Tesla faces U.S. criminal probe over self-driving claims(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Tesla faces U.S. criminal probe over self-driving claims
https://www.reuters.com/legal/exclusive-tesla-faces-us-criminal-probe-over-self-driving-claims-sources-2022-10-26/
463 comments
A bit tangential but I just got a Tesla Model 3 and paid $6,000 extra for “enhanced autopilot” buying into all the marketing about it, and its one of the biggest regrets of my life and makes me unable to appreciate an otherwise great car. I just feel sick about it. The enhanced autopilot is buggy and doesn’t save me any effort. The summon and auto park don’t really work. I think it’s a scam. Other than that it’s a great car.
I always thought the Autopilot name and the claims about having all the equipment for FSD were basically fraudulent and Tesla would be liable for false advertisement. Never made the connection of Fraud => Someone driving negligent as a result => Negligent Homicide/Manslaughter but it seems solid and somewhat obvious once stated.
I met someone recently who told me they SLEPT on their way to work in their Tesla. On purpose. They bought the car specifically because they had a very long 2.5 hour commute.
The marketing for this stuff is absolutely liable and as much as I like what Tesla has done for electric cars in general we are one big, massive accident away from this all absolutely blowing up.
The marketing for this stuff is absolutely liable and as much as I like what Tesla has done for electric cars in general we are one big, massive accident away from this all absolutely blowing up.
> The Justice Department’s Autopilot probe is far from recommending any action partly because it is competing with two other DOJ investigations involving Tesla one of the sources said. Investigators still have much work to do and no decision on charges is imminent this source said.
This is definitely a thing that happens. If you are ever doing crimes, just be sure to commit a whole bunch of them so the DOJ has to move more slowly. It's a too-many-cooks-in-the-kitchen kind of thing.
This is definitely a thing that happens. If you are ever doing crimes, just be sure to commit a whole bunch of them so the DOJ has to move more slowly. It's a too-many-cooks-in-the-kitchen kind of thing.
Not so long ago, Andrej Karpathy, the ex-Director of AI at Tesla left the company.
I ask myself a couple of questions, if Tesla was to release in the near future, some game changer technology in the self-driving space and I was the face behind it, would I leave the company so other person could take the merit? Would I leave the company because I think they are going to push something that I consider dangerous to the public and I don't want to be the scapegoat?
I ask myself a couple of questions, if Tesla was to release in the near future, some game changer technology in the self-driving space and I was the face behind it, would I leave the company so other person could take the merit? Would I leave the company because I think they are going to push something that I consider dangerous to the public and I don't want to be the scapegoat?
I, as a software engineer, will never trust an autonomous vehicle that is not on rails. Even then, it better be a slow-ass train so I can jump off with minor injuries if anything goes awry.
I might trust a fully-open-sourced vehicle, produced in a manner which the software and hardware design and implementation are fully verified as error-free versus a simple-to-understand open-source model. That will never happen, though.
I might trust a fully-open-sourced vehicle, produced in a manner which the software and hardware design and implementation are fully verified as error-free versus a simple-to-understand open-source model. That will never happen, though.
So, much of this sounds like a question of just how much you can lie in your marketing material if you then take it all back in the click-through.
I'm curious how many times people have been refunded for the enhanced autopilot claiming a bait and switch. They believed the marketing materials purchased the car, and then discovered when they get it "hey not really".
But, I'm guessing what will hang them, is the question over whether people actually believed the warnings were real or just CYA, and then promptly treated it like a full "better than human" AI.
I'm curious how many times people have been refunded for the enhanced autopilot claiming a bait and switch. They believed the marketing materials purchased the car, and then discovered when they get it "hey not really".
But, I'm guessing what will hang them, is the question over whether people actually believed the warnings were real or just CYA, and then promptly treated it like a full "better than human" AI.
When I bought FSD it stated clearly it depended on technological and regulatory advances, so I’m not sure I get the argument that I was a victim of fraud.
Also, I haven’t seen it mentioned here, but the tech does exist and currently you have to demonstrate “safe” (according to their heuristics) driving to get access. I have access, and it more or less does the things they promised, far from perfect (in fact it makes lots of mistakes where I take over for safety), but I fail to see how they promised perfection. My interpretation of the “full” in full self driving was that it handles the full list of maneuvers they enumerated like obeying traffic control and making turns, which it does do today.
Also, I haven’t seen it mentioned here, but the tech does exist and currently you have to demonstrate “safe” (according to their heuristics) driving to get access. I have access, and it more or less does the things they promised, far from perfect (in fact it makes lots of mistakes where I take over for safety), but I fail to see how they promised perfection. My interpretation of the “full” in full self driving was that it handles the full list of maneuvers they enumerated like obeying traffic control and making turns, which it does do today.
Honestly surprised any of this made it past the legal department at Tesla. Any company I've worked at has always been super careful and conservative with the language you use to describe anything.
Musk/Tesla have been selling alpha quality at best and vaporware in reality FSD for a long time. Its never ever going to work as claimed. Its crap software that endangers other people on the road and routinely kills people and all they needed to do is add a stupid disclaimer and the magic 'beta'. Every few months Musk will lie that its 'done' and out at the end of the year, with outlandish nonsense claims like his robotaxi in 2016/17, his most recent one that you wont need a human driver.
Its a massive scam and fraud thats made them trillions, and its amazing they haven't been sued for it.
Its a massive scam and fraud thats made them trillions, and its amazing they haven't been sued for it.
I'll know when Tesla is actually taking these probes seriously when they finally take off the laughably deceptive video from https://www.tesla.com/autopilot.
Tldw it is a video that says the driver is only there for legal reasons, and it took them many takes to make the video.
That's been there for many many years and any time this topic comes up I check it and yup, still there.
Tldw it is a video that says the driver is only there for legal reasons, and it took them many takes to make the video.
That's been there for many many years and any time this topic comes up I check it and yup, still there.
I was told FSD cars was only 5 years away roughly 12 years ago.
While I understand the motivations for the investigation, and fully agree its an investigation worth conducting.
I dont think it actually has merit, at least not in the terms framed by the article.
In most circumstances it "probably is better than a human driver", not all circumstances, and not proven (hence probably).
But if LM can push the F35 as the best jet ever while it racks up a wreckage count to make the 737 Max jealous, claims made by Tesla arent even in the same ballpark....
It would be a real shame if we lose any chance of full self driving over a misunderstanding about the system being "not perfected yet"
I dont think it actually has merit, at least not in the terms framed by the article.
In most circumstances it "probably is better than a human driver", not all circumstances, and not proven (hence probably).
But if LM can push the F35 as the best jet ever while it racks up a wreckage count to make the 737 Max jealous, claims made by Tesla arent even in the same ballpark....
It would be a real shame if we lose any chance of full self driving over a misunderstanding about the system being "not perfected yet"
Autopilot is a fantastic, world leading technology. But the marketing of it was (and continues to be) nothing short of criminally negligent. There are over a dozen confirmed deaths at this point, directly attributable to the outright lies spewed by Elon and co. regarding its' capabilities.
We were able to ban lawn darts in the 80s because of a few isolated incidents. But the state of affairs we are in now is only possible due to the absurd level of regulatory capture we've reached in this country. I don't expect anything to change at this point.
We were able to ban lawn darts in the 80s because of a few isolated incidents. But the state of affairs we are in now is only possible due to the absurd level of regulatory capture we've reached in this country. I don't expect anything to change at this point.
AEB, lane departure warning, blind spot detection, parking assist I all understand. I understand the "wink wink, nudge nudge" reasons to buy systems like autopilot, blue cruise, toyota lane tracing, etc. What I don't get is the by-the-books reasons to buy it. What the hell value are you getting out of autopilot if you're actually keeping your hands on the wheel and your eyes on the road? I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm asking why the hell you're paying thousands of dollars to do it.
I've said this in the past but instead of the government just allowing auto-updates and what not, the AI needs to pass a driving test. Each version must be certified by some test. No, not the same test a human driver goes through. Something super rigourous that involves semis tipping over, bridges falling from above, babies crawling in the road, dogs, deer, rain, smoke, hail, snow, elephants, downed power lines. Maybe even a 10 year old kid running in front.
Something that all of the companies would go through, administered by the government (not waymo).
Something that all of the companies would go through, administered by the government (not waymo).
Because the number of variables, an experienced human driver has to be ready to make decisions that they can't specifically train for. What AI can reach that deep?
I once had a few seconds to choose between 1) a multi-vehicle collision at 60mph with oncoming vehicles in both lanes that had a steep up-hillside to their right (one was a gasoline tanker), and 2) getting my vehicle stopped on a two-foot shoulder with a long steep 45-degree down-hillside next to it (no guard rail). I would NOT have wanted computer assistance, thanks anyway.
I once had a few seconds to choose between 1) a multi-vehicle collision at 60mph with oncoming vehicles in both lanes that had a steep up-hillside to their right (one was a gasoline tanker), and 2) getting my vehicle stopped on a two-foot shoulder with a long steep 45-degree down-hillside next to it (no guard rail). I would NOT have wanted computer assistance, thanks anyway.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Tesla the electric car company is doing great. Tesla the FSD tech unicorn, is going to end in tears. I will not be surprised at all when some of the engineers on the AI team go to jail over this. Why the engineers? Because the executives almost always are able to afford high powered lawyers to avoid any serious consequences.
- "The Justice Department’s Autopilot probe is far from recommending any action partly because it is competing with two other DOJ investigations involving Tesla, one of the sources said. Investigators still have much work to do and no decision on charges is imminent, this source said."
- "The Justice Department may also face challenges in building its case, said the sources, because of Tesla’s warnings about overreliance on Autopilot."
How often do criminal defendants get to read the internal deliberations of their prosecuting office, and before they're even charged?
What a dysfunctional mess. This leak was unethical, unlawful, and unworthy of the gravitas of an office whose work puts people in prison.
- "The Justice Department may also face challenges in building its case, said the sources, because of Tesla’s warnings about overreliance on Autopilot."
How often do criminal defendants get to read the internal deliberations of their prosecuting office, and before they're even charged?
What a dysfunctional mess. This leak was unethical, unlawful, and unworthy of the gravitas of an office whose work puts people in prison.
My commute is 80 miles each way - I would have left that job long ago if I didn't have "autopilot" reducing the mental effort of the drive.YMMV
This is after last week Reuters claimed that Elon Musk was under a federal investigation, which the White House later denied. (Almost no one reported the denial.) I'd wait for more information before jumping to conclusions.
Between the regular pro-Russian reporting and this and other issues I've found Reuters to be a highly unreliable source recently. They're very hit and miss.
Important also to look at the stock market. There's zero blip on the stock ticker from this news, which means that basically no one who owns decent amounts of TSLA stock care about this. Which generally means that they know something that's not in this article.
Between the regular pro-Russian reporting and this and other issues I've found Reuters to be a highly unreliable source recently. They're very hit and miss.
Important also to look at the stock market. There's zero blip on the stock ticker from this news, which means that basically no one who owns decent amounts of TSLA stock care about this. Which generally means that they know something that's not in this article.
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IMHO this is long overdue! Many people have died who relied on their Tesla's to drive them to work (sometimes even taking a nap while it drove).
And Tesla's claim that "Full Self Driving" is merely a phrase that doesn't describe the capabilities of its software is weak and criminally deceitful.
Tesla needs to be held accountable for this.
And Tesla's claim that "Full Self Driving" is merely a phrase that doesn't describe the capabilities of its software is weak and criminally deceitful.
Tesla needs to be held accountable for this.
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Probably better off with https://comma.ai
What bothers me is that Tesla is putting up the blame to the drivers not using it as instructed. This bothers me so deeply.
People can and will fail to follow instructions. You have to design around this. If you don't have failsafe mechanisms, don't ship.
Tesla's not taking enough responsibility.
People can and will fail to follow instructions. You have to design around this. If you don't have failsafe mechanisms, don't ship.
Tesla's not taking enough responsibility.
I haven't seen anyone note the timing of this:
Musk is buying Twitter today or tomorrow, and he'll likely need to sell more Tesla stock unless he can get additional financing. This news will obviously depress Tesla stock. The timing is hardly inconspicuous.
Musk is buying Twitter today or tomorrow, and he'll likely need to sell more Tesla stock unless he can get additional financing. This news will obviously depress Tesla stock. The timing is hardly inconspicuous.
I just doesn't get it, how it is legal to beta test self driving cars on public roads?
"hands free driving" should probably investigate
https://www.gmc.com/connectivity-technology/super-cruise
They should probably get a head start on the Tesla Bot investigation as well