I have a very religious acquaintance that lives in New York. Knowing my libertarian political stance and my extensive knowledge of the Bible he asked for my opinion on the recent decision in New York to allow Gay Marriage. Below is the reply I sent him. I thought I’d share it here because I think a lot of the non-religious people who frequent HN will get into a debate about this at some point in the next few weeks. I’ve found most HN type people tend to argue against religion in these debates which is ineffective. You aren’t going to convince a Christian to stop being Christian by telling him you think the Bible is unrealistic. So I post this here in the hopes of giving you some arguments that would actually hold weight with a religious person.
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The first thing you should know is the Bible’s prohibition on Homosexuality is over blown. There are basically three points people use to justify the idea that God is anti-Gay. They are…
1. Sodom and Gomorrah – This story has been co-opted as anti-gay but it’s really about heathenism. The heathens come to Lot’s door demanding to have sex with the male angels. To prevent this Lot offers them his virgin daughters. This, to me, indicates the mob wasn’t gay they were simply people who would screw anything that moved. Lot is obviously willing to be physically assaulted to protect the angels since the mob attacks him and he fights back (and is eventually saved by the angels). So if they were just Gay wouldn’t he have offered himself?
People see this story as anti-gay because the mob turns down Lot’s daughters in favor of the male angels but this could just as easily be related to them being “new” (as the new girl is school gets all the boys’ attention even if she is only as attractive as the other girls). Or, as I personally believe, it’s just a function of the story in that the evil mob is obsessed with assaulting the righteous angels. Biblical stories, true or not, are fables designed to convey a message and the message of Sodom and Gomorrah is clearly good vs. evil.
But again the lesson is against heathenism not homosexuality.
2. God’s prohibition of homosexuality in Leviticus 17 & 20 – The important point here is context. This prohibition is made while God is giving Moses rules that the Jews who left Egypt must live by. These rules included everything from not eating meat from dead animals to not having sex with your daughter. But the one thing all the rules have in common is they are designed to promote the continued existence of a small group of Jews (God’s chosen people). Eating meat from a dead Animal promotes disease, having sex with your daughter causes genetic defects and being gay in 4000 b.c. prevents reproduction. So these rules were given specifically to the Jews in that time frame to ensure their continued existence as a group and weren’t necessarily meant for all time. This is why, to give an everyday example, most Jews and Christians don’t observe kosher laws in modern times.
Now some will dispute the above statement because God’s punishment for being gay was death in Leviticus 20. But this again ignores the context. That area of scripture also prescribes death for cursing your mother and father, adultery, sleeping with your daughter-in-law and so on. If you read the whole passage it becomes clear God prescribed death for any action that would be caused by a hard to control urge. This is understandable when you consider the group he was talking to which were essentially roaming nomads who had lived as slaves for their entire lives (and as such couldn’t have been the most sophisticated). Prescribing death seems harsh in our modern times but may have been the only way to get the rather savage Jews of that time to practice impulse control.
3. Various New Testament Passages against homosexuality – The important point here is Jesus never spoke about homosexuality. The entirety of the New Testament’s preaching against homosexuality comes from St. Paul. But two points are important there. First, St. Paul never met Jesus, never had a conversation with Jesus and knows no more about Jesus than you do from reading the New Testament. Second, Paul’s opinion is not in itself divine. As Paul was a Jew before accepting Christ any prohibition Paul spoke about was derived from the previous two points of the Old Testament meaning if he was in error about their meaning his preaching against homosexuality is in error as well.
So I don’t think you have much to worry about as far as God’s disapproval of the State of New York. That said let me throw you one more curve ball. While I don’t think God has a problem with the law in New York I do think he has a problem with the gay folks celebrating it. In fact, I think he’d be appalled. Let me explain…
In The book of Samuel the people of Israel come to the prophet Samuel and demand a King be appointed over them. At such a request Samuel feels rejected and prays to God. God replied by saying this…
“Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me”
God considered the people wanting a King as a rejection of him. Because God is all about individual freedom. God prescribes very few actual laws to modern people (essentially the 10 Commandments and the Golden Rule). God’s model given in the bible is that people act morally and govern their own behavior and all will be well.
Read the message God told Samuel to deliver to the people wanting a King…
“This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day”
In other words God, is a Libertarian.
So while I don’t think God would have a problem with Gay Marriage in New York I do think God would have a problem with gay people celebrating the fact that their government masters have allowed them to get married. That somehow their love was incomplete until the government decided to approve of it.
-----
The first thing you should know is the Bible’s prohibition on Homosexuality is over blown. There are basically three points people use to justify the idea that God is anti-Gay. They are…
1. Sodom and Gomorrah – This story has been co-opted as anti-gay but it’s really about heathenism. The heathens come to Lot’s door demanding to have sex with the male angels. To prevent this Lot offers them his virgin daughters. This, to me, indicates the mob wasn’t gay they were simply people who would screw anything that moved. Lot is obviously willing to be physically assaulted to protect the angels since the mob attacks him and he fights back (and is eventually saved by the angels). So if they were just Gay wouldn’t he have offered himself?
People see this story as anti-gay because the mob turns down Lot’s daughters in favor of the male angels but this could just as easily be related to them being “new” (as the new girl is school gets all the boys’ attention even if she is only as attractive as the other girls). Or, as I personally believe, it’s just a function of the story in that the evil mob is obsessed with assaulting the righteous angels. Biblical stories, true or not, are fables designed to convey a message and the message of Sodom and Gomorrah is clearly good vs. evil.
But again the lesson is against heathenism not homosexuality.
2. God’s prohibition of homosexuality in Leviticus 17 & 20 – The important point here is context. This prohibition is made while God is giving Moses rules that the Jews who left Egypt must live by. These rules included everything from not eating meat from dead animals to not having sex with your daughter. But the one thing all the rules have in common is they are designed to promote the continued existence of a small group of Jews (God’s chosen people). Eating meat from a dead Animal promotes disease, having sex with your daughter causes genetic defects and being gay in 4000 b.c. prevents reproduction. So these rules were given specifically to the Jews in that time frame to ensure their continued existence as a group and weren’t necessarily meant for all time. This is why, to give an everyday example, most Jews and Christians don’t observe kosher laws in modern times.
Now some will dispute the above statement because God’s punishment for being gay was death in Leviticus 20. But this again ignores the context. That area of scripture also prescribes death for cursing your mother and father, adultery, sleeping with your daughter-in-law and so on. If you read the whole passage it becomes clear God prescribed death for any action that would be caused by a hard to control urge. This is understandable when you consider the group he was talking to which were essentially roaming nomads who had lived as slaves for their entire lives (and as such couldn’t have been the most sophisticated). Prescribing death seems harsh in our modern times but may have been the only way to get the rather savage Jews of that time to practice impulse control.
3. Various New Testament Passages against homosexuality – The important point here is Jesus never spoke about homosexuality. The entirety of the New Testament’s preaching against homosexuality comes from St. Paul. But two points are important there. First, St. Paul never met Jesus, never had a conversation with Jesus and knows no more about Jesus than you do from reading the New Testament. Second, Paul’s opinion is not in itself divine. As Paul was a Jew before accepting Christ any prohibition Paul spoke about was derived from the previous two points of the Old Testament meaning if he was in error about their meaning his preaching against homosexuality is in error as well.
So I don’t think you have much to worry about as far as God’s disapproval of the State of New York. That said let me throw you one more curve ball. While I don’t think God has a problem with the law in New York I do think he has a problem with the gay folks celebrating it. In fact, I think he’d be appalled. Let me explain…
In The book of Samuel the people of Israel come to the prophet Samuel and demand a King be appointed over them. At such a request Samuel feels rejected and prays to God. God replied by saying this…
“Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me”
God considered the people wanting a King as a rejection of him. Because God is all about individual freedom. God prescribes very few actual laws to modern people (essentially the 10 Commandments and the Golden Rule). God’s model given in the bible is that people act morally and govern their own behavior and all will be well.
Read the message God told Samuel to deliver to the people wanting a King…
“This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day”
In other words God, is a Libertarian.
So while I don’t think God would have a problem with Gay Marriage in New York I do think God would have a problem with gay people celebrating the fact that their government masters have allowed them to get married. That somehow their love was incomplete until the government decided to approve of it.
It’s something to think about.