They Know What Boys Want(nymag.com)
nymag.com
They Know What Boys Want
http://nymag.com/news/features/70977/
10 comments
The whole environment of high school has been broken for many years. We are seeing technology collide with societies gradual raising of the age of adulthood combined with a school system designed to create factory workers for Ford.
I'm not that old, when I was in high school ND allowed people to get a driver's license at 14. Now we have calls to raise the age to 16 or even 18. I have heard the argument "Well, 14 isn't as mature as it used to be". That is crap, and I can see the day when 21 isn't even old enough to be out on your own.
It isn't the technology, bullying, or sexting that is the core problem. It is the environment when society is trying very hard to repress biology and thousand of years of development. It isn't working and is causing serious problems.
I'm not that old, when I was in high school ND allowed people to get a driver's license at 14. Now we have calls to raise the age to 16 or even 18. I have heard the argument "Well, 14 isn't as mature as it used to be". That is crap, and I can see the day when 21 isn't even old enough to be out on your own.
It isn't the technology, bullying, or sexting that is the core problem. It is the environment when society is trying very hard to repress biology and thousand of years of development. It isn't working and is causing serious problems.
It seems like NYMag knows what men want too, was there any need for them to have a picture of a model pretending to be youger than she really is on each page?
Was there going to be anyone reading the content thinking "so you've described this pose, but without seeing the 14 year old in question I can't really judge how bad it was"?
Or... was it just a nice excuse to give readers the snapshots they so badly desire.
Was there going to be anyone reading the content thinking "so you've described this pose, but without seeing the 14 year old in question I can't really judge how bad it was"?
Or... was it just a nice excuse to give readers the snapshots they so badly desire.
A disturbing piece for HN parents about the coming of age for children.
Even though you know the Internet and technology has all progressed since we were kids, it is still disturbing nonetheless.
The hacking solution to help our youth is unlikely to come from 0's and 1's, but a hacker that could figure out how to address this--with 0's and 1's or otherwise--would be rewarded with more than gold and silver, they would be a hero.
It would be too much for a single person to figure out or a team for that matter. We could easily say that the solution is parenting, but I believe in many cases that isn't enough.
Our current social dynamic because of the Internet and technology combined is changing everything from bullying to coming of age to social skills and the problems have been coming to a head for years but only recently receiving so much of the spotlight, leaving it anyones guess what the future repercussions could be.
Even though you know the Internet and technology has all progressed since we were kids, it is still disturbing nonetheless.
The hacking solution to help our youth is unlikely to come from 0's and 1's, but a hacker that could figure out how to address this--with 0's and 1's or otherwise--would be rewarded with more than gold and silver, they would be a hero.
It would be too much for a single person to figure out or a team for that matter. We could easily say that the solution is parenting, but I believe in many cases that isn't enough.
Our current social dynamic because of the Internet and technology combined is changing everything from bullying to coming of age to social skills and the problems have been coming to a head for years but only recently receiving so much of the spotlight, leaving it anyones guess what the future repercussions could be.
I don't consider this a problem.
The internet has changed our social dynamic, sure. It's given people anonymity, it's enabled them to be either exceptionally private or to effectively broadcast themselves (and sometimes they lose control over this, if they are not careful: a problem definitely heightened by the internet). It's removed entry barriers to conversation and enabled people to connect to others a lot easier. In my mind this has just meant that the value of (online) communication has decreased.
This might have a few effects. I know it makes people feel safer about exploring their sexuality (instead of having to find somebody they trust, they can instead experiment relatively safely with nobody watching them and just cut off the other person if they've had enough.) I guess this makes people act more cloak and dagger about the people they talk to, but that's surely just how life is when you're young and at school? Maybe people will trust each other less now. This isn't bad; it'll just make those real trust-based relationships that you find so much more meaningful. And, of course, pornography can make us a little more sexually violent but assuming we're not raping people is that really such a bad thing...
I think as long as it doesn't all become a game and people learn to love each other it'll all be okay.
The internet has changed our social dynamic, sure. It's given people anonymity, it's enabled them to be either exceptionally private or to effectively broadcast themselves (and sometimes they lose control over this, if they are not careful: a problem definitely heightened by the internet). It's removed entry barriers to conversation and enabled people to connect to others a lot easier. In my mind this has just meant that the value of (online) communication has decreased.
This might have a few effects. I know it makes people feel safer about exploring their sexuality (instead of having to find somebody they trust, they can instead experiment relatively safely with nobody watching them and just cut off the other person if they've had enough.) I guess this makes people act more cloak and dagger about the people they talk to, but that's surely just how life is when you're young and at school? Maybe people will trust each other less now. This isn't bad; it'll just make those real trust-based relationships that you find so much more meaningful. And, of course, pornography can make us a little more sexually violent but assuming we're not raping people is that really such a bad thing...
I think as long as it doesn't all become a game and people learn to love each other it'll all be okay.
How is the fact that our children (ok, my young siblings) are coming up in a world where bullying happens in a field vastly different from the playground not a problem?
I certainly can't pass on my experience of how to deal with cyber bullies, I don't have any(oh, but flamewars I understand), and I suspect that the entire newest generation is going to have to invent those protocols themselves. That's horribly unfortunate. When children kill themselves because of it, that's horrifying.
I certainly can't pass on my experience of how to deal with cyber bullies, I don't have any(oh, but flamewars I understand), and I suspect that the entire newest generation is going to have to invent those protocols themselves. That's horribly unfortunate. When children kill themselves because of it, that's horrifying.
You're talking as if children are killing themselves over internet bullying left and right. The truth is this almost never happens and when it does is almost certainly bullying from the real world spilling over into the virtual.
The internet has opened a lot of doors and changed some of the rules, but I don't believe it has turned the playing field upside down as sensationalist news articles would like us to believe.
If anything, as the web has matured as a technology and as a part of life things are probably getting better, since the rules for how kids need to behave on the web are becoming part of the culture and not something their "pushy parents" are trying to convince them of.
Notice how the interviewed girls talk about giving false personal information and about how they promptly cut off inappropriate contact as if it's the most obvious thing in the world. I'm not sure this was the situation 10 or 15 years ago...
The internet has opened a lot of doors and changed some of the rules, but I don't believe it has turned the playing field upside down as sensationalist news articles would like us to believe.
If anything, as the web has matured as a technology and as a part of life things are probably getting better, since the rules for how kids need to behave on the web are becoming part of the culture and not something their "pushy parents" are trying to convince them of.
Notice how the interviewed girls talk about giving false personal information and about how they promptly cut off inappropriate contact as if it's the most obvious thing in the world. I'm not sure this was the situation 10 or 15 years ago...
Bullying isn't solved on the playground. At least online the perpetrators document their aggression. Not that I believe that will solve anything, thought it might be fun to name-and-shame them.
Also, on the playground a bully will enjoy power by oppressing others in full view of their classmates. Authority and fear go hand in hand. Anonymity and the internet might make it easier to bully others but it also removes the pay-off. Somebody that bullies others online is wasting their time. If you do it, it's not a stretch for somebody else to point out that you're a bit of a 'loser'.
It's sad if children kill themselves because of this though. I've heard awful stories of people pretending to be a girlfriend/boyfriend, gaining trust and then humiliating the other person. You would have to be a little naive to fall for that but I don't think that's a lesson anybody should ever have to learn. However, I think that's an exception, kids will learn to not trust so easily in the virtual environment and to carefully control their virtual image.
Also, on the playground a bully will enjoy power by oppressing others in full view of their classmates. Authority and fear go hand in hand. Anonymity and the internet might make it easier to bully others but it also removes the pay-off. Somebody that bullies others online is wasting their time. If you do it, it's not a stretch for somebody else to point out that you're a bit of a 'loser'.
It's sad if children kill themselves because of this though. I've heard awful stories of people pretending to be a girlfriend/boyfriend, gaining trust and then humiliating the other person. You would have to be a little naive to fall for that but I don't think that's a lesson anybody should ever have to learn. However, I think that's an exception, kids will learn to not trust so easily in the virtual environment and to carefully control their virtual image.
This is something of a case in point for my argument that we really don't know how to deal with it..its brand new, and works on different dynamics than playground bullying.
The methods of cyber-bullying I've encountered doesn't involve a lone 'loser' barraging someone, but entire groups of quickly organized cliques continually harassing people.
And to be clear, they're not limited to terminal based Internet connections anymore, or even the Internet. A phone number is just as good as a chat account, and much less secure.
The methods of cyber-bullying I've encountered doesn't involve a lone 'loser' barraging someone, but entire groups of quickly organized cliques continually harassing people.
And to be clear, they're not limited to terminal based Internet connections anymore, or even the Internet. A phone number is just as good as a chat account, and much less secure.
Cliques of children harassing other children! What a new and amazing discovery! This is unprecedented! </sarcasm>
The first step toward a 'hacking solution' would be to define the problem clearly. What are you trying to solve?
The problem is that everything you do on the internet will haunt you forever, even after your death, and the kids don't realize this.
The problem here is not the internet. I mean, this is the same as if a kid found a gun and shoot their best friend while playing, and this happened way before internet existed.
Knowing things is better than not knowing things.
Maybe it's good that I don't want to have children.
Maybe it's good that I don't want to have children.
I've never been more thankful for the 2-3kb/s upstream bandwidth of my childhood. No way we were swapping naked photos of each other.
I guess digital cameras or webcams were not that available either. I am sure than having to take the picture, having it developed at the camera store and then scanning gave more time to think twice. Plus had a much less "private" feel.
Perhaps I shouldn't be reading HN at work, but that was way more NSFW than I thought it would be.
I'm 24, and my wife is pregnant with our first.
Reading this article blew my mind. I grew up with AIM, ICQ, MSN Chat, whatever. I had a cameraphone when I was 17. I didn't see any of this, though.
I'm not sure whether I'm more scared to have a girl that has to live in a world like this, or to have a boy who may be like the guys in that story. I hate both outcomes.
I know many will argue that pornography isn't a big deal, or that the internet hasn't changed much. But as a parent who doesn't want to raise a daughter in that kind of environment, or a son who encourages it, what can I do? What would you do?
Is homeschooling the answer? I don't think so. I am very interested in seeing my kids develop socially in ways that they just can't do at home. Living in a small town? I think that's worse, because there's nothing else to do besides sex, get drunk, and do drugs. Shutting off the internet in the home? Seems unrealistic, but it is necessary?
I know, what I'm saying probably makes me look insane to many of you. But for those who are dealing with this with their kids now, what are you seeing? What should a future-parent strive to do?
Reading this article blew my mind. I grew up with AIM, ICQ, MSN Chat, whatever. I had a cameraphone when I was 17. I didn't see any of this, though.
I'm not sure whether I'm more scared to have a girl that has to live in a world like this, or to have a boy who may be like the guys in that story. I hate both outcomes.
I know many will argue that pornography isn't a big deal, or that the internet hasn't changed much. But as a parent who doesn't want to raise a daughter in that kind of environment, or a son who encourages it, what can I do? What would you do?
Is homeschooling the answer? I don't think so. I am very interested in seeing my kids develop socially in ways that they just can't do at home. Living in a small town? I think that's worse, because there's nothing else to do besides sex, get drunk, and do drugs. Shutting off the internet in the home? Seems unrealistic, but it is necessary?
I know, what I'm saying probably makes me look insane to many of you. But for those who are dealing with this with their kids now, what are you seeing? What should a future-parent strive to do?
Please edit this post and mark it as NSFW.
The printer-friendly link looks almost exactly like a default Readability view: http://nymag.com/print/?/news/features/70977/
I wonder if Arc90 is working with them or if they just took the good idea and reused it?
I wonder if Arc90 is working with them or if they just took the good idea and reused it?
I never know what to say about stuff like this. My kids are 21 and 23 and have been online for years. They have never had issues with nude photos, bullying, and so on. It does not have to be some huge issue. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
I will note that my kids were homeschooled and the bullying described in the article apparently revolved around this girl's real life social circle from school -- someone she went on an actual date with who spread rumors as a form of vengeance when she didn't put out. On homeschooling lists, there is fairly often discussion about how schools have a "lord of the flies" social dynamic. From my perspective, the incident in question is rooted in that issue, not in the internet per se.
I will also note that the photos in the article, which are described as re-creations of actual photos found online, all show what look to me like very upscale bedrooms that are a cluttered disaster. The settings suggest to me a home where the parents value material things overly much and try to "dote" on their kids by showering them with money and things in place of time and attention. I never had the kind of matching decor and such shown in the photos. But I did grow up with a garden out back, home-cooked meals, and parents helping me with my homework. And my bedroom never looked like the cluttered disaster depicted consistently throughout the photos. My room got cleaned and picked up.
My sons and I laugh at the idea of them being able to get away with some of the stunts we hear about or get into trouble without me knowing. First of all, I was there so much that I would have known what they were up to -- they couldn't have disappeared for hours on end without an explanation and no one noticing. And second of all, I didn't have rebellious teens because there was nothing to rebel against. I think that's an important detail.
I will note that my kids were homeschooled and the bullying described in the article apparently revolved around this girl's real life social circle from school -- someone she went on an actual date with who spread rumors as a form of vengeance when she didn't put out. On homeschooling lists, there is fairly often discussion about how schools have a "lord of the flies" social dynamic. From my perspective, the incident in question is rooted in that issue, not in the internet per se.
I will also note that the photos in the article, which are described as re-creations of actual photos found online, all show what look to me like very upscale bedrooms that are a cluttered disaster. The settings suggest to me a home where the parents value material things overly much and try to "dote" on their kids by showering them with money and things in place of time and attention. I never had the kind of matching decor and such shown in the photos. But I did grow up with a garden out back, home-cooked meals, and parents helping me with my homework. And my bedroom never looked like the cluttered disaster depicted consistently throughout the photos. My room got cleaned and picked up.
My sons and I laugh at the idea of them being able to get away with some of the stunts we hear about or get into trouble without me knowing. First of all, I was there so much that I would have known what they were up to -- they couldn't have disappeared for hours on end without an explanation and no one noticing. And second of all, I didn't have rebellious teens because there was nothing to rebel against. I think that's an important detail.
> I didn't have rebellious teens because there was nothing to rebel against.
It's not "free reign" but "free rein": http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/reign.html
Hmmm. I always thought that 'free reign' made sense in that it was like self-governance with no restrictions.
I always kind of felt like the two were interchangeable. :-D But then I pronounced "facade" as "fake-aid" for years and years. My mind seems to like to blend and overlap two concepts like that.
A) I anticipated problems and taught them "wisdom" before the issue came up so they wouldn't be stumbling around doing stupid, destructive stuff.
B) I'm not a rejecting, judgmental, controlling, authoritarian kind of parent. So there isn't anything to rebel against. For example, when my oldest would say he wanted to play video games for a living when he grew up, I would say "I don't think that's a realistic career goal. But don't let my lack of vision stop you. Feel free to prove me wrong." So he never felt compelled to go make scads of money as a competitive gamer just so he could throw it in my face. He was free to have his idea of what a career looked like evolve without making it a power struggle with his mom.
My kids are very well behaved, ironically because I never required it. On the one hand, I imagine it would take many, many words to adequately explain (and maybe some day I will get back to developing the parenting site I own). On the other hand, I also feel like there really isn't anything to say. Just love and accept your kids. No big. (And work on your own crap. Ninety nine percent of the time, if kids are a-holes, they are just reflecting demons in the parental subconscious. I spent a lifetime hunting down personal demons instead of kicking the crap out of my kids for being reflections of my personal demons.)
B) I'm not a rejecting, judgmental, controlling, authoritarian kind of parent. So there isn't anything to rebel against. For example, when my oldest would say he wanted to play video games for a living when he grew up, I would say "I don't think that's a realistic career goal. But don't let my lack of vision stop you. Feel free to prove me wrong." So he never felt compelled to go make scads of money as a competitive gamer just so he could throw it in my face. He was free to have his idea of what a career looked like evolve without making it a power struggle with his mom.
My kids are very well behaved, ironically because I never required it. On the one hand, I imagine it would take many, many words to adequately explain (and maybe some day I will get back to developing the parenting site I own). On the other hand, I also feel like there really isn't anything to say. Just love and accept your kids. No big. (And work on your own crap. Ninety nine percent of the time, if kids are a-holes, they are just reflecting demons in the parental subconscious. I spent a lifetime hunting down personal demons instead of kicking the crap out of my kids for being reflections of my personal demons.)
I just want to add another voice to this. Really, reading this, you sound very much like my parents. I'm a 21-year-old home school and now college alumnus and I've been thinking some of these same things.
It's not that my parents gave completely free reign, it just that rather than actively directing everything, they backed off somewhat and left a lot of direction up to me. It's not that there weren't rules, it's just that the rules were reasonable and reasonably explained. Of course there were disagreements and children being childish, but there was also respect of their authority, which I think is something horribly lacking in kids today.
It's not that my parents gave completely free reign, it just that rather than actively directing everything, they backed off somewhat and left a lot of direction up to me. It's not that there weren't rules, it's just that the rules were reasonable and reasonably explained. Of course there were disagreements and children being childish, but there was also respect of their authority, which I think is something horribly lacking in kids today.
Any 'rules' my kids had were rooted in reality, not in mom's neurotic personal crap. "Don't run out into traffic" wasn't some "Because I won't love you anymore/what will the neighbors think?/how can you embarrass me this way???" kind of rule. It was a "because cars will hit you and maim or kill you" rule.
Two days before my 2nd child was born, my then 2 1/2 year old stood between me and his father, each of us holding one of his hands, and was told "don't cross the road without us". Being a bright, curious, strong-headed kid, this meant he promptly pulled away from two adults and dashed out into the road just to see why we saying that. He came so close to being hit by a car that he cut his finger on the side of it (well, he was hit by a car, but only his finger). The driver likely had no idea how close he came to tragedy that day. My son was so short, I don't think the driver ever saw him. I spent the next year standing on the side of the road for up to 20 minutes (in the heat, the snow, the rain) waiting for my oldest son to conclude it was now safe to cross. He needed to learn to use his own judgment to safely cross the road.
I raised my kids with an eye towards producing functional adults who could make their own decisions. That often meant putting up with inconveniences so they could internalize valuable decision-making rubrics instead of simply doing as they were told -- which really doesn't work. Even assuming I had perfect judgment (which I don't), what happens when I am not around to tell them what to do (like at daycare or school or after they grow up and move out)?
Two days before my 2nd child was born, my then 2 1/2 year old stood between me and his father, each of us holding one of his hands, and was told "don't cross the road without us". Being a bright, curious, strong-headed kid, this meant he promptly pulled away from two adults and dashed out into the road just to see why we saying that. He came so close to being hit by a car that he cut his finger on the side of it (well, he was hit by a car, but only his finger). The driver likely had no idea how close he came to tragedy that day. My son was so short, I don't think the driver ever saw him. I spent the next year standing on the side of the road for up to 20 minutes (in the heat, the snow, the rain) waiting for my oldest son to conclude it was now safe to cross. He needed to learn to use his own judgment to safely cross the road.
I raised my kids with an eye towards producing functional adults who could make their own decisions. That often meant putting up with inconveniences so they could internalize valuable decision-making rubrics instead of simply doing as they were told -- which really doesn't work. Even assuming I had perfect judgment (which I don't), what happens when I am not around to tell them what to do (like at daycare or school or after they grow up and move out)?
[deleted]
Ah, Mz, this is the point. Glad you commented. Crazy that at 21 and 23 you feel they were "kids" (or still are in your eyes I am sure, lol) just yesterday.
Now, setting aside some things I personally see as an advantage, which you should be proud of, like home schooling, let's keep it the coming of age argument and also strip the parental argument out for a second (even though I agree that it is a huuuge factor).
Your children were at this age 10 years ago. What has changed in 10 years?
1. Internet speeds that were still mostly dial-up at the time making the ability in quantity of media consumption less at similar time allotments.
2. Digital cameras have not only come way down in price, they exist everywhere and on everything.
3. Webcams were a small market, where now whether you really want one or not it is on often your device (computer, phone, portable media device)
4. Facebook-like sites were really only starting to evolve into the "social staple" (whether you and I agree or not) what they are today.
5. The fact that all these kids, seemingly rich or poor, have or have access to all the above which was nowhere near the case 10 years ago.
The playing field has changed. Before kids victim of bullying were either tormented at school or in their neighborhood or even worse both. Now, there isn't even a "virtual" escape because the bullies are there too. I quoted virtual because virtual has transformed from playing consoles without internet access and other "old-fashioned" forms of escape into everything practically being connected to the internet--socially and playfully.
Bullying is just one example. Go back to the article and the virility in which these coming of age experiences are shared and experienced is at a ferociously fast rate. If you wanted to look at porn in past generations, you either had to wait for a friend or your older sibling to hand over a magazine with still pictures where there would be a small group of friends to share it with--or if they were really lucky a video cassette--but not you can share it with the neighborhood called the world instantly online. Forget pictures of Pamela Anderson that boys had to use their imaginations to fantasize about, now just go over a friends house with more trusting parents if your parents are over your shoulders to forget the pictures, just get it all.
This is the bigger issue. Not one that I can see any stopping. Vigilant parenting and strong bonds will help, but then you also have to depend on equal parenting from the rest of your society. This is a tough one and why it is scary.
Now, setting aside some things I personally see as an advantage, which you should be proud of, like home schooling, let's keep it the coming of age argument and also strip the parental argument out for a second (even though I agree that it is a huuuge factor).
Your children were at this age 10 years ago. What has changed in 10 years?
1. Internet speeds that were still mostly dial-up at the time making the ability in quantity of media consumption less at similar time allotments.
2. Digital cameras have not only come way down in price, they exist everywhere and on everything.
3. Webcams were a small market, where now whether you really want one or not it is on often your device (computer, phone, portable media device)
4. Facebook-like sites were really only starting to evolve into the "social staple" (whether you and I agree or not) what they are today.
5. The fact that all these kids, seemingly rich or poor, have or have access to all the above which was nowhere near the case 10 years ago.
The playing field has changed. Before kids victim of bullying were either tormented at school or in their neighborhood or even worse both. Now, there isn't even a "virtual" escape because the bullies are there too. I quoted virtual because virtual has transformed from playing consoles without internet access and other "old-fashioned" forms of escape into everything practically being connected to the internet--socially and playfully.
Bullying is just one example. Go back to the article and the virility in which these coming of age experiences are shared and experienced is at a ferociously fast rate. If you wanted to look at porn in past generations, you either had to wait for a friend or your older sibling to hand over a magazine with still pictures where there would be a small group of friends to share it with--or if they were really lucky a video cassette--but not you can share it with the neighborhood called the world instantly online. Forget pictures of Pamela Anderson that boys had to use their imaginations to fantasize about, now just go over a friends house with more trusting parents if your parents are over your shoulders to forget the pictures, just get it all.
This is the bigger issue. Not one that I can see any stopping. Vigilant parenting and strong bonds will help, but then you also have to depend on equal parenting from the rest of your society. This is a tough one and why it is scary.
Without arguing it, as I said, it can be a problem but doesn't have to be. I realize things have changed in the landscape. But since my kids had strong acceptance from me, they were never desperate for acceptance from others. If others did not accept them, they felt no need to seek that acceptance and so were not easily manipulated in social settings. This is a strong defense against many types of social problems, whether online or off.
I really need to get offline now and attend to some things or I imagine I would be happy to drone on at length.
Later.
I really need to get offline now and attend to some things or I imagine I would be happy to drone on at length.
Later.
What I see reported there appear to be smart teen girls with much more worldly knowledge/thinking than you'd imagine. These are not girls doing silly dangerous things online, they are girls lighting a few matches and dropping them before being burned.
We all did it, maybe not on the internet (and, yes, that introduces a new element of risk we need to take care of), but we did it.
Their analysis of the guys they know is absolutely spot on and very mature. They understand; give credit for that :)
The second half of the article is of more concern; and the real problem is simply part of a wider problem in society. It has been exacerbated recently by the internet - but it is not a new issue, and no one has really successfully addressed it yet. Just let the whole mess to get slowly worse.
The article also mentions Skins; almost as if it is part of the problem. I have no idea if they show the UK version of Skins in the US (or if it is a remake) but the original is, IMO, one of the better attempts to make these issues of sexuality accessible to teens. A lot of people watch a bit and see sexual largess and drugs, but if you really watch there is an important message there about taking experiments too far :)