Ask HN: How common is a 4-day work week in our industry?
7 comments
I found that 3-4 days/week was optimal solo and as a small team. With larger teams, 5 days makes more sense to cater for all the meetings, code reviews, training.
It's probably very difficult to sell it as a discount. That implies 20% less work and the economics don't add up for that. That's 20% more people they have to hire, more managers, more complexity. Startups need to get things done faster because they have other fixed costs, and a trillion dollar company doesn't mind paying a little extra.
The nature of the work also means that people who put in the hours need to work less. They've made the mistakes, they make more accurate estimates, they know which theories don't work, they can debug more instinctively. They also have more battle tested code, simpler code, templates, hotkeys and macros. Managers are happy to hire someone who gets the sprint done by Wednesday then slacks off - but that can't be part of the contract, and it often involves hiring someone who has put in the hours.
I think the best way to go about it is agreeing to complete as much work, and arguing that 4 day weeks are the most efficient way to do this. Basically the industry tries to hire a senior who does as much work as 5 juniors for twice the salary, so this isn't an unrealistic idea.
It's probably very difficult to sell it as a discount. That implies 20% less work and the economics don't add up for that. That's 20% more people they have to hire, more managers, more complexity. Startups need to get things done faster because they have other fixed costs, and a trillion dollar company doesn't mind paying a little extra.
The nature of the work also means that people who put in the hours need to work less. They've made the mistakes, they make more accurate estimates, they know which theories don't work, they can debug more instinctively. They also have more battle tested code, simpler code, templates, hotkeys and macros. Managers are happy to hire someone who gets the sprint done by Wednesday then slacks off - but that can't be part of the contract, and it often involves hiring someone who has put in the hours.
I think the best way to go about it is agreeing to complete as much work, and arguing that 4 day weeks are the most efficient way to do this. Basically the industry tries to hire a senior who does as much work as 5 juniors for twice the salary, so this isn't an unrealistic idea.
Yeah, it's been important to sell it as a 20% cost savings and make it clear that you don't get 20% less output, but instead the same output with usually increased quality, because the person is more motivated, better rested, more focused etc. Usually it shows, but, again, takes a lot of work to get it set up in the first place.
Not that usual but getting more common thankfully. I wrote about this here, check the graphs half way down:
https://4dayweek.io/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-the-4-day-wor...
I too still find it weird why more companies don't offer at least a 4 day week @ 80% salary
https://4dayweek.io/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-the-4-day-wor...
I too still find it weird why more companies don't offer at least a 4 day week @ 80% salary
Awesome resource! Thanks for making and posting it :)
The biggest resistance I get is around this "part time/full time" divide. They basically think that 4 days = part-time, which usually means a temp or entry-level person. They argue that the work isn't the kind of work that should be classified as part-time. It takes lots of convincing to say that this is still full-time.
I've been thinking of writing some sort of guide around all the various arguments I get and ways I've implemented it at previous employers...
The biggest resistance I get is around this "part time/full time" divide. They basically think that 4 days = part-time, which usually means a temp or entry-level person. They argue that the work isn't the kind of work that should be classified as part-time. It takes lots of convincing to say that this is still full-time.
I've been thinking of writing some sort of guide around all the various arguments I get and ways I've implemented it at previous employers...
I believe it's getting more and more common, but it's far from a regular thing, at least in the UK. I see it in Linkedin job postings, some people at may company have adopted it (including myself), I read about the cultural shift in the national news etc. It's definitely happening more than before.
I can’t imagine any company I’ve ever worked for going for this. If everyone else is working 5 days a week, you need to be as well because you’re a knowledge center that would be missing otherwise. Yes, this happens when you’re on vacation or out sick as well, but that’s temporary, not something they have to think about and plan for every week. The mental strain there against their asses in seats mindset would just be too much.
Popular in Austria, certain parts of Germany and Switzerland, based on what I have seen. Probably applies to whole of western Europe as well. The progressive tax rates we have here really discourage from working overtime.
I don’t personally know anyone who has opted for this kind of 4 day week (usually it’s 4x10 hours, not just a 1/5th reduction in work), but I feel like the overall attitude of “life, not money” permeates Europe and countries heavily influenced by it (particularly Canada, Australia, and NZ).
Don’t forget that a lot (most? all?) EU countries also have strict rules on work times - something akin to x hours off between shifts, shifts of no more than x hours long, at least x shifts off per week, etc.
Don’t forget that a lot (most? all?) EU countries also have strict rules on work times - something akin to x hours off between shifts, shifts of no more than x hours long, at least x shifts off per week, etc.
When you talk about 4 day work week do you mean 4x8 hours or 4x10 hours? In my country we have companies that have both solutions.
I mean 4x8, but I guess 4x10 is also similar. Usually I negotiate for 4x8, and because it's 20% fewer hours, I accept a 20% pay cut, but I guess the 4x10 arrangement wouldn't involve a pay cut since it's the same number of hours.
in the Netherlands, the 4 day work week is the standard when you begin to get kids.
The day is continue and you work 9h. It makes a 36h week.
Huh, this makes sense. I work in Denmark and the 'standard' package is centered around weeks, so taking less than 1-week units of parental leave is a little difficult.
I make everything sound like it's economics while discussing it, but I actually get 1000x more enjoyment out of my work and non-work lives under this time-split. There's some stigma around 'lazy' and 'work ethic' that I usually have to get around, but these are the ideal parameters for me to produce the most sustainably, and keep motivation up sustainably. So I figured this is just my weird quirk... valuing free time over money so much that I do something about it.
Recently, though, I've been interviewing candidates for some open tech positions and found a surprising number of them asking for the same thing in some form or another.
So I'm starting to wonder:
* Are there lots and lots of us that value free time over money, and there's just such a tight cultural stigma (even in our high-earning industry) around discussing it, so no one does?
* Are there lots and lots of us that have already instituted something like this with our employers/clients under some sort of "keep this between us" understanding? One of the larger companies I worked for, I was told to tell everyone that my day off was a day of 'focused work-from-home' out of fear that others might ask for something similar.
I'm just wondering what your experiences are, and if this is a weird niche quirk, or actually a cultural shift :)