Ask HN: Should I pass on a remotely located co-founder?
19 comments
My current business was started with a co-founder that was nearly as far away as it is possible to be while remaining on the same planet (I was in Texas, he was in Australia...which some folks think is bigger than Texas, for some reason). I wouldn't have chosen a distant co-founder if I were "hiring" someone from a pool of roughly unknown choices, it just happened that I'd known him for about eight years and had worked with him numerous times (with him as a contractor working for my previous company).
There are circumstances where it can work fine, and my situation just happened to be one of those circumstances. I think the following has to be true for it to work extremely well:
1. Very clear boundary between your job and your co-founders job. If you need to touch the same files in your codebase more than once or twice a week, you're probably working on stuff that is too closely related. In my case, the software was my co-founders job, and everything else (including some UI work, but mainly the website to sell the product, the business-related paperwork and banking/taxes minutiae, marketing, documentation, etc.) was mine.
2. A good working relationship, where you both understand the others goals and understand what aspects of the task are to be done by each of you. Some sort of task management tool--we've used a bug tracker heavily from the very earliest days of the company--helps here.
3. Equal dedication to the goal. Since you aren't in the same room very often, it can be hard to be sure that everybody is doing their part. And if everyone isn't "firing on all cylinders" for the good of the company, it will fail.
But, you should keep in mind that the vast majority of Open Source projects are built and run by people who meet maybe once or twice per year. I worked for years on the Squid project and only ever met two of them in person (there are about 5 long-time core developers on the project) and spoke to a couple of others on the phone a few times. It doesn't stop them from getting great things done. MySQL AB was a famously distributed company--they had developers all over the world. If being acquired for $500M isn't a great success story, I don't know what is.
Though, I should also fess up to the fact that my co-founder and I now both live in the valley, a ten minute drive away, and we get together once a week for status meetings. We're still pretty distributed though...most of our peers that I've met out here work in the same office or in the same apartment. I don't know that I'd be more productive in such a circumstance, or that we'd be further along in our plans...but maybe.
There are circumstances where it can work fine, and my situation just happened to be one of those circumstances. I think the following has to be true for it to work extremely well:
1. Very clear boundary between your job and your co-founders job. If you need to touch the same files in your codebase more than once or twice a week, you're probably working on stuff that is too closely related. In my case, the software was my co-founders job, and everything else (including some UI work, but mainly the website to sell the product, the business-related paperwork and banking/taxes minutiae, marketing, documentation, etc.) was mine.
2. A good working relationship, where you both understand the others goals and understand what aspects of the task are to be done by each of you. Some sort of task management tool--we've used a bug tracker heavily from the very earliest days of the company--helps here.
3. Equal dedication to the goal. Since you aren't in the same room very often, it can be hard to be sure that everybody is doing their part. And if everyone isn't "firing on all cylinders" for the good of the company, it will fail.
But, you should keep in mind that the vast majority of Open Source projects are built and run by people who meet maybe once or twice per year. I worked for years on the Squid project and only ever met two of them in person (there are about 5 long-time core developers on the project) and spoke to a couple of others on the phone a few times. It doesn't stop them from getting great things done. MySQL AB was a famously distributed company--they had developers all over the world. If being acquired for $500M isn't a great success story, I don't know what is.
Though, I should also fess up to the fact that my co-founder and I now both live in the valley, a ten minute drive away, and we get together once a week for status meetings. We're still pretty distributed though...most of our peers that I've met out here work in the same office or in the same apartment. I don't know that I'd be more productive in such a circumstance, or that we'd be further along in our plans...but maybe.
I shall disagree with swombat. I co-founded a company a few years ago with some remote co-founders I had worked with on other projects. I thought it would be fine. However, there are major barriers to remote co-founders that can kill a business
- Inability to brainstorm at any moment
- Weakened brainstorming - It's just not the same via video, IM, or phone
- Paperwork takes longer - Often you both have to sign it. Mailing that crap is just horrendous
- Harder to keep on task - Having each other to keep pushing each other and set tasks and to-do lists is vital
- Meeting with investors is a pain when coordinating two different travel plans
- You just don't get to interact with your co-founders enough to REALLY know whether you're compatible for working together on a startup. You're going to have to be at the same place later on, might as well be now so you know this partnership is going to work 100%
The geographic distance was one of the big factors that killed our startup. Don't do it if you can avoid it in any way.
- Inability to brainstorm at any moment
- Weakened brainstorming - It's just not the same via video, IM, or phone
- Paperwork takes longer - Often you both have to sign it. Mailing that crap is just horrendous
- Harder to keep on task - Having each other to keep pushing each other and set tasks and to-do lists is vital
- Meeting with investors is a pain when coordinating two different travel plans
- You just don't get to interact with your co-founders enough to REALLY know whether you're compatible for working together on a startup. You're going to have to be at the same place later on, might as well be now so you know this partnership is going to work 100%
The geographic distance was one of the big factors that killed our startup. Don't do it if you can avoid it in any way.
As a founder of several companies that worked almost completely virtually, you can overcome all these issues.
Inability to brainstorm at any moment? Hardly. Chat is reasonable for this task.
Weakened brainstorming? Maybe. But you can always get together now and then in physical space. We do this every few months if possible.
Paperwork? Um, fax machines, scanners and pdfs. It takes the same amount of time.
Meeting pain? You still have to coordinate both schedules. This is work aroundable.
Motivation and keeping on task? This is a function of personality. It's very true that not everyone can work well virtually. I've found several winners in this regard, but I have also had to fire some people who might have been great in person, but just couldn't cut it remotely.
There are many benefits to working virtually. The talent pool is _much_ larger when it is national or international. The hours are better for everyone. One of my co-workers travels all over surfing in the mornings and working the rest of the day. All your communication (assuming you aren't using the phone much) is logged and can be searched, which is quite handy for those brainstorming sessions. It forces you into decent dev practices and into good communication.
It's not for everyone, surely, but neither is working in an office with your co-workers.
Inability to brainstorm at any moment? Hardly. Chat is reasonable for this task.
Weakened brainstorming? Maybe. But you can always get together now and then in physical space. We do this every few months if possible.
Paperwork? Um, fax machines, scanners and pdfs. It takes the same amount of time.
Meeting pain? You still have to coordinate both schedules. This is work aroundable.
Motivation and keeping on task? This is a function of personality. It's very true that not everyone can work well virtually. I've found several winners in this regard, but I have also had to fire some people who might have been great in person, but just couldn't cut it remotely.
There are many benefits to working virtually. The talent pool is _much_ larger when it is national or international. The hours are better for everyone. One of my co-workers travels all over surfing in the mornings and working the rest of the day. All your communication (assuming you aren't using the phone much) is logged and can be searched, which is quite handy for those brainstorming sessions. It forces you into decent dev practices and into good communication.
It's not for everyone, surely, but neither is working in an office with your co-workers.
This hits home.... I'm working with a distant co-founder right now.
I second each of Mystalic's points, with a single addition: motivation. Everyone -- even startup founders -- needs motivated now and again. When you need it your co-founder will be little help. And (what's much, much worse) when your co-founder needs it your attempts will likely be in vain. Motivation, passion, drive... it's hard enough to sustain those things in a physical setting. Trying to do so in a virtual setting is near-impossible.
I should add a caveat: Motivation is almost never an issue in the beginning, which is why this is such a precarious problem. You'll be tempted to disregard the likelihood for issues down the road in light of the current, rosy status quo. Fact is it's when you hit the dip (like when you miss your first deadline) that things turn sour. Just hope you don't find yourself there without recourse.
My advice is that if you think you absolutely have to found a company with someone in a different geographic region, ask yourself if that's really the case. Chew on it for a night (or a few weeks) if you need to. Err on the side of working with a local co-founder, and if you must work with someone in a different geographic region, move forward with caution.
I second each of Mystalic's points, with a single addition: motivation. Everyone -- even startup founders -- needs motivated now and again. When you need it your co-founder will be little help. And (what's much, much worse) when your co-founder needs it your attempts will likely be in vain. Motivation, passion, drive... it's hard enough to sustain those things in a physical setting. Trying to do so in a virtual setting is near-impossible.
I should add a caveat: Motivation is almost never an issue in the beginning, which is why this is such a precarious problem. You'll be tempted to disregard the likelihood for issues down the road in light of the current, rosy status quo. Fact is it's when you hit the dip (like when you miss your first deadline) that things turn sour. Just hope you don't find yourself there without recourse.
My advice is that if you think you absolutely have to found a company with someone in a different geographic region, ask yourself if that's really the case. Chew on it for a night (or a few weeks) if you need to. Err on the side of working with a local co-founder, and if you must work with someone in a different geographic region, move forward with caution.
Well, as I said - the guy I started it with is my best friend. I didn't just "work with him" - I lived with him for 2 years 10 years ago and have been in close contact ever since. We also used all the latest technology to break down that distance barrier... iChat (almost daily), regular trips up to Leicester (where he lives), etc. We still had major issues (who doesn't), but we pulled through and built a successful business that made money.
I started a successful business with a friend who was in another city, two hours away.
However, he was also my best friend that I'd known for 10 years.
Remote is fine, but you need to know the person well in real life, or else there will be many, many miscommunications.
However, he was also my best friend that I'd known for 10 years.
Remote is fine, but you need to know the person well in real life, or else there will be many, many miscommunications.
I can second this. I have two remote cofounders (~2 hours away), both are decade-long friends. So far working out well, but we've had instances where one of us needs to come up and stay with the other for a business week or two to get through some of the tougher collaboration pieces. If you already have a good, trusting relationship and high work-ethic then this can work pretty well via IM and email.
I've also worked a few years telecommuting myself, so I've learned a lot of the tricks to maximize the efficiency of that sort of situation. Using things like Jing, GoToMeeting, daily phone status meetings, and, lately, Chatterous, have helped us keep the communication efficiency high for our startup.
Definitely not for everyone, but it can work pretty well if you try hard.
I've also worked a few years telecommuting myself, so I've learned a lot of the tricks to maximize the efficiency of that sort of situation. Using things like Jing, GoToMeeting, daily phone status meetings, and, lately, Chatterous, have helped us keep the communication efficiency high for our startup.
Definitely not for everyone, but it can work pretty well if you try hard.
I started a business remotely with a friend and it didn't work out. He lost motivation and I couldn't get it back. Just because you know them very well doesn't always mean they will work well remotely. But at last you may have some idea going in. Oh, and it _really_ sucks to have to fire your friends.
My advice is if your question is 'should I pass on xx cofounder?' the question is yes. You need to be SURE with any cofounder.
If it is somebody you have worked with and know well, it may not matter if they are in a different time zone, but if you have to ask: it probably will.
If it is somebody you have worked with and know well, it may not matter if they are in a different time zone, but if you have to ask: it probably will.
My co-founder and I started out working from our own separate homes, and we experienced a huge surge in productivity once we moved in to a common office. And I mean HUGE. Phones, IM, email, they're all very nice, but nothing beats face-to-face, sitting in the same room, looking at the same computer screen when necessary.
IMO productivity in a team, where the people are working on the same thing (which makes DHH's case irrelevant) goes exponentially down with distance. Measuring the distance in feet vs. miles makes more difference than measuring it in miles vs. thousands of miles.
IMO productivity in a team, where the people are working on the same thing (which makes DHH's case irrelevant) goes exponentially down with distance. Measuring the distance in feet vs. miles makes more difference than measuring it in miles vs. thousands of miles.
I think DHH would say you are doomed for failure unless you are on different continents. :)
It probably depends on how self-motivated you both are and if you are keeping day jobs. The biggest challenge I've seen is keeping momentum-- and either distance or outside responsibilities are often huge drags -- but only you can make the call ultimately. You could try going long distance with just clear terms laid out so that in three months if stuff isn't getting done you aren't stuck in a lousy partnership.
It probably depends on how self-motivated you both are and if you are keeping day jobs. The biggest challenge I've seen is keeping momentum-- and either distance or outside responsibilities are often huge drags -- but only you can make the call ultimately. You could try going long distance with just clear terms laid out so that in three months if stuff isn't getting done you aren't stuck in a lousy partnership.
Well you do know that 37Signals is distributed across the United States. AFAIK they only have a handful of dudes in the Chicago office.
My Co-Founder and I worked together at a consulting firm, we were in the same city. But when we decided to start working on our idea, we were in two different locations.
For the first 6 months we worked remotely, and for the last 3 weeks we've been in the same location. And honestly, the amount of productivity that exists being in the same place at this early stage is not achievable remotely.
1 week same location = 4 weeks remotely (In my opinion)
For the first 6 months we worked remotely, and for the last 3 weeks we've been in the same location. And honestly, the amount of productivity that exists being in the same place at this early stage is not achievable remotely.
1 week same location = 4 weeks remotely (In my opinion)
It really depends, I think. If you know the person or has a very good recommendation from a friend, then Id test it out. I am currently working on a friend of a friend (recommended highly by the latter friend) who resides in NZ (I am in sydney). Comms is a problem. It is a very new thing but I could really use his presence in Sydney.
But I am new to this game, so I cant tell you the otherside of the story.
But I am new to this game, so I cant tell you the otherside of the story.
First, make sure that your remote cofounder is a human, and definitely not an unfriendly AI. ;)
Should I consider a remote co-founder? What experiences have you had - good or bad?