Most book clubs are doing it wrong (2017)(jsomers.net)
jsomers.net
Most book clubs are doing it wrong (2017)
http://jsomers.net/blog/book-clubs
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I'm now wondering how common the two (or more?) types of book clubs in the wild are.
I've always treated book clubs more like a shared class and get extremely frustrated when someone shows up without reading the book/chapters ("they're just wasting everyone's time") or when conversation temporarily drifts to non-book-related topics. I go to book clubs for the insights and commentary I get on books from people with different life experiences, reading history, etc. There's plenty of other places you can go if you just want to be social.
I've definitely seen more "social" book clubs, too. I just assumed they were "bad" or not serious, but I guess they're just targeted at people wanting something different out of the book club experience.
I've always treated book clubs more like a shared class and get extremely frustrated when someone shows up without reading the book/chapters ("they're just wasting everyone's time") or when conversation temporarily drifts to non-book-related topics. I go to book clubs for the insights and commentary I get on books from people with different life experiences, reading history, etc. There's plenty of other places you can go if you just want to be social.
I've definitely seen more "social" book clubs, too. I just assumed they were "bad" or not serious, but I guess they're just targeted at people wanting something different out of the book club experience.
> There's plenty of other places you can go if you just want to be social.
There is not? People don't socialize without excuse and did not for years. People who want to socialize have to pick a hobby or interest and try there. It may be sport, bookclub, game, something technical, whatever, but it must be something.
There is not? People don't socialize without excuse and did not for years. People who want to socialize have to pick a hobby or interest and try there. It may be sport, bookclub, game, something technical, whatever, but it must be something.
Bars and churches immediately come to mind, but depending on what city you live in there should be plenty of other opportunities: generic meetups, smallgroups, dog parks, volunteering, taking a class, etc.
Using hobbies is a great way to make friends if you enjoy that hobby. I just think it's a little disingenuous to go to a book club for something other than the book; it feels like going to the gym to just try to chat people up, or really any hobby-related gathering where you don't really care about the hobby. If you're not going to read the book for a book club, it just seems like you might have better luck finding shared hobbies with people at a different kind of club.
Then again, that's just my opinion of what my ideal book club looks like, but that's in no way the "right" way. Social book clubs are probably a great way to get more people to read things they otherwise wouldn't; I just don't get as much out of those kinds of book clubs.
Using hobbies is a great way to make friends if you enjoy that hobby. I just think it's a little disingenuous to go to a book club for something other than the book; it feels like going to the gym to just try to chat people up, or really any hobby-related gathering where you don't really care about the hobby. If you're not going to read the book for a book club, it just seems like you might have better luck finding shared hobbies with people at a different kind of club.
Then again, that's just my opinion of what my ideal book club looks like, but that's in no way the "right" way. Social book clubs are probably a great way to get more people to read things they otherwise wouldn't; I just don't get as much out of those kinds of book clubs.
> Bars and churches
Uh, what? I (and I imagine a good 50%+ of the hacker news readership, perhaps 75%+ if you exclude the USA) am never going to go to either of those without already knowing people.
> generic meetups, smallgroups, dog parks,
Places where you have nothing in common, so nothing to easily bond over (such as a book you've all read)
> volunteering, taking a class
Things where you should be focusing on something else, not socialising (such as in your ideal bookclub).
> If you're not going to read the book for a book club, it just seems like you might have better luck finding shared hobbies with people at a different kind of club.
What makes a book club different to any other hobby club? Or are you saying that you should only go to any hobby meetup if you're a "hardcore" hobbyist?
Because that leaves basically no way to meet people with common interests.
Uh, what? I (and I imagine a good 50%+ of the hacker news readership, perhaps 75%+ if you exclude the USA) am never going to go to either of those without already knowing people.
> generic meetups, smallgroups, dog parks,
Places where you have nothing in common, so nothing to easily bond over (such as a book you've all read)
> volunteering, taking a class
Things where you should be focusing on something else, not socialising (such as in your ideal bookclub).
> If you're not going to read the book for a book club, it just seems like you might have better luck finding shared hobbies with people at a different kind of club.
What makes a book club different to any other hobby club? Or are you saying that you should only go to any hobby meetup if you're a "hardcore" hobbyist?
Because that leaves basically no way to meet people with common interests.
I love the idea that i, a turbo-sinning atheist, might go to church just to hang out.
The practical problem with this is that services are at, what 9 in the morning on a sunday? The only communion i have any interest in taking at that time is with the cold side of the pillow.
But say the holy spirit [1] moves me to overcome that. Then what? "Yeah miss me with the biscuits padre, i'm just here for the bants!", not sure how well this is going to go down.
[1] whisky
The practical problem with this is that services are at, what 9 in the morning on a sunday? The only communion i have any interest in taking at that time is with the cold side of the pillow.
But say the holy spirit [1] moves me to overcome that. Then what? "Yeah miss me with the biscuits padre, i'm just here for the bants!", not sure how well this is going to go down.
[1] whisky
My church had 10 Masses each weekend, all times of the day, until 8pm at night, back before Covid. I previously went to a church that had a 9pm Sunday Mass.
But yes, going just to meet people is the wrong attitude, but better than not going.
But yes, going just to meet people is the wrong attitude, but better than not going.
In my (rather limited) experience most churches would be happy to have you even if you are only going specifically for the social bit.
They, of course, hope to "convert" you. Many seem to take pride in never "giving up" on someone no matter how long it takes.
They, of course, hope to "convert" you. Many seem to take pride in never "giving up" on someone no matter how long it takes.
I believe Wednesday night services are sometimes available depending on the denomination. And like 11am "second" services. YRMV
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A lot will depend on the area and church, but many organize social/community events that are non-religious in nature, including book clubs. There's a good chance they're looking for volunteers for a wide variety of things too, many of those will be quite social. Personally I prefer the drinking beer and watching football style of community my sports club offers and it sounds like you might as well, but there's more to Churches than the weekly sermon.
Actually reading a book that's discussed in the book club isn't being "hardcore hobbyist", it's table stakes. Or at least it should be, and I see GP's point.
(BTW. it's an old issue; there was even an old episode of Friends making fun of the conflict between joining a book club to learn vs. joining just to socialize.)
My experience from running a Hackerspace is that you need both. Time to talk about everything and nothing, and then time of focus for the people to actually practice their shared hobby. Otherwise everyone may just as well go to a bar for a beer.
(BTW. it's an old issue; there was even an old episode of Friends making fun of the conflict between joining a book club to learn vs. joining just to socialize.)
My experience from running a Hackerspace is that you need both. Time to talk about everything and nothing, and then time of focus for the people to actually practice their shared hobby. Otherwise everyone may just as well go to a bar for a beer.
> Otherwise everyone may just as well go to a bar for a beer.
Honestly, there's probably a sizeable 'market' for 'fairly broad interest group of strangers goes to a pub'.
Honestly, there's probably a sizeable 'market' for 'fairly broad interest group of strangers goes to a pub'.
It sounds like there are a fair number of people who believe it is essentially impossible to socialize with people except at book clubs.
I am legitimately unsure reading the other comments in this thread whether you (or they?) are being serious.
In my mind a book club was a group of middle aged women drinking wine and talking about Fifty Shades of Gray. And even that I thought was just a cliche and not an actual thing.
Are book clubs actually a thing that people regularly take part in?
In my mind a book club was a group of middle aged women drinking wine and talking about Fifty Shades of Gray. And even that I thought was just a cliche and not an actual thing.
Are book clubs actually a thing that people regularly take part in?
My comment was facetious, and I'll be honest, this whole part of the thread confused me. I suspect that people's desire to argue on the internet led them to defend a position they don't really hold that strongly.
I've been part of several book clubs. It's definitely a thing people still do. But, it's not the social event of the year or anything like that.
I've been part of several book clubs. It's definitely a thing people still do. But, it's not the social event of the year or anything like that.
Where exactly do people go to bars without meeting friends group they don't already know?
> Using hobbies is a great way to make friends if you enjoy that hobby
That is literally the exactly same thing as books club. Books club is not special, it is yet another hobby used for socialization.
You don't go to gym to meet people, because gym is individual activity. But people do go to sports clubs to sport a bit and chat a lot.
> Using hobbies is a great way to make friends if you enjoy that hobby
That is literally the exactly same thing as books club. Books club is not special, it is yet another hobby used for socialization.
You don't go to gym to meet people, because gym is individual activity. But people do go to sports clubs to sport a bit and chat a lot.
> Where exactly do people go to bars without meeting friends group they don't already know?
Everywhere is my guess.
Some examples:
1. People go to their “local”. You probably already know people there, but you don’t when you first go if you are new to the area.
2. When you are out of town. Bars near convention centers can great places to meet interesting people. My local happens to be one.
3. When the bar has a theme you and your tribe like. It’s an easy way to meet new people you like. In larger cities, the bar scene is constantly evolving.
4. For live music. Having lived in Austin, there are great shows every night of the week. Yes, you usually invite friends, but there are some shows that I would not miss even if my friends didn’t want to go.
5. After a long day, I will sometimes choose to go to a bar alone and that is not likely to have anyone I know as customers. Sometimes I want to be around people and have a drink, but I don’t want to interact with anyone.
6. Same as 5, but I just want to read a long-form essay or a book.
I’m sure there are more.
Everywhere is my guess.
Some examples:
1. People go to their “local”. You probably already know people there, but you don’t when you first go if you are new to the area.
2. When you are out of town. Bars near convention centers can great places to meet interesting people. My local happens to be one.
3. When the bar has a theme you and your tribe like. It’s an easy way to meet new people you like. In larger cities, the bar scene is constantly evolving.
4. For live music. Having lived in Austin, there are great shows every night of the week. Yes, you usually invite friends, but there are some shows that I would not miss even if my friends didn’t want to go.
5. After a long day, I will sometimes choose to go to a bar alone and that is not likely to have anyone I know as customers. Sometimes I want to be around people and have a drink, but I don’t want to interact with anyone.
6. Same as 5, but I just want to read a long-form essay or a book.
I’m sure there are more.
Having gone to a lot of bars on my own, my experience is that people talking to lone strangers in bars is something that only happens in movies.
Alternate theories are...
1. I'm doing it wrong.
2. I'm going to big city bars where people don't talk to strangers.
I've never been to a book club, but at least it's an event specifically for people to talk to each other.
Alternate theories are...
1. I'm doing it wrong.
2. I'm going to big city bars where people don't talk to strangers.
I've never been to a book club, but at least it's an event specifically for people to talk to each other.
You're doing it wrong or going to the wrong bars. I'm as awkward a wallflower as they come, and I've still been drawn into my fair share of bar conversations and hijinks when drinking solo. And any good dive bar will have at least one old man drinking alone and willing to talk to anyone.
I think you are doing it wrong, or you are going to the wrong bars. I sometimes get chatted up even when I am staring at my screen trying to be ignored.
Try sitting at the bar itself. Assuming you are at a social bar rather than a speed bar (i.e., one where they are slinging drinks at a mile a minute), a good bartender will talk to you a bit, and that’s often a way to get the ball rolling.
I will also add that some bars are more social than others, even though they may seem very similar on the surface. I don’t really know why, but it could be the clientele, it could be the bartenders, or it could just be that specified time/day.
Try sitting at the bar itself. Assuming you are at a social bar rather than a speed bar (i.e., one where they are slinging drinks at a mile a minute), a good bartender will talk to you a bit, and that’s often a way to get the ball rolling.
I will also add that some bars are more social than others, even though they may seem very similar on the surface. I don’t really know why, but it could be the clientele, it could be the bartenders, or it could just be that specified time/day.
>Where exactly do people go to bars without meeting friends group they don't already know?
For example, I've met plenty of neighborhood friends by going to live music nights at nearby bars and restaurants. The music was an "excuse" to go to a place I didn't know anyone.
In my city, there's also been bar nights specifically about meeting people, think speed dating but without the emphasis on dating.
For example, I've met plenty of neighborhood friends by going to live music nights at nearby bars and restaurants. The music was an "excuse" to go to a place I didn't know anyone.
In my city, there's also been bar nights specifically about meeting people, think speed dating but without the emphasis on dating.
I wonder if part of Crossfit's popularity is that it's somewhat less of an individual activity.
Precisely. The community aspect is more important to many people than the actual workouts themselves.
I think this can be said for many group-class-like workouts though.
I think this can be said for many group-class-like workouts though.
Also: why people to to college instead of just the library.
What about going to a party? That is a purely social event without any hobby attached to it. Hell, you can find random parties to attend on Meetup or similar if you really wanted, which I've gone to.
Somehow I think that party with strangers over meetup is not how majority of adults want to do things. The structure of club provides:
0.) Daytime activity so you get sleep and don't have to drink.
1.) Regular membership - meeting same people over and over again so that friendship can happen after months.
2.) Regular time and place so it is easy to add to schedule, agree with partner on who has kids and so on.
3.) Good fallback for when you dont fit in initially. Common topic.
4.) Safety. It is safer then party with strangers.
5.) Excuse. People need excuse to socialize. Socializing is seen as waste of time or as being bad parent. The club gives excuse for why you are not lazy for doing it.
0.) Daytime activity so you get sleep and don't have to drink.
1.) Regular membership - meeting same people over and over again so that friendship can happen after months.
2.) Regular time and place so it is easy to add to schedule, agree with partner on who has kids and so on.
3.) Good fallback for when you dont fit in initially. Common topic.
4.) Safety. It is safer then party with strangers.
5.) Excuse. People need excuse to socialize. Socializing is seen as waste of time or as being bad parent. The club gives excuse for why you are not lazy for doing it.
A party is the literal opposite of a bookclub. I just want to go to a cafe after work and talk to other nerds about a book we all read for an hour. If the discussion veers off topic then so be it. I don’t get this obsession to police book clubs for efficiency.
If you are extrovert and you are OK with dozens of strangers around you it will work.
If you have hard time getting along with random people and you need time to open up and get confident with others that is really bad idea. I think book club where mostly the same people who are also less outgoing is better option.
If you have hard time getting along with random people and you need time to open up and get confident with others that is really bad idea. I think book club where mostly the same people who are also less outgoing is better option.
That's understandable. I wish there were a way of separating these two types of book clubs then, a casual versus hardcore variety. I think by doing so, fewer people would be disappointed when it turns out to be the opposite variety of what they expected. Thanks for your viewpoint, it helped me understand the idea better.
I don't think it's difficult? It's just in the way it's described.
> Monthly social book club, not too serious, new faces always welcome.
> Monthly book club exploring everything from X to Y with a focus on Z. Newcomers wanting a place to discuss how P Qs R with like-minded friends always welcome.
> Monthly social book club, not too serious, new faces always welcome.
> Monthly book club exploring everything from X to Y with a focus on Z. Newcomers wanting a place to discuss how P Qs R with like-minded friends always welcome.
Book clubs are generally going to be fairly causal affairs since they're clubs. If you're looking for something serious find a study group or a book club that calls itself a study group. Book clubs are like many other clubs, where social bonding with the group is expected, and the book's an excuse to spend time socializing.
Seems you want a _book study_ not a _book club_. A club doesn't suggest to me a mode of intensity.
I expect you would feel very alone in the hard core book club. The socializing aspect with book clubs and any other hobby clubs are very high. Some people just looks around to find anything at all that helps them find someone to talk to, be it hobby train modelling, sewing or whatever. Book clubs are nothing special in that aspect. And most clubs are happy to get anyone, not just hardcore enthusiasts. Much like the church, they see it as an opportunity to sell their services.
As an introvert, I like going to parties. I get to meet new people and there's usually at least a couple of them who are interesting or hilarious or both. If you're socially anxious, then yeah, it might not be a great experience.
Many book clubs are a type of party... a quiet, low key, themed party around a book.
What is wrong with people wanting to go to that type of party?
What is wrong with people wanting to go to that type of party?
> get extremely frustrated ... when conversation temporarily drifts to non-book-related topics
I think every hobby related group I have participated has had that to a certain extent. During sports activities people talk about other stuff. At the gym, people joke around. In debates club when I was in school we talked about other stuff. Hell, even at a hackathon, maybe 5-10% of the conversation is not about the app or the hackathon. Even the journal club in grad school always started and ended with non-science talk. I have never been frustrated.
People are social, and there is value to creating multifaceted connections with other people.
I think every hobby related group I have participated has had that to a certain extent. During sports activities people talk about other stuff. At the gym, people joke around. In debates club when I was in school we talked about other stuff. Hell, even at a hackathon, maybe 5-10% of the conversation is not about the app or the hackathon. Even the journal club in grad school always started and ended with non-science talk. I have never been frustrated.
People are social, and there is value to creating multifaceted connections with other people.
My objection is when the hosts--who in our club get to pick the book--have not read the book without reading it. This happens too often and can leave the rest of us trudging though something pretty tedious. I wouldn't say the club is bad, I guess I'd say it's not serious. My wife is in another club, all women, and people there show up without having read the book too.
That's what happens with social things. There are competitive softball leagues and there are "beer leagues". Not everyone has the same amount of time and commitment to spare.
It can be helpful if expectations are out there (and people are a little flexible).
It can be helpful if expectations are out there (and people are a little flexible).
Since I've run one of these "social" book clubs for a few years (we actually say "you're welcome to come if you haven't read the book" in our Meetup post), perhaps I can give some insight into what they're like. It's interesting to reflect on how things could be done better, and over the years I've spent a good amount of time doing that and making tweaks.
First of all, the group I'm in tends to read mostly non-fiction books about history, philosophy, science, social issues, and economics. I've never thought about it before, but this is perhaps one big reason why people can drop in and have a good discussion even if they didn't read the book. People have opinions about these subjects and personal experiences that are often interesting even if they didn't read "Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City" or "Why Buddhism is True".
That said, it can also get frustrating and annoying at times, particularly when people pile on with counter-arguments that the author has already carefully addressed. Then I sometimes find myself having to articulate a low-fidelity version of the author's argument and defend it, when the book obviously does a better version of that. I tend to see these experiences as just part of the price for this kind of book group.
We make other trade-offs as well. The group is advertised on Meetup and it's a part of a secular humanist organization I'm in, which means people come for all kinds of reasons. Maybe they saw the book and were intrigued by it, others are curious about or identify with humanism in general, occasionally people seem to be new to the US and want to practice their English and reading. These different groups are inconsistent in their attendance as you can imagine. There's a core group that came for whatever reason and got "drawn in" with the community and the types of discussions and come back most months. Then there are people who only come if they liked that particular book. Then there are people we'll never see again.
In other words, we have a higher churn rate than the "group of friends" or "high commitment" book clubs probably do, so we need to bring in more people. But this also has its advantages, because I meet all kinds of people in jobs, age groups, and parts of the bay area that I would never normally meet, and hear interesting stories from different walks of life.
Overall I think our club serves a good purpose - it gets people out of the house, meeting others, and learning something new from a book each month, even if we're not "sucking the marrow out" of the book and only getting a more superficial benefit.
First of all, the group I'm in tends to read mostly non-fiction books about history, philosophy, science, social issues, and economics. I've never thought about it before, but this is perhaps one big reason why people can drop in and have a good discussion even if they didn't read the book. People have opinions about these subjects and personal experiences that are often interesting even if they didn't read "Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City" or "Why Buddhism is True".
That said, it can also get frustrating and annoying at times, particularly when people pile on with counter-arguments that the author has already carefully addressed. Then I sometimes find myself having to articulate a low-fidelity version of the author's argument and defend it, when the book obviously does a better version of that. I tend to see these experiences as just part of the price for this kind of book group.
We make other trade-offs as well. The group is advertised on Meetup and it's a part of a secular humanist organization I'm in, which means people come for all kinds of reasons. Maybe they saw the book and were intrigued by it, others are curious about or identify with humanism in general, occasionally people seem to be new to the US and want to practice their English and reading. These different groups are inconsistent in their attendance as you can imagine. There's a core group that came for whatever reason and got "drawn in" with the community and the types of discussions and come back most months. Then there are people who only come if they liked that particular book. Then there are people we'll never see again.
In other words, we have a higher churn rate than the "group of friends" or "high commitment" book clubs probably do, so we need to bring in more people. But this also has its advantages, because I meet all kinds of people in jobs, age groups, and parts of the bay area that I would never normally meet, and hear interesting stories from different walks of life.
Overall I think our club serves a good purpose - it gets people out of the house, meeting others, and learning something new from a book each month, even if we're not "sucking the marrow out" of the book and only getting a more superficial benefit.
> First of all, the group I'm in tends to read mostly non-fiction books about history, philosophy, science, social issues, and economics.
Okay, I need to find me a book club like this. That sounds legit amazing. I sort of assumed book clubs were always about novels. On the other hand, I'm not sure how easy it is to find book clubs in Germany ...
Okay, I need to find me a book club like this. That sounds legit amazing. I sort of assumed book clubs were always about novels. On the other hand, I'm not sure how easy it is to find book clubs in Germany ...
Yes, I agree with you. If I'm at a book club, I'd go to discuss books, and socializing comes second, as in if I like someone's opinion I'll hang out with them afterwards. If I want a social gathering, I'll just call a social gathering together with my friends with no pretense of another activity.
I think that is fine to want that in your book clubs... but can you also appreciate that some people want to go to book clubs to have a themed, quiet, get together with friends?
Sure, and I now understand the dichotomy. Some people are expecting book clubs to be casual and others hardcore. Our definitions are not the same so our conclusions as to what book clubs should be are also not the same. I like both approaches but I like them to be delineated. If I'm with my friends I can appreciate it being a social gathering with a theme, but if I attend a "hardcore" book club, well, I expect it to be hardcore, talking about the book itself for most of the time.
It's about socialising with like-minded people though isn't it? I used to enjoy the mix of semi-intellectual discussion about the book and socialising at the book club I used to go to.
If you want a shared class, a literary podcast might be more up your alley.
Is that shared?
I mean, I can share one with you. :shrug:
But seriously, some of them have nice online community and discussion. I’m not familiar with the term “shared class” and an internet search didn’t reveal anything specific.
But seriously, some of them have nice online community and discussion. I’m not familiar with the term “shared class” and an internet search didn’t reveal anything specific.
Did you finish the post?
> Book club, for us, isn’t about reading the same book; it’s about reading a book together.
> The idea is to make book club less an obligation than a sort of pleasant presence in our lives, this thing that’s always there.
> That’s another reason to break a book into pieces: better to have too little to fit into a session than too much; god forbid you read something complex and demanding — do you really want to spend three hours in the unpacking, or to have the session break down before the unpacking’s done?
I agree with the author's conclusions - and have a book club that operates the same way. And I agree with him because it's a better social experience. (A chance to catch up with others with happen to share book reading as a hobby without needing to do homework.)
> Book club, for us, isn’t about reading the same book; it’s about reading a book together.
> The idea is to make book club less an obligation than a sort of pleasant presence in our lives, this thing that’s always there.
> That’s another reason to break a book into pieces: better to have too little to fit into a session than too much; god forbid you read something complex and demanding — do you really want to spend three hours in the unpacking, or to have the session break down before the unpacking’s done?
I agree with the author's conclusions - and have a book club that operates the same way. And I agree with him because it's a better social experience. (A chance to catch up with others with happen to share book reading as a hobby without needing to do homework.)
I must admit I skimmed the post the first time :). I too have run a book group for the last few years, and we've toyed with this idea several times. The advantages are clear in terms of not having to hit a tough deadline, and being able to tackle longer books. I think it can work with anthologies of short stories and essays, but for longer narrative works I wonder about the following (perhaps you can provide some insight):
- Will new people be willing to join in the middle of a book?
- If people don't like the book, do they just have to stick around for the next N meetings? If not, does it lose its place in their routine causing them to forget about it?
I think these concerns may be specific to more "open-access" book groups that anyone can join, rather than long-running groups of existing friends.
- Will new people be willing to join in the middle of a book?
- If people don't like the book, do they just have to stick around for the next N meetings? If not, does it lose its place in their routine causing them to forget about it?
I think these concerns may be specific to more "open-access" book groups that anyone can join, rather than long-running groups of existing friends.
One way my group has done this is to tackle an author or a series together - that way we have some common ground in our reading.
However, if you’re doing it long-term, I much prefer just talking about what you’re reading right now. Over time, you will start to read each other’s recommendations and the discussion will catch up.
I’m sure there are a lot of ways to do this. (OH and it’s awesome that you fessed up about skimming the article - I am there with you the rest of the time. :D)
However, if you’re doing it long-term, I much prefer just talking about what you’re reading right now. Over time, you will start to read each other’s recommendations and the discussion will catch up.
I’m sure there are a lot of ways to do this. (OH and it’s awesome that you fessed up about skimming the article - I am there with you the rest of the time. :D)
I have the strong suspicion this person doesn’t participate in book clubs. Or much in the way of social events.
Mistaking “book club” for “book class” isn’t a small category error.
Mistaking “book club” for “book class” isn’t a small category error.
It makes me sad to read that statement - strangers are insulting James Somers (the original author) simply because I posted one of his articles in this forum.
He's written articles like https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/10/the-friendship... which was one of the best pieces of writing on technology and humans that I've read recently. This is not the work of a recluse (the undesirable negative connotations aside).
He's written articles like https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/10/the-friendship... which was one of the best pieces of writing on technology and humans that I've read recently. This is not the work of a recluse (the undesirable negative connotations aside).
> strangers are insulting James Somers
I mean he's the one telling people that they're doing their hobby 'wrong'... I’m sure he can accept criticism if he’s going to issue it uninvited himself.
I mean he's the one telling people that they're doing their hobby 'wrong'... I’m sure he can accept criticism if he’s going to issue it uninvited himself.
For what it’s worth, I didn’t mean it as an insult.
I used to work on a software development team with James Somers and I can attest that he is both a great writer and able to handle criticism, valid or otherwise. I think he would appreciate the debates he is generating.
Comments on Mr. Somers aside, he clearly and explicitly already had a book club experience that frustrated him.
Makes me think of the episode from Malcolm in the Middle where "book club" was an excuse for housewives to get drunk together.
Sometimes you need to pretend that you're being responsible!
Sometimes you need to pretend that you're being responsible!
LOL. Where I'm from they just call it club. It's basically women (not housewives, that is a forgotten concept around here) who have come together for one reason or the other (neighbors, got children at the same time and where in a maternity group together, childhood friends) who form a "club". Once a week or once a month they congregate in one of the members house and get drunk. It's probably great for them, but from my understanding it can be difficult to become a member of a club if you didn't get in one at the right time.
>It's probably great for them, but from my understanding it can be difficult to become a member of a club if you didn't get in one at the right time.
I think overall this is probably good for the clubs, assuming it's easy to create a new one. A bunch of smaller groups seems more pleasant than one increasingly unwieldy group.
I think overall this is probably good for the clubs, assuming it's easy to create a new one. A bunch of smaller groups seems more pleasant than one increasingly unwieldy group.
> can be difficult to become a member of a club if you didn't get in one at the right time.
That applies to all repeated social events, doesn't it?
Unless it is something that has an annual "new class", but that's also a "right time".
That applies to all repeated social events, doesn't it?
Unless it is something that has an annual "new class", but that's also a "right time".
I’m currently reading Jacques Ellul’s The Technological Society (really a must-read these days, like Mumford’s Pentagon of Power and Kaczynski’s Industrial Society and its Future) and I underlined this summary of Homans:
“‘Formerly, when a New England family convoked a ‘bee’ (that is, a meeting for working in common), it was for all concerned one of the most pleasurable times of the year. The work was scarcely more than a pretext for coming together.’ The activity of sustaining social relations and human contacts predominated over the technical scheme of things and the obligation to work, which were secondary causes.”
“‘Formerly, when a New England family convoked a ‘bee’ (that is, a meeting for working in common), it was for all concerned one of the most pleasurable times of the year. The work was scarcely more than a pretext for coming together.’ The activity of sustaining social relations and human contacts predominated over the technical scheme of things and the obligation to work, which were secondary causes.”
I have a reading list you might enjoy!
https://www.are.na/justin-s-ptylb5wff1u
https://www.are.na/justin-s-ptylb5wff1u
>> The point is to have an excuse to meet and talk to people
and drink wine or coffee!
and drink wine or coffee!
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> Most book clubs are doing it wrong... You have one meeting per book.... The problem is that there’s no time to cash in on anyone else’s insights.
> My book club started four years ago to read Infinite Jest.
Well SHEESH -- most book clubs aren't trying to read 1,079 page long books. Of course you're going to need to break that up.
But the idea that anyone else is doing it "wrong" is both nonsensical and incredibly arrogant. Book clubs are usually concerned with much shorter books that are more easily accessible, where of course you can understand each others' insights afterwards.
And for me, the goal isn't just (or even primarily) to understand the book better or "cash in", as it is more to understand your friends better and enjoy time together. Even if you haven't read the book at all, you can go to hear what they have to say and discuss the topics raised generally.
(If your goal is primarily to understand the book better, you'll probably get a lot more out of reading reviews, analysis, etc. online that meeting with friends, unless your friends happen to be English professors, writers for the New Yorker, etc.)
> My book club started four years ago to read Infinite Jest.
Well SHEESH -- most book clubs aren't trying to read 1,079 page long books. Of course you're going to need to break that up.
But the idea that anyone else is doing it "wrong" is both nonsensical and incredibly arrogant. Book clubs are usually concerned with much shorter books that are more easily accessible, where of course you can understand each others' insights afterwards.
And for me, the goal isn't just (or even primarily) to understand the book better or "cash in", as it is more to understand your friends better and enjoy time together. Even if you haven't read the book at all, you can go to hear what they have to say and discuss the topics raised generally.
(If your goal is primarily to understand the book better, you'll probably get a lot more out of reading reviews, analysis, etc. online that meeting with friends, unless your friends happen to be English professors, writers for the New Yorker, etc.)
Yeah this is written from a pretty narrow perspective
Relevant questions: what bookclubs was the author familiar with? and what books were they reading?
The bookclubs I'm familiar with are all run by and for the sake of their members, and if the goal is either encourage regular reading or just social, they'll checkpoint at the same pace regardless of the book (eg every 2-4 weeks) and decide how much to read depending... on the book?
The idea that most bookclubs wouldn't do this seems very bizarre to me, and I just can't imagine the sampling the author had done prior to this post
Relevant questions: what bookclubs was the author familiar with? and what books were they reading?
The bookclubs I'm familiar with are all run by and for the sake of their members, and if the goal is either encourage regular reading or just social, they'll checkpoint at the same pace regardless of the book (eg every 2-4 weeks) and decide how much to read depending... on the book?
The idea that most bookclubs wouldn't do this seems very bizarre to me, and I just can't imagine the sampling the author had done prior to this post
Few observations from my bookclub:
A bookclub is not a class. For most people it’s an excuse to get together, have a drink and talk about a thing they like in a lightly structured manner. What OP is describing sounds more like a study group.
If I don’t like the book I don’t want to read it for months and months.
A bookclub is not a class. For most people it’s an excuse to get together, have a drink and talk about a thing they like in a lightly structured manner. What OP is describing sounds more like a study group.
If I don’t like the book I don’t want to read it for months and months.
An observation from my wife's book club. They spend 15 minutes talking about a book that perhaps 50% of them red, and the remaining two hours talking about other things.
The 1-2 women that were actually serious about book analysis quit the book club.
The 1-2 women that were actually serious about book analysis quit the book club.
Before the pandemic, I usually switched between attending 2 different book clubs.
One is exactly how you said, and the other had a host who a list of prepared questions and trivia to discuss, and pretty much goes down her list each time, and everyone gets a chance to answer each if they have anything.
I've found value in both types. I learn more from the latter, usually, but I enjoy the former, too.
One is exactly how you said, and the other had a host who a list of prepared questions and trivia to discuss, and pretty much goes down her list each time, and everyone gets a chance to answer each if they have anything.
I've found value in both types. I learn more from the latter, usually, but I enjoy the former, too.
Also, we can generally only find an hour per month that the people in my book club can meet up (and then they individually need to find many hours in the preceding month to read the book).
I like the idea of a weekly club with partial book assignments, but that's more time than a lot of people are able (or willing) to give it.
I like the idea of a weekly club with partial book assignments, but that's more time than a lot of people are able (or willing) to give it.
I will say that a book like Infinite Jest is a terrible choice for the usual, more casual bookclub.
I’m not sure about that: without that, how will anyone know that you’ve read Infinite Jest?
Goodreads. Duh.
Prominent spot on the bookshelf? I love DFWs essays but never made it through the tome
[deleted]
We run a group in Barcelona where we meet once per week and read the book aloud. It's technically not a "book club", but rather "pronunciation improvement group" – while we read, an organizer who is a native-speaker corrects the mistakes on the go – but as we'd finished already 4 fantastic books together, we obviously had a plenty of opportunity and time to discuss what we're reading, I would qualify it's as a book club for sure.
This club format is not just great for improving English (you develop listening, reading and speaking skills at the same time), but also have become one of the most favourite activity of mine during the week – we usually meet in some lovely place in the Saturday morning, drink coffee with croissants, meet wonderful smart people, discuss life and books, while enjoying views on Sagrada Familia.
Having this experience, idea of reading silently at home and then meeting once to briefly share the opinion about a book, doesn't sound exciting at all :)
This club format is not just great for improving English (you develop listening, reading and speaking skills at the same time), but also have become one of the most favourite activity of mine during the week – we usually meet in some lovely place in the Saturday morning, drink coffee with croissants, meet wonderful smart people, discuss life and books, while enjoying views on Sagrada Familia.
Having this experience, idea of reading silently at home and then meeting once to briefly share the opinion about a book, doesn't sound exciting at all :)
This sounds awesome and would be something I'd definitely join. (Sadly not being based in Barcelona though :)
What books did you read and how was this event initiated?
What books did you read and how was this event initiated?
How much time do you spend reading the book vs the other activities?
My experience with a non-fiction book club was somewhere in-between the 'study group' and 'social club' extremes. We ran the club via a meetup group for about three years, with a 'core' group of ~10 people (of which about half would show up each month). Each month would also bring a few random meetup people who we would see once and never again.
a) Many non-fiction books are effectively a 'very good essay' in the first couple chapters, followed by N*100 pages of lower-quality expansion on the initial topic. It's completely OK if most people in the meeting don't read the whole thing. It's also much easier to skip around in non-fiction books, since the chapters are often more modular.
b) We would have a rotating 'moderator' who generally read the whole book, usually before it got picked up by the group. The moderator generally picks a subset of 'good chapters' which people can read if they aren't going to get through the whole book. Usually intro + chapter 1 + two later chapters with the best points.
c) For non-fiction, outside experience is often just as valuable to the discussion as having read the book. Having a really relevant person involved int he discussion is fantastic.
d) We also had a some great experiences with inviting the author to the discussion group, for books written by people who live in the area. We would often get ~20 people to turn out for these ones, and the authors were very happy to come talk about the thing they care about to even our small group.
a) Many non-fiction books are effectively a 'very good essay' in the first couple chapters, followed by N*100 pages of lower-quality expansion on the initial topic. It's completely OK if most people in the meeting don't read the whole thing. It's also much easier to skip around in non-fiction books, since the chapters are often more modular.
b) We would have a rotating 'moderator' who generally read the whole book, usually before it got picked up by the group. The moderator generally picks a subset of 'good chapters' which people can read if they aren't going to get through the whole book. Usually intro + chapter 1 + two later chapters with the best points.
c) For non-fiction, outside experience is often just as valuable to the discussion as having read the book. Having a really relevant person involved int he discussion is fantastic.
d) We also had a some great experiences with inviting the author to the discussion group, for books written by people who live in the area. We would often get ~20 people to turn out for these ones, and the authors were very happy to come talk about the thing they care about to even our small group.
I've also been running a nonfiction book club that reads popular science for 7 years now. It's always been OK in our group to only have read part of it, or to have watched an author talk or PBS documentary version. Nonfiction books mostly can't be spoiled, and it's possible to talk about the author's thesis by having just listening to a talk.
Also, some books just don't lead to much discussion because they don't have any overarching theme -- some are collections of anecdotes and short episodes that are often fun to read but don't provide much to talk about beyond "what did you learn that most surprised you?" or "which section was your favorite?"
Also, some books just don't lead to much discussion because they don't have any overarching theme -- some are collections of anecdotes and short episodes that are often fun to read but don't provide much to talk about beyond "what did you learn that most surprised you?" or "which section was your favorite?"
> Many non-fiction books are effectively a 'very good essay' in the first couple chapters, followed by N*100 pages of lower-quality expansion
I wonder if an essay club, rather than a book club, would work. You pick something short enough that it's easy to read, but still with enough ideas in to talk about. You then have time to either dig into the text really deeply, or use it as a prompt for a largely unrelated but still interesting conversation, HN comments style.
I wonder if an essay club, rather than a book club, would work. You pick something short enough that it's easy to read, but still with enough ideas in to talk about. You then have time to either dig into the text really deeply, or use it as a prompt for a largely unrelated but still interesting conversation, HN comments style.
Yeah, maaaaaybe. My guess is you'd end up reading a lot of book chapters for the essay club.
The problem I think is that the economics of writing books is much more author-friendly than writing longform articles. So by the time you put a shitpile of research into writing something /good/, you really should be writing a book. Even if the 'cream' of the content is about three chapters. And the rest of the deep dive is still worth it for many readers (and those who aren't reading the whole book for book club can still go back for the rest later, if they want to).
The problem I think is that the economics of writing books is much more author-friendly than writing longform articles. So by the time you put a shitpile of research into writing something /good/, you really should be writing a book. Even if the 'cream' of the content is about three chapters. And the rest of the deep dive is still worth it for many readers (and those who aren't reading the whole book for book club can still go back for the rest later, if they want to).
I had a theology course at university like that. We got a list of 2-3 "suggested readings", of which any given student read 0-2. Then there was loosely structured time to discuss in small groups, then a more structured class discussion.
Any book club that gets people to read and show up is not "doing it wrong."
I'd be interested in a format suggested by the author, but I think I'm the only one in my book club that would. The fact that I'm regularly reading and talking about books with a group without any particular literary bent is something very valuable to me, even if we don't mine every hidden treasure of the books we read.
I'd be interested in a format suggested by the author, but I think I'm the only one in my book club that would. The fact that I'm regularly reading and talking about books with a group without any particular literary bent is something very valuable to me, even if we don't mine every hidden treasure of the books we read.
Seriously. I would absolutely be interested in a book club like that, especially one that went through the "Great Books" or whatever...But I'm also the only one of my friends who really reads outside genre fiction so sadly no chance of that happening soon unless I can find one at the local university that's open to the public.
You could start or join a remote bookclub / study group
Especially given current circumstances, this would possibly help you meet the analysis goal
Especially given current circumstances, this would possibly help you meet the analysis goal
Aye, but I've found those generally tend to have worse engagement over time than in-person ones. Much worse, which is the problem. Though maybe I am being too pessimistic about it; might look around and see what there is to be had. I'd love one with a more academic bent.
I was in a classics reading group. We met weekly and plowed through material. It was not a democracy but instead run by a guy who knew his stuff. I read a lot of stuff I didn't want to (way too much gore in the Greek tragedies for my taste).
It wasn't an excuse to meet and kvetch. It was closer to a class. It was about the books. Every other book club I've been in has been a pale imitation. The one I'm in now is stocked with PhDs and Berkeley profs and isn't even a drone fest. It doesn't even reach a high school level of engagement with the material.
Our sports club is sidelined because of the quarantine. So I'll admit, they're not very good at this. I'm going to suggest that we read books about the sport next time.
It wasn't an excuse to meet and kvetch. It was closer to a class. It was about the books. Every other book club I've been in has been a pale imitation. The one I'm in now is stocked with PhDs and Berkeley profs and isn't even a drone fest. It doesn't even reach a high school level of engagement with the material.
Our sports club is sidelined because of the quarantine. So I'll admit, they're not very good at this. I'm going to suggest that we read books about the sport next time.
That classics reading group honestly sounds amazing. I wish I could find something like that in person, or online.
> way too much gore in the Greek tragedies for my taste
At my secondary school, the drama society put on a production of Oedipus Rex [1]. The scene where Oedipus blinds himself was so graphic that some of the younger pupils screamed and fled the hall.
[1] Which title my Greek teacher was furious about. It's either Οἰδίπους Τύραννος or Oedipus the King, there's no reason to use a Latin name.
At my secondary school, the drama society put on a production of Oedipus Rex [1]. The scene where Oedipus blinds himself was so graphic that some of the younger pupils screamed and fled the hall.
[1] Which title my Greek teacher was furious about. It's either Οἰδίπους Τύραννος or Oedipus the King, there's no reason to use a Latin name.
One alternate way to do a book club:
1. Meet every 3 to 6 months.
2. Everyone bring books to swap.
3. Everyone bring a list of books they really loved.
4. Each person takes turn talking about the books they loved while sitting around a dining room table with snacks and drinks.
5. It's fun if other people have read the same books. It's even more fun if they disagree.
6. Last time I did this I added 10 books to my "To Read Pile" and traded books with friends.
7. Everyone wanted to do it again.
1. Meet every 3 to 6 months.
2. Everyone bring books to swap.
3. Everyone bring a list of books they really loved.
4. Each person takes turn talking about the books they loved while sitting around a dining room table with snacks and drinks.
5. It's fun if other people have read the same books. It's even more fun if they disagree.
6. Last time I did this I added 10 books to my "To Read Pile" and traded books with friends.
7. Everyone wanted to do it again.
Something i do:
1. Find 10-20 friends
2. Go on holiday for a week in a cottage in the middle of nowhere with terrible internet speed
3. Bring a dozen books each and put them in a huge pile in the middle of one room
4. Eat a lovely big meal together in the evening
5. Mercilessly shame anyone who is doing anything other than reading a book, cooking, or performing essential biological functions before dinner time
You don't all read the same book, but there will be plenty of overlap, and it usually works out that there are a few books that many people have read.
1. Find 10-20 friends
2. Go on holiday for a week in a cottage in the middle of nowhere with terrible internet speed
3. Bring a dozen books each and put them in a huge pile in the middle of one room
4. Eat a lovely big meal together in the evening
5. Mercilessly shame anyone who is doing anything other than reading a book, cooking, or performing essential biological functions before dinner time
You don't all read the same book, but there will be plenty of overlap, and it usually works out that there are a few books that many people have read.
I WANT TO GO TO THERE
A friend who's been running a book club swears by (4). He goes around and asks the same question every week: "What did you read, and how did it make you feel?".
It gets people talking about the _why of the books_, particularly why they found it interesting, or what ticked for them. This makes for a more engaging discussion.
It gets people talking about the _why of the books_, particularly why they found it interesting, or what ticked for them. This makes for a more engaging discussion.
I’ve had a similar experience to this with “Six pack and a paperback” style parties — everyone brings some beer and a book to share.
After a couple of them with similar people, there’s inherently a dialogue about which books you previously had taken or brought, why you chose to bring a particular book this time. The general context is very literary focused by framing.
After a couple of them with similar people, there’s inherently a dialogue about which books you previously had taken or brought, why you chose to bring a particular book this time. The general context is very literary focused by framing.
> The discussion goes on for one or two hours before it runs out of gas, and then the group picks the next book, and you agree to meet in another month or six weeks.
I have been running a book club for the past year and a half and that is a fair summary of how it goes. It is definitely hard to keep a discussion on topic for more than a couple of hours without it becoming a generic social event, especially if there are late arrivals. Productivity of work meetings tends to approach zero after an hour; so why should it be different for book clubs? Denser books should require more discussion, but doing it in a single session is hard. The social aspect is fun and is a part of why I run the book club I do, but it is a competing priority with the book itself and different people in the club prioritize the two differently. The prioritization changes for everyone as time progresses and the amount of alcohol consumed increases.
Recommendation of having smaller meetings while the book is in progress deserves a trial. I will adopt it for the next book in my club. While we are holding these virtually, it seems that people are having easier time parceling an hour of their evening time so this will be practical.
There are a few things that differentiates my book club from the authors description of how a typical book club operates. Firstly, I select the book that I want to read and I think my friends will enjoy that is of appropriate time investment. This means there is no griping about book selection and having to competing desires of multiple people. Secondly there is a set schedule: 7:30pm on the first Monday of every other month at my apartment. This means there is no griping about choice of venue (an issue in NYC) and rescheduling to fit prior commitments the participants have. I make an announcement on Facebook and people have a choice to participate or not. This has been working out rather well with turns outs of somewhere between half a dozen to a dozen friends depending on the book. Conversations have been good and organizational investment very reasonable.
I have been running a book club for the past year and a half and that is a fair summary of how it goes. It is definitely hard to keep a discussion on topic for more than a couple of hours without it becoming a generic social event, especially if there are late arrivals. Productivity of work meetings tends to approach zero after an hour; so why should it be different for book clubs? Denser books should require more discussion, but doing it in a single session is hard. The social aspect is fun and is a part of why I run the book club I do, but it is a competing priority with the book itself and different people in the club prioritize the two differently. The prioritization changes for everyone as time progresses and the amount of alcohol consumed increases.
Recommendation of having smaller meetings while the book is in progress deserves a trial. I will adopt it for the next book in my club. While we are holding these virtually, it seems that people are having easier time parceling an hour of their evening time so this will be practical.
There are a few things that differentiates my book club from the authors description of how a typical book club operates. Firstly, I select the book that I want to read and I think my friends will enjoy that is of appropriate time investment. This means there is no griping about book selection and having to competing desires of multiple people. Secondly there is a set schedule: 7:30pm on the first Monday of every other month at my apartment. This means there is no griping about choice of venue (an issue in NYC) and rescheduling to fit prior commitments the participants have. I make an announcement on Facebook and people have a choice to participate or not. This has been working out rather well with turns outs of somewhere between half a dozen to a dozen friends depending on the book. Conversations have been good and organizational investment very reasonable.
I fully agree with the author on the problem, but the suggested solution of doing periodic readings together is a hard sell for busy ppl to commit to - I find synchronous reading boring.
There are a few ways to increase the chance of a book club:
(1) Reduce the reading length per session.
(2) Provide a carrot to encourage ppl to do the reading.
These two levers led a few friends and I to start something called Short Story Club [1], which is really starting to take off now.
It's relatively easy to get folks to read a 30-40 page short story, and we try to provide a free copy so people don't have to make a purchase. IMO short stories are super underrated and overlooked - many of them pack a punch bigger than the average novel.
We start each session with small group discussions over Zoom.
For the carrot, we get the author of the short story to come on the Zoom and do a Q&A session, letting attendees ask their questions directly via video like in a real event. So far, we've focused on science fiction, and we've gotten Ted Chiang, Ken Liu, and Cory Doctorow to join us.
So, even if you're not doing short stories for your own book club, a better way is to chunk up big books and meet periodically. Make it an event: if in person make an effort to cook or provide good snacks, music, whatever it takes to make it easy for people to commit to. And have good discussion points ready.
[1] https://www.shortstory.club - if you're interested, we have Hugh Howey coming next week to discuss WOOL, one of my fav stories
There are a few ways to increase the chance of a book club:
(1) Reduce the reading length per session.
(2) Provide a carrot to encourage ppl to do the reading.
These two levers led a few friends and I to start something called Short Story Club [1], which is really starting to take off now.
It's relatively easy to get folks to read a 30-40 page short story, and we try to provide a free copy so people don't have to make a purchase. IMO short stories are super underrated and overlooked - many of them pack a punch bigger than the average novel.
We start each session with small group discussions over Zoom.
For the carrot, we get the author of the short story to come on the Zoom and do a Q&A session, letting attendees ask their questions directly via video like in a real event. So far, we've focused on science fiction, and we've gotten Ted Chiang, Ken Liu, and Cory Doctorow to join us.
So, even if you're not doing short stories for your own book club, a better way is to chunk up big books and meet periodically. Make it an event: if in person make an effort to cook or provide good snacks, music, whatever it takes to make it easy for people to commit to. And have good discussion points ready.
[1] https://www.shortstory.club - if you're interested, we have Hugh Howey coming next week to discuss WOOL, one of my fav stories
I’ve never belonged to an actual book club, but have followed along as a podcast I listen to did a virtual book club. They did it as the article suggests, reading a small portion of the book each week and discussing that one portion for around an hour and a half.
If anyone’s interested, it is the Grey Company podcast, which began as a podcast discussing the Lord of the Rings card game, but branched out to doing the afore mentioned read through of Lord of the Rings.
Also of interest is Tolkien Road, a podcast which reads through and discusses the Silmarillion and other Tolkien works in a bit by bit fashion.
If anyone’s interested, it is the Grey Company podcast, which began as a podcast discussing the Lord of the Rings card game, but branched out to doing the afore mentioned read through of Lord of the Rings.
Also of interest is Tolkien Road, a podcast which reads through and discusses the Silmarillion and other Tolkien works in a bit by bit fashion.
> You would never run a class this way
As a literature graduate, this made me laugh. Maybe literature courses are more leisurely stateside, but for me it was a book a week (not 4 to 6 weeks, as OP suggests). That was literally how classes were run.
And it was stupid for the reasons outlined. I remember my class on Ulysses mostly because a) I was acutely conscious of not having been fully keeping up in the 250 pages before the closing chapter and b) when I arrived at class it became clear after about 2 minutes that only I had finished it, because I had read it over the summer break because I was really keen on those bragging rights, but everyone else has tried to read it in one week, which is a doomed endeavour if ever there was one. It would have been a better experience for everyone concerned if more than one person had done the reading, but that was not realistic on the assumption that Ulysses can be polished off in the same time as The Power and the Glory.
As a literature graduate, this made me laugh. Maybe literature courses are more leisurely stateside, but for me it was a book a week (not 4 to 6 weeks, as OP suggests). That was literally how classes were run.
And it was stupid for the reasons outlined. I remember my class on Ulysses mostly because a) I was acutely conscious of not having been fully keeping up in the 250 pages before the closing chapter and b) when I arrived at class it became clear after about 2 minutes that only I had finished it, because I had read it over the summer break because I was really keen on those bragging rights, but everyone else has tried to read it in one week, which is a doomed endeavour if ever there was one. It would have been a better experience for everyone concerned if more than one person had done the reading, but that was not realistic on the assumption that Ulysses can be polished off in the same time as The Power and the Glory.
From the comments here it seems like we've got a case of an overloaded term.
Just like you need terms like "intramural" and "club" to differentiate the type of sports team to which you belong there seems to be a need for a common and well understood differentiation between book groups which are primarily social and which are geared toward analysis and/or study.
The objectives of the two groups don't seem to mesh well at all so perhaps they are deserving of their own terms.
Just like you need terms like "intramural" and "club" to differentiate the type of sports team to which you belong there seems to be a need for a common and well understood differentiation between book groups which are primarily social and which are geared toward analysis and/or study.
The objectives of the two groups don't seem to mesh well at all so perhaps they are deserving of their own terms.
Me personally, I'd use "book club" for the social one, and "study group" for the academic one.
The author seems to be describing a study group, not a book club.
The author seems to be describing a study group, not a book club.
Are there any good online programming clubs?
It would be fun to work on a project together every weekend.
It would be fun to work on a project together every weekend.
The method described in this article sounds more similar to a college study group than a book club. To each their own on how you enjoy reading a book with friends. It’s pretty arrogant to just say “if you enjoy it this other way, you’re wrong.”
I always wanted a club where everyone was reading the same ebook -- and left comments and highlights that were shared throughout the text.
Amazon's Kindle has this capability -- but I've never heard anyone who's actually taken advantage of it.
Amazon's Kindle has this capability -- but I've never heard anyone who's actually taken advantage of it.
Also, I think it'd be cool to see the highlights and comments left by celebrities or "authoritative" readers. I'm really surprised this hasn't become a thing...
https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/677-share-your-kindle-no...
https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/677-share-your-kindle-no...
anyone know of some good online book clubs?
I have this idea in the back of my mind for a while, which is a mailing list or forum where members agree to read a specific book every 2 weeks and then write a review about it or discuss it online.
every member gets to suggest a book as what to read next and whatever suggestion gets the most votes will be read. it would be highly specific to keep the communities small enough and to really dive deep on certain works/authors. this could be done using categories. a category has certain rules for the books to be read, and could be titles which are at least 100 years old (my pet peeve), in the public domain, and limited to n-authors, ... one could then also have all future readings be descendents of that category/author (e.g. in follow-up readings read only/everything that an author has cited, or things they have read etc). kind of like a snow-ball system. but there are many ways how to structure this to make it interesting for different crowds.
I have this idea in the back of my mind for a while, which is a mailing list or forum where members agree to read a specific book every 2 weeks and then write a review about it or discuss it online.
every member gets to suggest a book as what to read next and whatever suggestion gets the most votes will be read. it would be highly specific to keep the communities small enough and to really dive deep on certain works/authors. this could be done using categories. a category has certain rules for the books to be read, and could be titles which are at least 100 years old (my pet peeve), in the public domain, and limited to n-authors, ... one could then also have all future readings be descendents of that category/author (e.g. in follow-up readings read only/everything that an author has cited, or things they have read etc). kind of like a snow-ball system. but there are many ways how to structure this to make it interesting for different crowds.
I know John Green and Rosianna Halse Rojas run https://www.lifeslibrarybookclub.com/
It's more of a broadcast style bookclub (although iiuc, you can contribute to discussion via discord), but it could meet your needs
It's more of a broadcast style bookclub (although iiuc, you can contribute to discussion via discord), but it could meet your needs
I found this while searching reddit:
https://www.old.reddit.com/r/books/comments/3ibtw5/the_many_...
https://www.old.reddit.com/r/books/comments/3ibtw5/the_many_...
You could probably set on up on Tildes? (Although it might be a bit quiet at first). https://tildes.net/~books
cool thanks, this looks interesting. never heard of it. much appreciated.
Hey Dan, do you have a link to register on tildes? Seems to be invite only for me.
Another great experience I want to share is the online bookchallenge I participated in, organized by Dmitry Dubilet (founder of Monobank). It marries simple economic incentives design with love to reading books.
The idea is that each participant sends some money into the pool – 10 euros in that particular case – and commit to read a book from the list in 3 weeks. (There was a prepared list of diverse set of books like "You must be joking, Mr. Feynman" or "Freakonomics"). By the end of the challenge, a simple oracle mechanism was used to determine who read a book or not – everyone was randomly assigned a few people who have chosen the same book and had to make a call to talk about a book and check if person have read it. Once verification was done, money from the pool have been divided between people who read the book.
I especially loved that concept due to the fact that it's almost exactly what people in cryptocommunity try to do with tokens and cryptoeconomy – create economic incentives (in a new way), new oracles (mechanisms of connecting economic system to the offline world) and change peoples behavior in the socially beneficial way.
But this time it was done just with a mobile banking app and a Google Forms.
The idea is that each participant sends some money into the pool – 10 euros in that particular case – and commit to read a book from the list in 3 weeks. (There was a prepared list of diverse set of books like "You must be joking, Mr. Feynman" or "Freakonomics"). By the end of the challenge, a simple oracle mechanism was used to determine who read a book or not – everyone was randomly assigned a few people who have chosen the same book and had to make a call to talk about a book and check if person have read it. Once verification was done, money from the pool have been divided between people who read the book.
I especially loved that concept due to the fact that it's almost exactly what people in cryptocommunity try to do with tokens and cryptoeconomy – create economic incentives (in a new way), new oracles (mechanisms of connecting economic system to the offline world) and change peoples behavior in the socially beneficial way.
But this time it was done just with a mobile banking app and a Google Forms.
I think that's simultaneously the most depressing and hilarious thing I have read on HN.
I think this sounds like an excellent approach for reading a long book that is worth dissecting, but unfortunately it's a time intensive approach. I suspect the once a month approach is a time-conscious approach rather than what we would select for a serious reading.
what the author describes resembles salons[0] more than book clubs. salons have some (negative) connotations of idle aristocracy, but can be modernized to simply be a bunch of people getting together expressly to discuss interesting ideas around wine/beer/coffee. those ideas could be a few chapters of an interesting book.
i've always wanted to start a salon (insert lots of excuses for why i haven't here).
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_(gathering)
i've always wanted to start a salon (insert lots of excuses for why i haven't here).
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_(gathering)
I would say the opposite. To me, the characteristic of a salon is free-ranging discussion on whatever the participants find interesting. What Somers is suggesting is a tight focus on a defined topic.
Arguably, real-world “book clubs” are largely petit bourgeois salons, without the name with the (as you note) negative connotation because of the association with the pre-capitalist aristocracy.
Personally I'd go a step further and say if you want to really read the book together you should read it together on Kindle and make shared notes and highlights as you're all reading so you can note where others, or you, are struggling. This would truly help it become a collaboration moreso than a retrospective.
A book isn't something you're supposed to read and finish. It's a set of ideas you develop over multiple reads, if a book isn't worth reading multiple times it's probably not worth reading once.
This is obviously true for non fiction programming books where you can spend years developing a library off of ideas from a single chapter but I was also surprised to learn that it's also true for fiction books. My girlfriend doesn't mind spoilers in novels because she reasons if a book isn't good enough with spoilers it's probably not good enough without the spoilers too.
The goal should be to enjoy reading not read, it's deceptively unproductive to force yourself to finish a book.
This is obviously true for non fiction programming books where you can spend years developing a library off of ideas from a single chapter but I was also surprised to learn that it's also true for fiction books. My girlfriend doesn't mind spoilers in novels because she reasons if a book isn't good enough with spoilers it's probably not good enough without the spoilers too.
The goal should be to enjoy reading not read, it's deceptively unproductive to force yourself to finish a book.
I respect and partially agree with what you’re saying. However, your post sounds a bit too absolutist to me.
In reality books, like any form of communication are incredibly diverse on the production as well on the consumption side. A novel is very different than a reference. A teaching book is very different than a biography. Some books are more about the journey - some are more about the destination.
There are many different ways to consume (some or all of) a book. And that’s driven by both: how it was written and what a reader wants out of it at that moment in time.
Books are one of the manifestations of the incredible plurality in our species.
In reality books, like any form of communication are incredibly diverse on the production as well on the consumption side. A novel is very different than a reference. A teaching book is very different than a biography. Some books are more about the journey - some are more about the destination.
There are many different ways to consume (some or all of) a book. And that’s driven by both: how it was written and what a reader wants out of it at that moment in time.
Books are one of the manifestations of the incredible plurality in our species.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I really enjoy reading fast books which have no value other than to make me chuckle or give me a thrill[1] where my aim is _not_ to be productive because well you know life isn't just a big ol hamster wheel ...
though I agree that most books which I read which stay with me mentally and where I see myself going back to them are far from easy. These are in the class of being at least x years old (Jacques Ellul, Marx, Mumford, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Kant, Zapffe, Heidegger, Foucault, Bertrand Russel, Cioran, Dostoyevski, Kafka, Orwell, Sinclair, J. Austin ...) and preferably in the public domain.
A book which I never read at least twice isn't something I'd consider having an impact on me. But then sometimes drifting aimlessly with "wtf did I just read?" moments has more impact/effect on me than anything that is listed as a great classic. So there is no reason to be elitist imho (and I can't overstate the _humble_ here since 20 years ago I thought Dean Koontz novels were the bees knees).
[1] "Bill Bryson", John Cleese, or the absolutely hilarious "Let's Pretend This Never Happened" by Jenny Lawson.
though I agree that most books which I read which stay with me mentally and where I see myself going back to them are far from easy. These are in the class of being at least x years old (Jacques Ellul, Marx, Mumford, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Kant, Zapffe, Heidegger, Foucault, Bertrand Russel, Cioran, Dostoyevski, Kafka, Orwell, Sinclair, J. Austin ...) and preferably in the public domain.
A book which I never read at least twice isn't something I'd consider having an impact on me. But then sometimes drifting aimlessly with "wtf did I just read?" moments has more impact/effect on me than anything that is listed as a great classic. So there is no reason to be elitist imho (and I can't overstate the _humble_ here since 20 years ago I thought Dean Koontz novels were the bees knees).
[1] "Bill Bryson", John Cleese, or the absolutely hilarious "Let's Pretend This Never Happened" by Jenny Lawson.
Books often are read and finished. I commit to such act before I start, even.
But I'll grant that any given set of ideas and concepts and wild fancy in any form of literature, this conglomeration, is truly strengthened by frequent mindful re-visits. Whatever the subject.
Books are up to the interest of the reader, on behalf of the author. Getting through one, in one or many sittings, is a pretty nice endeavour.
But I'll grant that any given set of ideas and concepts and wild fancy in any form of literature, this conglomeration, is truly strengthened by frequent mindful re-visits. Whatever the subject.
Books are up to the interest of the reader, on behalf of the author. Getting through one, in one or many sittings, is a pretty nice endeavour.
> A book isn't something you're supposed to read and finish
Shit, I’ve been doing it wrong all these years. Thanks for setting me straight.
Shit, I’ve been doing it wrong all these years. Thanks for setting me straight.
That's a study group not a book club.
I am charmed by the idea that my neighborhood book club would ever consider Ulysses or Pale Fire. Now and then somebody comes up with something I haven't read and enjoy encountering. Mostly I like the club for a) not interfering with my ordinary reading, and ) a chance to get together with neighbors over dinner and wine.
Very timely topic. Please excuse me for hijacking this to gather some input on the following:
I'm curious to hear if anyone has stories, success or otherwise, and methods on organizing a non-fiction study group.
(Assume: small groups, serious and experienced participants.)
Bonus marks for any "bear in minds" and "gotchas" when a plague forces you to resort to online group readings and discussions.
I'm curious to hear if anyone has stories, success or otherwise, and methods on organizing a non-fiction study group.
(Assume: small groups, serious and experienced participants.)
Bonus marks for any "bear in minds" and "gotchas" when a plague forces you to resort to online group readings and discussions.
I and 2 friends had a political science reading/discussion group that lasted a while. The most important things were keeping the reading short and polemic, and asking a question that we'd all respond to in writing via a short essay before gathering to discuss. Oh, and drinking heavily. The writing was necessary to keep us on track while drunk.
I see, keeping the reading short and focused plus an essay sounds effective. (I'm not good with alcohol, so I'll skip that part ;-) I can stay on track reasonably well without any external stimuli.)
This evening I'll be out at a nearby nature reserve with a fellow serious participant to talk about organizing an advanced study/discussion group on Greek & Roman philosophy -- mostly Hellenistic.
Thanks for the input, xapata, much appreciated.
This evening I'll be out at a nearby nature reserve with a fellow serious participant to talk about organizing an advanced study/discussion group on Greek & Roman philosophy -- mostly Hellenistic.
Thanks for the input, xapata, much appreciated.
We were heavily inspired by learning about the Metaphysical Club. You could say it was a sort of book club. Some of the United States' most famous philosophers were members. They named the club ironically, because they hated the idea of metaphysics. One of my favorite anecdotes was when they considered changing their name to the "Whiskey Punch Club."
The Metaphysical Club https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000OI1AF2
The Metaphysical Club https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000OI1AF2
I went to a political philosophy discussion group for a couple of years, held in university rooms, but open to the public, usually 4 to 8 people attending. Advertised on the philosophy department mailing list and maybe elsewhere. Mostly students, but whoever was in the area and interested in that week's piece would show up. I think it was for 2 hours, in the afternoon, once every 2 weeks. There was a small core of regulars and a nominal leader who had final say over what would be chosen for next time, mostly choosing from the suggestions of others at the end of the meeting, and announcing the selection online a few days later. Everyone in it seemed to be postgraduate, except me! Almost every time someone opened their mouth it was impressive. Usually the reading was a classic essay or couple of chapters from a book, not always strictly political philosophy, just somehow connected - once it was Melville's Bartleby! That was the only fiction though. Essays/bits of book by Oakeshott, Dewey, Schmitt etc. Essays by well-known philosophers I'd heard of but usually not read. Recent stuff too, by people I'd not heard of. Always an interesting choice, a very wide variety. Something you could read in a couple of hours. There was no off-topic chatting during the meeting once it got started, by choice – there was never nearly enough time to talk about what we'd read. Before and after I had some nice chats though, as I got to know the regulars a bit. It was friendly, but getting to know the writers and their writing was the main thing. I loved it so much.
I even made a discussion blog for the group at the time, I wanted more discussion about each piece in the comments, but it didn't take off.
I did consider organizing something like it myself. Getting exclusively such high-quality attendees seems unlikely in a non-university setting. Discussion quality would seem the tricky thing, anyway. Maybe I'm spoiled, because I've seen how good it can get. Good luck!
I even made a discussion blog for the group at the time, I wanted more discussion about each piece in the comments, but it didn't take off.
I did consider organizing something like it myself. Getting exclusively such high-quality attendees seems unlikely in a non-university setting. Discussion quality would seem the tricky thing, anyway. Maybe I'm spoiled, because I've seen how good it can get. Good luck!
Thanks for taking time to write this down; sounds very interesting. The discussion leading into relevant rabbit holes, like other essays and books, that make the reading experience that much richer is something I look forward to.
Luckily, I live in the vicinity of a 200-year old university. So I might first inquire at the Arts & Philosophy department.
Thanks, again. :-)
Luckily, I live in the vicinity of a 200-year old university. So I might first inquire at the Arts & Philosophy department.
Thanks, again. :-)
Joshua Kerievsky wrote a Pattern Language for study groups that came out of the Design Patterns Study Groups that we were a part of in the 1990s in NYC and Silicon Valley. Worth a skim: https://www.industriallogic.com/blog/pools-of-insight-study-...
I've tried the "book chunk club" approach too. Same problem. The right size chunk is a hard thing to optimize.
Never mind all that!
How about IJ? Have you folks made any progress at all on guessing what maybe actually happens? For example do we know anything at all about Hal and Gately digging up JOI's head? Even for example what possible use that would be to anybody?
How about IJ? Have you folks made any progress at all on guessing what maybe actually happens? For example do we know anything at all about Hal and Gately digging up JOI's head? Even for example what possible use that would be to anybody?
I've been to a tech 'code and bitch' ('stitch and bitch'). The premise was really obvious because everyone knew not to bring a laptop.
What the author wants isn't a book club. He wants a secular Bible study. Most people don't treat reading like that, though.
Did you ever finish Infinite Jest?
Reading that book needs a support group, not a book club. It was strange, I think someone recommended the book to me, I started reading it, and immediately regretted the purchase. Then, by chance watched 'The End of the Tour' and realized who the author was. That attempt, I made it to the YEAR OF THE DEPEND ADULT UNDERGARMENT so many times I lost count.
The book reminds me of reading unformatted code, something from a decompiler.
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I see other commentors saying book clubs as primarily social gatherings and about the book second. This strikes me as odd. If you want a social gathering, why have the pretense of reading books, just organize the social gathering, perhaps a weekly meeting at the local pub or someone's home. When I attend book clubs, it's about the literary aspects of the book first and any social interaction is incidental, such as if I really like another person's opinions, I'll go chat with them afterwards. Indeed, I would be particularly annoyed if I spent time reading a book and went to discuss it, and all I got were people not talking about the book, either in depth or at least shallowly, and I'd find another book club.
In regards to the ongoing nature of book clubs, discussing every chapter, I think is is a great idea, and the best avenue I've seen it happen through is a medium like Reddit (or Tildes.net), with a nested forum post for each chapter that people can not only look back on now but in the future. Indeed, r/bookclub and even other media related subreddits, like r/anime or your favorite TV show like r/gameofthrones, have such weekly threads for reading or rewatching the requisite media. This feels to me the best way to accomplish the author's goals. Of course, there is no real social interaction, but again, if you want social interaction, go to a social event that is explicitly (or sufficiently implicitly) stated that it is for socialization, such as a pub gathering. No one's going to be reading books with their friends at a pub.
In regards to the ongoing nature of book clubs, discussing every chapter, I think is is a great idea, and the best avenue I've seen it happen through is a medium like Reddit (or Tildes.net), with a nested forum post for each chapter that people can not only look back on now but in the future. Indeed, r/bookclub and even other media related subreddits, like r/anime or your favorite TV show like r/gameofthrones, have such weekly threads for reading or rewatching the requisite media. This feels to me the best way to accomplish the author's goals. Of course, there is no real social interaction, but again, if you want social interaction, go to a social event that is explicitly (or sufficiently implicitly) stated that it is for socialization, such as a pub gathering. No one's going to be reading books with their friends at a pub.
This is actually a good question, and the answer is that the book gives people who are new to this kind of group something to talk about and relate to. Such a book group has two anchors: "that group of friends I see each month", and "that book that's interesting (or fodder for derision)". Newcomers to the group don't have that first anchor, but having the second allows them to participate and feel comfortable.
Hmm I’d say all the book clubs I belong to are social first, book second; one club spends the majority of each meeting roasting the people who haven’t read the book, another good portion debating our selection procedures, and a minimal amount of time on the book itself. Different flavors for different people!
If that's the case, why have a "book" club at all, rather than make a social gathering? Let me be clear in that I also attend social events, but they're called social events on the face of it. If I'm attending a book club, I expect to talk about books.
> If that's the case, why have a "book" club at all
To get a conversation started, but it doesn't matter where it ends up.
Do you understand people making smalltalk and the purpose of it? It's like that.
To get a conversation started, but it doesn't matter where it ends up.
Do you understand people making smalltalk and the purpose of it? It's like that.
I said this in another comment, hope it clarifies my understanding:
Sure, I get smalltalk, and I now understand the dichotomy of book club types. Some people are expecting book clubs to be casual and others hardcore. Our definitions are not the same so our conclusions as to what book clubs should be are also not the same. I like both approaches but I like them to be delineated. If I'm with my friends I can appreciate it being a social gathering with a theme, but if I attend a "hardcore" book club, well, I expect it to be hardcore, talking about the book itself for most of the time.
Sure, I get smalltalk, and I now understand the dichotomy of book club types. Some people are expecting book clubs to be casual and others hardcore. Our definitions are not the same so our conclusions as to what book clubs should be are also not the same. I like both approaches but I like them to be delineated. If I'm with my friends I can appreciate it being a social gathering with a theme, but if I attend a "hardcore" book club, well, I expect it to be hardcore, talking about the book itself for most of the time.
It's a good excuse. And it attracts a Certain Kind of Person who wouldn't go for a different reason.
> I see other commentors saying book clubs as primarily social gatherings and about the book second. This strikes me as odd. If you want a social gathering, why have the pretense of reading books, just organize the social gathering, perhaps a weekly meeting at the local pub or someone's home.
What's your idea of a good first date?
What's your idea of a good first date?
This kinda misses the point of most book clubs. The point is to have an excuse to meet and talk to people - the book is secondary. In fact many people come to book clubs without having read that month's book, just for the social outlet. Perhaps that's silly from a literary perspective but it still serves a purpose.