Ask YC: Are Americans forgetting the rest of the world?
37 comments
The US is itself a huge market with relatively uniformity (you mention the address information as one example, the currency is another). I don't see anything wrong with a US company deciding that US customers are reasonable target. Yes, they are missing out on business, but they are also missing out on hassles with deal with the RotW.
So my take is that for many US companies the answer is "Why bother? We have a big market here".
So my take is that for many US companies the answer is "Why bother? We have a big market here".
<slightly off topic>
The thing that gets me is that there are a lot of US companies that expect people to use credit cards. I'm guessing that this is because (AFAIK) most US citizens have credit cards. However, over here in the UK (rest of Europe too? I don't know) credit cards aren't so prolific. I wish people would start allowing more international forms of payment, such as PayPal. I REALLY want to start using the paid versions of some of 37 Signals stuff as well as some of the Amazon Web Services, but I can't because they don't accept Paypal (or something similar). The thing that gets me is that I can buy something online via Amazon, but can't use their web services. </rant>
The thing that gets me is that there are a lot of US companies that expect people to use credit cards. I'm guessing that this is because (AFAIK) most US citizens have credit cards. However, over here in the UK (rest of Europe too? I don't know) credit cards aren't so prolific. I wish people would start allowing more international forms of payment, such as PayPal. I REALLY want to start using the paid versions of some of 37 Signals stuff as well as some of the Amazon Web Services, but I can't because they don't accept Paypal (or something similar). The thing that gets me is that I can buy something online via Amazon, but can't use their web services. </rant>
There is still quite a bit of friction at the borders. As a company that ships equipment both into and out of America, we still find it difficult/expensive to get goods and money into and out of this country. Actually difficult to the point that a profitable product in US is not profitable outside because the profit margin is more than absorbed by the cost of getting the goods out of the country and getting the payment back in.
Instead we've had to set up a rather convoluted system where our hardware is sourced and assembled outside of the US. It was so much of a pain that I can easily see why some people might just decide its not worth the hassle. The economy may be global now, but if you're not in Asia or eastern Europe, your country didn't get the memo.
Instead we've had to set up a rather convoluted system where our hardware is sourced and assembled outside of the US. It was so much of a pain that I can easily see why some people might just decide its not worth the hassle. The economy may be global now, but if you're not in Asia or eastern Europe, your country didn't get the memo.
Uh...AOL = America OnLine.
Point taken, but AOL isn't a great example - it started when Americans really were (practically speaking) the only netizens (and overseas connections were expensive).
Point taken, but AOL isn't a great example - it started when Americans really were (practically speaking) the only netizens (and overseas connections were expensive).
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It's a problem mainly of ignorance. Both with regards to requiring zip and state and also with the whole liability problem.
The liability issue is only a problem for a few types of businesses, in particularly financial.
You may offend or break laws (such as EU privacy laws), but it really doesn't matter if you're a US company without offices in an EU jurisdiction as they don't have jurisdiction over you, no matter what they say.
It is very easy to make a signup form internationally compliant. You just have to do zip/postalcode, state/province/region. Also don't make any of the address fields required unless you need them for shipping purposes.
The liability issue is only a problem for a few types of businesses, in particularly financial.
You may offend or break laws (such as EU privacy laws), but it really doesn't matter if you're a US company without offices in an EU jurisdiction as they don't have jurisdiction over you, no matter what they say.
It is very easy to make a signup form internationally compliant. You just have to do zip/postalcode, state/province/region. Also don't make any of the address fields required unless you need them for shipping purposes.
This seems pretty obvious to me (as a european resident). The amount of stuff you have to figure out to reach the US market is a lot less than the amount of stuff you have to figure out to reach the european market. That's a lot of the impetus for tighter european economic integration. If the cost of reaching the US market is a fraction of the cost of reaching the combined european market, it doesn't matter if there are a few more people in the EU. You also can't really measure online market size by GDP or pure head count. Some corners of the EU (Bulgaria, for instance) are less developed than Mexico.
Oversight and pragmatism. You have to start somewhere - and it's usually quite sensible to start with the biggest market, and then expand to the smaller ones.
Absolutely.
But a company the size of AOL surely can't make the excuse that they have to start somewhere. According to internetworldstats North America is only 18% of the global market. Even Europe is bigger with 26%.
Sourse: (http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm)
But a company the size of AOL surely can't make the excuse that they have to start somewhere. According to internetworldstats North America is only 18% of the global market. Even Europe is bigger with 26%.
Sourse: (http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm)
There are also liability issues. This service is offered to US citizens only, possibly because their billing practices don't conform to laws of other nations. Localization of legal issues is costly and time consuming. If you examine the member agreement linked on that page, you see the following:
3. QUALIFICATIONS FOR MEMBERSHIP
To use the AOL Services, you must be a U.S. resident and legally able to enter into contracts. AOL reserves the right to limit you to one free trial or promotion of a paid subscription plan that cannot be combined with other offers.
3. QUALIFICATIONS FOR MEMBERSHIP
To use the AOL Services, you must be a U.S. resident and legally able to enter into contracts. AOL reserves the right to limit you to one free trial or promotion of a paid subscription plan that cannot be combined with other offers.
Well if startups from small European countries can deal with that, the I'm sure large American companies can as well. If they choose to do so of course.
They can, for sure, and many of them do (just not all of them). It's a decision based on the cost of legal vs. the income benefit of providing services to the international market.
AOL has apparently decided the US is its target market. You can get better free web mail from other sites, anyway. :)
AOL has apparently decided the US is its target market. You can get better free web mail from other sites, anyway. :)
he he, yes absolutely...
My point is not to downgrade American companies, it's more that I'm perplexed why some of them are content with such a small share of the global market. If an European startup can do it, then it seems like it is not an issue of it being too hard or too expensive.
My point is not to downgrade American companies, it's more that I'm perplexed why some of them are content with such a small share of the global market. If an European startup can do it, then it seems like it is not an issue of it being too hard or too expensive.
Everyone wants to sue the billion dollar company, no one will bother suing the broke, gone-tomorrow startup.
Marketing in the US:
"Ebooks for sale." If you live in the same state as our office, pay sales tax, otherwise tax free.
Marketing in the EU:
"Ebooks for sale."
Possibly illegal in France (do laws against free shipping apply to ebooks?).
Some ebooks are not legal in some states, e.g. nazi-related books in Germany.
Maybe I forgot a few other problems. Time to hire 27 lawyers to find out.
"Ebooks for sale." If you live in the same state as our office, pay sales tax, otherwise tax free.
Marketing in the EU:
"Ebooks for sale."
Possibly illegal in France (do laws against free shipping apply to ebooks?).
Some ebooks are not legal in some states, e.g. nazi-related books in Germany.
Maybe I forgot a few other problems. Time to hire 27 lawyers to find out.
So you're saying that America is a bigger market than the world?
swombat probably meant that America is the biggest single market in the world (measured in purchasing power, not number of people). Even if that isn't strictly true (I'm not sure if, say, China is actually bigger), America is surely the largest accessible market for most American startups.
Look at it as an opportunity to get into other markets first, as an entrepreneur:-) There are lots of "copycat" sites making good money in their home countries.
True. Here's an example:
In Denmark bask in the 90's a couple of guys decided to do a site like yahoo. It was called jubii. Today they are much bigger than Yahoo in Denmark, and are making good money, basically riping off Yahoo's concept.
In Denmark bask in the 90's a couple of guys decided to do a site like yahoo. It was called jubii. Today they are much bigger than Yahoo in Denmark, and are making good money, basically riping off Yahoo's concept.
I think there is something more insidious at work here. Well, perhaps not Insidious, but it's not about companies trying to exclude people, at least not in large. In honesty I think there are two culprits.
1) Stupid Developers. There are lots of developers out there who are lazy and stupid in the bad way. They just go with what they know and don't even begin to consider a larger audience. Think of all the uber-limited lists of job field boxes, of the limited gender-identity options on sites, of the idiocy of requiring an address for registration to a newspapers comments in the first place!
2) Ignorant or unthinking management. People who make the developers require all that stupid information in the first place. They do it because they don't really understand that they're actively deterring business. It's a problem with business models all over. Business leaders often don't realize that they're making it hard for their customers, and that makes their customers unlikely to be customers for long. If someone would sit them down and explain to them the horrors of interface friction, and truly make them understand, I think things could get better quickly.
1) Stupid Developers. There are lots of developers out there who are lazy and stupid in the bad way. They just go with what they know and don't even begin to consider a larger audience. Think of all the uber-limited lists of job field boxes, of the limited gender-identity options on sites, of the idiocy of requiring an address for registration to a newspapers comments in the first place!
2) Ignorant or unthinking management. People who make the developers require all that stupid information in the first place. They do it because they don't really understand that they're actively deterring business. It's a problem with business models all over. Business leaders often don't realize that they're making it hard for their customers, and that makes their customers unlikely to be customers for long. If someone would sit them down and explain to them the horrors of interface friction, and truly make them understand, I think things could get better quickly.
There's definitely a level of premature optimisation, although it is becoming less common. I've lost count of the times that I've encountered forms that only accept five digit postal codes or 10 digit telephone numbers.
Take your business elsewhere and the problem will fix itself.
Take your business elsewhere and the problem will fix itself.
You are doing the same thing here in this post.
America and US are two different things.
In English, "America" is the correct short for for the United States of America, and "Americans" for the residents. That's not true in other languages languages (Spanish, for example). I assume your moniker is less than accurate as in German "Amerika" and "Amerikaner(in)" are standard terms as well.
Yes, in English: America = US. In Spanish: America = The Americas.
There's a similar example in Europe, but much more benign and regarding the water between England and France. In English it is known as the English Channel. In French, it is known as The Channel.
I didn't knew that, thanks a lot for the info.
Edit: just another question. What about American like saying European?
Edit: just another question. What about American like saying European?
Well, if you were from the country most commonly known as "Mexico" you would really be from "The United States of Mexico". Therefore it makes more sense to call you a Mexican than an American.
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Maybe in the case of AOL they offer those free email accounts to Americans only so they can guarantee a more homogeneous audience to their advertisers.
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Oversight
explain...
Because Europe alone is a much bigger market than the US, and it's not that hard to simply localize an app. I think this is a huge market -- localizing the most successful apps out there. In fact, you can get the users to do it for you. Just open the admin to allow for translated versions of pages.
Big oversight. Big opportunity.
Big oversight. Big opportunity.
To only localize is to fail on so many levels.
When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Therefore, when all you've got is a dev and management team that doesn't have an office outside the US, everything looks like a US-targeted website.
Besides, haven't you heard of all the credit card scammers outside the US? Boo, scary.
Therefore, when all you've got is a dev and management team that doesn't have an office outside the US, everything looks like a US-targeted website.
Besides, haven't you heard of all the credit card scammers outside the US? Boo, scary.
Why is this? It seems to me that American companies are missing a lot of business this way. Is there a reason for it, or are American companies just ignoring the rest of the world?