Raspberry Pi 4 Review(electromaker.io)
electromaker.io
Raspberry Pi 4 Review
https://www.electromaker.io/blog/article/raspberry-pi-4-review-hands-on-with-the-raspberry-pi-4-a-true-raspberry-pi-desktop
136 comments
I hate the profiteering feeling of the Canadian resalers. I want a Pi plus a case and the heat sinks that I think are mandatory. To get that they want to sell me crap I don't need like yet another SD card and power supply. Suddenly the price hits $100CAD and the sexiness of the low price is gone.
I can assure you the Canadian resellers are not profiteering (I'm not a Canadian reseller but have inside knowledge of their workings).
Remember the goal of the Raspberry Pi is to make computing accessible via a low cost. This necessitates the resellers having almost no margin. In fact, their margins are most likely negative after importation duties and taxes, e-waste levies etc, and they're expected to make up for this by selling accessories.
You mention the SDCard and Power Supply. It is good that the Canadian resellers are encouraging end customers to buy these (most will not be as sophisticated as the average HN reader).
Most users who have an existing Raspberry Pi will go and try to use their existing SD card and have it not work, or buy a cheap one (hear not Class 10 or above) from their local stationary shop and end up in a worse fate.
Most users who think they have a power supply that meets the needs of the RPi4, in fact, do not. This is primarily due to the new current requirements (hear most cell phone power supplies will not work).
One would be excused for thinking that your MacBook power supply would work, however, these power supplies are "smart" and negotiate the power requirements with the end device.
Unfortunately, the RPi4 does not support this, and "smart" power supplies do not provide it with enough current.
To summarise:
The resellers are businesses and not charities, they don't make money on hardware from the Raspberry Pi foundation and must make it up on accessories or some form of cross-selling.
They will no doubt go the same way as the independent Apple resellers, until that time they are still playing a valuable role in making it possible to purchase Pis in your country.
Remember the goal of the Raspberry Pi is to make computing accessible via a low cost. This necessitates the resellers having almost no margin. In fact, their margins are most likely negative after importation duties and taxes, e-waste levies etc, and they're expected to make up for this by selling accessories.
You mention the SDCard and Power Supply. It is good that the Canadian resellers are encouraging end customers to buy these (most will not be as sophisticated as the average HN reader).
Most users who have an existing Raspberry Pi will go and try to use their existing SD card and have it not work, or buy a cheap one (hear not Class 10 or above) from their local stationary shop and end up in a worse fate.
Most users who think they have a power supply that meets the needs of the RPi4, in fact, do not. This is primarily due to the new current requirements (hear most cell phone power supplies will not work).
One would be excused for thinking that your MacBook power supply would work, however, these power supplies are "smart" and negotiate the power requirements with the end device.
Unfortunately, the RPi4 does not support this, and "smart" power supplies do not provide it with enough current.
To summarise:
The resellers are businesses and not charities, they don't make money on hardware from the Raspberry Pi foundation and must make it up on accessories or some form of cross-selling.
They will no doubt go the same way as the independent Apple resellers, until that time they are still playing a valuable role in making it possible to purchase Pis in your country.
I don't think that the heat sinks are mandatory.
Depends. I am holding off on using mine 24/7 until I have a suitable case with good airflow, and definitely looking into active cooling. The 4 runs a lot hotter than the 3+.
If you have available vertical space, I've printed a "cooling case" that works great with my pi 3b+ without heatsinks. It's shaped like a flower vase(wide top, narrow bottom). The top is open(think of it like a large, open drinking cup), and the pi sits in the very bottom. Two funnel-shaped openings(large inlet, small outlet) allow outside airflow directly onto the CPU and wifi chips.
So far it works at full load without throttling for at least the time span of a full length movie(my use-case is a plex media server). The concept is that exhaust heat leaving through the larger opening up top is heated(and expanding) air. The depressurized vase pulls cooler ambient air in through the 2 funnels, which strike the CPU and wifi module for a poor-mans "active cooling", albeit at much lower speeds than a motor-driven fan could provide.
The downside is required vertical; the case is 8 inches tall. This is several times the vertical height of the board itself, so it's a bit of a non-starter for small embedded device use-cases. If you have space to spare though, it might be worth a shot depending on your use-case.
So far it works at full load without throttling for at least the time span of a full length movie(my use-case is a plex media server). The concept is that exhaust heat leaving through the larger opening up top is heated(and expanding) air. The depressurized vase pulls cooler ambient air in through the 2 funnels, which strike the CPU and wifi module for a poor-mans "active cooling", albeit at much lower speeds than a motor-driven fan could provide.
The downside is required vertical; the case is 8 inches tall. This is several times the vertical height of the board itself, so it's a bit of a non-starter for small embedded device use-cases. If you have space to spare though, it might be worth a shot depending on your use-case.
Is there anything on top of it? If not, how do you deal with dust coming in from above when the pi isn't used that much (eg during the night) and the airflow lower?
I see them all over. I see them being sold. If they're an option they really ought to be explained somewhere upfront.
I think you only need them if you want to overclock.
Just because someone's selling something, doesnt mean you need to buy it.
Just because someone's selling something, doesnt mean you need to buy it.
My 4 runs at around 60C idle and hits 80C easily without overclocking (just regular loads). That is a bit too much for a tiny device (and a tiny plastic case).
Me experience is exactly the same. Usage is mainly watching Plex or other streaming video.
I got rid of the case and just nailed it to the wall with some space on either side as a stopgap measure. This has reduced the frequency of the throttling as indicated by the temp gauge on screen, but not entirely avoided it. I have plans to add cooling this weekend.
This is with all upgrades as of today.
I got rid of the case and just nailed it to the wall with some space on either side as a stopgap measure. This has reduced the frequency of the throttling as indicated by the temp gauge on screen, but not entirely avoided it. I have plans to add cooling this weekend.
This is with all upgrades as of today.
How often are you reaching the 80C throttle limit? Have you installed the latest firmware update? It should keep the temps from hitting the ceiling, depending on usage.
Update information: https://www.retrorgb.com/raspberry-pi-4-firmware-update.html
Update information: https://www.retrorgb.com/raspberry-pi-4-firmware-update.html
This did not help me. Using the pi4 as a desktop based machine, even just for streaming, will regularly hit 80c.
That update is not final and causes USB3 issues.
Them being in the base kits they sell implies otherwise. That's my frustration.
I mean, the raspberry pi foundation sells cases, but doesn't sell heatsinks AFAIK. It's hard to say they're in the base kit.
While I don't know about the Pi4, I've found that heatsinks are absolutely required for my uses of the Pi3s. In every situation where I've used a 3 I've had problems with them thermal-throttling down to a basically useless clock speed or just straight-up overheating and blowing. And I'm not overclocking. I don't feel safe using them in embedded applications without _at least_ a heatsink on the main CPU. My workbench Pi also has a small 5V fan on it.
Are the 4s different somehow? Or has every 3 I've purchased (somewhere around a dozen) been defective? (I don't have this issue with the Zeros.)
Are the 4s different somehow? Or has every 3 I've purchased (somewhere around a dozen) been defective? (I don't have this issue with the Zeros.)
The Raspberry Pi 4 no longer has incremental thermal throttling and was capable of running under "normal" desktop usage loads without active cooling.
Under benchmarking cooling was required to stay under the 80deg C throttle limit.
Article referenced: https://blog.hackster.io/meet-the-new-raspberry-pi-4-model-b...
Under benchmarking cooling was required to stay under the 80deg C throttle limit.
Article referenced: https://blog.hackster.io/meet-the-new-raspberry-pi-4-model-b...
My experience is that the Pi 4 gets very hot. You touch it anywhere (USB port, Ethernet port) and it hurts.
I got a 40mm 5V Noctua fan for it and 3D printed a case that takes it. The thing now runs very cold. Idle CPU temperatures were about 60 degrees before, now loaded temperatures are around 40. Airflow is a big deal. (I am not using any heat sinks.)
I got a 40mm 5V Noctua fan for it and 3D printed a case that takes it. The thing now runs very cold. Idle CPU temperatures were about 60 degrees before, now loaded temperatures are around 40. Airflow is a big deal. (I am not using any heat sinks.)
Any chance you'd be willing to put up the files for the case somewhere? I have a 40mm fan and a Pi on the way that I'd like to put together.
I actually bought the official case and drilled out a hole for a Pi-Fan (you can get them on Amazon or most places that have Pi's and accessories), 1 1/8". I mounted the fan on the top case and plugged it into the 5V and GND GPIO pins, and it keeps the Pi nice and cool.
I'm working on a blog post and YouTube video with the full details, but it's not that difficult an operation, and I liked the look/size of the official Pi case more than a printed case or one of the thousands of knockoffs.
I do agree with the parent that a fan (active cooling) is absolutely necessary on the Pi 4, more so than any before, as the CPU is not the only part on the board putting out a lot more heat than previous generations—that heat needs to move somewhere.
I'm working on a blog post and YouTube video with the full details, but it's not that difficult an operation, and I liked the look/size of the official Pi case more than a printed case or one of the thousands of knockoffs.
I do agree with the parent that a fan (active cooling) is absolutely necessary on the Pi 4, more so than any before, as the CPU is not the only part on the board putting out a lot more heat than previous generations—that heat needs to move somewhere.
It's this one: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3723481
I printed it honeycomb infill and no top/bottom layers (and also rotated it so it printed with the top and bottom on the bed, instead of upright; having to change that might be an artifact of the slicer I used, though; Simplify3D)
I printed it honeycomb infill and no top/bottom layers (and also rotated it so it printed with the top and bottom on the bed, instead of upright; having to change that might be an artifact of the slicer I used, though; Simplify3D)
Is it possible to order without a facebook account? I'd like one but I don't use facebook.
You forgot to mention what you use them for. My pi3 is inside a Lego case with no fan. I watch videos with it, use it as a git repo host and share files from it and have never had a problem. I never turn it off. But perhaps if it was compiling or something I'd need to worry.
It depends on the video. The pair of Pi units I currently have active (something from the v2 line and a 3B+) are being video players via LibreELEC (the third was a small server for DHCP, NTP, ad filtering DNS, etc, though those jobs are now done elsewhere as it kept eating SD cards).
For almost everything I've thrown at the 3 all has been well. The thermal throttle kicks in after a while playing 1080p HEVC clips and occasionally on 720p ones, and makes them skip badly until it has chance to cool down, but that is not unexpected (I'm surprised 720p works as well as it usually does) as those are fairly processing intensive formats and being decoded in software. h264 and other encodings play back for hours on end (1080p or less, the limit of my current TVs) without it getting too warm for comfort. This is in a bog-standard case, with vents but no extra heatsinks or fans.
When I have time to faf around (this is a busy month) I'll probably grab a 4 for the HEVC-in-hardware (though support for that in LibreELEC is only in Alpha versions ATM), and hand down the 3 (or put it away for some future project).
For almost everything I've thrown at the 3 all has been well. The thermal throttle kicks in after a while playing 1080p HEVC clips and occasionally on 720p ones, and makes them skip badly until it has chance to cool down, but that is not unexpected (I'm surprised 720p works as well as it usually does) as those are fairly processing intensive formats and being decoded in software. h264 and other encodings play back for hours on end (1080p or less, the limit of my current TVs) without it getting too warm for comfort. This is in a bog-standard case, with vents but no extra heatsinks or fans.
When I have time to faf around (this is a busy month) I'll probably grab a 4 for the HEVC-in-hardware (though support for that in LibreELEC is only in Alpha versions ATM), and hand down the 3 (or put it away for some future project).
Which pi3? The ones with the metal heatspreader?
This is a good question, because I'm not sure offhand if any of the ones which failed were the 3B+ with the new heat spreader on the CPU. I suspect they weren't, as that model only came out a bit of a year ago.
I _have_ had overheat issues with the updated 3B+, though it usually involves 720P video and/or an active RTL-SDR dongle. That's somewhat to be expected given the power draw and processor demands of such.
I _have_ had overheat issues with the updated 3B+, though it usually involves 720P video and/or an active RTL-SDR dongle. That's somewhat to be expected given the power draw and processor demands of such.
Got to say Pimoroni's Fan Shim [1] works well. It is easy to set up, and they have a python library with a systemd service that can auto start and stop the fan depending on the CPU temperature. While you can get away without cooling, the CPU will be throttled to pieces.
[1] https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/fan-shim
[1] https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/fan-shim
Neato.
Have you tried buyapi.ca
You can buy the individual pieces that you need without being forced into buying extra crap.
Thank you. I kept looking at Canakit and other sites.
Buyapi.ca seems a bit better. I specced a 2GB, heat sinks, a case. Totals CAD $95 (13% tax and $11 shipping).
My frustration is probably a combination of:
- I get to listen to US prices being advertised all the time. "$45 for a 2GB!" and my brain loves to not do the conversion from USD to CAD. This is a longer rant for another time.
- 13% freedom tax
- Amazon has spoiled me with free shipping so $11 has some sticker price shock to ship a little box.
Buyapi.ca seems a bit better. I specced a 2GB, heat sinks, a case. Totals CAD $95 (13% tax and $11 shipping).
My frustration is probably a combination of:
- I get to listen to US prices being advertised all the time. "$45 for a 2GB!" and my brain loves to not do the conversion from USD to CAD. This is a longer rant for another time.
- 13% freedom tax
- Amazon has spoiled me with free shipping so $11 has some sticker price shock to ship a little box.
Those bits and pieces are bodge-able. Have extra kudos for making do. Make a case out of recycled packaging materials or wood or mesh or whatever. Take a heatsink and little fan off an obsolete graphics card - cut it down to fit if necessary, tie it on with thread and use some old grease as thermal compound if necessary :)
Yeah - there is a counter intuitive thing happening when dealing with tech. The technology in the Pi (any of them) is super high. The technology of the case, heat sinks, power, etc... is much much lower. I have this aversion to paying the same amount for those components.
This is part of the attraction of alternative boards like the OrangePi PC+, for $32.50 I get a board with fast eMMC, a case and a 5v 3A charger that is all known to work well together, with the downside being it takes 2 weeks to turn up from China: https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32669760149.html
I'm rather surprised that there is still no SPI Flash or eMMC onboard this latest Raspberry Pi, MicroSD cards are significantly slower than eMMC, and even some cheap SPI Flash would be great to let you throw a small backup distro on the RasPi for when you have no SD card inserted (or the card has failed/corrupted)
I'm rather surprised that there is still no SPI Flash or eMMC onboard this latest Raspberry Pi, MicroSD cards are significantly slower than eMMC, and even some cheap SPI Flash would be great to let you throw a small backup distro on the RasPi for when you have no SD card inserted (or the card has failed/corrupted)
This. If you do anything write-intensive at all, it's not only slow, but extremely failure-prone. We moved to the BeagleBone Black, and most recently, Intel NUC, to resolve these issues.
Agreed. I was planning to set up a pi as a media server sharing out a synced Dropbox folder, but the long term reliability of the storage made that impossible. Sure, you can attach USB storage (and that should be pretty fast with the Pi4) but then the tiny form factor is lost.
Well, MicroSD cards go up to 250 MB/s. ~100 MB/s reads and 80 MB/s writes are typical for good new cards.
I guess eMMC goes up to 500 MB/s. I do wonder how much that fast eMMC chips cost, though.
A bit below 50 MB/s on RPi4 is actually pretty ok for most cases and whenever it's not, one can use an SSD over USB3.
Just need to make sure you have a good power supply and good quality cards, and SD card corruption is unlikely.
I guess eMMC goes up to 500 MB/s. I do wonder how much that fast eMMC chips cost, though.
A bit below 50 MB/s on RPi4 is actually pretty ok for most cases and whenever it's not, one can use an SSD over USB3.
Just need to make sure you have a good power supply and good quality cards, and SD card corruption is unlikely.
I've only bought 1 Pi, and it came from Canada. But RPi is based in the UK. Is there a story I'm not aware of behind why so many resellers are Canadian?
This was the absolute worst when the Zero first came out. The supposed $5 board was impossible to buy on its own, only with HDMI adapters a (non-official) power supply, cheap off-brand SD card and (non-official) case which caused the price to go up to like $40.
that's funny because the Pi Zero was given away with a magazine subscription
https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/issues/40/
Almost cheap enough to come at the bottom of a Crackerjack box.
Can't blame resellers for reselling.
Can't blame resellers for reselling.
But you can blame the greedy for being greedy and wrecking good things. When are we going to get around to making things better ? Might as well start with these fools.
Yet another review without benchmarks comparing the The raspberry pi 4 to other SBC's on the market.
Comparing a product to its previous generation provides some information but does next to nothing to inform how product stands within the rest of the market.
Comparing a product to its previous generation provides some information but does next to nothing to inform how product stands within the rest of the market.
If you want to find out what these do I would head over to Youtube and look for a channel called "ETA Prime". He benches almost all of these boards for Emulation.
This review is very disappointing. He's simply parroting all the marketing hype from the manufacturer and adding very little original thought. He doesn't even have a 4k monitor to test the Pi 4. That's one of the biggest new features and he just glosses over it.
So is the Rpi 4 susceptible to Spectre? There is no information about it even though the chipset is apparently
Like your PC and smartphone it is vulnerable in theory without software mitigations but have there been any documented practical Spectre attacks in the wild?
AFAIK Spectre implementations have been limited to security researchers in universities ATM.
So I'll ask, is it worth worrying about this for you? In terms of vulnerabilities there are lower hanging fruits.
AFAIK Spectre implementations have been limited to security researchers in universities ATM.
So I'll ask, is it worth worrying about this for you? In terms of vulnerabilities there are lower hanging fruits.
>Like your PC and smartphone
This isn’t necessarily true for your smartphone, because some ARM CPUs don’t do the speculative execution that Spectre/Meltdown exploit. For example, CPU in the raspberry pi 3 didn’t have these vulnerabilities which I assume is why the parent was asking this question.
This isn’t necessarily true for your smartphone, because some ARM CPUs don’t do the speculative execution that Spectre/Meltdown exploit. For example, CPU in the raspberry pi 3 didn’t have these vulnerabilities which I assume is why the parent was asking this question.
Most modern smartphones have Arm based chips with speculative execution which are vulnerable without software patches.
It is.
Yes, because Pi4 has Cortex A72 wich is vulnerable to Spectre
Source: https://www.androidauthority.com/meltdown-spectre-kpti-82752...
Source: https://www.androidauthority.com/meltdown-spectre-kpti-82752...
Ordered mine from Element14 at 5:30am Eastern the morning it was announced, and my order status has constantly said "Shipping " + two days out from whatever date I check. Still hasn't shipped! The demand for this thing must be incredible.
Which RAM configuration? I bought a 2GB board from buyapi.ca and have had it in hand for more than a week.
I ordered a 4GB from vilros.com Friday before last. It arrived the following Monday. I have never dealt with them before but was pleased with the process. Their inventory seems fairly limited to raspberry, arduinos, and accessories.
Thanks for bringing them up. I have never heard of vilros I read this post at 10:50 AM. By 10:52 AM I had purchased a 4G Raspberry Pi 4.
Not trying to rub it in, but in Cambridge I can just walk into the shop and pick one up! ;)
So there are plenty out there, I'd chase yours up
So there are plenty out there, I'd chase yours up
Ordered a 4GB one from Pimoroni (UK). Arrived a week later (last Thursday) in Portugal via standard post.
Some notes here: https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2019/07/14/1400
Some notes here: https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2019/07/14/1400
I'm pretty sure the 4GB boards have not been shipping yet. Most places only have the 2GB right now and not even the 1.
Same here. I ordered a 2GB board around 3am Central US on launch day and mine still says it'll ship "in 2 days"
I ordered Thursday from Amazon and got it regular shipping on Saturday. Only had 2gb kits.
Before you rush buying Pi4, check this more extensive technical review from MickMack: https://youtu.be/AHIld3cjmTM
Dont buy the official case. They will run hot.
Get one off amazon that has a fan. - "Acrylic case for raspberry pi 4"
edit - well it might not matter actually, I'd rather not spread false concern.
Get one off amazon that has a fan. - "Acrylic case for raspberry pi 4"
edit - well it might not matter actually, I'd rather not spread false concern.
The official case is fine. The Raspberry Pi 4 is thermally stable. It may run a little hotter but far below the throttle limit under normal loads and no longer uses incremental thermal throttling like the Pi 3.
This is commonly repeated but it really depends on what is meant by "normal use" and caused me a lot of headache when I thought my board was defective. If you mean watch youtube videos on one display at regular quality, the pi4 hits 80+ degrees c, at which point the metal is burning hot to the touch and starts throttling.
Desktop / gui use requires either hanging the board so there is air passing on all sides or a cooling solution.
Desktop / gui use requires either hanging the board so there is air passing on all sides or a cooling solution.
Didn't the thermal situation radically improve after the first firmware update?
Didn't see any improvement. I think the fix was about the USB chip temperatures only. I'm planning to get heatsinks on the hottest chips + fan.
I have not experienced that in this context.
Mine started to throttle in less than 10 minutes watching Youtube. About ~24C (75F) ambient temperature. 4 GB model, SD-card, no case, mouse and keyboard connected to USB.
I'm working on developing a programming course for teenage students from a range of socioeconomic backgrounds, some of whom will not have access to their own laptops. I was thinking the Pi could be a great option here (of course it requires separate display/keyboard, so I'm still weighing the value prop here). Does anyone have experience with something like this?
Pis can be connected to TVs if no proper screen is available and even older models should be good enough for a programming course.
Seems the site went down, here is Google's cached text-only version:
*edit - wayback link below is a much better cached copy. thanks manchoz.
*edit - wayback link below is a much better cached copy. thanks manchoz.
I do light baking in Unreal Engine 4 using a program called 'Swarm' https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/Rendering/Lightin...
Swarm only uses CPU power so you cannot take advantage of GPUs to bake lighting.
I wonder if I could get 100 RPi4's to run Windows + Swarm and create a render farm for $3500...?
Swarm only uses CPU power so you cannot take advantage of GPUs to bake lighting.
I wonder if I could get 100 RPi4's to run Windows + Swarm and create a render farm for $3500...?
Those clusters never made any economical sense. If you want to build a render farm then base it on a cheap 8 core chip like the Ryzen 2700 which retails for $200. Add $250 for a cheap motherboard, case, SSD, PSU, RAM. If your budget really was just $3500 then the Ryzen cluster would absolutely destroy the 100 core cluster but then there is also the fact that the $3500 only buy you bare SBCs. You still need a power supply, a case to mount 100 raspberry pis, a custom cooling solution, storage, a big switch or a huge amount of smaller switches. The total costs will be at least twice as high.
Probably cost much more than that once you figure in the power and networking equipment.
If I had the expertise, I would make large clusters with a bunch of the RPi CM3+.
If I had the expertise, I would make large clusters with a bunch of the RPi CM3+.
Even with CM3+ I don't think the numbers add up. The 8GB CM3+ is $30, so after buying a hundred you're left with just additional $5 per board for power, interconnect and cooling (just like R.Pi 3, the compute module without additional cooling gets thermally throttled really quick).
Since you can't run CM3 standalone, you'll be making custom hardware. Even if you don't count your development time, my gut feeling says that $5 is not enough to cover even just BOM costs for such a project.
Since you can't run CM3 standalone, you'll be making custom hardware. Even if you don't count your development time, my gut feeling says that $5 is not enough to cover even just BOM costs for such a project.
If I were doing this, there'd be a number of questions to ask yourself before you dumped a lot of money into it:
1. Is there a version of Windows for the RasPi (I think this is true, but it's been a while)?
2. Will Swarm and any other software you'd need for the cluster also run on the RasPi version of Windows?
3. How well does a single instance run on the RasPi?
At that point, assuming #3 looks good - you could take it to the next level. Try two RasPi systems connected via a gigabit switch (cheap 5 port), and see how the performance scales vs a single instance. Then try four RasPi systems.
At that point you should have enough data to determine how well a large render farm would run, compared to your desktop or whatever else you could come up with (would it be cheaper to spin up virtual servers as needed on AWS or similar?).
Also realize that $3500 (approx) will only cover the RasPi systems; you'll need even more money for the power supply(s), cooling fans, switches, networking cables, power cabling, "enclosure" (even if just stacked using standoffs, you should still figure out how much all that will cost), etc. $4500 might be a more realistic figure.
Even so - if it worked, and worked well - that dollar amount might not be that big a deal. Worst case, you could get a HN article out of it (whether as triumph or post-mortem - it would still be an interesting read).
1. Is there a version of Windows for the RasPi (I think this is true, but it's been a while)?
2. Will Swarm and any other software you'd need for the cluster also run on the RasPi version of Windows?
3. How well does a single instance run on the RasPi?
At that point, assuming #3 looks good - you could take it to the next level. Try two RasPi systems connected via a gigabit switch (cheap 5 port), and see how the performance scales vs a single instance. Then try four RasPi systems.
At that point you should have enough data to determine how well a large render farm would run, compared to your desktop or whatever else you could come up with (would it be cheaper to spin up virtual servers as needed on AWS or similar?).
Also realize that $3500 (approx) will only cover the RasPi systems; you'll need even more money for the power supply(s), cooling fans, switches, networking cables, power cabling, "enclosure" (even if just stacked using standoffs, you should still figure out how much all that will cost), etc. $4500 might be a more realistic figure.
Even so - if it worked, and worked well - that dollar amount might not be that big a deal. Worst case, you could get a HN article out of it (whether as triumph or post-mortem - it would still be an interesting read).
Bitscope is making a new edition of relatively cheap mounting hardware to make clusters of RPi 4 (current blade versions are compatible with RPi 4 but power supply limits kick in): https://bitscope.com/blog/JK/?p=JK34A
For USD2850 you can get 3 rack mounts that can power 90 RPi 4's: http://my.bitscope.com/store/?p=view&i=item+7
The clusters can get pretty big: https://www.bitscope.com/blog/FM/?p=GF13L
For USD2850 you can get 3 rack mounts that can power 90 RPi 4's: http://my.bitscope.com/store/?p=view&i=item+7
The clusters can get pretty big: https://www.bitscope.com/blog/FM/?p=GF13L
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The site appears to been hugged to death by HN. The rate of such incidents makes me wonder whether there are good reasons for so many websites not to use CloudFlare or if it's the result of plain old incompetence of the respective webmasters.
As bulky and slow as Wordpress is, it's still dead-simple to set up and start publishing with. Many people value that convenience.
> The rate of such incidents makes me wonder whether there are good reasons for so many websites not to use CloudFlare
Not using something that cannot help in such situations is a good reason or even merely sanity. The problem is websites want to feed you some cookies and generate pages dynamically for each visitor, so things like full page caching don't just work, they require special considerations. At which point setting up such set-cookie stripping caching on the webserver would solve the problem anyway.
Not using something that cannot help in such situations is a good reason or even merely sanity. The problem is websites want to feed you some cookies and generate pages dynamically for each visitor, so things like full page caching don't just work, they require special considerations. At which point setting up such set-cookie stripping caching on the webserver would solve the problem anyway.
ah yes, anyone who doesn't want to be vendor locked into Cloudflare is incompetent.
I don't see how using Cloudflare = getting locked into using Cloudflare. Can you please elaborate? From my perspective, I could just switch my DNS away from Cloudflare and my site would still continue to be served just fine (albeit without a CDN).
Centralising all web sites by proxying them all through Cloduflare doesn't seem like a great idea either.
Does this problem have a solution that you would approve of (aside from switching the CDN from CloudFlare to some competitor)?
I think adjustment of expectations that all sites (including personal websites) need to achieve five 9's of reliability / availability is the way I'd go. Sometimes websites go offline. It's okay, there are plenty more, and they'll be back later anyway.
I am still annoyed that there's not a proper audio-in capability on the RPi4. I've been wanting to use a stack of Raspberry Pi units when building a podcasting studio featuring a recording setup for linking several remote participants, but lacking proper audio hardware support for audio-in, it's a no-go (USB audio adapters and "hats" are either too flaky or so expensive as to make it not that much of a deal to go this route). I really hope a future Raspberry Pi addresses this shortcoming.
Are you expecting them to add a hi-fi ADC and a mic preamp to a $35 SBC? The existing audio output on the Pi is of terrible quality and I would expect any future audio input to be of worse quality than those $10 XLR->USB mic adapters.
The Allwinner H2+ and H3 CPUs are used in sub $20 and sub $10 boards such as some Orange and Nano PIs though they seem to be very different beasts sound wise from the Raspberries.
From page 61 of the Allwinner H3 CPU data sheet:
------
2.1.8.1. Audio Codec
- Two audio digital-to-analog(DAC) channels
- Support analog/ digital volume control
- One low-noise analog microphone bias output
- Analog low-power loop from line-in /microphone to lineout outputs
- Support Dynamic Range Controller adjusting the DAC playback output
- Three audio inputs: -Two differential microphone inputs -Stereo Linein input
- Two audio analog-to-digital(ADC) channels - 92dB SNR@A-weight - Supports ADC Sample Rates from 8KHz to 48KHz
Support Automatic Gain Control(AGC) and Dynamic Range Control(DRC) adjusting the ADC recording input
------
2.1.8.1. Audio Codec
- Two audio digital-to-analog(DAC) channels
- Support analog/ digital volume control
- One low-noise analog microphone bias output
- Analog low-power loop from line-in /microphone to lineout outputs
- Support Dynamic Range Controller adjusting the DAC playback output
- Three audio inputs: -Two differential microphone inputs -Stereo Linein input
- Two audio analog-to-digital(ADC) channels - 92dB SNR@A-weight - Supports ADC Sample Rates from 8KHz to 48KHz
Support Automatic Gain Control(AGC) and Dynamic Range Control(DRC) adjusting the ADC recording input
The trouble is, most of the H2/H3 boards seem to be designed as Pi-alikes and don't bother to wire up non-Pi features like line in. I'm not sure they'd even particularly benefit from doing so - not matter how useful the extra features are, all the hobbyist sites frame their discussion of other boards around how well they do the things that the Raspberry Pi can do, so chances are most people will never find out about what those other boards do better.
That is true. Although the H2+/3 have a much better line output than the Raspberries and stereo line in plus differential mic in, on most boards the only input available is a mono mic one which is better than nothing, but a real stereo line in could turn out to be really useful.
Actually, the mic input shouldn't pose any problems in some aplications, save for possibly higher noise than what could be obtained by pairing a quiet single stage preamp to a line input, however I wish board makers paid more attention to the audio world; with todays faster cores and cheap memory there are some killer apps waiting to happen.
As an example, guitarix (http://guitarix.org) has been already ported to ARM, so a small board with decent audio i/o would make an ideal candidate for building a very compact guitar fx processor.
I didn't say hi-fi; AC97 would be more than enough. The point is something hardware based that's on the board. I've heard that PIs are frequently used as HTPC machines so terrible audio out, as you put it, is surprising to me.
nobody uses analog audio out in an HTPC use case. You send digital audio streams out the HDMI port.
Even a low end external ADC is going to greatly outperform anything RPi could ship onboard for a reasonable cost, and even if they did ship something onboard, at this point it would almost certainly just be a USB ADC, but onboard.
Even a low end external ADC is going to greatly outperform anything RPi could ship onboard for a reasonable cost, and even if they did ship something onboard, at this point it would almost certainly just be a USB ADC, but onboard.
Many people use analog audio because it's good value when you have old amps lying around. Most htpc users aren't audiophiles.
Calling it terrible is entirely unfair. It's perfectly usable since the fixes went in a couple of years ago. For most use cases there's no reason to buy an audio HAT any more. Perhaps the poster is using (very) old software?
And of course, HTPC users would likely be taking their audio over HDMI anyway.
And of course, HTPC users would likely be taking their audio over HDMI anyway.
First, there's nothing wrong with using quality USB audio equipment (or hats!), that's just crazy talk.
Second, you're talking about $30 or $40 per unit to upgrade to the capabilities you want. I wouldn't wait for Raspberry Pi to include additional ports, I'd check the couch for change.
Second, you're talking about $30 or $40 per unit to upgrade to the capabilities you want. I wouldn't wait for Raspberry Pi to include additional ports, I'd check the couch for change.
So true. I've recorded plenty of jams thru a small usb pre-amp. It sounds fucking awesome too.
Bingo! Clearly, with FOUR USB ports the I/O strategy of the Pi family has been quite USB-biased since the beginning. I'm pretty sure that means the Pi designers expected people to use USB to fill in the interface gaps!
In addition to the excellent answers from other comments, I would also say that there is a benefit to external audio devices as they are less prone to interference. On-board audio can be noisy due to improper shielding.
Delivering a SBC with audio and improper shielding isn't something good engineers would do; audio with proper shielding would increase costs and/or require a less crowded board, which isn't a good tradeoff for most uses; so the good option is no audio.
You would still have connectors and wires with sensitive analog singals picking up noise. Integrating ADC and amplifier with the mic and never pushing analog signals over wires is the best that can be done.
A £5 USB audio adapter[1] 33 Reviewers, no reports of problems.
[1] https://thepihut.com/products/usb-audio-adapter
[1] https://thepihut.com/products/usb-audio-adapter
I don't believe the are the absolute highest-end quality, but there are dedicated audio hats for the raspberry pi.
https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/#boards
EDIT: Amazon reviewers seem to think the sound quality is extremely good for the price. I guess I know what I'll be playing with next.
https://www.amazon.com/HiFiBerry-6009-DAC-Pro/dp/B01MF77LH9#...
https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/#boards
EDIT: Amazon reviewers seem to think the sound quality is extremely good for the price. I guess I know what I'll be playing with next.
https://www.amazon.com/HiFiBerry-6009-DAC-Pro/dp/B01MF77LH9#...
I put on of these on a raspberry pi zero w and it sounded great to my (non-audiophile) ears.
Genuine question. Aren't most mics now USB anyway? At least any mic that is better that a 5 euro one?
There are entry level mics that are USB, but professional mics have XLR outs with a hot, cold, and ground out, i.e. balanced output. You then need some sort of an audio interface like a Scarlet 2i2 to convert and connect it to your computer. An interface can also provide things like phantom power which condensers (a type of mic) require.
Generally speaking sound cards for regular computers aren't very good, so I'd bet the pi's is probably close to non-existent. You'd want some sort of DAC/ADC anyway. For listening purposes I've used a Fiio E9(or 7?) dac, and now I use a schiit stack.
Generally speaking sound cards for regular computers aren't very good, so I'd bet the pi's is probably close to non-existent. You'd want some sort of DAC/ADC anyway. For listening purposes I've used a Fiio E9(or 7?) dac, and now I use a schiit stack.
Most professional mics have XLR connectors. Condenser mics require phantom power as well (unless they are battery-powered) which a "normal" 3.5mm audio jack will not provide.
The poster can't possibly expect the RPi people to include an XLR input.
Agreed, I'm not sure what they want out of the rpi.
If it's only 1-2 (xlr) mics, I would use a Scarlet 2i2 audio interface if possible and connect via its usb out. Although I have no idea how well it works with raspbian / ARM operating systems. There may be another type of interface that works with the rpi.
Either way, this is rather niche and goes beyond the rpi is intended for. You can still achieve rather good sound on a budget with a usb microphone depending on the room setup, etc.
If it's only 1-2 (xlr) mics, I would use a Scarlet 2i2 audio interface if possible and connect via its usb out. Although I have no idea how well it works with raspbian / ARM operating systems. There may be another type of interface that works with the rpi.
Either way, this is rather niche and goes beyond the rpi is intended for. You can still achieve rather good sound on a budget with a usb microphone depending on the room setup, etc.
It's strange how since the Raspberry Pi is so capable now, people expect them to build in all kinds of professional features into a $35 educational computer (PXE boot, pro audio, etc.).
The Pi can network boot.
I think maybe the 4 dropped that feature or maybe they're adding it via firmware? I remember reading a story about a company hosting dedicated servers on Raspberry Pis and complaining how they couldn't network boot on the 4, which is just ridiculous.
It's not implemented at launch, but the boot loader code is no longer in ROM so can be changed, and they said they will bring network booting later this year.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberry...
"Support for these additional bootmodes will be added in the future via optional bootloader updates. The current schedule is to release PXE boot first, then USB boot."
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberry...
"Support for these additional bootmodes will be added in the future via optional bootloader updates. The current schedule is to release PXE boot first, then USB boot."
They released the 4 without netboot and USB boot. The rough timeline that I read regarding firmware updates indicates that network boot will be done in a couple of weeks and USB boot will be done in about six weeks.
PC 3.5 millimeter jacks do have a DC bias similar to phantom power, it’s just lower.
Not exactly. XLR mics, as mentioned above, have a balanced output which needs to be connected to a balanced input. The 3.5mm "plug-in power" mics are unbalanced.
Phantom power is usually 48V, sometimes 12V, and rarely some voltage in between.
Phantom power is usually 48V, sometimes 12V, and rarely some voltage in between.
Apparently there's a HAT for that...
https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/hifiberry-dac-pro-xlr/
https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/hifiberry-dac-pro-xlr/
Most profesionnal microphone uses XLR connectors. USB microphones alreaded proces the raw signal somewhat (at least an analog to digital conversion step); usually you want dedicated hardware for that.
There are good quality USB soundcards to be had these days - most with connectors for external mics. This allows you to control the a/d step completely.
I use and recommend the Samsun Q2U, a SM58-clone which has both XLR and USB. (There's an AudioTechnica version of it too I believe.)
Most microphones used in audio production are passive with usually an XLR out, so you either need an active amplifier on the device or a usb audio interface in between
So you want to use an analog microphone with the Raspberry Pi? Why?
As far as I know there are three kinds of microphones:
* The cheap analog ones, can be USB or audio jack. Presumably you want one of these?
* The digital ones, USB. Even some MEMS microphone chips now come integrated with amplifier and ADC. This can be almost as cheap as the preceding option, but can also be high quality; seems like the best option.
* The XLR proffesional microphones. You probably do not need or want this, assuming you will use just one microphone per Pi.
As far as I know there are three kinds of microphones:
* The cheap analog ones, can be USB or audio jack. Presumably you want one of these?
* The digital ones, USB. Even some MEMS microphone chips now come integrated with amplifier and ADC. This can be almost as cheap as the preceding option, but can also be high quality; seems like the best option.
* The XLR proffesional microphones. You probably do not need or want this, assuming you will use just one microphone per Pi.
Not an analog mic; analog in/out from a MOTU UltraLite Mk4
Sorry, if you have an UltraLite why do you need analogue I/O on the Pi?
A Behringer UCA202 or UCA222 will admirably handle line-level ins and outs for about thirty dollars. If you're just mixing voice for a podcast I would start there. (In terms of audio quality there is a lot to be said for using an external USB adapter)
It's Linux so the setup is a little fiddly (or at least it was with piCorePlayer) for reasons that have nothing to do with the hardware, but it works fine with the Pi.
It's Linux so the setup is a little fiddly (or at least it was with piCorePlayer) for reasons that have nothing to do with the hardware, but it works fine with the Pi.
There's such a tiny amount of people who want audio-in, can't use a USB adapter, but want to use an RPi that I am pretty certain this will never be addressed.
Would be nice if the audio connector was at least TRRS.
It is TRRS. See for instance https://www.raspberrypi-spy.co.uk/2014/07/raspberry-pi-model... (found with a quick web search).
It is, the sleeve carries the composite video signal. RasPi is intended to be usable for people from all sorts of economic backgrounds; there are still places where it's much more likely to have access to an old CRT than a modern monitor.