Ask HN: How do you manage your manager?
One of the things that is not taught in university or talked about enough in our industry is managing your manager. I am asking this because I was recently asked by my manager not to give talks in really difficult to get in industry events, despite of getting an acceptance. While I like the company I work for, it seems the un-preached way of managing the manager is to have a thick skin. How true is this? I'm also curious to know how you manage your manager?
149 comments
If you focus on this at the point where you aren't getting what you want its too late. You need to build a relationship of trust before you ask for an exception or special request (in the eye of the manager not you).
Your manager should know the following:
- That if there is a problem you will always come to him/her first not try and work around him
- That he can count on you to do what needs to be done. You will go out of your way for her. If you've ever said "this isn't my job" then you will have only an adversarial relationship.
- That you understand what his/her boss wants, and therefore can exercise good judgement in using whatever leeway you are asking for.
Of all of these, that last point is the most important. You should intimately understand why they consider a conference talk to be something negative. Your manager should know you understand that and can therefore trust you. The fact you don't understand why they are against this conference talk is the root of the failure.
Note that the relationship should be reciprocal. I'm not saying be a slave to your boss, but if you want anything other than the traditional boss/subordinate relationship you need to have trust you have each others backs.
Your manager should know the following:
- That if there is a problem you will always come to him/her first not try and work around him
- That he can count on you to do what needs to be done. You will go out of your way for her. If you've ever said "this isn't my job" then you will have only an adversarial relationship.
- That you understand what his/her boss wants, and therefore can exercise good judgement in using whatever leeway you are asking for.
Of all of these, that last point is the most important. You should intimately understand why they consider a conference talk to be something negative. Your manager should know you understand that and can therefore trust you. The fact you don't understand why they are against this conference talk is the root of the failure.
Note that the relationship should be reciprocal. I'm not saying be a slave to your boss, but if you want anything other than the traditional boss/subordinate relationship you need to have trust you have each others backs.
That he can count on you to do what needs to be done. You will go out of your way for her. If you've ever said "this isn't my job" then you will have only an adversarial relationship.
True to the extent that it is actually related to your job in a larger sense and doing so won't adversely affect your ability to do your 'real' job. Many managers will just keeping adding more and more responsibilities to their 'best' workers until they either start saying "no", quit or burn out, often without any malice or ill intent.
That being said there are better ways of phrasing it than "this isn't my job". Saying something along the lines of "if I do that I won't have time to finish X by next Tuesday as I promised. It might be worth checking with Dave and his team if they have someone who can work on it. Otherwise I'll be happy to do it, as long as you're OK with pushing X back a week".
True to the extent that it is actually related to your job in a larger sense and doing so won't adversely affect your ability to do your 'real' job. Many managers will just keeping adding more and more responsibilities to their 'best' workers until they either start saying "no", quit or burn out, often without any malice or ill intent.
That being said there are better ways of phrasing it than "this isn't my job". Saying something along the lines of "if I do that I won't have time to finish X by next Tuesday as I promised. It might be worth checking with Dave and his team if they have someone who can work on it. Otherwise I'll be happy to do it, as long as you're OK with pushing X back a week".
> That being said there are better ways of phrasing it than "this isn't my job". Saying something along the lines of "if I do that I won't have time to finish X by next Tuesday as I promised. It might be worth checking with Dave and his team if they have someone who can work on it. Otherwise I'll be happy to do it, as long as you're OK with pushing X back a week".
Your whole comment was spot-on, but this part in particular resonated with me.
Over my relatively short career, there have been waves of being overloaded and then feeling like I had a handle on things. Whenever it’s been the latter, I can usually trace it back to being consistent with giving folks the simple cause and effect of what they’re asking of me. It helps that I happen to enjoy basically all the work (even remotely) relevant to my role, so when someone asks me for something (for perhaps the 10th time that day), I kindly say that I’d be more than happy to do that “..but this is what that will mean for the first 9 things you asked me for today..”.
I’ve found this to be an organic, effective way of filtering out priorities from background noise without creating that alienation between you and your boss/coworkers that was mentioned further up.
Your whole comment was spot-on, but this part in particular resonated with me.
Over my relatively short career, there have been waves of being overloaded and then feeling like I had a handle on things. Whenever it’s been the latter, I can usually trace it back to being consistent with giving folks the simple cause and effect of what they’re asking of me. It helps that I happen to enjoy basically all the work (even remotely) relevant to my role, so when someone asks me for something (for perhaps the 10th time that day), I kindly say that I’d be more than happy to do that “..but this is what that will mean for the first 9 things you asked me for today..”.
I’ve found this to be an organic, effective way of filtering out priorities from background noise without creating that alienation between you and your boss/coworkers that was mentioned further up.
> "Otherwise I'll be happy to do it, as long as you're OK with pushing X back a week"
While I agree with your sentiment, this only works in a workplace where management is willing to adjust deadlines and expectations in these situations. I've seen and experienced (bad) managers with a mindset of "Just get it done" or worse. It's usually a great sign that it's time to move on.
While I agree with your sentiment, this only works in a workplace where management is willing to adjust deadlines and expectations in these situations. I've seen and experienced (bad) managers with a mindset of "Just get it done" or worse. It's usually a great sign that it's time to move on.
>>Many managers will just keeping adding more and more responsibilities to their 'best' workers until they either start saying "no", quit or burn out, often without any malice or ill intent.
I consider such people total failure as managers and try to avoid.
I consider such people total failure as managers and try to avoid.
When I'm in the employee seat, I try to avoid managers that use blanket statements of people. The 'best' workers, where everyone -- including their manager -- goes when they need the hard questions answered, will usually quietly exit. They prefer not to cause a big scene, knowing their value. Value usually has a big catalyst in this, often appearing sudden and unexpected, exit.
Some of these 'total failures' will go on to outdo even their own expectations. Some will do as you prophesize and 'fail' in their burnout, get fired and fade away. The strong ones will come back from it. People quit people, not jobs.
Some of these 'total failures' will go on to outdo even their own expectations. Some will do as you prophesize and 'fail' in their burnout, get fired and fade away. The strong ones will come back from it. People quit people, not jobs.
>People quit people, not jobs.
To be fair, I've seen organizations so dysfunctional that even good managers could not protect their people from ambient shittiness. Below certain threshold there is no salvation for organization.
To be fair, I've seen organizations so dysfunctional that even good managers could not protect their people from ambient shittiness. Below certain threshold there is no salvation for organization.
I find the biggest mistake people make is that they think they're getting rewarded for what they did. That isn't how it works.
Think of it. When you go into an electronics store looking for a new TV, do you give the salesperson money based on what he did for you in the past ? You pay for expected future benefit. That's what you select the TV for.
Then think about it from a freelancer hiring process. Freelancers, like employees, are paid before they do anything (or at least the rewards are negotiated).
So the way to get maximum benefit for your job is to slowly improve, but stay far away from your top performance (and maybe you'll actually have enough energy left to have a hobby). You want planned obsolescence tactics, for yourself. Version 2.0 is just around the corner ! Do you want it ?
So the correct way to think about this is "let's talk about what you'd like me to do". I would shy away from the definiteness in those statements, for 2 reasons. Firstly you're unable to make those assessments reliable (so think about it, you're saying, money now, TV comes in 2 weeks, then deliver a substandard model in 2 weeks. If there is one way to turn the most kind person in the world against you, this is it). Secondly, you want to help them to make a decision. You have information they don't have. They have information you don't have. The best move is likely the one you figure out together.
Think of it. When you go into an electronics store looking for a new TV, do you give the salesperson money based on what he did for you in the past ? You pay for expected future benefit. That's what you select the TV for.
Then think about it from a freelancer hiring process. Freelancers, like employees, are paid before they do anything (or at least the rewards are negotiated).
So the way to get maximum benefit for your job is to slowly improve, but stay far away from your top performance (and maybe you'll actually have enough energy left to have a hobby). You want planned obsolescence tactics, for yourself. Version 2.0 is just around the corner ! Do you want it ?
So the correct way to think about this is "let's talk about what you'd like me to do". I would shy away from the definiteness in those statements, for 2 reasons. Firstly you're unable to make those assessments reliable (so think about it, you're saying, money now, TV comes in 2 weeks, then deliver a substandard model in 2 weeks. If there is one way to turn the most kind person in the world against you, this is it). Secondly, you want to help them to make a decision. You have information they don't have. They have information you don't have. The best move is likely the one you figure out together.
This is just fantastic advice!
Edit to add: If you're wondering why your supervisor might be reticent to allow you to talk I can think of a couple of potential reasons. - They're worried you'll unintentionally leak something - They're worried you'll get hired - They're threatened by you - They want you focused
.... But the easiest way to find out is just to ask.
Edit to add: If you're wondering why your supervisor might be reticent to allow you to talk I can think of a couple of potential reasons. - They're worried you'll unintentionally leak something - They're worried you'll get hired - They're threatened by you - They want you focused
.... But the easiest way to find out is just to ask.
This is gold and should be treated as such. Following these steps can make your work life very easy.
However, if you really feel like you are right and your boss is wrong then I have some machiavellian advice for the workplace.
1. No one will give you anything because you just asked nicely.
2. Everyone is out for themselves, PERIOD.
If you want more money, a new chair, better tools you have to create some pressure for your boss that can be eliviated by them giving you the thing you want. Example, you don't ask for more money, you make yourself semi-indespensible and then get another offer and say you're leaving. The same can be made of any situation.
The main idea behind this is that there has to be some benefit for your boss other than making you happy. If he can't see the benefit, create a situation who's solution is the outcome you want to see.
DISCLAIMER: I work with people like this, it's game of thrones level kool aid drinking. Know that you will make your life much more difficult and stressful, but it will work.
So either do what the other guy said and be nice, build a genuine relationship with your boss where they TRUST you and your judgement. Or be prepared to go to war!
However, if you really feel like you are right and your boss is wrong then I have some machiavellian advice for the workplace.
1. No one will give you anything because you just asked nicely.
2. Everyone is out for themselves, PERIOD.
If you want more money, a new chair, better tools you have to create some pressure for your boss that can be eliviated by them giving you the thing you want. Example, you don't ask for more money, you make yourself semi-indespensible and then get another offer and say you're leaving. The same can be made of any situation.
The main idea behind this is that there has to be some benefit for your boss other than making you happy. If he can't see the benefit, create a situation who's solution is the outcome you want to see.
DISCLAIMER: I work with people like this, it's game of thrones level kool aid drinking. Know that you will make your life much more difficult and stressful, but it will work.
So either do what the other guy said and be nice, build a genuine relationship with your boss where they TRUST you and your judgement. Or be prepared to go to war!
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Good advice, I picked up some good phraseology for parts of it from the military:
Your "1 up" and "2 up" (i.e your manager, and their manager) - what is your manager working towards, what is the context in which they are operating. Understanding that can play a large part in helping to exercise the good judgement, especially things to potentially flag up early.
Appreciate they're context switching more frequently, launching straight into a complex issue you haven't discussed for a few days is going to cause a massive page fault. Give their brain a chance to get into gear, a quick refresher or catchup can help. Quick being 60 seconds.
Your "1 up" and "2 up" (i.e your manager, and their manager) - what is your manager working towards, what is the context in which they are operating. Understanding that can play a large part in helping to exercise the good judgement, especially things to potentially flag up early.
Appreciate they're context switching more frequently, launching straight into a complex issue you haven't discussed for a few days is going to cause a massive page fault. Give their brain a chance to get into gear, a quick refresher or catchup can help. Quick being 60 seconds.
agree. Especially with #3 "understand what boss wants"
From the way OP phrased the question, it sounded like the OP felt the manager "owed" the OP.
As in, OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a "constitutional right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him go.
It's a very childish way of viewing the world. As in, I deserve to go to Disneyland. My mom won't let me, so I will now get a "thick skin" to "manage her". An adult would be thinking of helping mom pay the bills.
OP focuses on himself, on what he wants. There is no mention in the question of what the manager wants. It screams "me me me"
From the way OP phrased the question, it sounded like the OP felt the manager "owed" the OP.
As in, OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a "constitutional right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him go.
It's a very childish way of viewing the world. As in, I deserve to go to Disneyland. My mom won't let me, so I will now get a "thick skin" to "manage her". An adult would be thinking of helping mom pay the bills.
OP focuses on himself, on what he wants. There is no mention in the question of what the manager wants. It screams "me me me"
>OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a "constitutional right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him go. It's a very childish way of viewing the world.
OP's employer does not own them - they have a right to a private life.
While they certainly could not want OP identifying themselves as an agent of their employer when giving a talk, OP is entitled to use their free time / vacation days as they see fit.
OP's employer does not own them - they have a right to a private life.
While they certainly could not want OP identifying themselves as an agent of their employer when giving a talk, OP is entitled to use their free time / vacation days as they see fit.
For professional jobs which I suspect 99% of us on here have responsibility for your CPD (Professional Development) is down to you as much as it is to your employer.
The IEEE and similar bodies would not look very kindly on an employer that barred its members from CPD.
The only time an employer reasonably might not want to have the attendee use his employers name are TLA's or some companies at Blackhat conferences (if you work for a phone company for example)
The IEEE and similar bodies would not look very kindly on an employer that barred its members from CPD.
The only time an employer reasonably might not want to have the attendee use his employers name are TLA's or some companies at Blackhat conferences (if you work for a phone company for example)
That's true as long as they're not talking about their work at the conference. I assume they would be?
I've seen a very good QA engineer leave a company in exactly the same circumstances.
She wanted to do an external presentation on cutting edge security testing (nothing proprietary, just cutting edge) and the idiot manager wouldn't let her.
She asked why and was given bullshit reasons and so she asked her manager's manager which esentially let her do the presentation and agreed with her she was given bullshit reasons.
Nevertheless her direct manager kept a grudge and she eventually had to leave the company, I'm sure she went to a much better place after that.
She wanted to do an external presentation on cutting edge security testing (nothing proprietary, just cutting edge) and the idiot manager wouldn't let her.
She asked why and was given bullshit reasons and so she asked her manager's manager which esentially let her do the presentation and agreed with her she was given bullshit reasons.
Nevertheless her direct manager kept a grudge and she eventually had to leave the company, I'm sure she went to a much better place after that.
She sure didn’t go to a worse place...
What does talking "about their work" actually entail?. I use Cython to do parts of my job. I've given talks about using Cython, drawing on experiences and knowledge gained while doing my job. Was that talking about work?
The most interesting talks in conferences usually are case studies or explain how X was successfully used in a pratical project. It might be hard for OP to give such a talk unless he talked about his personal projects only.
If he is just giving a generic talk about lessons learned without explaining the intricate war stories, thats a dull talk. Those are commodities.
If he is just giving a generic talk about lessons learned without explaining the intricate war stories, thats a dull talk. Those are commodities.
Oh please, unless he developed something patent-worthy or something specific that could be used by direct competition then it's stupid not to let an employee talk about his (technical) work.
In 99.99% the cases where a manager would be so impertinent as to decide upon how the personal time of an employee be used, it's because the manager is a shitty manager and the employee is completely worthless in the eyes of the manager.
It would be a great insult if a manager treated me like that, because it would either imply that I'm too stupid not to know what I can and what I cannot reveal about my work or (the most likely reason) that even though the risk of my presentation hurting the company is minute, I'm so worthless that he thinks he can just tell me what I can and can't do in my free time.
In 99.99% the cases where a manager would be so impertinent as to decide upon how the personal time of an employee be used, it's because the manager is a shitty manager and the employee is completely worthless in the eyes of the manager.
It would be a great insult if a manager treated me like that, because it would either imply that I'm too stupid not to know what I can and what I cannot reveal about my work or (the most likely reason) that even though the risk of my presentation hurting the company is minute, I'm so worthless that he thinks he can just tell me what I can and can't do in my free time.
You're arguing against a strawman. In most cases, yes the manager probably is using wrong judgement, but there are valid cases where an employee would be disclosing information that could be used by competitors.
And I'd argue, the employee is tremendously valuable if that is the case, and probably should ask for a huge raise :)
And I'd argue, the employee is tremendously valuable if that is the case, and probably should ask for a huge raise :)
Agree 100%.
OP can go to conference, in his/her "own time". OP is an adult and does not need an OK from manager to go to the conference in his/her private life.
But, OP cannot expect the manager to give the OK. OP is not "entitled" to an automatic OK. The manager does not owe OP an OK.
OP can go to conference, in his/her "own time". OP is an adult and does not need an OK from manager to go to the conference in his/her private life.
But, OP cannot expect the manager to give the OK. OP is not "entitled" to an automatic OK. The manager does not owe OP an OK.
The manager isn't owed the option of declining OP's plans. The manager can decline to give leave, but if it's simply to prevent OP from attending something that the manager disapproves of, then it's sheer inappropriate cattiness.
Unless OP is at risk of exposing privileged information about their company, the manager has no business trying to interfere with OP.
Unless OP is at risk of exposing privileged information about their company, the manager has no business trying to interfere with OP.
True. Agree. I did not think of that possibility.
My employer claims ownership over all IP I produce. I can't give a talk on anything without clearing it first (though my manager would generally not be involved if it was not related to anything we do or use at work).
OP isn't perfectly unambiguous on the subject, but it's an industry conference, and since asking the manager is a thing, I think it's fair to assume that it's a work conference and that the manager actually has a legitimate say in this - participants in industry conferences are typically identified as representing their company.
Exactly my thoughts. If this to be done during normal work hours when this person would normally be in the office and working (almost certainly the case), then the manager would definitely need to approve this, especially since there is usually a cost associated with attending. If the employee is willing to pay themselves, that still leaves the issue of that time being utilized for non-approved activity during work hours. If the employee decides to take that day off and use their personal time they can certainly attend on their own dime, but the employer can still stipulate that they are explicitly not to represent the company at that event and not introduce themselves as an employee of the company. I don't know what the employer's reasons would be for this, but if that was their desire they are certainly allowed to choose who represents them and when.
Exactly. And I think it's safe to stop after the first statement. OP made no mention of offering to go on their own time and dime, and being rejected.
I use vacation days to attend conferences. It doesn't feel ethical for me to attend a conference during a workday.
It's complicate when I go to a conference, I am connecting with other people in my industry and representing my company, so it's worth it to them. I can actually learn things that are useful there.
The whole post is really about understanding what the boss wants, but #3 is something more specific so I want to iterate more on it:
A lot of people want to help their boss and have a reciprocal relationship. But the mere desire is not enough - you have to have the "street smarts" to be trusted. If you don't know what sort of things will get your boss into trouble with their boss then even if you have a good relationship its unlikely you'll get significant leeway. You are likely to cause problems out of ignorance and a tight leash is to protect you from that.
A lot of people want to help their boss and have a reciprocal relationship. But the mere desire is not enough - you have to have the "street smarts" to be trusted. If you don't know what sort of things will get your boss into trouble with their boss then even if you have a good relationship its unlikely you'll get significant leeway. You are likely to cause problems out of ignorance and a tight leash is to protect you from that.
- The manager and you have an equal relationship if you are any good at your job as you can replace the manager if you want to.
- This whole "you must submit to your boss" attitude beyond performing the assigned tasks is absurd.
- This whole "you must submit to your boss" attitude beyond performing the assigned tasks is absurd.
From the manager's POV, OP wants an exception to some policy (written or unwritten). If you want to get away with exceptions you need more than the normal adversarial relationship.
There is a larger argument about whether you should even need an exception for this case, but the remedy for that is to find another job if you can't live with it. However your working life will be a lot easier if you learn to work around inadequacies in your chain of management - no place of work will ever be perfect.
There is a larger argument about whether you should even need an exception for this case, but the remedy for that is to find another job if you can't live with it. However your working life will be a lot easier if you learn to work around inadequacies in your chain of management - no place of work will ever be perfect.
I think the thing that’s missing from this advice is a degree of compromise. Particularly if the policy is ‘unwritten’ aka the managers personal preference. Even with official policy many should be open to exceptions for good reason.
As an employee you won’t get latitude without pushing for it and often for minor things forgiveness can be better than permission. Which isn’t to say it’s a good idea to be adversarial or sneaky but that there is really no need to be walked on either.
As an employee you won’t get latitude without pushing for it and often for minor things forgiveness can be better than permission. Which isn’t to say it’s a good idea to be adversarial or sneaky but that there is really no need to be walked on either.
I didn't focus on OP because he already knows what he wants. Most people need help emphasizing with the other person not with their own wants/desires and compromise requires empathy. There are situations where someone is being over-accommodating and getting walked over but I didn't get that from the tone of the question.
Asking forgiveness later is another advanced level topic but it generally goes hand in hand with a good working relationship that has already been established. Without that its a quick way to get reprimanded or fired.
Remember, at the end of the day you are spending time on this specifically to get what you want. Its not an altruistic act for your manager.
Asking forgiveness later is another advanced level topic but it generally goes hand in hand with a good working relationship that has already been established. Without that its a quick way to get reprimanded or fired.
Remember, at the end of the day you are spending time on this specifically to get what you want. Its not an altruistic act for your manager.
Asking for forgiveness implies that there’s no formal rule or communicated informal rule. If you already asked you’re not asking for forgiveness. You can’t reprimand or fire someone for breaking a non-existent rule without looking like a total asshole which is going to destroy morale.
No that's not what "ask for forgiveness later" means in this context. It means you are breaking the rules and know you are doing so - however you think the net outcome is worth it. Doing this consistently and not getting fired is really an art.
> From the manager's POV, OP wants an exception to some policy (written or unwritten). If you want to get away with exceptions you need more than the normal adversarial relationship.
No workplace is ever perfect but there is a difference between a manager who understands the reality of the situation and a manager who is a problem that needs to be removed.
The fact you feel ignoring unwritten policies is "special treatment" likely puts you in the latter camp.
> However your working life will be a lot easier if you learn to work around inadequacies in your chain of management
Usually, it is easier to find another job than endure poor management for extended periods of time.
No workplace is ever perfect but there is a difference between a manager who understands the reality of the situation and a manager who is a problem that needs to be removed.
The fact you feel ignoring unwritten policies is "special treatment" likely puts you in the latter camp.
> However your working life will be a lot easier if you learn to work around inadequacies in your chain of management
Usually, it is easier to find another job than endure poor management for extended periods of time.
I've only ever been an IC. It's interesting you assumed I was a manager. I've learned the tricks to get almost total freedom at work and wanted to share. Quid pro quo is the name of the game in business. You have to give something to get something and trust is everything.
Cynicism will hold you back.
Cynicism will hold you back.
You basically quoted word for word multiple times what a petty and vindictive manager I worked for about a year said repeatedly in almost all your posts.
Sorry you had that experience. There are certainly cases where this advice is not appropriate and moving on is the right thing.
However accusing people you don't know of being a bad manager (especially when they aren't even a manager at all) is unnecessarily combative.
However accusing people you don't know of being a bad manager (especially when they aren't even a manager at all) is unnecessarily combative.
The only people I have seen give your advice are bad managers. :)
We aren't going to agree.
We aren't going to agree.
> As in, OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a "constitutional right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him go.
Well, free assembly and association are in fact corrolary to "free speech."
If an employee wants to go speak at a conference and the manager says, "Don't" then one of two things are happening:
0. The employer is abusive and undeserving.
1. The manager is attempting to take credit for the employee's work and should be called out.
There really aren't other scenarios; there's no valid reason to attempt to sabotage someone's career arc.
> OP focuses on himself, on what he wants. There is no mention in the question of what the manager wants. It screams "me me me"
Well evidently the manager in question isn't going to help the OP with their career, so someone's gotta do that. When a company aligns its interests with the career growth of their employees, then its a win-win. If it's pitched as an adversarial relationship, then there will be a winner and a loser. I cannot imagine why a good manager or intelligently run company would encourage such an adversarial relationship; it'll cause massive turnover.
Well, free assembly and association are in fact corrolary to "free speech."
If an employee wants to go speak at a conference and the manager says, "Don't" then one of two things are happening:
0. The employer is abusive and undeserving.
1. The manager is attempting to take credit for the employee's work and should be called out.
There really aren't other scenarios; there's no valid reason to attempt to sabotage someone's career arc.
> OP focuses on himself, on what he wants. There is no mention in the question of what the manager wants. It screams "me me me"
Well evidently the manager in question isn't going to help the OP with their career, so someone's gotta do that. When a company aligns its interests with the career growth of their employees, then its a win-win. If it's pitched as an adversarial relationship, then there will be a winner and a loser. I cannot imagine why a good manager or intelligently run company would encourage such an adversarial relationship; it'll cause massive turnover.
If the OP really wants to give a talk is because they are seeking for some kind of recognition or ego booster. This sounds very self centered and narcisistic.
There is often a positive career boost from presenting at a conference, which I guess you could so weirdly and pejoratively spin as "recognition" or even "self-centered". But not looking out for oneself is stupid and managers who don't look out for their employees' career development are bad managers.
Being weird and shitty and making claims of "narcissism" should come with evidence, or at least an argument.
Being weird and shitty and making claims of "narcissism" should come with evidence, or at least an argument.
> If you've ever said "this isn't my job" then you will have only an adversarial relationship.
I say that all the time to other managers and occasionally to my direct manager.
I'm the only software engineer on staff and we have a pisspoor IT provider, if it's windows I don't touch it because if I do I'll 'own' it and I'm busy enough.
I say that all the time to other managers and occasionally to my direct manager.
I'm the only software engineer on staff and we have a pisspoor IT provider, if it's windows I don't touch it because if I do I'll 'own' it and I'm busy enough.
That sounds pretty adversarial, you may have demonstrated GP’s argument.
Learning to say no when it's not in your interests isn't adversarial, as an old boss put it pithily "If you don't respect your time no one else will".
I was hired to write software, we pay a third party for desktop IT, if I then start doing IT technician tasks I'd be the most overpaid IT technician in the country and we'd still be paying for support.
I was hired to write software, we pay a third party for desktop IT, if I then start doing IT technician tasks I'd be the most overpaid IT technician in the country and we'd still be paying for support.
I think 1 is the worst thing ever and results in everyone being underpaid. People need to grow a pair and say that's not my job, pay me more. It's why everyone is underpaid.
I think a lot of advice here implicitly assumes the following:
1: You are invested in the company in a serious way.
2: Your company is invested in you and wishes the best for you.
However, I think those are quite optimistic assumptions. There's a inherent tension between what you want and what the company wants. The company wants to invest into you the minimum required to both keeping you as an employee as well as allowing you to function as an employee. However, you have an incentive to keep learning as much as possible and broadening your horizons.
A manager's task is (at least in part) to try to resolve this tension. Your manager, however, has apparently decided to side with the company on this. There could be several reasons for this.
It's possible that he's a through and through company man, who believes that the company will do right by him and all other employees and that it would not be beneficial for the company (and thus not for any of the employees of this company) were you to go give this talk.
Another possibility is that he believes that you will not complain when being told that your wishes do not matter. This is quite common in IT related businesses, since in general these people are more agreeable and less likely to voice their opposition to someone they believe to have authority over them.
A third option will be is that he is afraid that if you are to give this talk and network at the event, you may find out that you're not being respected properly in your current company and may try to find your luck elsewhere.
I'd say that if you want to have a chance to establish a long-term working relationship with this manager, you need to find out what your manager's motivation is from keeping you from such events and based on that formulate a strategy for dealing with him/her.
1: You are invested in the company in a serious way.
2: Your company is invested in you and wishes the best for you.
However, I think those are quite optimistic assumptions. There's a inherent tension between what you want and what the company wants. The company wants to invest into you the minimum required to both keeping you as an employee as well as allowing you to function as an employee. However, you have an incentive to keep learning as much as possible and broadening your horizons.
A manager's task is (at least in part) to try to resolve this tension. Your manager, however, has apparently decided to side with the company on this. There could be several reasons for this.
It's possible that he's a through and through company man, who believes that the company will do right by him and all other employees and that it would not be beneficial for the company (and thus not for any of the employees of this company) were you to go give this talk.
Another possibility is that he believes that you will not complain when being told that your wishes do not matter. This is quite common in IT related businesses, since in general these people are more agreeable and less likely to voice their opposition to someone they believe to have authority over them.
A third option will be is that he is afraid that if you are to give this talk and network at the event, you may find out that you're not being respected properly in your current company and may try to find your luck elsewhere.
I'd say that if you want to have a chance to establish a long-term working relationship with this manager, you need to find out what your manager's motivation is from keeping you from such events and based on that formulate a strategy for dealing with him/her.
> you need to find out what your manager's motivation is from keeping you from such events and based on that formulate a strategy for dealing with him/her.
That's a pretty adverserial approach. Why not understand the manager's motivation and then work with him/her?
The "adverserial-ness" is also apperant in the possible causes you raised for the manager's decision (he's a company man / he's taking advantage of the fact that you're agreeable / he doesn't want you to work elsewhere). There can be other reasons, even with a manager that's 100% on your side. For example, maybe he worked hard to get approval for you to go to that conference, even fought his supervisors, but at the end he lost? That's why the best advice is to ask him to explain the decision, and not to come to the conversation with any assumptions.
That's a pretty adverserial approach. Why not understand the manager's motivation and then work with him/her?
The "adverserial-ness" is also apperant in the possible causes you raised for the manager's decision (he's a company man / he's taking advantage of the fact that you're agreeable / he doesn't want you to work elsewhere). There can be other reasons, even with a manager that's 100% on your side. For example, maybe he worked hard to get approval for you to go to that conference, even fought his supervisors, but at the end he lost? That's why the best advice is to ask him to explain the decision, and not to come to the conversation with any assumptions.
Shouldn't the manager as a decent human being, upon so blatantly encroaching on another human being's personal time, be the one to explain himself and his reason for his refusal?
> There can be other reasons, even with a manager that's 100% on your side. For example, maybe he worked hard to get approval for you to go to that conference, even fought his supervisors, but at the end he lost? That's why the best advice is to ask him to explain the decision, and not to come to the conversation with any assumptions.
Fair enough. Maybe I should have said "managerial layers" when I said management.
Fair enough. Maybe I should have said "managerial layers" when I said management.
TBF a manager that tried to get approval but got refused usually won’t reject the original request without explaination.
It’s poisonning the relation with the managee, so if it’s by mistake or from good intent, it’s such a bad move that maybe it’s best to not expect them to have a positive impact going further.
If it’s just some misunderstanding, there is a clear communication problem anyway, so situation would still be dire.
It’s poisonning the relation with the managee, so if it’s by mistake or from good intent, it’s such a bad move that maybe it’s best to not expect them to have a positive impact going further.
If it’s just some misunderstanding, there is a clear communication problem anyway, so situation would still be dire.
> That's a pretty adverserial approach. Why not understand the manager's motivation and then work with him/her?
That we are here suggests a critical disconnect with the manager already, so that's already failed.
That we are here suggests a critical disconnect with the manager already, so that's already failed.
The manager just pissed on the employee from a great height. It's the manager's job to explain exactly why this was reasonable (and it probably wasn't).
Why were you asked to not give the talks? Context is everything.
Are you asking for the company to pay but the travel/training budget is insufficient? Sell your boss on why this is valuable to the company and why the budget should be expanded or funded some other way.
Does your manager not think you’re good enough to be giving the talk? Your options are probably to prove him/her wrong, get a better manager, or live with a manager who doesn’t trust/respect you.
If your manager is good, talk to him/her about the concerns and go from there. If your manager is not good, figure out a path that gets you a good manager. Staying with a bad manager is pretty much destined to end in a bad situation.
Are you asking for the company to pay but the travel/training budget is insufficient? Sell your boss on why this is valuable to the company and why the budget should be expanded or funded some other way.
Does your manager not think you’re good enough to be giving the talk? Your options are probably to prove him/her wrong, get a better manager, or live with a manager who doesn’t trust/respect you.
If your manager is good, talk to him/her about the concerns and go from there. If your manager is not good, figure out a path that gets you a good manager. Staying with a bad manager is pretty much destined to end in a bad situation.
ditto to this one, exactly what I would try to do with the same order.
OP did not tell us how his manager justified his refusal, BUT because of the way he formulated his question and my personal life experience, I'm very much inclined to believe that the manager simply gave not or bullshit/generic reasons as to why he won't let OP give the talk.
That the most common situation is the manager is a shitty person who realises that if by any minute chance OP's talk somehow hurt the company the implications are dire for the manager while if OP's talk do nothing bad for the company, there's nothing to gain for the manager/company -- therefore the manager chose not to allow OP to give the talk.
Which would prove the manager to be a verry shitty human being, just the kind that would elicit employees asking questions like "how do I manage my manager" on the internet.
That the most common situation is the manager is a shitty person who realises that if by any minute chance OP's talk somehow hurt the company the implications are dire for the manager while if OP's talk do nothing bad for the company, there's nothing to gain for the manager/company -- therefore the manager chose not to allow OP to give the talk.
Which would prove the manager to be a verry shitty human being, just the kind that would elicit employees asking questions like "how do I manage my manager" on the internet.
Why would the manager be a shitty person if they saw no upside for the company, possible downside, and decided against that action? If we were talking about a decision that didn't involve another human being and their desires, I suspect you might find this decision-making logic acceptable.
Perhaps you could explain why if there is no chance for the company to gain anything but a non-zero risk of the company's status, position, brand value, etc. being damaged, why is this a bad decision and the manager a "very shitty human being"?
Perhaps you could explain why if there is no chance for the company to gain anything but a non-zero risk of the company's status, position, brand value, etc. being damaged, why is this a bad decision and the manager a "very shitty human being"?
Because its the man's spare time and since he's not a child I would expect enough trust from the manager that the employee would not do any damage to the company.
There's a non-zero risk to the company if the man gets into a bar fight, there's a non-zero risk to the company if the man crosses the street and gets run over by a truck on his way to work each morning.
There's a non-zero risk to the company if the man gets into a bar fight, there's a non-zero risk to the company if the man crosses the street and gets run over by a truck on his way to work each morning.
First of all, it is almost certainly not his spare time. Nearly all of these events are held on weekdays during normal business hours. So this guy probably requires permission to not be doing his regular job to go to this. Second, there are usually costs associated with attendance. Many employers pay them and perhaps this company didn't want to. But for the sake or argument, let's assume this is held on a weekend and the guy pays out of his own pocket to attend. He's still there representing the company and the company has every right to choose how they are represented and by whom. It's not like he's attending Comic-Con. He's most definitely representing the company, even as a mere guest - doubly so as an actual speaker. The company can choose to say "no, he's not representing us". Maybe he's a really smart dude but a shitty speaker or someone with no social skills or stage presence.
There's a non-zero risk to the company if the man gets into a bar fight, there's a non-zero risk to the company if the man crosses the street and gets run over by a truck on his way to work each morning.
Yeah, but he's not representing the company in such a scenario. And in rare events, when such unflattering incidents like bar fights do actually make front page news for some reason, people are sometimes fired because of it. You know why? Because of this exact same logic.
There's a non-zero risk to the company if the man gets into a bar fight, there's a non-zero risk to the company if the man crosses the street and gets run over by a truck on his way to work each morning.
Yeah, but he's not representing the company in such a scenario. And in rare events, when such unflattering incidents like bar fights do actually make front page news for some reason, people are sometimes fired because of it. You know why? Because of this exact same logic.
> the most common situation is the manager is a shitty person
You don’t know nearly enough about the situation to say this. Most managers are not shitty people.
You don’t know nearly enough about the situation to say this. Most managers are not shitty people.
You are right, I am jumping to conclusions based on what I'm reading between the lines: I presume this is not the first time the manager was shitty to OP since OP asked it in general terms how should he manage his manager, and I am also presuming the manager did not give satisfactory explanation for his refusal or offer a reasonable compromise(like "you can go, but you must never mention the company, our clients, our business etc).
I am horrified by the complete lack of empathy and emotional intelligence of such managers.
Won't OP just not hide such "silly" matters from the manager if whatever the matter is OP gets a slap on the wrist?
Is it indicative of good managerial skills that OP felt he should ask about the matter on the internet and not the manager himself?
I am horrified by the complete lack of empathy and emotional intelligence of such managers.
Won't OP just not hide such "silly" matters from the manager if whatever the matter is OP gets a slap on the wrist?
Is it indicative of good managerial skills that OP felt he should ask about the matter on the internet and not the manager himself?
> * I presume this is not the first time the manager was shitty to OP since OP asked it in general terms how should he manage his manager*
This is not a terrible assumption, but assuming malice on the manager’s part is. Maybe it is a shitty manager. Or maybe the guy asking is a shitty employee who’s constantly screwing up. Maybe it’s something else entirely. There is too little information here to say.
> Is it indicative of good managerial skills that OP felt he should ask about the matter on the internet and not the manager himself?
It’s indicative of a poor relationship. I can’t say whether the issue is with the manager, the individual, or both.
This is not a terrible assumption, but assuming malice on the manager’s part is. Maybe it is a shitty manager. Or maybe the guy asking is a shitty employee who’s constantly screwing up. Maybe it’s something else entirely. There is too little information here to say.
> Is it indicative of good managerial skills that OP felt he should ask about the matter on the internet and not the manager himself?
It’s indicative of a poor relationship. I can’t say whether the issue is with the manager, the individual, or both.
You've jumped all the way to trying to micromanage your boss, which is inherently a politically explosive undertaking, but where you actually should be is just asking much more straightforward questions: why don't they want you to give the talk? Maybe they're trying to sabotage your career progress, but maybe there are legitimate concerns about the content of the talk (e.g., exposing secret sauce internal methods to competitors in an extremely public way) or maybe they just don't want to grant the budget to send you.
To expand beyond this, generally the way to "manage" your boss is to get to the point where they don't have to manage you. While you won't formally or hierarchically be on an equal footing with them, informally you will be because at that point you can have a continuous ongoing relationship based on mutual trust.
To expand beyond this, generally the way to "manage" your boss is to get to the point where they don't have to manage you. While you won't formally or hierarchically be on an equal footing with them, informally you will be because at that point you can have a continuous ongoing relationship based on mutual trust.
Yes, most commenters here are missing a legitimate concern about sharing confidential information in a public forum. If the talk is "How we do X at Y Inc" there's a legitimate concern; if the talk is "Learning to Love CSS in JS" then the manager may have ulterior motives.
My advice to OP: ask to walk through your presentation deck with your manager, both to get feedback and buy-in. Managers will be more invested in your success if they feel invested in what you're doing. (Suggestion: offer to plug your company's job openings with your manager's contact info.)
My advice to OP: ask to walk through your presentation deck with your manager, both to get feedback and buy-in. Managers will be more invested in your success if they feel invested in what you're doing. (Suggestion: offer to plug your company's job openings with your manager's contact info.)
Remember that one step up from you, your manager is just another employee trying to please his manager. So try to understand what your manager's manager needs from your manager and focus on what you can do to help him deliver that. Make your manager feel like you're on his team, supporting him with whatever unreasonable demands his manager is placing on him.
Another point is to try to understand where demands are actually coming from. If your manager is placing 'unreasonable' demands on you, is it entirely his idea or is it because his bosses boss is placing unreasonable demands on his boss. Knowing this obviously won't make it easier to deal with those demands, but it does make it easier to put together and effective counterargument when you know whom you're actually arguing with. The most effective argument to make for why you cannot have the database migration done by the end of June is heavily dependent on who is actually demanding it be done by the end June and why it's so important to them.
Another point is to try to understand where demands are actually coming from. If your manager is placing 'unreasonable' demands on you, is it entirely his idea or is it because his bosses boss is placing unreasonable demands on his boss. Knowing this obviously won't make it easier to deal with those demands, but it does make it easier to put together and effective counterargument when you know whom you're actually arguing with. The most effective argument to make for why you cannot have the database migration done by the end of June is heavily dependent on who is actually demanding it be done by the end June and why it's so important to them.
Agreed. Help your manager succeed and they in turn will help you.
I've done this many times and I would say it's only reciprocated around 50% of the time. It's more nuanced than helping them succeed and expecting them to help you.
Or even better, help your managers manager to succeed, 'dispite' your manager. That way you can get your managers position. Saw this happen multiple times.
Welcome to the corporate world.
Welcome to the corporate world.
Your question is not about "managing your manager." This is about your manager trying to sabotage your career.
Give the talks, quit if you have to. You don't need a manager who is not your advocate. I say this as someone responsible for many more management functions in tech than a technical tasks now. If your manager doesn't help you, tell HIS manager and be open: you don't need to accept this.
Bad management is a poison. Selfish managers need to be lanced out of a company like the malignant boils that they are. Take advantage of a seller's market for technical skills while you can, because there is no promise that you'll have this kind of agency in a year.
Give the talks, quit if you have to. You don't need a manager who is not your advocate. I say this as someone responsible for many more management functions in tech than a technical tasks now. If your manager doesn't help you, tell HIS manager and be open: you don't need to accept this.
Bad management is a poison. Selfish managers need to be lanced out of a company like the malignant boils that they are. Take advantage of a seller's market for technical skills while you can, because there is no promise that you'll have this kind of agency in a year.
I agree that you should seek out a manager that wants to help you advance in your career, but you don't have enough context to judge the manager in this particular case. Perhaps OP is spending too much time speaking at conferences and not hitting his other agreed objectives. Perhaps there is a critical project launch that OP is leading during the timeframe of the conference and it's just not feasible in this isolated instance. Etc.
None of that is material to the judgement here. The fact that the disconnect exists as it stands is evidence of a total breakdown in the manager-associate relationship.
You asserted, without evidence and in absolute terms, that the manager is trying to "sabotage" OP's career, advocated that he quit his job, and that the manager is "bad" and "selfish." That's a lot of assumptions based on four short sentences.
All we really know is 1) OP wants to give a talk at an industry event and 2) his manager asked him not to.
Yes, there seems to be a disconnect—on the OP's side. There may be one on the manager's side also; we don't know. It is also not the responsibility of the manager alone to make the relationship work. People have their own interpretation of events, and ultimately none of us commenting knows what efforts the manager has made and what OP's interpretation of those efforts was.
All we really know is 1) OP wants to give a talk at an industry event and 2) his manager asked him not to.
Yes, there seems to be a disconnect—on the OP's side. There may be one on the manager's side also; we don't know. It is also not the responsibility of the manager alone to make the relationship work. People have their own interpretation of events, and ultimately none of us commenting knows what efforts the manager has made and what OP's interpretation of those efforts was.
I am lucky enough to have a good manager with whom I can have very open conversations.
We often talk about things we could improve at our company. Many times it is fixing a bug or improving the UX. Sometimes, it's a process that needs to be built or tweaked. At other times, it's a habit that is counter-productive or something that one of us does that could be done better.
It's a two way street. Just because he is my manager does not mean that we should not talk about things that he needs to change in order for everything to work better. We are equal human beings and differ in areas of responsibility at the company we work for. I am responsible for building software and fixing it, and he is responsible for making sure that I, and others like me, have all the resources necessary to do our job. He is not superior to me and I am not superior to him. We all have flaws and we all strive to be better people.
Conversations where we talk about how each of us can improve naturally have a small level of discomfort. Special care must be given when pointing out how someone can improve. Knowing that there are good intentions behind such feedback makes it ever so easier.
We often talk about things we could improve at our company. Many times it is fixing a bug or improving the UX. Sometimes, it's a process that needs to be built or tweaked. At other times, it's a habit that is counter-productive or something that one of us does that could be done better.
It's a two way street. Just because he is my manager does not mean that we should not talk about things that he needs to change in order for everything to work better. We are equal human beings and differ in areas of responsibility at the company we work for. I am responsible for building software and fixing it, and he is responsible for making sure that I, and others like me, have all the resources necessary to do our job. He is not superior to me and I am not superior to him. We all have flaws and we all strive to be better people.
Conversations where we talk about how each of us can improve naturally have a small level of discomfort. Special care must be given when pointing out how someone can improve. Knowing that there are good intentions behind such feedback makes it ever so easier.
I am in this exact situation. It's one of the best places to be in as an employee IMO.
>I am asking this because I was recently asked by my manager not to give talks in really difficult to get in industry events, despite of getting an acceptance.
This is dumb. They are just afraid of losing you, possibly because you are under-compensated and they know it. Conventions are networking opportunities and you'll likely get approached if you make yourself available at a convention like this.
There may be a corporate reason (you showing up as an employee at a questionable convention), but you should have the freedom to go as an individual and not represent the company.
If my manager asked me to do that, I'd be on my way out.
As far as managing better managers goes: be honest, admit mistakes, give suggestions for improvement, and there is almost no management to be done. If they begin to rely on you too much without giving you something in return, talk it out to see if they can spread the burden or give you more pay.
This is dumb. They are just afraid of losing you, possibly because you are under-compensated and they know it. Conventions are networking opportunities and you'll likely get approached if you make yourself available at a convention like this.
There may be a corporate reason (you showing up as an employee at a questionable convention), but you should have the freedom to go as an individual and not represent the company.
If my manager asked me to do that, I'd be on my way out.
As far as managing better managers goes: be honest, admit mistakes, give suggestions for improvement, and there is almost no management to be done. If they begin to rely on you too much without giving you something in return, talk it out to see if they can spread the burden or give you more pay.
You've taken a very specific question/situation and vastly generalized it to "How do I manage my manager?" The answer is most likely, "Avoid doing it if possible," but why don't we instead begin (and maybe end) our manager-management course with the easier question, "How do I deal with the fact that my manager told me not to speak at a conference?"
If you're relying on the company for the conference in any way -- for example, they're paying your way, or you're going to talk about their technology (and even if you built it for them, it's usually still theirs) -- then the manager has the right to approve or disapprove. If neither of those two elements are present, and there are no others that I haven't mentioned, (or you can quickly make it so), then the manager needs to be told gently to fuck off, and why.
If you're relying on the company for the conference in any way -- for example, they're paying your way, or you're going to talk about their technology (and even if you built it for them, it's usually still theirs) -- then the manager has the right to approve or disapprove. If neither of those two elements are present, and there are no others that I haven't mentioned, (or you can quickly make it so), then the manager needs to be told gently to fuck off, and why.
You don't. As long as you work for someone else, that type of situations will always occur, to a larger or lesser degree.
As long as you work under someone else's supervision, you will never have the freedom to do whatever you want, like for example give a conference talk or a million other things.
I'm sure it's not only the conference talk, right? There are other things. Instead of investing so much time trying to navigate the relation with your manager and always ending up in situations like this, I suggest trying to use that same energy and effort and dedicate to try and find a way to become your own boss.
You will then have the freedom to do whatever you want each and every single day, and won't have to spend all that time and energy constantly convincing someone of things that are often for their own good.
As long as you work under someone else's supervision, you will never have the freedom to do whatever you want, like for example give a conference talk or a million other things.
I'm sure it's not only the conference talk, right? There are other things. Instead of investing so much time trying to navigate the relation with your manager and always ending up in situations like this, I suggest trying to use that same energy and effort and dedicate to try and find a way to become your own boss.
You will then have the freedom to do whatever you want each and every single day, and won't have to spend all that time and energy constantly convincing someone of things that are often for their own good.
This is quite childish advice. Is this your solution all disagreements?
"You will then have the freedom to do whatever you want each and every single day, and won't have to spend all that time and energy constantly convincing someone of things that are often for their own good."
I wish!
Constantly convincing someone of things that are often for their own good is basically the definition of what you do when working for yourself, or should I say when your working for you clients/trying to acquire new clients.
"You will then have the freedom to do whatever you want each and every single day, and won't have to spend all that time and energy constantly convincing someone of things that are often for their own good."
I wish!
Constantly convincing someone of things that are often for their own good is basically the definition of what you do when working for yourself, or should I say when your working for you clients/trying to acquire new clients.
There is an implicit assumption that working for yourself means working for medium to big clients, but that isn't always the case. What if you build a product and have hundreds or thousands of customers? They might leave a negative review here or there, but they aren't going to give a rip which conferences you go to.
Imagine building a business that passively generates half of your yearly spending. Now you just need to generate the other 50% of your yearly spending from "active" projects like jobs and medium-sized clients. It's not full independence, but I'll take it over being completely beholden to someone else.
It's not childish to take responsibility for your life, to carve your own path and gain greater degrees of autonomy. In fact, it's what fully developed adult human beings do.
Imagine building a business that passively generates half of your yearly spending. Now you just need to generate the other 50% of your yearly spending from "active" projects like jobs and medium-sized clients. It's not full independence, but I'll take it over being completely beholden to someone else.
It's not childish to take responsibility for your life, to carve your own path and gain greater degrees of autonomy. In fact, it's what fully developed adult human beings do.
I enjoy the give-and-take that comes with trying to guide a Customer toward what I perceive to be their best interests. Doing that with multiple Customers in parallel means that I have victories and defeats. That's heartening and engaging to me. I would find it very demoralizing to continue to engage that way with a single party over and over again. I found it that way back in the "bad old days" when I was an employee, and I'm certain I'd find it that way again.
When I talk about being self-employed I like to say that I traded having a single "boss" for multiple "bosses"-- one or more from each Customer. One thing that I've really enjoyed, to that end, is being able to cut my losses with a given Customer if the situation becomes untenable. That option wasn't so easy when I was an employee. An employer, in most of the US at least, has the freedom to be fickle at any time for arbitrary reasons. Being self-employed, to my mind, helps to level that playing field.
Being an employee amounts to running a business with a single Customer. If that Customer leaves you've suddenly got a business with no Customers. New Customer acquisition costs are very high (especially in the employer-provided health insurance world of US employment) and Customer loyalty can be very low. It's a precarious situation to me, not one I'd ever want to be in again, and not one I'd counsel someone to put themselves into.
When I talk about being self-employed I like to say that I traded having a single "boss" for multiple "bosses"-- one or more from each Customer. One thing that I've really enjoyed, to that end, is being able to cut my losses with a given Customer if the situation becomes untenable. That option wasn't so easy when I was an employee. An employer, in most of the US at least, has the freedom to be fickle at any time for arbitrary reasons. Being self-employed, to my mind, helps to level that playing field.
Being an employee amounts to running a business with a single Customer. If that Customer leaves you've suddenly got a business with no Customers. New Customer acquisition costs are very high (especially in the employer-provided health insurance world of US employment) and Customer loyalty can be very low. It's a precarious situation to me, not one I'd ever want to be in again, and not one I'd counsel someone to put themselves into.
In my experience, if you need to "manage the manager", it's not a good situation, do whatever you need to do for the short term to get through it, but be looking for something better at the same time.
Your manager should be someone that you can learn from, not someone who requires your management.
Your manager should be someone that you can learn from, not someone who requires your management.
> I am asking this because I was recently asked by my manager not to give talks in really difficult to get in industry events, despite of getting an acceptance.
Why?
You have basically two options here: genuinely work towards mutual benefit, or deceive and "manage up" and look out for your own interests while you work on finding a better manager with whom you believe you can genuinely work towards mutual benefit.
Many companies have a rotten culture and no other manager at the company will be really better. Many do not, and the idea of managing your manager is foreign to people who have only worked such places.
If your manager has a good reason (e.g., your talk is likely to reveal trade secrets), work with your manager, who should genuinely want the people they manage to be the best people they can be - including letting them find roles or employers they'd like better, because open headcount is better than continuing to employ an unhappy employee. If your manager is scared of having excellent employees, make plans to leave. Either that manager has internalized this fear, or the company's incentives for managers (i.e., the things on your manager's own performance and compensation review) discourage the manager from helping you grow, and neither of those situations is worth trying to solve. In the first case, you can try an internal transfer if company politics permits it; in the second, you probably need to find another company.
(If you need to deceive, I'd maybe go with something like, the event expected that I'd present and backing out would be bad for our company's reputation, but I'll avoid this in the future. Then go to the event and figure out who's hiring.)
Why?
You have basically two options here: genuinely work towards mutual benefit, or deceive and "manage up" and look out for your own interests while you work on finding a better manager with whom you believe you can genuinely work towards mutual benefit.
Many companies have a rotten culture and no other manager at the company will be really better. Many do not, and the idea of managing your manager is foreign to people who have only worked such places.
If your manager has a good reason (e.g., your talk is likely to reveal trade secrets), work with your manager, who should genuinely want the people they manage to be the best people they can be - including letting them find roles or employers they'd like better, because open headcount is better than continuing to employ an unhappy employee. If your manager is scared of having excellent employees, make plans to leave. Either that manager has internalized this fear, or the company's incentives for managers (i.e., the things on your manager's own performance and compensation review) discourage the manager from helping you grow, and neither of those situations is worth trying to solve. In the first case, you can try an internal transfer if company politics permits it; in the second, you probably need to find another company.
(If you need to deceive, I'd maybe go with something like, the event expected that I'd present and backing out would be bad for our company's reputation, but I'll avoid this in the future. Then go to the event and figure out who's hiring.)
A few points come to mind:
1) It is none of your company's business what you do in your spare time, as long as you don't attach their name to it. However, if you are going to events to give talks using their name, their funding, or with time you have committed to them, then they do have some say in it. Whether or not their requests are reasonable comes down to the next point...
2) As other comments have said, "managing your manager" implies a mismatch in the relationship. You should have open communications with your manager, and be able to talk through both positive and negative aspects of your situation. That isn't easy for all people, but if you approach it as a communication problem to resolve, it is easier to be positive about the process.
3) If you sincerely try to improve communications, negotiate perspectives, and just aren't able to get to a place where things are going well, you have a choice to make: Live with it, or leave. If you choose to live with it, that is when a 'thick skin' comes into play.
1) It is none of your company's business what you do in your spare time, as long as you don't attach their name to it. However, if you are going to events to give talks using their name, their funding, or with time you have committed to them, then they do have some say in it. Whether or not their requests are reasonable comes down to the next point...
2) As other comments have said, "managing your manager" implies a mismatch in the relationship. You should have open communications with your manager, and be able to talk through both positive and negative aspects of your situation. That isn't easy for all people, but if you approach it as a communication problem to resolve, it is easier to be positive about the process.
3) If you sincerely try to improve communications, negotiate perspectives, and just aren't able to get to a place where things are going well, you have a choice to make: Live with it, or leave. If you choose to live with it, that is when a 'thick skin' comes into play.
Thanks for the advice. I've been trying to improve communication on my end but somehow I feel it has not improved. Given the power dynamics in a manager/report relationship, I feel that with certain managers its more difficult to get on the same page.
I don't think managing your manager is a healthy way to think of things. You are there to support your company and team, and your manager enables this larger picture and should return support to every employee, including you. I think, as in most things, you need some empathy for his/her position and try to come to a common understanding. Talks are a fantastic way to boost your resume and soft skills, and they help you as an employee better practice talking to your team and enable you to better represent your team's ideas in big meetings with a crowd of stakeholders. Your manager should be sympathetic to this and be happy that you're passionate. On the other hand, when you speak at a conference, you are representing your company. If you say stupid things in your talk, you not only hurt yourself, but your company's reputation. I think the default policy at many big companies is to get explicit permission for each and every public thing you do like this, but usually managers just look the other way because its easier. Its possible your manager just wants to go by the book and not deal with the overhead of company policy, so the answer is no. You may want to discuss specifically why your manager isn't allowing you to present, and politely explain that you think it will level you up as an employee to be an even greater asset. Maybe suggest that you run the talk by them to make them feel better about what your are presenting, and even ask if its OK that you speak to HR or corporate to get the company's ground rules and make the extra time and effort in this regard so your manager doesn't have to.
Consulting and project/product management do teach these skills frequently. Additionally, the senior people at your company can probably discuss this at length, especially if they've worked at large companies (look for people 40+ if possible).
There are some general rules about managing your manager. One learn how they like to have information presented to them (Are they big on presentations? Emails? 1:1s?. Hint: it's probably not email). Are there specific things that they look for, ie former Mckinsey consultants tend to pick up small mistakes in presentations, some managers may have a thing about about grammar/spelling mistakes. When your company is hosting happy hours or events, go to them and mingle. NEVER talk badly about your manager. Always remember that your job is to make them look good. For example when you want to give talks at industry events, you need to pitch it as bringing more name recognition to the company and to the department. Benefits could be found in recruiting, easier time raising money, maybe more clients (IT'S FREE MARKETING for the company!)
PS Hopefully, you were smart enough to ask why he didn't want you to give talks at industry events (a potentially valid issue could be that you're distracted from the work you're being paid to do)
There are some general rules about managing your manager. One learn how they like to have information presented to them (Are they big on presentations? Emails? 1:1s?. Hint: it's probably not email). Are there specific things that they look for, ie former Mckinsey consultants tend to pick up small mistakes in presentations, some managers may have a thing about about grammar/spelling mistakes. When your company is hosting happy hours or events, go to them and mingle. NEVER talk badly about your manager. Always remember that your job is to make them look good. For example when you want to give talks at industry events, you need to pitch it as bringing more name recognition to the company and to the department. Benefits could be found in recruiting, easier time raising money, maybe more clients (IT'S FREE MARKETING for the company!)
PS Hopefully, you were smart enough to ask why he didn't want you to give talks at industry events (a potentially valid issue could be that you're distracted from the work you're being paid to do)
> asked by my manager not to give talks
This is really missing some context: were you asked to not give the talks because of their content? Were you denied budget to go to the events, which would be a completely different thing? What reason did your manager give for the request?
As a general point, you should consider what your manager wants to achieve, and to the extent it doesn't contradict your own goals or ethics, help them achieve that. If no such alignment is possible, CTRL+ALT+DEL.
This is really missing some context: were you asked to not give the talks because of their content? Were you denied budget to go to the events, which would be a completely different thing? What reason did your manager give for the request?
As a general point, you should consider what your manager wants to achieve, and to the extent it doesn't contradict your own goals or ethics, help them achieve that. If no such alignment is possible, CTRL+ALT+DEL.
Everybody has a time constant. That's the time it takes for them to accept a new or challenging idea. Figure out your manager's time constant.
If you say, "I'm giving a public talk" (or "We should move from Azure to AWS", or "We need a better defect tracking system" or whatever), it's human nature to resist. It's new. It's change.
Entrepreneurs often have long time constants. It's necessary for them to be stubborn, and stubbornness is generally a good personality trait when doing difficult things.
So, don't expect your manager to agree right away to your new idea. Give her at least her time constant to think it over.
How do you do this? It depends on the manager's work style. If she diligently reads stuff you send her, pitch your idea in email in the middle of the afternoon, so she can think about it overnight.
If he communicates verbally, ask for some time and pitch your idea in person.
WHATEVER YOU DO, don't expect "(facepalm) Hey, you're right. Good idea!" during your pitch. It takes a while.
Now, some managers will come to you after their time constant elapses and say "I have an idea!" and recite your idea. You have to accept this.
If you say, "I'm giving a public talk" (or "We should move from Azure to AWS", or "We need a better defect tracking system" or whatever), it's human nature to resist. It's new. It's change.
Entrepreneurs often have long time constants. It's necessary for them to be stubborn, and stubbornness is generally a good personality trait when doing difficult things.
So, don't expect your manager to agree right away to your new idea. Give her at least her time constant to think it over.
How do you do this? It depends on the manager's work style. If she diligently reads stuff you send her, pitch your idea in email in the middle of the afternoon, so she can think about it overnight.
If he communicates verbally, ask for some time and pitch your idea in person.
WHATEVER YOU DO, don't expect "(facepalm) Hey, you're right. Good idea!" during your pitch. It takes a while.
Now, some managers will come to you after their time constant elapses and say "I have an idea!" and recite your idea. You have to accept this.
Now, some managers will come to you after their time constant elapses and say "I have an idea!" and recite your idea. You have to accept this.
Will you regret not talking at the events? If so it's your career and something you have to live with, not your manager. You won't always work for that company (or even that manager), but you will always have the talks on your resume.
Unless he's got a really good reason, you haven't said. I would tell him it's your career and not his, but thanks for his advice.
Unless he's got a really good reason, you haven't said. I would tell him it's your career and not his, but thanks for his advice.
I can say what not to do: never do something to undermine or expose your boss no matter how incompetent he is.
Personally I let my boss take all credit for my work (not really, just make everything I can in order to get him promoted). When he gets promoted he is likely to carry me up with him (if not I'm working for the wrong boss). It paid out several times.
Personally I let my boss take all credit for my work (not really, just make everything I can in order to get him promoted). When he gets promoted he is likely to carry me up with him (if not I'm working for the wrong boss). It paid out several times.
To add slightly, the "worse" a manager is the more important this is. If someone wants all the credit and has the authority, you can only either help or face some degree of consequence.
The more competent and confident leadership is the more they'll work to make sure you get pushed into the spotlight for your work (sometimes against your will if you're shy or unsure). A good corporate culture will naturally make them look good when you look good.
Disclaimer: I've had the distinct pleasure of only working _with_ but never really _for_ a difficult of manager.
The more competent and confident leadership is the more they'll work to make sure you get pushed into the spotlight for your work (sometimes against your will if you're shy or unsure). A good corporate culture will naturally make them look good when you look good.
Disclaimer: I've had the distinct pleasure of only working _with_ but never really _for_ a difficult of manager.
I generally avoid talking too much with my managers. I usually do without asking what I think is right without getting permission (better ask for forgiveness later which rarely happens). When asked I will tell them what's going on but without asking I am quiet and do my job. When my team has to work with other teams I also talk to them directly without manager if possible. This works well for me.
Other people have the opposite approach always talking to their manager and trying to develop a relationship. From what I see this only works for some. In the end they want somebody who does the necessary work and causes the manager as little work as possible. It's pretty rare that a manager actually mentors people to get better.
As far as asked not to give talks it seems pretty clear that your manager doesn't have your best interest at heart.
Other people have the opposite approach always talking to their manager and trying to develop a relationship. From what I see this only works for some. In the end they want somebody who does the necessary work and causes the manager as little work as possible. It's pretty rare that a manager actually mentors people to get better.
As far as asked not to give talks it seems pretty clear that your manager doesn't have your best interest at heart.
Make sure they work in the same time zone, for one.
Two, your guy seems to be throttling your notoriety. Flip that fucker the bird, and if he give you static, quit on that bastard.
The problem you’ve got right here is as old as the Molly MaGuires.
Are you exposing trade secrets? No? Then someone simply doesn’t want to be outshined.
Two, your guy seems to be throttling your notoriety. Flip that fucker the bird, and if he give you static, quit on that bastard.
The problem you’ve got right here is as old as the Molly MaGuires.
Are you exposing trade secrets? No? Then someone simply doesn’t want to be outshined.
I have been a manager for a few years. Giving a talk at an event can be a huge career boost. Unless she has a good reason, you should ignore her request.
"I don't want you speaking at difficult to get in industry events."
"That's interesting. Why would you say that?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5RknemM8Hw
"That's interesting. Why would you say that?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5RknemM8Hw
Lots of good advice on the thread.
I would add...
1) Proactively give a weekly written status with goals for the week, what you accomplished, what you didn’t, what you need from them, and what you are waiting on for others.
2) If the damage is irreparable, time to transfer or leave.
I would add...
1) Proactively give a weekly written status with goals for the week, what you accomplished, what you didn’t, what you need from them, and what you are waiting on for others.
2) If the damage is irreparable, time to transfer or leave.
I just give my manager my honest best 40 hours for that week.
I don't want to work beyond that (though sometimes it just has to be done), and I sometimes have weeks where I'm just tired/lazy/not well and don't give a good 40. But I always try.
Using that formula I've managed to always have good relations with my managers-- this is my 28th year in the business, over 3 companies and several managers in each.
Oh, about the speaking gigs. (I've had a few of these too, and only once lost the opportunity to go. That one was a foreign event and wasn't really in my strong suit.) I'd use that as a bargaining chip in your periodic reviews. When the manager talks about your performance, mention going to one of these shows as a benchmark. I wouldn't try to use a minor show-- make it J1 (or whatever it's called these days), MSFT Build, RH Summit, etc. Something that means something. If the manager balks, I'd seriously consider bringing it up in a group-level meeting. Upper managers almost always offer a Q&A session, you can have a cleverly worded question prepared in advance. It's hard to claim to be a world-class company when you don't let you people go to world-class gatherings, so you should find some traction there. Good luck.
I don't want to work beyond that (though sometimes it just has to be done), and I sometimes have weeks where I'm just tired/lazy/not well and don't give a good 40. But I always try.
Using that formula I've managed to always have good relations with my managers-- this is my 28th year in the business, over 3 companies and several managers in each.
Oh, about the speaking gigs. (I've had a few of these too, and only once lost the opportunity to go. That one was a foreign event and wasn't really in my strong suit.) I'd use that as a bargaining chip in your periodic reviews. When the manager talks about your performance, mention going to one of these shows as a benchmark. I wouldn't try to use a minor show-- make it J1 (or whatever it's called these days), MSFT Build, RH Summit, etc. Something that means something. If the manager balks, I'd seriously consider bringing it up in a group-level meeting. Upper managers almost always offer a Q&A session, you can have a cleverly worded question prepared in advance. It's hard to claim to be a world-class company when you don't let you people go to world-class gatherings, so you should find some traction there. Good luck.
Try to understand their point of view. Maybe he/she hates your guts, but I doubt it.
I’d ask something like:
“I’m certain you have your reasons about not wanting me to attend the conference, but they aren’t clear to me. I have the best interests of the company in mind, but from my point of view this feels like a unduly limitation of my personal liberty. I do understand there’s not always the time or energy to explain yourself to those you manage, and I don’t want to question your decisions. But I wish you would explain your reasoning about why you feel I should not attend the conference. And maybe see if there is a possibility of a compromise? I hope you try to understand my point of view here, I do not want any sour feelings to develop between us.“
Also, give people time to change their minds. Just gently asking a few times a couple of times in advance, preferably during downtime or when your manager is in a relaxed state if mind. It might help them reconsider the idea, even if it feels like nagging. Just be wary that you don’t come off as “not listening” or questioning their authority. If you manager is really difficult you could ask a superior, but be very careful, you can be certain they won’t like you going behind their back.
I’d ask something like:
“I’m certain you have your reasons about not wanting me to attend the conference, but they aren’t clear to me. I have the best interests of the company in mind, but from my point of view this feels like a unduly limitation of my personal liberty. I do understand there’s not always the time or energy to explain yourself to those you manage, and I don’t want to question your decisions. But I wish you would explain your reasoning about why you feel I should not attend the conference. And maybe see if there is a possibility of a compromise? I hope you try to understand my point of view here, I do not want any sour feelings to develop between us.“
Also, give people time to change their minds. Just gently asking a few times a couple of times in advance, preferably during downtime or when your manager is in a relaxed state if mind. It might help them reconsider the idea, even if it feels like nagging. Just be wary that you don’t come off as “not listening” or questioning their authority. If you manager is really difficult you could ask a superior, but be very careful, you can be certain they won’t like you going behind their back.
Yes OP, and while you're at that and reducing your relationship with your manager to that of a parent to a 2 year old boy, also remember to kneel and kiss your manager's hand if they do you the favor of allowing you to do as you please in your own spare time.
It's nothing to do with having a thick skin. It's about being professional. Nothing that happens at work should be taken personally.
Meetings with your manager need to be two way. As your manager tells you how you are doing, you need to tell them how they are doing. I manage my manager by being completely candid about his performance as a manager.
Meetings with your manager need to be two way. As your manager tells you how you are doing, you need to tell them how they are doing. I manage my manager by being completely candid about his performance as a manager.
Bad/inexperienced managers/team leads can make a great job a miserable experience. I usually leave those positions for better jobs vs trying to train someone who is supposed to be my "superior". The not giving talks at certain industry events seems odd unless there is a company policy around that due to IP issues etc..
Imho odds are your manager is right. Are you working for a 3 letter agency, its contractor or subcontractor; are you revealing trade secrets or company priorities, or implying them by revealing your knowledge on a subject; are you using your role as employee of company X to land paid speaking roles; have you signed employment agreements that state any intellectual property you create on or off the job is property of the company; are you speaking at event which could bring suspicion or disrepute to your employer eg blackhat, scammy, or events sponsored by foreign powers; do you work in finance and are being paid an amount in cash or in perks (transport, meals) which invites scrutiny for ethical violations; do you work in a sensitive or "access" position which has required you to sign a code of conduct? What's the reason for denial? Context is necessary.
> do you work in finance and are being paid an amount in cash or in perks (transport, meals) which invites scrutiny for ethical violations
I too would love to hear the reasons behind the manager's request, but wow, is this also a potential issue? Are you not allowed to be paid however much they are willing to pay you? And why would you disclose your salary or perks at a conference anyhow? Do people do that?
I too would love to hear the reasons behind the manager's request, but wow, is this also a potential issue? Are you not allowed to be paid however much they are willing to pay you? And why would you disclose your salary or perks at a conference anyhow? Do people do that?
You should be aware of your boss's goals, and his/her boss's goals (which are often written down and reviewed annually), and your organization's goals and mission statement. If the conference is aligned with these goals, you have a case.
You should also have a professional development plan in place with your boss, so that he/she knows the ways in which you're putting time into growing yourself professionally, and so that he/she can steer opportunities your way and help you achieve what you've got your eye on. If presenting at industry events is "on your list", it should be On Your List, i.e. written down and reviewed annually.
For managers, professional development of their direct reports is often one of their goals.
I'm from the No Surprises school of thought - you don't want surprises from your manager, and your manager doesn't want surprises from you.
You should also have a professional development plan in place with your boss, so that he/she knows the ways in which you're putting time into growing yourself professionally, and so that he/she can steer opportunities your way and help you achieve what you've got your eye on. If presenting at industry events is "on your list", it should be On Your List, i.e. written down and reviewed annually.
For managers, professional development of their direct reports is often one of their goals.
I'm from the No Surprises school of thought - you don't want surprises from your manager, and your manager doesn't want surprises from you.
One thing I've learned is that managers hate surprises, and hate making decisions in front of an audience. Think about how it feels to have your idea (going to the conference) vetoed. Their idea (approving your attendance) could get vetoed too. The easiest thing to do with any unexpected idea is to quash it.
Perhaps a way to deal with a situation like the conference, is to get them involved early. Like, before you apply for it: "Hey, boss, there's this conference that I think would be beneficial for us. We'll learn a lot and if I give a talk, it will be prestigious for the business. It's a long shot, but can I apply for it?"
Also, in all conversations with your boss, work on your mutual enthusiasm for your career development. At the very least, it's unlikely they will say to your face that they don't support your career.
Perhaps a way to deal with a situation like the conference, is to get them involved early. Like, before you apply for it: "Hey, boss, there's this conference that I think would be beneficial for us. We'll learn a lot and if I give a talk, it will be prestigious for the business. It's a long shot, but can I apply for it?"
Also, in all conversations with your boss, work on your mutual enthusiasm for your career development. At the very least, it's unlikely they will say to your face that they don't support your career.
In addition to some of the solid advice given in this thread, I use the following technique with my manager and it seems to work well in establishing trust and increasing my value to the organization:
Every once in a while (maybe every 2-3 weeks), I'll pop into my manager's office and ask him the biggest challenge he's facing at the moment, i.e. what's keeping him up at night. And then I'll try to help him out with it. Sometimes I can take direct action to solve the issue. Other times I can inform my colleagues of the issue and help to prioritize a fix with the team. And still other times I just listen with an empathetic ear and give some advice or kick around ideas with him.
Every once in a while (maybe every 2-3 weeks), I'll pop into my manager's office and ask him the biggest challenge he's facing at the moment, i.e. what's keeping him up at night. And then I'll try to help him out with it. Sometimes I can take direct action to solve the issue. Other times I can inform my colleagues of the issue and help to prioritize a fix with the team. And still other times I just listen with an empathetic ear and give some advice or kick around ideas with him.
It sounds like you've already decided to give the talk. Have you discovered the rationale? Why would your manager us his leverage to influence your career path?
Managers learn through failure like everybody else.
Managers learn through failure like everybody else.
It is important to remember that your manager's and your own goals may not be alligned. In other words, managers may not have your best interests at heart. Always have to look out for yourself.
After not finding success reporting to managers, I started my own company. In the end I learned that I'm a great fit as CEO and not a great fit as an employee.
Now I have the freedom (and responsibility) to make those decisions. Yes, you could build a relationship with your manger and try to find a way to convince them to let you go to these events. Or, you can be your own boss and just go.
If you keep thinking your manger is "doing it wrong", it might be worth stepping into their role and seeing if you can actually do it better.
Now I have the freedom (and responsibility) to make those decisions. Yes, you could build a relationship with your manger and try to find a way to convince them to let you go to these events. Or, you can be your own boss and just go.
If you keep thinking your manger is "doing it wrong", it might be worth stepping into their role and seeing if you can actually do it better.
Not sure how pathological your situation is - 'thick skin' seems a cover-up for a lack of managerial accountability and you might not see it give your position inside the organization but this may help: https://www.amazon.com/48-Laws-Power-Robert-Greene/dp/014028...
Best of luck.
Best of luck.
I don’t know how to, because the usual tool - words - are off the table. Every time we speak, he monologues at length, going into the kind of detail parents use with small children. He paves over every attempt to interject or ask for clarification I actually need. And then at the very end, he listens to the first few words of my thoughts, then interrupts that he’s late to something and runs off. Every time.
Life's too short to work for someone that you do not respect and does not respect you. You have limited ability to change your manager's behavior, but a lot to change that manager.
Managing people is hard, so it is always important to recognise this and help your manager by being proactive with ideas that help her/him manage the team, understanding what is important to her/him and the organisation, and contribute greatly to showing results as a team. Too often we unnecessarily feel that we are on different sides - and overblow this in our minds.
Giving a talk at a prestigious event is a clear signal to your manager that you are likely going to jump over them due to your vastly increased visibility and popularity, so a crab mode is employed at you. Get thick skin - any job is temporary anyway, but marketing opportunities are few. Don't do anything rough and clearly unfair though.
1 loyalty
Too often I experience employees or co-worker to think they have better ideas or should be opposing to their manager. Managing happens often under uncertainty. Making it for your boss easier to know you are there to take on ups and downs will almost often grant loyalty in return. On this job and future opportunities as well.
After 15 years IT I see that managing bad bosses makes sense. Bad bosses, with their bad ideas, are usually fired or resign at some stage, the good ones stay.
I heard “me me me” from the OP. There is no context or direction that it is a bad manager. What if OP is a bad employee and a drain on company resources? It is a one-sided talk so far with no context on the other party.
The best advice I have seen about this topic is the classic book "The Unwritten Laws of Engineering" from W.J. King. I always recommend the book to newcomers.
Note that the latest re-print of the book is named "The Unwritten Laws of Business". I guess that editors expect to attract more readers with the new title.
Note that the latest re-print of the book is named "The Unwritten Laws of Business". I guess that editors expect to attract more readers with the new title.
Unless you have a really good job I'd probably give the talk(s) anyways and see if you can get away with it.
Context is very important here. Have you always been denied for every talk? How frequently are you planning these talks and does it impact you work? Is there any trade secret/ IP the manager is concerned about? Is the company paying for everything and if so what are you giving back?
It is taught at university. However, the courses you require are typically found in MALS and DLA programs. Studying classics (i.e., dead white guys, like Plutarch), rhetoric, methodology, and conflict resolution will help to grow your perspective in how to best influence others.
Set up a weekly goal setting session between you and your manager.
Keep crisp feedback loop going on towards the goals you mutually set.
Balance out the business needs and engineering implementation, aka manage tech debt.
Own your products and work with your manager to improve those both externally/internally.
Commit, Deliver; Repeat
Keep crisp feedback loop going on towards the goals you mutually set.
Balance out the business needs and engineering implementation, aka manage tech debt.
Own your products and work with your manager to improve those both externally/internally.
Commit, Deliver; Repeat
Your job should not have to include managing your manager. Your manager’s job includes preventing this situation from happening. If you find yourself spending too much time on this (and you can’t fix it by bringing it up), you should find a new manager.
My experience is in the finance industry, so it may be different for you, but this is what I've observed throughout various jobs:
Your manager...
- prioritises themselves over you (obviously!)
- is probably not the best leader, and can't deal with their authority being challenged
- probably doesn't know what's best for you
- will sabotage your prospects from time to time (even if it doesn't provide them with immediate benefit)
- probably sees you as a threat, especially if you're good at what you do
- will try and control everything you do at work (micro-management), and perhaps even outside it
- will forget things you've discussed and agreed in the past
- will try and ensure you never sense that the above are true
You should...
- send regular descriptive, emails that make your manager aware of what you're up to and what you've discussed/mutually agreed. The more stuff in writing, the better. This is to CYA (cover your ass). Also, it's an evidence of "work" (stupid, I know, but it's how it is).
- be aware of toxic patterns in your manager's behaviour. E.g. giving you pointless work, stopping you from taking a holiday at a particular time for no good reason etc. Once that starts, it's usually a downward spiral, and may signal a time to move on.
- look out for jealously. If you start to outperform your manager, they may get jealous, and that's bad for you. I think this may have something to do with you not speaking at the event, but I leave that for you to judge.
- mingle and build relationships with other senior managers at your firm. Eventually you'll want to take the next step, perhaps to escape the clutches of your current manager if the relationship has soured.
- try not to be too smart. Back down, even when your manager is wrong, or risk ruining the relationship. It's sad, but most managers don't take well to being challenged, even if your tone and intentions are good.
Having a thick skin, as you mentioned, is necessary for the above. I remember joining an investment bank as young whipper-snapper quant, trying my best to show how great I was at every task. Trust me, it did not go down well! After a few job changes, I decided to dumb it down and toe the line. Before I knew it, I started to get promoted to some rather senior positions, just by doing the basics and some long-ish hours! The key was ensuring that you're not perceived as a threat, while ensuring everyone around you is fully aware of your contributions.
Your manager...
- prioritises themselves over you (obviously!)
- is probably not the best leader, and can't deal with their authority being challenged
- probably doesn't know what's best for you
- will sabotage your prospects from time to time (even if it doesn't provide them with immediate benefit)
- probably sees you as a threat, especially if you're good at what you do
- will try and control everything you do at work (micro-management), and perhaps even outside it
- will forget things you've discussed and agreed in the past
- will try and ensure you never sense that the above are true
You should...
- send regular descriptive, emails that make your manager aware of what you're up to and what you've discussed/mutually agreed. The more stuff in writing, the better. This is to CYA (cover your ass). Also, it's an evidence of "work" (stupid, I know, but it's how it is).
- be aware of toxic patterns in your manager's behaviour. E.g. giving you pointless work, stopping you from taking a holiday at a particular time for no good reason etc. Once that starts, it's usually a downward spiral, and may signal a time to move on.
- look out for jealously. If you start to outperform your manager, they may get jealous, and that's bad for you. I think this may have something to do with you not speaking at the event, but I leave that for you to judge.
- mingle and build relationships with other senior managers at your firm. Eventually you'll want to take the next step, perhaps to escape the clutches of your current manager if the relationship has soured.
- try not to be too smart. Back down, even when your manager is wrong, or risk ruining the relationship. It's sad, but most managers don't take well to being challenged, even if your tone and intentions are good.
Having a thick skin, as you mentioned, is necessary for the above. I remember joining an investment bank as young whipper-snapper quant, trying my best to show how great I was at every task. Trust me, it did not go down well! After a few job changes, I decided to dumb it down and toe the line. Before I knew it, I started to get promoted to some rather senior positions, just by doing the basics and some long-ish hours! The key was ensuring that you're not perceived as a threat, while ensuring everyone around you is fully aware of your contributions.
Well, you ask your manager for the reasons behind his decision, most of the time they have a compelling reason and you get to learn something (besides of not remaining resent).
First, be valuable to the company - get work done, be reliable, be available. Second, understand the manager's strengths and weaknesses and become valuable to them individually.. if architecture is their weakness, help them understand that; if not tolerating skipped deadlines is their weakness, don't skip them, etc. Third, provide constructive feedback in 1:1s - help them become better. Finally, do not make them look bad in public, especially when their bosses are around.
Follow the org chart up past your manager to get what you want
This works if, and only if, your 2nd line supervisor thinks your boss is incompetent. Otherwise, he'll literally just send you back to the boss with directions to "Handle this." And in the process, you have ticked off your boss, and given a bad impression to the 2nd line boss.
What does the company have to lose by your going, and what do they have to gain? If you are asking to take personal time off in the middle of some critical goal/deadline, I could see how your going would negatively impact the business.
In fact, it has happened to me while working on projects. Some key person is off at a conference, while we're all charging to get the thing done, and it's not a good feeling.
In my experience, tech conferences tend to be more for developers and less for the companies and businesses that hire them. Let's be honest with ourselves here. It's kind of self-indulgent, like a mini-vacation.
It's not like you can't watch the videos online or go read whatever tutorial or documentation. I'm only speaking to my experience here, so maybe your conference has something the typical tech conference doesn't have.
I would only go to a conference if I knew that going would more than pay for the cost. If I were certain it would lead to many more opportunities than what I've got going on at present, I would say it's worth paying for the airfare, hotel, and restaurant food.
It seems like you could stand to gain quite a lot from going to this conference, and your company might just lose you. They are justifiably afraid of that, but so what? This is capitalism, man. It's ruthless. Everyone's in it for themselves.
Your company is subject to market forces. You are subject to market forces. They would need to find another developer to train up if you left, and if they let you go because you went to a conference, they would be taking on the risk of having to replace you.
So there's an inherent risk in going (on both sides). Can you currently afford to take that risk? How much do you have saved? How much debt do you have? Would you be okay with being unemployed for a few months while looking for the next thing?
When someone else's interests are naturally at odds with yours, there is little negotiation to be done. They simply don't want what you want, and that's okay. Can you afford to go get yours?
In fact, it has happened to me while working on projects. Some key person is off at a conference, while we're all charging to get the thing done, and it's not a good feeling.
In my experience, tech conferences tend to be more for developers and less for the companies and businesses that hire them. Let's be honest with ourselves here. It's kind of self-indulgent, like a mini-vacation.
It's not like you can't watch the videos online or go read whatever tutorial or documentation. I'm only speaking to my experience here, so maybe your conference has something the typical tech conference doesn't have.
I would only go to a conference if I knew that going would more than pay for the cost. If I were certain it would lead to many more opportunities than what I've got going on at present, I would say it's worth paying for the airfare, hotel, and restaurant food.
It seems like you could stand to gain quite a lot from going to this conference, and your company might just lose you. They are justifiably afraid of that, but so what? This is capitalism, man. It's ruthless. Everyone's in it for themselves.
Your company is subject to market forces. You are subject to market forces. They would need to find another developer to train up if you left, and if they let you go because you went to a conference, they would be taking on the risk of having to replace you.
So there's an inherent risk in going (on both sides). Can you currently afford to take that risk? How much do you have saved? How much debt do you have? Would you be okay with being unemployed for a few months while looking for the next thing?
When someone else's interests are naturally at odds with yours, there is little negotiation to be done. They simply don't want what you want, and that's okay. Can you afford to go get yours?
> I am asking this because I was recently asked by my manager not to give talks in really difficult to get in industry events, despite of getting an acceptance.
Curious, were you told why? Seems really strange.
Curious, were you told why? Seems really strange.
I am not at all surprised. In many (most?) corporate environments, all your work product belongs to the corporation and management decides whether the benefits to the company outway risks. To get approval for conference talks I always had to first get approval from my direct management and then from the corporate clearance department. I worked in our analytical science division, so I also needed approval from the management of our client divisions to speak about my work on their projects. We even had editors who had to approve all abstracts, articles, and slides.
Tell them what they want to hear.
To a certain degree, thick skin, especially in the sense of not getting overly emotional, focusing on the goal, seeing big picture, having patience, etc, is always a good advice. But it's not necessarily the key part of having a good relationship with your manager.
First, the ground work - you can NOT start with what you want or demand on day one. When joining a new team or new manager:
1. Understand their constraints, goals, priorities. While you may be focusing solely on technical solution, they may have overriding cost, time, and other resource constraints. Understanding them, and helping your manager fit within them and achieve their goals will engender trust and start building a relationship.
2. Understand their background - technical, business, functional, management, etc. This will give you first layer of insight on how to reach them.
3. Understand how they like to work. Little things like: - How do they like information presented - email or in person or text message or phone? Small bites or long presentations? Ask questions as they come or batch them? If you present your information / request in way that works for them, you will have better chance of success
- How do they like / take feedback: openly in group settings, openly in private, or do you have to tread carefully
- Are they hierarchical or co-operative; do they base authority on status or knowledge or persuasion; do they lead by consensus or by direction
4. Per above, build trust, relationship and camaraderie. If you understand and help them achieve their goals, you are an ally they want to help. If you are (perceived or actually) uncooperative, unproductive, distracted, unaware, etc, you may be seen as irritant.
Now that you have a solid understanding and relationship: - As per the old (and cliched) Dale Carnegie's standby, before any request, figure out a "business case" - what's in it for them, or team, or company? If it only benefits you, it's a weak case. Almost always you can find a way to bring benefits to team, even if it's just enhancing your skillset that you can use on project, meeting customers, or something similarly indirect - Think of their constraints or objections ahead of time and address them in your request. If it's absence from the team, who can be your backup or can you do work ahead of time. If it's cost, can you make case for ROI? - Persuade them that they want this to happen. Don't ask or demand, rather present and discuss. If there's any way to tie it into their goals, thoughts, or priorities, do not miss an opportunity to present it: "As you were saying the other day, we need to reach out to the wider market and find new avenues for our products and networking. One of the ways I was brainstorming is industry conferences; upon some research I found this conference where I think we can potentially engage an interested audience", etc etc etc :>
Without more detail on your specific case, or your specific manager, the generic thoughts are all I can offer. Best of luck!
First, the ground work - you can NOT start with what you want or demand on day one. When joining a new team or new manager:
1. Understand their constraints, goals, priorities. While you may be focusing solely on technical solution, they may have overriding cost, time, and other resource constraints. Understanding them, and helping your manager fit within them and achieve their goals will engender trust and start building a relationship.
2. Understand their background - technical, business, functional, management, etc. This will give you first layer of insight on how to reach them.
3. Understand how they like to work. Little things like: - How do they like information presented - email or in person or text message or phone? Small bites or long presentations? Ask questions as they come or batch them? If you present your information / request in way that works for them, you will have better chance of success
- How do they like / take feedback: openly in group settings, openly in private, or do you have to tread carefully
- Are they hierarchical or co-operative; do they base authority on status or knowledge or persuasion; do they lead by consensus or by direction
4. Per above, build trust, relationship and camaraderie. If you understand and help them achieve their goals, you are an ally they want to help. If you are (perceived or actually) uncooperative, unproductive, distracted, unaware, etc, you may be seen as irritant.
Now that you have a solid understanding and relationship: - As per the old (and cliched) Dale Carnegie's standby, before any request, figure out a "business case" - what's in it for them, or team, or company? If it only benefits you, it's a weak case. Almost always you can find a way to bring benefits to team, even if it's just enhancing your skillset that you can use on project, meeting customers, or something similarly indirect - Think of their constraints or objections ahead of time and address them in your request. If it's absence from the team, who can be your backup or can you do work ahead of time. If it's cost, can you make case for ROI? - Persuade them that they want this to happen. Don't ask or demand, rather present and discuss. If there's any way to tie it into their goals, thoughts, or priorities, do not miss an opportunity to present it: "As you were saying the other day, we need to reach out to the wider market and find new avenues for our products and networking. One of the ways I was brainstorming is industry conferences; upon some research I found this conference where I think we can potentially engage an interested audience", etc etc etc :>
Without more detail on your specific case, or your specific manager, the generic thoughts are all I can offer. Best of luck!
>I was recently asked by my manager not to give talks in really difficult to get in industry events
Wait, what? I don’t think your employer has the right to prevent you from giving talks.
Am I misunderstanding something?
Wait, what? I don’t think your employer has the right to prevent you from giving talks.
Am I misunderstanding something?