulates potassium leaves no room for error... right? No chance of causing the problem the think they will fix?
> The model could be used for a virtual patient trial, allowing researchers to generate dozens of patients and then predict which ones would have hyper- or hypokalemia based on different controls.
Mathematical models, average person, virtual patients, generating dozens of patients... at some point we will get to reality, I hope!
It surely does not need repeating that: the map is not the terrain.
I guess a mathematical model of how the average body regulates potassium leaves no room for error... right? No chance of causing the problem the think they will fix?
> The model could be used for a virtual patient trial, allowing researchers to generate dozens of patients and then predict which ones would have hyper- or hypokalemia based on different controls.
Mathematical models, average person, virtual patients, generating dozens of patients... at some point we will get to reality, I hope!
It surely does not need repeating that: the map is not the terrain.
I'm not sure where the banana = potassium association was established, but it's odd considering that there are many fruits, like strawberries, contain more potassium than bananas per calorie.
I suspect that it is about availability. Strawberries are only available for a few months each year. Bananas are easy to find on the go. Of course eating greens kale/broccoli is cheaper, more nutritious and more traditional so maybe the whole banana = potassium thing is all just some elaborate United Fruit Company marketing scam.
*Edit: following up on this, it does look like "banana are a good source of potassium" is indeed a united fruit company marketing myth.
Cite 1: https://episodictable.com/potassium/ Cite 2: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31822031040892&vi...
*Edit: following up on this, it does look like "banana are a good source of potassium" is indeed a united fruit company marketing myth.
Cite 1: https://episodictable.com/potassium/ Cite 2: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31822031040892&vi...
A medium banana has 422 mg of K. A strawberry has 18 mg of K. So you'd need to eat like 20+ strawberries to get the same amount of K.
Today you have to eat 8 oranges to get the same amount of Vitamin A as your great grandpa did.[0] Plant nutrition often has a lot more to do with the soil plants are grown on than the plants themselves. This is especially true with mineral content since plants don't produce minerals
[0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-an...
[0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-an...
Since No one ever talks about the elephant in the room that is the Human Population Growth problem, let's just bury our heads in the sand and pretend we aren't on the cusp of a massive catastrophic failure of limited resources.
Eh humans have managed to grow large amount of foods on the same soil for many years and be very productive. There's a myth that modern agriculture has made us produce more. The reality is that it's just made us need less labor. Agriculture, even intensive agriculture, isn't new. What's new is our obsession with monocultures and the empire of destruction needed to uphold that: vast amounts of pesticides, sterilized soils, etc.
Soils inoculated with mycorrhizal fungi can hold 50x more water. Over 90% of plants make mycorrhizal associations and studies comparing plants that have made these associations with those grown in sterilized soils have shown mycorrhizae improves resistance to drought, frost, soil pathogens, etc and grow larger and produce more fruit. I haven't seen the nutritional content analyzed but I'd be surprised if there isn't a big difference there as well
There's a fundamental difference between, for example, the agriculture that fueled the aztec empire and the agriculture that fueled the West's "Green Revolution", China's "Great Leap Forward", Stolypin (as well as Soviet) agrarian reforms, etc.
It's easy to forget that European peasants were basically bouncing from one massive famine to the next until the Andean people gave them the potato. Possibly the single crop most responsible for ending the state of constant famines.
I think the limited resources are caused much more so by our own arrogance than by any fundamental carrying capacity of the environments we inhabit
Soils inoculated with mycorrhizal fungi can hold 50x more water. Over 90% of plants make mycorrhizal associations and studies comparing plants that have made these associations with those grown in sterilized soils have shown mycorrhizae improves resistance to drought, frost, soil pathogens, etc and grow larger and produce more fruit. I haven't seen the nutritional content analyzed but I'd be surprised if there isn't a big difference there as well
There's a fundamental difference between, for example, the agriculture that fueled the aztec empire and the agriculture that fueled the West's "Green Revolution", China's "Great Leap Forward", Stolypin (as well as Soviet) agrarian reforms, etc.
It's easy to forget that European peasants were basically bouncing from one massive famine to the next until the Andean people gave them the potato. Possibly the single crop most responsible for ending the state of constant famines.
I think the limited resources are caused much more so by our own arrogance than by any fundamental carrying capacity of the environments we inhabit
That's why I shared the number in terms of potassium per calorie and not potassium per fruit.
You posed a question about why bananas are the “go to” potassium fruit compared to strawberries. Eating a single banana is way easier than eating 23 strawberries.
The best pro for strawberries is rather that are available grown in greenhouses where the n_p=19 can be controlled as otherwise they are both are the top of pesticide contamination and use.
Strawberries are "famously calorie free", so it just seems to make a lopsided comparison in the other direction.
Most people don't eat per calorie. They eat to fulfillment which is some combination of volume & weight.
If you like the potassium per calorie of strawberry, check out spinach (~4.76 mg potassium per calorie for strawberries vs ~23 mg per calorie for spinach, plus spinach is loaded with vitamin k and a bunch of other great stuff like magnesium).
It is a bit odd. Considering you can get 800mg of potassium from a single glass of pomegranate juice.
Nowadays everything has large doses of potassium in it due to modern farming practices. They use almost exclusively chemical fertilizer containing potassium, phosphorus and nitrogen.
Nowadays everything has large doses of potassium in it due to modern farming practices. They use almost exclusively chemical fertilizer containing potassium, phosphorus and nitrogen.
Strawberries are too sweet.
Is the price point per calorie the same? How about storage/transportation? When I could go pick fresh organic strawberries in the field I loved them. Where I am now strawberries are expensive (slightly) flavored expensive cardboard. Bananas are the same both places. They seem like a pretty efficient source, consumed and available world wide with a much longer shelf life. Traveling overseas dried banana chips were one of the cheapest snack foods available everywhere to everyone. Dried strawberries not so much.
Avocados have more potassium than bananas and less glycemic load.
"Do not let perfect be the enemy of the good." There's nothing wrong with eating bananas.
Don't get me wrong, I love bananas, but I prefer to stay in ketosis.
That's a good plan if you struggle with insulin resistance, as many do. However if that's not a problem your avocado vs banana choice can freely be based on taste preference.
That's a lot of people https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2017/p0718-diabetes-repor...
And "7.2 million Americans – didn’t know they had the condition. Only 11.6 percent of adults with prediabetes knew they had it."
How many people think they are able to make this choice based on personal preference while doing harm to their metabolic health? A1C tests are affordable without insurance.
And "7.2 million Americans – didn’t know they had the condition. Only 11.6 percent of adults with prediabetes knew they had it."
How many people think they are able to make this choice based on personal preference while doing harm to their metabolic health? A1C tests are affordable without insurance.
Not that I'm an expert, but surely a large chunk of people developing insulin resistance are doing so because they eat much worse high glycaemic foods than Bananas.
89% were overweight or obese and 38% were physically inactive.
I dare say if you looked at the diets of those individuals, it wouldn't include many avocados' or bananas. I think you're splitting hairs.
89% were overweight or obese and 38% were physically inactive.
I dare say if you looked at the diets of those individuals, it wouldn't include many avocados' or bananas. I think you're splitting hairs.
Congratulations
per your edits, I don't disagree with you, but if you are in these metabolic states as nearly half of Americans are, there is a clear winner between the two and that's just a fact.
per your edits, I don't disagree with you, but if you are in these metabolic states as nearly half of Americans are, there is a clear winner between the two and that's just a fact.
I agree its of fact. However as per commentary above, if you do not have insulin resistance then eating either of the two does come down to taste preference, with both options being quite healthy foods when eaten in moderation.
Additionally, for those that do not have insulin resistance, eating either a Banana or Avocado is not going to put you into any health risks. Infact eating either of them as part of a balanced diet with exercise is likely to have positive health benefits.
I'm not American, however in my opinion, people by and large aren't waking up with insulin resistance due to no fault of their own. It is due to lack of exercise and chronic consumption of high GI foods that aren't eaten in combination with a relatively healthy diet.
Additionally, for those that do not have insulin resistance, eating either a Banana or Avocado is not going to put you into any health risks. Infact eating either of them as part of a balanced diet with exercise is likely to have positive health benefits.
I'm not American, however in my opinion, people by and large aren't waking up with insulin resistance due to no fault of their own. It is due to lack of exercise and chronic consumption of high GI foods that aren't eaten in combination with a relatively healthy diet.
Nearly half of Americans are IR or worse and the majority of them do not know it. Many Americans believe that bananas are a good source of potassium and do not know that avocados are a better source of potassium. Ergo, for nearly half of Americans, they should be eating avocados instead of bananas.
"they should be eating avocados instead of bananas"
Depends if the reason is you want the most potassium possible. If I want to eat something prior to exercising, I'd be better off eating the Banana than the Avocado. However I understand if you are keto, potentially not.
I'll rephrase your point. Avocado's are a better source of potassium for those with IR who are looking for foods richest in potassium.
Depends if the reason is you want the most potassium possible. If I want to eat something prior to exercising, I'd be better off eating the Banana than the Avocado. However I understand if you are keto, potentially not.
I'll rephrase your point. Avocado's are a better source of potassium for those with IR who are looking for foods richest in potassium.
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This is something people should talk about with their doctors. Diabetes (and pre-diabetes) is perfectly manageable if people are both aware of their condition and learn how to manage it.
For what it's worth, raw unprocessed fruits (including bananas) are usually just fine for people with (pre-)diabetes, but you should talk to your doctor about your diet as one of the pieces of managing your (pre-)diabetes.
For what it's worth, raw unprocessed fruits (including bananas) are usually just fine for people with (pre-)diabetes, but you should talk to your doctor about your diet as one of the pieces of managing your (pre-)diabetes.
Just to riff in your point: while there are plenty of smart people on this site with a solid understanding of the underlying science, but at the end of the day everyone needs to find a trusted medical professional and take his or her advice that’s tailored for their specific circumstances.
You are absolutely right, and yes bananas are obviously not that bad for you, but this is all to underscore the risks of a culture of eating primarily for taste preferences. The data show that a large portion of our population are completely ignorant of this.
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mathematical model - pseudoscience
I agree with parent (despite the downvotes), there's an ontological mismatch in the title. Mathematical constructs by themselves cannot reveal truths about the physical world. Instead: Mathematical model confirmed by experiment. Or: Old observations elucidated by mathematical model.
That's some nice philosophizing, but maybe you should read and understand the paper before dismissing it flippantly: https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/jo...
I'm not sure I understand, would you say Kepler's laws and the ideal gas law are pseudosience?