The Myth of the Wealthy Welder(theatlantic.com)
theatlantic.com
The Myth of the Wealthy Welder
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/09/welding-doesnt-pay-as-well-as-republicans-think/597733/
310 コメント
You realize $7 an hour is $95,000 a year in 2019 cash? If i were offered that for hangover quality work burning rods at a good union job i would not think twice. id be able to afford the median home price in 1970 which was $23,000. These numbers seem to support the idea of the wealthy welder. Its entirely possible fossilized republicans are thinking in 1970 dollars.
Fast forward to 2019. auto mechanics START at just shy of 22,000 a year and thats assuming you keep track of your time and work for a shop that doesnt engage in the rampant practice of wage theft. master mechanic? depends, maybe $28 an hour in 2019? but nowhere near the $46 an hour a twice convicted tombstone welder made back when the Love Boat sailed.
The problem is not trade, or college, its the seemingly endless wealth gap between people who do work, and people who just seem to collect mansions and yachts.
Fast forward to 2019. auto mechanics START at just shy of 22,000 a year and thats assuming you keep track of your time and work for a shop that doesnt engage in the rampant practice of wage theft. master mechanic? depends, maybe $28 an hour in 2019? but nowhere near the $46 an hour a twice convicted tombstone welder made back when the Love Boat sailed.
The problem is not trade, or college, its the seemingly endless wealth gap between people who do work, and people who just seem to collect mansions and yachts.
You realize that he said the machines were first made in the mid-70s?
If he stopped welding around the time that the Internet was taking off, that would mean that it was $5-7/hour in the early to mid 90s NOT 1970. The "now 20 years later" later in the comment backs this up.
$5-7/hour in the 1990 is $20-30k in 2019 money, which is about what your example mechanic is making.
If he stopped welding around the time that the Internet was taking off, that would mean that it was $5-7/hour in the early to mid 90s NOT 1970. The "now 20 years later" later in the comment backs this up.
$5-7/hour in the 1990 is $20-30k in 2019 money, which is about what your example mechanic is making.
You're right. 1990-92 is "about the time I quit" building vans for quadriplegics to drive and that's what I was referring to in regards to the $5-$7 per hour those companies I sub-contracted from were paying. And that was at most and it was not a "living" wage in Los Angeles back then.
Inflation was rampant in the 70s though. He says mid-70s. $7/hr in 1970 would be $95K today, but $7/hr in 1975 would be like $68K. And that seems comparably the high end of pay given in the article.
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=14000&year1=19...
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=14000&year1=19...
> people who just seem to collect mansions and yachts
You skipped a couple of steps. The full process goes like this:
1. Hire someone to produce something. Pay then $X.
2. Sell the the thing they produced back to them for $Y where Y>X.
3. Pocket $(Y-X)
4. Use some of the proceeds to pay lobbyists to pressure legislators to pass laws that make it illegal for anyone else to enter your market
5. Buy yacht
You skipped a couple of steps. The full process goes like this:
1. Hire someone to produce something. Pay then $X.
2. Sell the the thing they produced back to them for $Y where Y>X.
3. Pocket $(Y-X)
4. Use some of the proceeds to pay lobbyists to pressure legislators to pass laws that make it illegal for anyone else to enter your market
5. Buy yacht
"when the internet started taking off" was the late 90s. Not the mid 70s when he started.
Even if he meant $5-7 (average $6) in 1975, the $95k doesn't work. bls.gov inflation calculator gives $12,000 a year in January 1975 (2000 hrs at $6/hr) as $59k for August 2019.
$12,000 salary in January 1998 is $19,000 today.
Even if he meant $5-7 (average $6) in 1975, the $95k doesn't work. bls.gov inflation calculator gives $12,000 a year in January 1975 (2000 hrs at $6/hr) as $59k for August 2019.
$12,000 salary in January 1998 is $19,000 today.
The last sentence really hits the nail on the head. Just to add to that, during the 2008 recession I saw my portfolio swing pretty wildly going negative one day and positive another but the amount was more than I made that day or maybe even that week. It was then it dawned on me, American capitalism rewards ownership, not labor nor time devoted to a task. Those changes in my net worth would have happened regardless of if I worked or took the day off. Time and labor can get you to ownership but that's not guaranteed nor probable in some fields. I don't want our country to discourage property ownership and accumulation of wealth but the paths leading to that from working hard seems increasingly fewer and narrower.
This comment shouldn’t have been downvoted because it’s completely accurate, and provably so: tax rates for earnings on capital are by and large less than earnings on labor. Warren Buffett has complained for years that he is taxed at a lower rate than his secretary. The system we have rewards trust fund babies, and punishes hard working people.
See also Thomas Piketty's Capital in the Twenty-First Century.
TLDR: RoI (capital) > RoI (labor), with the expected consequences.
TLDR: RoI (capital) > RoI (labor), with the expected consequences.
Plenty of good subsequent research has shown this to be not supported. Go to google scholar and start looking through Econ papers citing Piketty.
Would you give me a link or two to start?
I get that Piketty's work isn't without controversy or criticism. Summers and others have criticized it, but their critiques haven't seemed very strong.
One article [1] (which discusses Piketty's shortcomings) claims the biggest reaction to Piketty is silence:
[1] http://bostonreview.net/class-inequality/marshall-steinbaum-...
edited for a typo
I get that Piketty's work isn't without controversy or criticism. Summers and others have criticized it, but their critiques haven't seemed very strong.
One article [1] (which discusses Piketty's shortcomings) claims the biggest reaction to Piketty is silence:
"But perhaps the greatest rebuke of Piketty to be found among academic economics is not contained in any of these overt or veiled attacks on his scholarship and interpretation, but rather in the deafening silence that greets it, as well as inequality in general, in broad swathes of the field—even to this day."
"The economics elite, it seems, answered by stonewalling Capital in the Twenty-First Century, so it would not have the impact on economics research agendas that it merits."
[1] http://bostonreview.net/class-inequality/marshall-steinbaum-...
edited for a typo
Even if it wasn’t wrong in the past, it can certainly be wrong going forward. With all the governments printing money to cause asset prices to inflate, of course ROI of capital will be > ROI of labor, since price increases for labor will always lag price increases of capital.
Piketty looked at like ~200 years of econ data (wages, asset values, rents) and allowed for inflation and even depreciation.
His thesis is actually that r > g, wherein r = ROI of capital and g = the rate of economic growth (gdp).
This has to be true, because rich people exist and we can measure that they get richer and richer faster than others. You can gauge faith in the likelihood that it will continue to work that way given that funds like Y Combinator exist and are successful, and because activities like buying and maintaining rental properties "works" in terms of creating personal wealth faster than the rate of economic growth.
His thesis is actually that r > g, wherein r = ROI of capital and g = the rate of economic growth (gdp).
This has to be true, because rich people exist and we can measure that they get richer and richer faster than others. You can gauge faith in the likelihood that it will continue to work that way given that funds like Y Combinator exist and are successful, and because activities like buying and maintaining rental properties "works" in terms of creating personal wealth faster than the rate of economic growth.
The research has shown multiple other ways to reach the current results without r>g (housing stock is one method, if I recall) and authors have shown r>g leads to results we do not see.
Thus it’s not true to claim existence of rich people implies r>g. If it were that simple people before Piketty would have reached that conclusion earlier.
The papers linked in this thread show the flaws.
It’s also the case the rich don’t get richer, if you mean a rich person gets richer. For any dataset where you can track rich individuals over time, pick a level you call rich, track everyone meeting that definition, and you find they get poorer, reverting to mean. That is why most millionaires are first gen. It’s why the Forbes 400 is mostly first gen; the rich that were top 400 lose wealth. It’s why St. Louis Fed has papers showing the majority of the top quintile or the top 1% are not there 10 years later, or from generation to generation.
Sure some rich keep wealth. But for any level called rich, if you track all those in it, that group mostly falls out.
Thus it’s not true to claim existence of rich people implies r>g. If it were that simple people before Piketty would have reached that conclusion earlier.
The papers linked in this thread show the flaws.
It’s also the case the rich don’t get richer, if you mean a rich person gets richer. For any dataset where you can track rich individuals over time, pick a level you call rich, track everyone meeting that definition, and you find they get poorer, reverting to mean. That is why most millionaires are first gen. It’s why the Forbes 400 is mostly first gen; the rich that were top 400 lose wealth. It’s why St. Louis Fed has papers showing the majority of the top quintile or the top 1% are not there 10 years later, or from generation to generation.
Sure some rich keep wealth. But for any level called rich, if you track all those in it, that group mostly falls out.
>If it were that simple people before Piketty would have reached that conclusion earlier.
Perhaps you've heard the expression, "The rich get richer while the poor get poorer"
What Piketty did was put extensive data and a pretty rigorous methodology to work to explain why. I've not read a critique that undermines his main conclusions in a meaningful way.
It's no secret that if you already have a pile of money or capital assets you can put those to work for you which will also generate income and you will come out ahead and faster than someone without the same pile of money.
Cf https://boingboing.net/2016/08/23/bill-gates-net-worth-hits-...
Perhaps you've heard the expression, "The rich get richer while the poor get poorer"
What Piketty did was put extensive data and a pretty rigorous methodology to work to explain why. I've not read a critique that undermines his main conclusions in a meaningful way.
It's no secret that if you already have a pile of money or capital assets you can put those to work for you which will also generate income and you will come out ahead and faster than someone without the same pile of money.
Cf https://boingboing.net/2016/08/23/bill-gates-net-worth-hits-...
> price increases for labor will always lag price increases of capital
Let's also keep in mind that that is a policy choice, because it's necessary to dislodge workers off their sticky wages and some sort of mumbo jumbo about the Phillips curve.
Let's also keep in mind that that is a policy choice, because it's necessary to dislodge workers off their sticky wages and some sort of mumbo jumbo about the Phillips curve.
I don't really understand what was special about Picketty, though, so I can understand the silence. It's been recognized for a very long time, amongst certain economists, that capitalism rewards capitalists - that is, those who own things. Mainstream economics is mainstream because it ignores these economists. It doesn't matter how you come to this conclusion, no economics department is going to give it the time of day - and those that do can expect to become targeted by politicians, as hotbeds of 'left wing academic bias'. Which is a very good way to shrink your department.
So amongst those that are not professionally immune to this kind of argument, Picketty get's a, 'well, duh'. Amongst the rest (mainstream economists) it gets a resounding silence. It isn't really relevant to the field, because the field is constituted by a kind of professional avoidance of politically charged topics.
So amongst those that are not professionally immune to this kind of argument, Picketty get's a, 'well, duh'. Amongst the rest (mainstream economists) it gets a resounding silence. It isn't really relevant to the field, because the field is constituted by a kind of professional avoidance of politically charged topics.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2543012
> We find evidence of pervasive errors of historical fact, opaque methodological choices, and the cherry-picking of sources to construct favorable patterns from ambiguous data.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/social-science-histo...
> I conclude that Piketty’s data for the wealth share of the top 10 percent for the period 1870 to 1970 are unreliable. The values he reported are manufactured from the observations for the top 1 percent inflated by a constant 36 percentage points. Piketty’s data for the top 1 percent of the distribution for the nineteenth century (1810–1910) are also unreliable.
http://voxeu.org/article/piketty-s-housing-capital-results-n...
> A key observation in Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the Twenty-First Century (Piketty 2014) is that the share of aggregate income accruing to capital in the US has been rising steadily in recent decades. The growing disparity between the income going to wage earners and capital owners has led to calls for government intervention. But for such interventions to be effective, it is important to ask who the capital owners are.
> Recent research has shown that the long-run rise in the net capital income share is mainly due to the housing sector (e.g. Rognlie 2015, Torrini 2016 – see Figure 1). This phenomenon is not specific to the US but has been evident in almost every advanced economy. This suggests that it is not entrepreneurs and venture capitalists that are taking an increasing share of the economy, but land owners.
https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/99455/...
> The results from at least four studies were compared for three measures of income change: change in median incomes, share of growth captured by the top 10 percent, and the changing income share of the top 1 percent. In all cases, Piketty and Saez (2003) were the outlier, showing the most increased inequality. And in all three measures of income change , Piketty, Saez, and Zucman (2018) found much less growth in income inequality than Piketty and Saez (2003).
> We find evidence of pervasive errors of historical fact, opaque methodological choices, and the cherry-picking of sources to construct favorable patterns from ambiguous data.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/social-science-histo...
> I conclude that Piketty’s data for the wealth share of the top 10 percent for the period 1870 to 1970 are unreliable. The values he reported are manufactured from the observations for the top 1 percent inflated by a constant 36 percentage points. Piketty’s data for the top 1 percent of the distribution for the nineteenth century (1810–1910) are also unreliable.
http://voxeu.org/article/piketty-s-housing-capital-results-n...
> A key observation in Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the Twenty-First Century (Piketty 2014) is that the share of aggregate income accruing to capital in the US has been rising steadily in recent decades. The growing disparity between the income going to wage earners and capital owners has led to calls for government intervention. But for such interventions to be effective, it is important to ask who the capital owners are.
> Recent research has shown that the long-run rise in the net capital income share is mainly due to the housing sector (e.g. Rognlie 2015, Torrini 2016 – see Figure 1). This phenomenon is not specific to the US but has been evident in almost every advanced economy. This suggests that it is not entrepreneurs and venture capitalists that are taking an increasing share of the economy, but land owners.
https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/99455/...
> The results from at least four studies were compared for three measures of income change: change in median incomes, share of growth captured by the top 10 percent, and the changing income share of the top 1 percent. In all cases, Piketty and Saez (2003) were the outlier, showing the most increased inequality. And in all three measures of income change , Piketty, Saez, and Zucman (2018) found much less growth in income inequality than Piketty and Saez (2003).
The counter-argument is that Piketty's models and data are at least as credible as the standard models and data used in policy econ.
For example Magness & Murphy prefer the UK's Office of National Statistics to Piketty's figures - because it's supposed to generate gold-standard objective economic data.
In reality the ONS produces the UK's unemployment figures by considering anyone who works one hour a week as employed. Similarly anyone who labels themselves self-employed for tax purposes is considered "employed" even if they do no work at all.
It says this clearly on the ONS site.
It's quite strange to accuse Piketty of cherry-picking and distortion when these egregious - even comically obvious - distortions pass for official economic "fact" at the national level.
For example Magness & Murphy prefer the UK's Office of National Statistics to Piketty's figures - because it's supposed to generate gold-standard objective economic data.
In reality the ONS produces the UK's unemployment figures by considering anyone who works one hour a week as employed. Similarly anyone who labels themselves self-employed for tax purposes is considered "employed" even if they do no work at all.
It says this clearly on the ONS site.
It's quite strange to accuse Piketty of cherry-picking and distortion when these egregious - even comically obvious - distortions pass for official economic "fact" at the national level.
Thanks for these. Got a couple of interesting evenings' reading ahead.
An alternative view is that it rewards investment in the economy.
Work is an investment the economy.
Hell, raising kids and taking care of disabled/elderly people is an investment in the economy too. Those folks and their caretakers are consumers just as much as you and me.
Why does there need to be a privileged reward to invest? Everyone and their dog knows if you keep your money stuffed in your mattress it’ll lose value over time from inflation, and who doesn’t want to have a nest egg to retire on? Nobody needs an additional incentive to invest their capital beyond the bare bones basics of personal finance.
Hell, raising kids and taking care of disabled/elderly people is an investment in the economy too. Those folks and their caretakers are consumers just as much as you and me.
Why does there need to be a privileged reward to invest? Everyone and their dog knows if you keep your money stuffed in your mattress it’ll lose value over time from inflation, and who doesn’t want to have a nest egg to retire on? Nobody needs an additional incentive to invest their capital beyond the bare bones basics of personal finance.
> American capitalism rewards ownership, not labor nor time devoted to a task.
It's in the name, after all. One performs labor to (ideally) incrementally increase ownership. The concept thrives in the public mind as go-pay-off-a-house but (ideally) would also stick as go-buy-some-equities too.
It's in the name, after all. One performs labor to (ideally) incrementally increase ownership. The concept thrives in the public mind as go-pay-off-a-house but (ideally) would also stick as go-buy-some-equities too.
One performs labor to enrich the bourgeoisie. The only way anyone was able to “work hard” to increase any kind of ownership was through supportive government after WWII. It’s no coincidence that the middle class is shrinking and wealth is being accumulated in fewer and fewer hands.
Indeed, capitalism rewards those who own the means of production at the expense of the people who labor to support it. A lot has been written about this.
aka, capitalism
> You realize $7 an hour is $95,000 a year in 2019 cash?
That's assuming you get 40 hours a week of work.
That's assuming you get 40 hours a week of work.
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I'd argue that people who read 4 or 5 books on programming don't know much about anything either when they first start out.
In fact, I'd argue that a graduate knows much more than most people think. The problem is that it's usually general knowledge that doesn't apply to some specific framework that 90% of developers use. It's all abstracted away to learning X framework.
In fact, I'd argue that a graduate knows much more than most people think. The problem is that it's usually general knowledge that doesn't apply to some specific framework that 90% of developers use. It's all abstracted away to learning X framework.
The plight of the typical grad isn't just that they have overly general knowledge for any one task, but that they have just emerged from a system that filtered their thoughts for possibly several decades into completing assignments and taking tests for a grade.
And once you get into industry you have to unlearn that because the clear objective goals and grades disappear, and you are left with an array of subtle values and more pernicuous consequences to any action. And that stuff is absolutely vital to being good at intellectual jobs - it's mostly crushed out by the system, fostering the "narrow STEMlord" mindset that is constantly surprised by things blowing up when they followed the book exactly.
And once you get into industry you have to unlearn that because the clear objective goals and grades disappear, and you are left with an array of subtle values and more pernicuous consequences to any action. And that stuff is absolutely vital to being good at intellectual jobs - it's mostly crushed out by the system, fostering the "narrow STEMlord" mindset that is constantly surprised by things blowing up when they followed the book exactly.
> once you get into industry you have to unlearn that because the clear objective goals and grades disappear, and you are left with an array of subtle values and more pernicuous consequences to any action
Which is one reason I continue to think that a broad education, including humanities and social sciences, is valuable even for folks looking to work in STEM fields. It's in those academic disciplines that you learn to work with subtle nuances, and how to originate and defend an opinion or point of view.
Which is one reason I continue to think that a broad education, including humanities and social sciences, is valuable even for folks looking to work in STEM fields. It's in those academic disciplines that you learn to work with subtle nuances, and how to originate and defend an opinion or point of view.
What? Clear goals disappear?
Why? Here's the repo, clone it, set up the dev env, maybe connect to VPN to reach some test instances, here's the issue tracker, here's a ticket, explore it, see if it's reproducible, if yes, get to the root cause, solve it, get it reviewed, goto 10.
Naturally, this should lead to a lot of questions, but which part is not a clear step with clear goals? Plus in industry the employer has vested interest to make you efficient, because it pays you. It'll check up on you daily. (Or initially/constantly you will do pair programming, get mentoring, sprint retros, etc.)
And if you are stuck you can ask questions and there are usually domain experts right next to you.
Why? Here's the repo, clone it, set up the dev env, maybe connect to VPN to reach some test instances, here's the issue tracker, here's a ticket, explore it, see if it's reproducible, if yes, get to the root cause, solve it, get it reviewed, goto 10.
Naturally, this should lead to a lot of questions, but which part is not a clear step with clear goals? Plus in industry the employer has vested interest to make you efficient, because it pays you. It'll check up on you daily. (Or initially/constantly you will do pair programming, get mentoring, sprint retros, etc.)
And if you are stuck you can ask questions and there are usually domain experts right next to you.
This was a real problem at my last employer, new grads couldn’t really tell the difference between coursework and actual work. And if it wasn’t up to standard thought they could plead with “the professor” (their boss) for a better “grade”.
I was never this person and still struggled when I initially got into industry and still do.
Part of it is because most businesses are run by people that have no knowledge of the timescale of their projects and therefore try to squeeze as much work as possible in ridiculous time frames and society trains you to stop "whining" and get it done.
The lack of empathy in industry is enormous due to profit motive. And because of the ambiguous nature of software, it's always difficult to know exactly what needs to be done. And because most people want to please their bosses, the incentive to estimate low and push yourself to get a project done is very real.
Part of it is because most businesses are run by people that have no knowledge of the timescale of their projects and therefore try to squeeze as much work as possible in ridiculous time frames and society trains you to stop "whining" and get it done.
The lack of empathy in industry is enormous due to profit motive. And because of the ambiguous nature of software, it's always difficult to know exactly what needs to be done. And because most people want to please their bosses, the incentive to estimate low and push yourself to get a project done is very real.
> I'd argue that people who read 4 or 5 books on programming don't know much about anything either when they first start out.
I would say that's a function of a lot of complex items, including their prior educational experience, general intelligence, and just how closely they read the book. There exist many books I've "read" once and mostly forgotten, and precious few I've read a half-dozen or more times and know intimately.
If the former, I agree with you. If the latter, not so much.
> In fact, I'd argue that a graduate knows much more than most people think.
In my experience there are two kinds of graduates, those who spent years memorizing material to get a piece of paper, and those who learned how to learn and applied it to get their piece of paper.
When folks talk about shit graduates they have the former in mind, when folks extol the virtues of a university education they are thinking of the latter.
Unfortunately universities spit out both and it's very hard to distinguish on-the-fly.
I would say that's a function of a lot of complex items, including their prior educational experience, general intelligence, and just how closely they read the book. There exist many books I've "read" once and mostly forgotten, and precious few I've read a half-dozen or more times and know intimately.
If the former, I agree with you. If the latter, not so much.
> In fact, I'd argue that a graduate knows much more than most people think.
In my experience there are two kinds of graduates, those who spent years memorizing material to get a piece of paper, and those who learned how to learn and applied it to get their piece of paper.
When folks talk about shit graduates they have the former in mind, when folks extol the virtues of a university education they are thinking of the latter.
Unfortunately universities spit out both and it's very hard to distinguish on-the-fly.
HN regularly has posts where people justify cheating their way through college. I can't help but think these are the ones who do poorly at their jobs, and then the "years memorizing material to get a piece of paper" gets blamed.
Or people generally don't distinguish between good graduates and bad ones. In most discussion, the distinction boils down to "college graduates suck and don't know anything" to paraphrase.
While granted there's obviously people who don't take college seriously, many do. And unfortunately, I'm one of those people that worked very hard to get through college and didn't attend hardly any social functions. Same as high school. I would spend weekends from 8am to 6pm reading textbooks and doing assignments.
However, I often feel that doing this was somewhat of a detriment to both my ability to socialize and my ability to really solve problems organically.
While granted there's obviously people who don't take college seriously, many do. And unfortunately, I'm one of those people that worked very hard to get through college and didn't attend hardly any social functions. Same as high school. I would spend weekends from 8am to 6pm reading textbooks and doing assignments.
However, I often feel that doing this was somewhat of a detriment to both my ability to socialize and my ability to really solve problems organically.
I think the "learning to learn" thing is a myth propagated by people raking in tons of money. I'm sure it happens, but I personally did not meet a single person who "learned to learn" while in college beyond some very basic studying techniques that could be picked up from watching a couple of Youtube videos.
Hm, at least college exams required some serious effort. And learning that comes handy when you are faced with big challenges at work. (Eg to design, understand, debug a big complex system.) What they don't teach is team/project work.
Though if there were more emphasis on hard math/CS/programming/ITsec problem solving, that'd probably translate well to industry setting.
Though if there were more emphasis on hard math/CS/programming/ITsec problem solving, that'd probably translate well to industry setting.
No one knows a lot when they first start out. However, there's a lot of value in learning new skills by doing. It's the main skill programmers need to succeed in their jobs. No one becomes a great programmer by taking a new college class for each new API.
Sure, and that's pretty much what this guy was saying. How much does theory help you properly weld? Same way learning when to use bubblesort vs. quicksort helps me figure out why my css is working in firefox but not ie11.
> How much does theory help you properly weld?
A ton.
The metallurgy of welding is complex. When performing a bespoke weld, you have to know what type of filler metal to use (it frequently is not identical to the pieces being welded...), heat pre-treatment, heat post-treatment, and range of available current for the job. All of those factors vary with the job. While the reference texts can help you, you have to at least know enough to figure out where to look. Then you need to have enough practice to to recognize when things go wrong, and how to correct it.
Much as in the current programming industry, the problem is people coming out with an education on paper, yet not actually knowing either the theory or practice the of welding.
A ton.
The metallurgy of welding is complex. When performing a bespoke weld, you have to know what type of filler metal to use (it frequently is not identical to the pieces being welded...), heat pre-treatment, heat post-treatment, and range of available current for the job. All of those factors vary with the job. While the reference texts can help you, you have to at least know enough to figure out where to look. Then you need to have enough practice to to recognize when things go wrong, and how to correct it.
Much as in the current programming industry, the problem is people coming out with an education on paper, yet not actually knowing either the theory or practice the of welding.
Knowing how to judge the complexity of an algorithm (which is what learning about different sorts helped teach me) is useful to me in developing software on a regular basis. That includes javascript sometimes.
I dunno, a guy who read all of TAOCP and did all the exercises is probably a better programmer than you would ever be (me too probably).
I'd hire pretty much anyone who actually did most of the exercises in How to Design Programs + Types and Programming Languages.
Welder here. I live in Australia.
Well, not just welding: we're considered engineering tradespeople - that's what it says on my trade certificate.
Earned over $100k last financial year, doing 50+ hour weeks, so plenty of over time, we certainly work for it.
If you're in the right workshop, or doing the right site work, we're getting paid reasonably well. If you can buy a house away from the major centres, maybe one that needs a bit of a refresh, and don't need a brand new car every few years, we can live quite comfortably.
Well, not just welding: we're considered engineering tradespeople - that's what it says on my trade certificate.
Earned over $100k last financial year, doing 50+ hour weeks, so plenty of over time, we certainly work for it.
If you're in the right workshop, or doing the right site work, we're getting paid reasonably well. If you can buy a house away from the major centres, maybe one that needs a bit of a refresh, and don't need a brand new car every few years, we can live quite comfortably.
In WA to get a license to weld you have to pass a 4G or 5G test. You can't really pass those without a penetrating weld as the lack of penetration will be very obvious when they slice and fold the cupon. I could see that people who can pass the test would not know how to weld in many positions or on many automotive type materials/parts, but they should at least know how to get a penetrating weld.
Good for you!
One of my first job’s after hishschool was Aluminum TIG and MIG welding. I learned to weld throughout highschool and was hired because of the reputation my school had for teaching welding.
Unfortunately, I think most of the trade skills are no longer taught at that school.
My welding career was only for a couple years, but during that time I focused on improving my TIG skillsets and was able to move into the number two postion at a high end shop that manufactured Aluminum wakeboard and fishing towers (Samson Sports).
The welding quality was superb, and every inch was looked over for visual and structual perfection. Needless to say, the pay still wasn’t that great.
One of my first job’s after hishschool was Aluminum TIG and MIG welding. I learned to weld throughout highschool and was hired because of the reputation my school had for teaching welding.
Unfortunately, I think most of the trade skills are no longer taught at that school.
My welding career was only for a couple years, but during that time I focused on improving my TIG skillsets and was able to move into the number two postion at a high end shop that manufactured Aluminum wakeboard and fishing towers (Samson Sports).
The welding quality was superb, and every inch was looked over for visual and structual perfection. Needless to say, the pay still wasn’t that great.
I used to watch a lot of https://www.youtube.com/user/weldingtipsandtricks for fun and the impression I got from this guy was that welding school and certification tests are hard and require verification of exactly the kind of good welds you describe.
How can you go to school for welding and still suck at basic MIG techniques? Is it all theory with no practical?
I learned MIG basics in an afternoon. So far none of my welds have cracked. I'd expect much better welding from people coming out of school than what I can do.
I learned MIG basics in an afternoon. So far none of my welds have cracked. I'd expect much better welding from people coming out of school than what I can do.
The only difference may be that you care.
How have you stressed or tested your welds?
Yes. All of them are in active use and subjected to hundreds or thousands of pounds of force.
Considering my lack of experience I suspect over time I'll find at least one weak joint. That said it's really not hard to tell if you get penetration, especially if you grind them.
Considering my lack of experience I suspect over time I'll find at least one weak joint. That said it's really not hard to tell if you get penetration, especially if you grind them.
First, to quote the Drive By Truckers:
"If you want to feel old after 42 years, keep dropping the hammer and grinding the gears"
My dad did blue collar labor his whole life and his body hurt. He would take something like 6 ibuprofen every morning with breakfast. To do that kind of work requires you putting your family above yourself, which is a noble thing. I think what people miss in the old "you could support a family doing this" was that it was very much you actively harming yourself so that your family could be better off.
It's the same thing with coal miners. They get all sorts of terrible health consequences from the work, but it is a noble sacrifice to them.
My dad was adamant that we were going to college and living a more comfortable life than he did. So here I am, a software engineer with plenty of worries in the world, but at least a job that won't leave me broken and in pain after I do it for twenty years.
I didn't read this article word for word, but it seemed to have a bit of an agenda to it. The number one determining factor of how far you will make it if you're working class is how driven you are. If you are lazy, you'll struggle your whole life. There isn't any family safety net to keep you ignorant of that.
It's important to give people access to opportunity, but it's up to the individual to be self-motivated enough to take it. Education isn't some magical panacea.
"If you want to feel old after 42 years, keep dropping the hammer and grinding the gears"
My dad did blue collar labor his whole life and his body hurt. He would take something like 6 ibuprofen every morning with breakfast. To do that kind of work requires you putting your family above yourself, which is a noble thing. I think what people miss in the old "you could support a family doing this" was that it was very much you actively harming yourself so that your family could be better off.
It's the same thing with coal miners. They get all sorts of terrible health consequences from the work, but it is a noble sacrifice to them.
My dad was adamant that we were going to college and living a more comfortable life than he did. So here I am, a software engineer with plenty of worries in the world, but at least a job that won't leave me broken and in pain after I do it for twenty years.
I didn't read this article word for word, but it seemed to have a bit of an agenda to it. The number one determining factor of how far you will make it if you're working class is how driven you are. If you are lazy, you'll struggle your whole life. There isn't any family safety net to keep you ignorant of that.
It's important to give people access to opportunity, but it's up to the individual to be self-motivated enough to take it. Education isn't some magical panacea.
> The number one determining factor of how far you will make it if you're working class is how driven you are.
In my experience it's much more about how you manage the money you make, i.e.:
1. live below your means
2. invest the difference - put your money to work for you
For example, in the last week there was a bank that accidentally deposited $120,000 in the account of a couple. The couple immediately went on a spending spree, buying all kinds of very expensive items. By the time the police got involved, the money was gone.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2019/09/08/bank-acc...
Criminality aside, the "gee I have some extra money, let's go shopping!" is how one remains poor for life.
In my experience it's much more about how you manage the money you make, i.e.:
1. live below your means
2. invest the difference - put your money to work for you
For example, in the last week there was a bank that accidentally deposited $120,000 in the account of a couple. The couple immediately went on a spending spree, buying all kinds of very expensive items. By the time the police got involved, the money was gone.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2019/09/08/bank-acc...
Criminality aside, the "gee I have some extra money, let's go shopping!" is how one remains poor for life.
This is underrated.
Not to mention people are encouraged to do zero planning for the student debts and get pressured by family to buy new cars.
There’s so much of wealth that comes down to lifestyle and educating people on personal finance which would go way farther than just telling people to get a $100k degree and ‘study hard (for rote testing)’. Here in Canada where I live the debt levels are still insane and didn’t decline like the US did, even without the healthcare bills excuse.
Politicians love blaming external factors and rich people/big corporations for all our upward mobility issues, which obviously play a roles but it’s hardly the full story, I’m curious how far we could improve things through culture and how we teach our kids to spend money. This was a personal finance culture that was far more popular in the west in the recent past eras which we people constantly romanticize about and point to different single things to explain it all away (ie unions).
My girlfriend is amazing with money and saves everything, both her parents do the same, which is the opposite of me in my early 20s before I read into it and my parents growing up too. I’m convinced parenting combined with culture (she’s Han Chinese and they tend to be thrifty similar Scottish people and Jugaad in India[1], among others) has a significant impact on these trajectories.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugaad
Not to mention people are encouraged to do zero planning for the student debts and get pressured by family to buy new cars.
There’s so much of wealth that comes down to lifestyle and educating people on personal finance which would go way farther than just telling people to get a $100k degree and ‘study hard (for rote testing)’. Here in Canada where I live the debt levels are still insane and didn’t decline like the US did, even without the healthcare bills excuse.
Politicians love blaming external factors and rich people/big corporations for all our upward mobility issues, which obviously play a roles but it’s hardly the full story, I’m curious how far we could improve things through culture and how we teach our kids to spend money. This was a personal finance culture that was far more popular in the west in the recent past eras which we people constantly romanticize about and point to different single things to explain it all away (ie unions).
My girlfriend is amazing with money and saves everything, both her parents do the same, which is the opposite of me in my early 20s before I read into it and my parents growing up too. I’m convinced parenting combined with culture (she’s Han Chinese and they tend to be thrifty similar Scottish people and Jugaad in India[1], among others) has a significant impact on these trajectories.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugaad
"thrifty/crafty like Scottish people"
This stereotype hasn't been true for at least a generation.
It could be "Scots have lowest debt in the UK": https://www.pwc.co.uk/who-we-are/regional-sites/scotland/pre...
I've inherited not spending money from my (not Scottish) parents. It's taken an effort to spend money in social situations, so I'm not seen as miserly.
I've inherited not spending money from my (not Scottish) parents. It's taken an effort to spend money in social situations, so I'm not seen as miserly.
Really driven working class people get out of the working class (basically by definition), don't they?
They either start their own company/contracting, become highly specialized professionals, or get a degree and take some boring white collar job that pays better.
Managing finances is just a gimmick when you have zero disposable income. That's basically 24/7/365 crisis management.
Sure, if you manage to get some savings/credit-score together it's very important what you spend it on. (Eg classes/moving or finally doing that trip to Vegas you always dreamed about.) But if you can't increase your income significantly, then investing or spending it makes no difference. (Because investing it is just continuing the saving, for whatever purpose, let's say to have a rainy day fund, or medical emergency fund, amd spending it just decreases the years you spent saving up, but your overall lifetime income will not change much, thus your range of possibilities won't either.)
They either start their own company/contracting, become highly specialized professionals, or get a degree and take some boring white collar job that pays better.
Managing finances is just a gimmick when you have zero disposable income. That's basically 24/7/365 crisis management.
Sure, if you manage to get some savings/credit-score together it's very important what you spend it on. (Eg classes/moving or finally doing that trip to Vegas you always dreamed about.) But if you can't increase your income significantly, then investing or spending it makes no difference. (Because investing it is just continuing the saving, for whatever purpose, let's say to have a rainy day fund, or medical emergency fund, amd spending it just decreases the years you spent saving up, but your overall lifetime income will not change much, thus your range of possibilities won't either.)
I feel this strongly.
I've been a software contractor for the last ~18 months. I do it because it affords me the ability to spend my time exactly how I want to, mostly reading and researching. But I also have reduced my contracting time as much as possible and this year my income will have been ~30k.
I've gotten to the end of my rope, and it's stressful and weighs on me 24/7, especially with my fear of an upcoming recession.
I decided to find a job again and in just a month I've been able to get multiple offers lined up for 5x my current income.
On the one hand, I use my position to its fullest--and I've spent the better part of a year learning things I never would have learned in a University or employment setting.
On the other hand, I recognize that this is an incredibly privileged position, one which I don't feel very deserving of. I understand the market forces, yes, but I can't help but feel a tinge of guilt knowing that I can be somewhat irresponsible financially just to pull myself out within two months of a new paycheck.
I've been a software contractor for the last ~18 months. I do it because it affords me the ability to spend my time exactly how I want to, mostly reading and researching. But I also have reduced my contracting time as much as possible and this year my income will have been ~30k.
I've gotten to the end of my rope, and it's stressful and weighs on me 24/7, especially with my fear of an upcoming recession.
I decided to find a job again and in just a month I've been able to get multiple offers lined up for 5x my current income.
On the one hand, I use my position to its fullest--and I've spent the better part of a year learning things I never would have learned in a University or employment setting.
On the other hand, I recognize that this is an incredibly privileged position, one which I don't feel very deserving of. I understand the market forces, yes, but I can't help but feel a tinge of guilt knowing that I can be somewhat irresponsible financially just to pull myself out within two months of a new paycheck.
Yea probably true. Didn't really expect my post to get the attention it has. Probably could have worded it better.
My parents were careful with money, but not necessarily frugal. I think part of it was the fact that my mom (and probably my dad at least at one point) had a pension to look forward to. I've thought before a lot on how that probably changes the calculus quite a bit.
I seem to have picked up some pathological fear of not having enough, so I probably live excessively below my means.
Growing up, I didn't even know that normal people could invest money in the stock market. Even now, I have friends that look at me sort of funny when I mention having a significant amount of money in the market. Usually they ask why I don't do something useful to it like buy a nicer house, car, etc.
My parents were careful with money, but not necessarily frugal. I think part of it was the fact that my mom (and probably my dad at least at one point) had a pension to look forward to. I've thought before a lot on how that probably changes the calculus quite a bit.
I seem to have picked up some pathological fear of not having enough, so I probably live excessively below my means.
Growing up, I didn't even know that normal people could invest money in the stock market. Even now, I have friends that look at me sort of funny when I mention having a significant amount of money in the market. Usually they ask why I don't do something useful to it like buy a nicer house, car, etc.
Definitely a good point.
If you're highly driven to achieve the goal of spending-consuming, that's unlikely to get you anywhere particularly interesting.
If you're highly driven to achieve the goal of spending-consuming, that's unlikely to get you anywhere particularly interesting.
I think it depends just how grueling the physical work is.
My dad is 71 years old (I'm 28) and has been doing autobody repair work for 55 years (still working to this day). He has mild arthritis, but he's in remarkably good shape.
On the other hand, I'm starting to develop a gut after 7 years of full-time programming. I genuinely believe that if I were to keep up my current lifestyle, I'd be in for a bad time by the time I hit 50.
Ideally, I should be doing more physical exercise, but the difference is that it's a choice that I have to make whereas it's not a choice for my dad, and it's hard for me to find motivation to go to the gym.
So, in terms of health, I suspect that:
Desk job + gym > Physical labor job > Desk job with no physical activity
My dad is 71 years old (I'm 28) and has been doing autobody repair work for 55 years (still working to this day). He has mild arthritis, but he's in remarkably good shape.
On the other hand, I'm starting to develop a gut after 7 years of full-time programming. I genuinely believe that if I were to keep up my current lifestyle, I'd be in for a bad time by the time I hit 50.
Ideally, I should be doing more physical exercise, but the difference is that it's a choice that I have to make whereas it's not a choice for my dad, and it's hard for me to find motivation to go to the gym.
So, in terms of health, I suspect that:
Desk job + gym > Physical labor job > Desk job with no physical activity
> I genuinely believe that if I were to keep up my current lifestyle, I'd be in for a bad time by the time I hit 50.
That's mostly diet. With a better diet and 20 minutes of working out a day, you could make yourself healthy. Hell, run just a mile a day, and do pushups, pullups, and planks every other day. It's amazing how short workouts done consistently can actually keep you fit.
That's mostly diet. With a better diet and 20 minutes of working out a day, you could make yourself healthy. Hell, run just a mile a day, and do pushups, pullups, and planks every other day. It's amazing how short workouts done consistently can actually keep you fit.
I work in metal fabrication and my I'm lithe.
I don't have any trouble at all keeping my weight under control, but in order to stay strong and flexible I still need to work at it constantly.
To that end, I have a weight bench, barbell and dumbbells in my lounge room, and a pull up bar hung between two door ways in the hall.
I find 'working out' tedious, incredibly boring. But I'll walk by the pull up bar and do 10 pull ups multiple times a day, or grab a couple dumbbells and do a few sets here and there.
I don't have any trouble at all keeping my weight under control, but in order to stay strong and flexible I still need to work at it constantly.
To that end, I have a weight bench, barbell and dumbbells in my lounge room, and a pull up bar hung between two door ways in the hall.
I find 'working out' tedious, incredibly boring. But I'll walk by the pull up bar and do 10 pull ups multiple times a day, or grab a couple dumbbells and do a few sets here and there.
I do wish you'd said
> I work in metal fabrication and my I'm lathe.
> I work in metal fabrication and my I'm lathe.
That’d put a different spin on things
The difference is the work is actually hurting your dad (arthritis) and your choice of sedation is doing it to you. The past few offices I’ve worked in all had gyms. Healthy food options are a must for office jobs.
I’m saying this as a office worker who’s lost 15 pounds by diet change small walks. Looking to add some days at the gym soon.
I’m saying this as a office worker who’s lost 15 pounds by diet change small walks. Looking to add some days at the gym soon.
Autobody work probably doesn't cause the same repetitive stress injuries that working on an assembly line does.
I have an uncle who is a plumber of a similar age and is in pretty great shape for his age. My understanding is that most of his aches and pains are related to a car accident he was in when he was young and reckless.
I have an uncle who is a plumber of a similar age and is in pretty great shape for his age. My understanding is that most of his aches and pains are related to a car accident he was in when he was young and reckless.
Most of the metal fabricators I know are incredibly unfit.
I've worked in metal fabrication on and off for over 20 years, and my observation is that's a cultural thing combined with long running fatigue from working too many hours standing up. That and metal fabricators aren't known for their diet being particularly great.
I'm fairly active, both mentally and physically, never really drank much, and never smoked cigarettes. I could kick most of the guys I work with in the head, whereas most of them wouldn't be able to lift a foot above their hips. People usually guess my age between 6 and 10 years below my actual age.
Metal fabrication doesn't have to be hard on the body.
I entirely agree with you that the number one determining factor of how far you'll get in life--and by that I mean how well you'll do setting and achieving your own goals--is how driven you are.
And highly driven people tend not to hang around the workshop floor for very long, so the workshop floor tends to suffer a driven-person-drain by attrition as the highly driven people drive off to greener pastures.
I've worked in metal fabrication on and off for over 20 years, and my observation is that's a cultural thing combined with long running fatigue from working too many hours standing up. That and metal fabricators aren't known for their diet being particularly great.
I'm fairly active, both mentally and physically, never really drank much, and never smoked cigarettes. I could kick most of the guys I work with in the head, whereas most of them wouldn't be able to lift a foot above their hips. People usually guess my age between 6 and 10 years below my actual age.
Metal fabrication doesn't have to be hard on the body.
I entirely agree with you that the number one determining factor of how far you'll get in life--and by that I mean how well you'll do setting and achieving your own goals--is how driven you are.
And highly driven people tend not to hang around the workshop floor for very long, so the workshop floor tends to suffer a driven-person-drain by attrition as the highly driven people drive off to greener pastures.
No joke. A construction career of 12 years was enough for me. Even with automation/labor saving tools its backbreaking. Three aspirin the morning and another three in the afternoon. Your alarm goes off before dawn and it starts to seem like groundhog day
what's your story? Did you learn to code and now you're in bay area?
> at least a job that won't leave me broken and in pain after I do it for twenty years.
There are no guarantees. There's ample opportunity in this field for atrophy or strain to take its toll. Take care of yourself, pay attention to the complaints and do something about them.
There are no guarantees. There's ample opportunity in this field for atrophy or strain to take its toll. Take care of yourself, pay attention to the complaints and do something about them.
The ability to do something about it is the key difference.
To quote Neal Stephenson: "Software development, like professional sports, has a way of making thirty-year-old men feel decrepit."
On a meta-level, maybe part of being educated, is being educated about the various possibilities and opportunities you might have if you pursued certain career paths. Its fuzzy whether you can get to that stage without a well rounded formal education.
Bad ergonomics can destroy you body. Sitting all day doesn't guarantee that you won't be a broken physically.
Don't know why you were downvoted. A sedentary lifestyle is a health risk, and all engineers should 100% learn ergonomics (balance your body, don't force it to keep position)
I expect there are jobs that are "medium duty" that are actually health-enhancing. Somewhere between back-breaking labor and sedentary engineer.
Maybe being a mail carrier and walking most of the day.
I expect there are jobs that are "medium duty" that are actually health-enhancing. Somewhere between back-breaking labor and sedentary engineer.
Maybe being a mail carrier and walking most of the day.
A friend says the healthiest he ever was, was delivering mail during his PhD.
- Wake up early -- not too many chances for late-night drinking then feeling bad about it.
- Walk a long way, whatever the weather. The post office supplied excellent waterproofs (this is Denmark).
- Walk up so many stairs. Many apartment buildings have the letter boxes in each apartment's door.
- Occasionally run away from a dog.
- Wake up early -- not too many chances for late-night drinking then feeling bad about it.
- Walk a long way, whatever the weather. The post office supplied excellent waterproofs (this is Denmark).
- Walk up so many stairs. Many apartment buildings have the letter boxes in each apartment's door.
- Occasionally run away from a dog.
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I work at a company that does heavy manufacturing. They're begging for welders. They only accept something like 30% of applicants, I hear drugs is a big problem with applicants. They thing is that you don't even need to know how to weld, they'll train you. They put you through their training program and eventually you'll be welding for them. And the type of welding they do isn't small scale thing but really heavy duty thick sheets of steel. And here's the kicker, their pay is terrible. Which is why they're constantly begging for more people to train.They totally know that they're basically the guys that train all the welders in the area. People come in to learn the ropes then about 2 years later or so they get a job down the street making a lot more. I'm not a business guy but I guess it works for the company because they've been going for a very long time and still growing. I guess it's cheaper for them to constantly be training than it is to retain their welders.
If you can deal with the variance, training people is a very good way to get cheap talent. I have no idea why it isn't very common.
> training people is a very good way to get cheap talent
It's also exactly how the master-apprentice system works. It's a good system, is fair, and works. It's also vastly superior than the system where you pay to be trained by someone who is not a working master and end up learning substandard or obsolete methods.
It's also exactly how the master-apprentice system works. It's a good system, is fair, and works. It's also vastly superior than the system where you pay to be trained by someone who is not a working master and end up learning substandard or obsolete methods.
I think the business case for it depends on training time, training costs, the odds of a person being useful after training, and how expensive it is to get someone already trained.
Training a batch of people for six months who will mostly be useful after completion and are mostly likely to complete training might be a good proposition. If training time is four years, 50% of entrants complete training, and 50% of those trained are useful... the case might be weaker.
Training a batch of people for six months who will mostly be useful after completion and are mostly likely to complete training might be a good proposition. If training time is four years, 50% of entrants complete training, and 50% of those trained are useful... the case might be weaker.
I believe the biggest issue is people leaving.
Invest x months of training at y cost.
Then the person leaves right after training for a higher-paying job.
That dis-incentivizes training.
Invest x months of training at y cost.
Then the person leaves right after training for a higher-paying job.
That dis-incentivizes training.
Or, increase psychological incentives by saying "raises for people who make it a year" or "signing on bonuses only for people who make it six months."
Those help a lot.
Those help a lot.
It also incentivizes paying more.
Many industries are competitive, there is a limited pool of people to hire. If you pay a little more you get lower turnover, and you end up with more experienced and more skilled employees than your competition.
How would the trained guy be cheap talent? Now he's trained and on the market as a trained worker. Are you going to ask him to pay you back for training if he quits?
in a proper master/apprentice system quitting early is like aborting your training, that is, you don't get a certificate for incomplete training. for a short training like welding, i don't know, but if it comes with a certificate i suppose you could withhold it if they leave early.
in IT this is a real problem. it takes about half a year to make someone productive. it takes another half year or so before i start getting a return on my investment. if they leave then, i am barely breaking even. if they leave earlier, i am making a loss. a friend of mine tried this business and couldn't make it work financially.
in IT this is a real problem. it takes about half a year to make someone productive. it takes another half year or so before i start getting a return on my investment. if they leave then, i am barely breaking even. if they leave earlier, i am making a loss. a friend of mine tried this business and couldn't make it work financially.
There's a software shop in my area that works the same way.
I used to work for a managed service provider and their NOC was the same way. They would cycle through newbie guys constantly since they had a pretty low cap on NOC tech pay. I was a design engineer so I was out of their direct loop, but close enough to observe.
A lot of the local network engineers in the Austin area owe their start to working on that NOC desk- they were fairly large so they kept 30ish people fairly busy. Once they reached a certain level of competency they either moved to supervisory positions or got poached...
A lot of the local network engineers in the Austin area owe their start to working on that NOC desk- they were fairly large so they kept 30ish people fairly busy. Once they reached a certain level of competency they either moved to supervisory positions or got poached...
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could you link to that shop? i'd like to know how they make it work. i have seen a friend fail trying the same thing...
> I hear drugs is a big problem with applicants
Possible legalisation of drugs and stuff around that is a matter of interest for me, so if you can elaborate on that I'd appreciate it.
Possible legalisation of drugs and stuff around that is a matter of interest for me, so if you can elaborate on that I'd appreciate it.
Since welding is a hazardous occupation, safety is a big concern. As such, they drug test workers on a regular basis. If you fail, you get fired.
Even if drugs were legalized, this would still happen.
Even if drugs were legalized, this would still happen.
"Even if drugs were legalized, this would still happen" - that's what I was after. Thanks.
Maybe I should temper my response.
They test for drugs because being under the influence of drugs (including alcohol) is a safety hazard. I suppose if tests were developed that could differentiate between "I'm intoxicated" and "I smoked on my day off", the situation could change.
They test for drugs because being under the influence of drugs (including alcohol) is a safety hazard. I suppose if tests were developed that could differentiate between "I'm intoxicated" and "I smoked on my day off", the situation could change.
There's a Y Combinator startup for that: https://techcrunch.com/2019/08/13/y-combinator-bets-on-a-sta...
I'm hoping for the marijuana legalization people that test happens because get the feeling that DUI is going to be a problem.
Although I'm arguably pro legalisation I have problems with this. It assumes drugs = MJ, and from observation I'd say alcohol is a more dangerous drug in the way it disinhibits more risky behaviour than MJ - but there should never, ever be use of any drugs, legal or illegal, that can affect someone when they do potentially dangerous work. I think we can all agree on that.
My bigger problem with legalisation is my experience of the utter fucking stupidity that suddenly manifests when drugs are present. Responsible use just does not seem part of many people's nature. I include legal drugs like alcohol in that.
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Bit of info, more FYI than actually relevant to the point here, but interesting: a mate of mine works in the office of a largish UK company.
He mentioned that there is drug testing for him and others in the office, at which point I predictably blew my top, assuming it's fucking intrusive American working practices come with American companies trying to spread fucking witless American drug policies over the world (and that is real problem IMO).
Hold on, said my mate, and pointed out that the company has a sizeable workforce that goes out to fix heavy, moving infrastructure under risky conditions. Drug testing is necessary under those conditions, agreed? And if they test them, the company can hardly make an exemption for the office staff, right?
Couldn't agree more.
My bigger problem with legalisation is my experience of the utter fucking stupidity that suddenly manifests when drugs are present. Responsible use just does not seem part of many people's nature. I include legal drugs like alcohol in that.
---
Bit of info, more FYI than actually relevant to the point here, but interesting: a mate of mine works in the office of a largish UK company.
He mentioned that there is drug testing for him and others in the office, at which point I predictably blew my top, assuming it's fucking intrusive American working practices come with American companies trying to spread fucking witless American drug policies over the world (and that is real problem IMO).
Hold on, said my mate, and pointed out that the company has a sizeable workforce that goes out to fix heavy, moving infrastructure under risky conditions. Drug testing is necessary under those conditions, agreed? And if they test them, the company can hardly make an exemption for the office staff, right?
Couldn't agree more.
.. why can't they only test those who do field work?
Because it would be grossly unfair. Very likely illegal too.
Why would it be unfair? This is a simple cost-benefit risk management. Of course testing people has some cost (harder to find employees, privacy concerns, bad PR, the actual cost of the testing and management of testing), of course if someone fucks up that has an even bigger cost usually, so preventing fuckup while high seems to have a big positive cost-benefit. Okay, then simply get a threshold and look at the risk involved for each individual role/position and test those that are above.
Unfairness is a purely emotional judgement. I can see it, if you can't that's just how it is. I don't mean that negatively.
But fairness comes in under the law, it's formalised as discrimination. That is something companies are rightly keen to avoid.
But fairness comes in under the law, it's formalised as discrimination. That is something companies are rightly keen to avoid.
I'm asking for the moral calculation that lead you to say it's unfair to make the lives harder for only those who are above a threshold for certain risks.
And also how the law works, what's the legal test to determine fairness?
And also how the law works, what's the legal test to determine fairness?
The brain remains slowed for several days after the high wears off.
Oh, post some bloody evidence will you. Whenever drugs get raised someone comes along and makes unbacked blanket statements like this that don't help.
If you're going to say something potentially very useful, at least back it up.
If you're going to say something potentially very useful, at least back it up.
Source: years of personal experience
There are obviously issues with having drugged workers in dangerous environments.
There are other professions which have problems with substance abuse but which take an approach that is more focused on rehabilitation. I have heard of this occurring for dentists and medical doctors but I haven’t heard of drug testing all practitioners and can’t imagine the uproar such a proposal would cause.
There are other professions which have problems with substance abuse but which take an approach that is more focused on rehabilitation. I have heard of this occurring for dentists and medical doctors but I haven’t heard of drug testing all practitioners and can’t imagine the uproar such a proposal would cause.
Many physical labor jobs require applicants to take a drug test and breathalyzer on their first day of work. For some reason, a fair number of workers do not realize this and end up failing one of the tests and get fired on the first day.
Restaurants and construction were for years the only places ex cons could find work. If those go away from overzealous screening where will those folks find work?
Maybe they can lay off the cocaine for a few days then? If I were a restaurant owner I wouldn't bat an eyelash at a positive MJ result though. I definitely don't want coke/meth heads though.
Parent said ex-cons. If they're 'laying the cocaine for a few days' they're still ex-cons, and no more employable.
> I definitely don't want coke/meth heads though.
Why do you think that is worse than MJ? I know a guy who uses meth and he's reliable and can hold down a job. Have you any reason to hold that view other than from anti-drug propaganda? (not intended as snark)
> I definitely don't want coke/meth heads though.
Why do you think that is worse than MJ? I know a guy who uses meth and he's reliable and can hold down a job. Have you any reason to hold that view other than from anti-drug propaganda? (not intended as snark)
This is a glorified anecdote by a smug Atlantic writer yutz; dripping with condescension "There is no doubt that Orry would benefit from high-quality face-to-face instruction from a caring and conscientious English professor.." It's also a red-herring. Nobody believes an average welder makes $150k a year. In fact, we know what they make: a lower middle class salary (admittedly linked in the column):
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers...
The guys who actually do well, and who do make $150k a year were not enrolled in some shitty associates degree program (this article should really be on the failure of the US higher education scam); they're highly skilled former Navy machinists.
And of course, the reason working class jobs like welder don't make more is simple: we keep importing new low skilled laborers, driving the price of low-skilled labor down. Mercantilism and labor laws could fix this. Instead we get dimwits from the Atlantic suggesting welders go to English class.
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers...
The guys who actually do well, and who do make $150k a year were not enrolled in some shitty associates degree program (this article should really be on the failure of the US higher education scam); they're highly skilled former Navy machinists.
And of course, the reason working class jobs like welder don't make more is simple: we keep importing new low skilled laborers, driving the price of low-skilled labor down. Mercantilism and labor laws could fix this. Instead we get dimwits from the Atlantic suggesting welders go to English class.
You're arguing with people who have never been on a real job site. Here, they think job site means monster.com or indeed.com.
I spent about a week at a natural gas power plant in Oregon being built to work on some telecom. Welders there ranged from 80k-120k that I knew. To be fair, I don't know of any welder above water that could make 150k. I only know the 150 range to be for deep sea oil guys. But that's just my experience. Either way, it's not like you get out of the gate being that class of welder. It's getting cert'd in difference environments, tolerances and types of welding, along with experience that get you to that level. And I don't know a single career blue-collar that thinks otherwise. Unless they're really stupid and anything above 30k a year is unbelievable to them.
"You mean you have to develop extra skills that separate you from the herd to get paid more? No! Really?" Same goes for programming too if we're all being honest.
I spent about a week at a natural gas power plant in Oregon being built to work on some telecom. Welders there ranged from 80k-120k that I knew. To be fair, I don't know of any welder above water that could make 150k. I only know the 150 range to be for deep sea oil guys. But that's just my experience. Either way, it's not like you get out of the gate being that class of welder. It's getting cert'd in difference environments, tolerances and types of welding, along with experience that get you to that level. And I don't know a single career blue-collar that thinks otherwise. Unless they're really stupid and anything above 30k a year is unbelievable to them.
"You mean you have to develop extra skills that separate you from the herd to get paid more? No! Really?" Same goes for programming too if we're all being honest.
Yeah, I grew up in a very rural area with a major natural gas pipeline running through it. I know a lot of folks who work on pipelines. Welders who have all of the certifications/etc needed for that job do quite well. ~$100k is pretty standard for someone who meets the qualifications, and that's in an area with a dirt cheap cost of living.
It takes a lot of work experience and education to meet those qualifications, though. You're welding specialized alloys and need to make absolutely airtight welds in weird orientations and tight spaces. Mistakes get expensive fast. These folks aren't just out of tech school. They're mid-late career professionals who are _really damned good_ at what they do.
Saturation divers (i.e. "deep sea oil guys") and even some salvage divers can all make significantly more, but that's an additional, hard-to-find skillset tacked on top of the welding certifications and it's often contract work instead of full-time. It's also a lot more physically demanding and damned dangerous. The $150-200k/year welders exist, but an awful lot are ex-Navy folks with a decade or so of experience working in very extreme environments.
It takes a lot of work experience and education to meet those qualifications, though. You're welding specialized alloys and need to make absolutely airtight welds in weird orientations and tight spaces. Mistakes get expensive fast. These folks aren't just out of tech school. They're mid-late career professionals who are _really damned good_ at what they do.
Saturation divers (i.e. "deep sea oil guys") and even some salvage divers can all make significantly more, but that's an additional, hard-to-find skillset tacked on top of the welding certifications and it's often contract work instead of full-time. It's also a lot more physically demanding and damned dangerous. The $150-200k/year welders exist, but an awful lot are ex-Navy folks with a decade or so of experience working in very extreme environments.
That's the funny part when you mention specialized alloys. There's a whole bunch of people out there, even though they don't have a college degree, who have an amazingly keen sense and in-depth knowledge of these specialized alloys and how to manipulate them in the real world. These are the folks that get the high range salaries, for very good reason. Now, it may be unfair that I say no college degree. They do take classes and other courses. But that's where we try to make a difference between trade/vocational school and college.
While I do see the value in theoretical and academic knowledge. I really do. There's zero fucking reason to assume it's grander than practical/vocational knowledge. One of the few jokes I like out of the Big Bang Theory (fucking hate that show but my ex loved it), the group was driving out somewhere for some reason, but the car breaks down. Whoever the main guy was says "Who knows anything about internal combustion engines?". All of them start saying they know plenty, yada yada. "Who knows how to fix one?" Silence.
Both sides need each other, academic and vocational. Neither side can advance without the other. But I'll gladly be the one to rag on academics if they act superior to the tradesmen until that stupidity ends.
While I do see the value in theoretical and academic knowledge. I really do. There's zero fucking reason to assume it's grander than practical/vocational knowledge. One of the few jokes I like out of the Big Bang Theory (fucking hate that show but my ex loved it), the group was driving out somewhere for some reason, but the car breaks down. Whoever the main guy was says "Who knows anything about internal combustion engines?". All of them start saying they know plenty, yada yada. "Who knows how to fix one?" Silence.
Both sides need each other, academic and vocational. Neither side can advance without the other. But I'll gladly be the one to rag on academics if they act superior to the tradesmen until that stupidity ends.
I was also told that you got excellent pay working on welding for chemical plant. But all welds are checked, and one serious mistake meant you lost your job at that level permanently (no one would hire you anywhere for that job). Anecdotal of course...
Well, that's the one downside to becoming the "best" in a field. There's fewer and fewer at your caliber. Thus, your name technically has more meaning. That goes outside blue collar too.
The Navy has drydocks and whatnot, they regularly commission and decommission boats. Why do they need relavitively so many more specialists?
> I only know the 150 range to be for deep sea oil guys.
I've read about these "saturation divers". Guys that go down inside a diving bell for weeks at a time and breath a mix of helium. Only highly skilled divers can do this (ie, lots of experience), and if I remember correctly, have to stop by age 40(ish). So there's this narrow window of time where they can make that kind of money. But these guys could make $175-$200k.
Obviously this is a tiny, tiny fraction of welders for only a portion of there career. I just found it really fascinating how the whole process works. Living down there for days or weeks at a time.
I've read about these "saturation divers". Guys that go down inside a diving bell for weeks at a time and breath a mix of helium. Only highly skilled divers can do this (ie, lots of experience), and if I remember correctly, have to stop by age 40(ish). So there's this narrow window of time where they can make that kind of money. But these guys could make $175-$200k.
Obviously this is a tiny, tiny fraction of welders for only a portion of there career. I just found it really fascinating how the whole process works. Living down there for days or weeks at a time.
> they're highly skilled former Navy machinists.
In general, no. Professional welders who do well economically typically have a few things in common that have nothing to do with their origin or education:
* They work very hard (60+ hours a week or more), usually on an hourly wage and make overtime pay/holiday pay/hazard pay
* They work either for themselves or in a small shop rather than for a large business or manufacturer. Large businesses typically cap salaries for their workers at a number high enough to attract the skills they need, but low enough to protect profits for the shareholders.
* The welders have the needed certifications or specialty skill set to meet the demand in a particular niche of the market
* They live near or are able to commute or move to an area with significant demand for their particular specialty.
The most obvious example at the moment are the welders in the oil patch (Bakken shale) in North Dakota. Many of the welders working there are working nearly 24/7, making a lot of money because oil production requires pipeline welders and the oil companies are paying lots of labor overtime to avoid any interruptions in production.
For the most part, the only qualification needed is the welding certificate for the type of welding they'll be doing. The employers don't care that you didn't finish high school or that you are an ex-con, as long as you have the paper (you passed the welding tests) and can read basic instructions you're paid a decent hourly wage.
Since there's such demand, you can work as much as you want, and since you're hourly you get overtime and holiday pay.
Another example is nuclear welders... TIG welders who are certified for welding stainless, monel, or other piping types used in nuclear reactors do fairly well. They have to have certifications in the welding types used (TIG or specialized stick, mostly) and they have to pass the basic security checks needed to work on a reactor site. Reactors need maintenance, and they aren't going away soon, so there's a demand.
The myth of welders being rich is something pushed by the various politicians who benefit from being able to say that student loan debt isn't a problem. It's true that a welder CAN make a ton of cash, but those examples aren't the entire workforce and there's always a price to pay. An underwater welder can make over $1 million in take home pay over a 5 year career that usually ends due to chronic injuries from high pressure environments that last a lifetime.
In general, no. Professional welders who do well economically typically have a few things in common that have nothing to do with their origin or education:
* They work very hard (60+ hours a week or more), usually on an hourly wage and make overtime pay/holiday pay/hazard pay
* They work either for themselves or in a small shop rather than for a large business or manufacturer. Large businesses typically cap salaries for their workers at a number high enough to attract the skills they need, but low enough to protect profits for the shareholders.
* The welders have the needed certifications or specialty skill set to meet the demand in a particular niche of the market
* They live near or are able to commute or move to an area with significant demand for their particular specialty.
The most obvious example at the moment are the welders in the oil patch (Bakken shale) in North Dakota. Many of the welders working there are working nearly 24/7, making a lot of money because oil production requires pipeline welders and the oil companies are paying lots of labor overtime to avoid any interruptions in production.
For the most part, the only qualification needed is the welding certificate for the type of welding they'll be doing. The employers don't care that you didn't finish high school or that you are an ex-con, as long as you have the paper (you passed the welding tests) and can read basic instructions you're paid a decent hourly wage.
Since there's such demand, you can work as much as you want, and since you're hourly you get overtime and holiday pay.
Another example is nuclear welders... TIG welders who are certified for welding stainless, monel, or other piping types used in nuclear reactors do fairly well. They have to have certifications in the welding types used (TIG or specialized stick, mostly) and they have to pass the basic security checks needed to work on a reactor site. Reactors need maintenance, and they aren't going away soon, so there's a demand.
The myth of welders being rich is something pushed by the various politicians who benefit from being able to say that student loan debt isn't a problem. It's true that a welder CAN make a ton of cash, but those examples aren't the entire workforce and there's always a price to pay. An underwater welder can make over $1 million in take home pay over a 5 year career that usually ends due to chronic injuries from high pressure environments that last a lifetime.
I object to the labeling of Associates Degree programs as 'shitty'. In my experience, AS programs are just far more practicality oriented than academic BSs.
You want to learn how the math behind Dijkstra's algorithm works, get a BS. You want to learn how to build a network, get an AS.
You want to learn how the math behind Dijkstra's algorithm works, get a BS. You want to learn how to build a network, get an AS.
You might be right regarding computer associates: but getting a degree in something like welding is just increasing the number of firey hoops someone has to jump through to do a job he can be trained on the job for, or in a union apprenticeship program.
I myself learned welding on the job: at a muffler company, and again later in a government lab. The answer to social problems is not always "more school."
I myself learned welding on the job: at a muffler company, and again later in a government lab. The answer to social problems is not always "more school."
This is in fact quite common in the welding world. Several other comments mention companies that hire anyone and train them to weld. I've also read articles from the oil field companies that they do the same. So does the military, if you pass the aptitude test at least. That said, my community college will teach you to run a CNC laser welding machine, a CNC plasma table, a robotic arm MIG, etc. Getting into all of that off the street is rare.
The trade skills degrees have their place, but the 'shitty' descriptor really applies to AS degrees in academic theory-- an AS in CS from University of Phoenix or Full Sail or whatever will cost way more than a BS from a proper university and the credits only selectively transfer to other AS-level programs.
It's such a waste of money it should just be considered fraud.
It's such a waste of money it should just be considered fraud.
My experimental concept for post-secondary schooling goes as follows:
Spend four years at junior college(s) taking useful sounding classes. German, welding, programming, calculus, jazz band, EMT, with no intention of getting an associates degree (which is of little value in any case).
Cheap, and you might actually learn something. In the modern era, I'm not so sure that following the obvious path is the right idea anymore.
Spend four years at junior college(s) taking useful sounding classes. German, welding, programming, calculus, jazz band, EMT, with no intention of getting an associates degree (which is of little value in any case).
Cheap, and you might actually learn something. In the modern era, I'm not so sure that following the obvious path is the right idea anymore.
That AS probably doesn’t cover anything complex like BGP, right? You can teach yourself how to “build a network” with a couple of books and a few hundred in equipment off of ebay.
Yeah, sure, or you could spend the same few hundred on classes instructed by someone who works or worked at that job and receive a piece of paper saying you did so.
I could say the same about a BS couldn't I? How was it put in Good Will Hunting? “You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.”
I could say the same about a BS couldn't I? How was it put in Good Will Hunting? “You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.”
> Nobody believes an average welder makes $150k a year. In fact, we know what they make: a lower middle class salary.
I think the ongoing repetition of the claim, and the fact that it seems to work for those repeating it, would suggest otherwise?
I think the ongoing repetition of the claim, and the fact that it seems to work for those repeating it, would suggest otherwise?
"Nobody believes an average welder makes $150k a year."
The main point of the article is that politicians from a particular party say that they do. It then goes into a lot of examination as to why that's not true.
The main point of the article is that politicians from a particular party say that they do. It then goes into a lot of examination as to why that's not true.
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But someone needs to grasp at straws and keep the idea that the only key to success is a college degree alive!
I love how liberal press screams "blue-collar workers can't get jobs", but if you try to hire plumber or electrician for a day job you will be lucky to schedule someone in the next few weeks and then will pay $1000 for a 6-hour visit.
That doesn't mean much.
The usual problem is that there are big swathes of the population living in regions without a healthy/diverse/growing economy. (Eg areas that are or once were monocultures of one particular sector, and/or are/were based on natural resource extraction. So basically fossil jobs and auto making are the prime examples.)
The needed retraining, relocation, and/or regional revitalization is completely non-existent in the Trump era, and it wasn't really effective/serious during the Obama administration either.
So, nothing to do with how much a plumber makes in a big city.
The usual problem is that there are big swathes of the population living in regions without a healthy/diverse/growing economy. (Eg areas that are or once were monocultures of one particular sector, and/or are/were based on natural resource extraction. So basically fossil jobs and auto making are the prime examples.)
The needed retraining, relocation, and/or regional revitalization is completely non-existent in the Trump era, and it wasn't really effective/serious during the Obama administration either.
So, nothing to do with how much a plumber makes in a big city.
I'm not a welder but I have friends who are and it seems like this is painting the most difficult, least lucrative way to go about this as the norm(ie the whole thing is a strawman) and then crapping on it.
My friends who got into welding mostly did so through aprenticeships with unions or on the job non union apprenticeships.
They will probably not become millionaires selling their time as welders but they are solidly middle if not upper middle class. They go on international vacations and eat at fancy restraunts. They are fairing on average far better than my friends with "soft" liberal arts degrees.
Yeah it's not a total panacea easy road to riches but learning a trade like welding seems like a super high EV move for a lot of people who want a stable career right now.
My friends who got into welding mostly did so through aprenticeships with unions or on the job non union apprenticeships.
They will probably not become millionaires selling their time as welders but they are solidly middle if not upper middle class. They go on international vacations and eat at fancy restraunts. They are fairing on average far better than my friends with "soft" liberal arts degrees.
Yeah it's not a total panacea easy road to riches but learning a trade like welding seems like a super high EV move for a lot of people who want a stable career right now.
Although unions have their flaws, they do help to keep wages high for skilled workers, both in terms of the prevailing wage but also in enforcing overtime rules (double time for Sunday work, for instance). They also prevent out-of-area workers from coming into an area when times are good. Skilled union workers in the Bay Area can work 168 hours per week right now if they want to.
The primary mechanism unions use to keep wages high for union members is to limit supply by lobbying to keep "un-certified" or "non-union" members out of the market. This provides a nice buffer, keeping the poorer class poor and protecting the middle class.
Do you have a source for this?
Nobel Economist Milton Friedman, for one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzYgiOC9cj4 If you watch to the end he fully explains how the net effect of unions is to raise the pay of high paid workers and lower the pay of low paid workers.
You might also like "Basic Economics" by Thomas Sowell which talks about this phenomenon also.
You might also like "Basic Economics" by Thomas Sowell which talks about this phenomenon also.
Welding sounds pretty good after a career doing software.
I mostly like the idea of it as a means to an end. Not so much a way to make money working on trailer hitches but as a necessary skill for a race car fabricator or artist.
Truth is, we should probably all start over every decade or so. It's impractical, but you'd go to your grave with a more interesting resume.
I mostly like the idea of it as a means to an end. Not so much a way to make money working on trailer hitches but as a necessary skill for a race car fabricator or artist.
Truth is, we should probably all start over every decade or so. It's impractical, but you'd go to your grave with a more interesting resume.
I'd love to explore other lives, and I sort-of have. But with a family, the reality of our economy is that there isn't any support for that. Just throwing away good medical insurance is enough to stop most people. I know from experience it only takes starting over and going broke once to really regret ever thinking it was a good idea and romanticizing how "interesting" you are. I speculate based on extrapolating my experience that you probably get more time to learn how to weld race cars and art as a software engineer than you ever would as a welder.
Same story. I used to work with welders (I was a test engineer) and they had all apprenticed and not gone to "welding college."
Could be myopia on the part of the author in looking at a college-trained welder, since the author seems to imply traditional college is a better path to financial stability than welding college (which may be entirely true).
Could be myopia on the part of the author in looking at a college-trained welder, since the author seems to imply traditional college is a better path to financial stability than welding college (which may be entirely true).
This article was horrible. Describing the costs/benefits of forgoing college for a trade would be the kind of discussion that I think Hacker News is made for, but not with this poor quality article.
First, it cherry picks a single example of someone who obviously had a ton of other shit going on (got fired for missing too much work) and then seems to draw from that the conclusion that "Welding won't make you rich". Then it complains that the 150k salaries for welders bandied about are rare, but so what? Did anyone think a welder right out of the gate would make that much money? I think most of us understand that your average developer isn't making 400k a year at Google, either, but that doesn't mean that's an invalid data point.
The reason people should be interested about the trades are:
1. They are immune from offshoring, which has had a huge impact on other blue collar jobs like manufacturing. 2. If they are a viable, and secure, path to the middle class, they should be supported.
There are lots of valid issues to discuss (the toll it takes on your body is a big one), but would be better to see it from an article with better data and less out-of-the-gate bias.
First, it cherry picks a single example of someone who obviously had a ton of other shit going on (got fired for missing too much work) and then seems to draw from that the conclusion that "Welding won't make you rich". Then it complains that the 150k salaries for welders bandied about are rare, but so what? Did anyone think a welder right out of the gate would make that much money? I think most of us understand that your average developer isn't making 400k a year at Google, either, but that doesn't mean that's an invalid data point.
The reason people should be interested about the trades are:
1. They are immune from offshoring, which has had a huge impact on other blue collar jobs like manufacturing. 2. If they are a viable, and secure, path to the middle class, they should be supported.
There are lots of valid issues to discuss (the toll it takes on your body is a big one), but would be better to see it from an article with better data and less out-of-the-gate bias.
> it complains that the 150k salaries for welders bandied about are rare, but so what? Did anyone think a welder right out of the gate would make that much money?
If you read it, they say the 90th percentile welder gets paid $60k a year. That is, the average 15+ year experience welder gets paid way less than 50% of the original $150k claim.
If you read it, they say the 90th percentile welder gets paid $60k a year. That is, the average 15+ year experience welder gets paid way less than 50% of the original $150k claim.
Your response is exactly why I think the article is horrible - why not lets look at the source data and then discuss that: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers...
What this says is that the 90th percentile for this entire group of "Welders, Cutters, Solderers and Brazers" was $63,740.
But the small table there also says that there is a big difference in the average between "specialty trade contractors" and "manufacturing", which isn't that surprising. It also says nothing about the age range (I don't know where you got your 15+ year experience data from), so when looking at percentiles, it wouldn't be surprising that the field has a ton of junior folks that brings down the average.
It would be very interesting to see what the distribution looks like for master welders with at least 10 years experience, but the article has none of that data.
Furthermore, if you dig into the 150k claim, you'll see that that is almost always for welders in high demand areas, like oil and gas during the fracking boom. That doesn't make it apocryphal, just constrained to a specific industry.
What this says is that the 90th percentile for this entire group of "Welders, Cutters, Solderers and Brazers" was $63,740.
But the small table there also says that there is a big difference in the average between "specialty trade contractors" and "manufacturing", which isn't that surprising. It also says nothing about the age range (I don't know where you got your 15+ year experience data from), so when looking at percentiles, it wouldn't be surprising that the field has a ton of junior folks that brings down the average.
It would be very interesting to see what the distribution looks like for master welders with at least 10 years experience, but the article has none of that data.
Furthermore, if you dig into the 150k claim, you'll see that that is almost always for welders in high demand areas, like oil and gas during the fracking boom. That doesn't make it apocryphal, just constrained to a specific industry.
A specific industry for a short period of time.
Yeah, the article starts out describing $150k salaries in Ohio then makes a case study of some guy in the notoriously-poor North Carolina Appalachian region who didn't even become a welder.
What kind of piss-poor journalism is that?
What kind of piss-poor journalism is that?
The problem is, ultimately, "the trades" are like any other occupation. You can't make $60k a year, let alone $150k a year welding, if you're otherwise making poor decisions.
The people doing well at the trades are bright, skilled, conscientious people -- above average at all of those qualities. Just like the 'professionals' doing well with their college degrees.
The people doing well at the trades are bright, skilled, conscientious people -- above average at all of those qualities. Just like the 'professionals' doing well with their college degrees.
>>> 1. They are immune from offshoring, which has had a huge impact on other blue collar jobs like manufacturing.
No job is immune from measures that eliminate skilled labor. Consider plumbing. Sure, you need someone to plumb a house. But where my house is plumbed with copper sweat fittings, a contemporary house is plumbed with plastic tubing and swaged fittings that take much less skill and effort. On-site carpentry work is replaced by increasing use of prefab components and things that just snap together. Jobs won't disappear overnight, but there's still a downward pressure on skilled labor content. Prefabrication could easily affect the domestic market for welders.
>>> 2. If they are a viable, and secure, path to the middle class, they should be supported.
In my view, support labor through better labor laws, and a stronger safety net that includes health care and retirement. Support education. The trades go through boom-bust cycles. The fact that politicians are talking about training more welders could be a signal of the end of a cycle. A career has to last 40 years. Which trades will be in demand in the next decades?
No job is immune from measures that eliminate skilled labor. Consider plumbing. Sure, you need someone to plumb a house. But where my house is plumbed with copper sweat fittings, a contemporary house is plumbed with plastic tubing and swaged fittings that take much less skill and effort. On-site carpentry work is replaced by increasing use of prefab components and things that just snap together. Jobs won't disappear overnight, but there's still a downward pressure on skilled labor content. Prefabrication could easily affect the domestic market for welders.
>>> 2. If they are a viable, and secure, path to the middle class, they should be supported.
In my view, support labor through better labor laws, and a stronger safety net that includes health care and retirement. Support education. The trades go through boom-bust cycles. The fact that politicians are talking about training more welders could be a signal of the end of a cycle. A career has to last 40 years. Which trades will be in demand in the next decades?
You shouldn't need to make $150k to get by as a welder. In any sensible society a person who knows how to do something useful like weld should be able to muddle along. Some of my friends from high school in Oklahoma became oil field welders in the 90s. They made good money, bought houses and raised children early in life. It seems like a square deal to me. Of course, that was possible because houses in Oklahoma were plentiful and cheap and the public schools were good and so forth. You know, the way civil society is supposed to work.
There's a piece of specialty equipment I just learned about recently while pulling on a thread regarding one of my hobbies. It's pretty expensive and I'd probably only need it four times in as many years so I was looking around for other options like rentals or tool libraries. Found nothing.
Then I end up in the DIY section, and for about ten seconds I think I hit paydirt. Then I realize that every. single. video. is by some guy who knows his way around an arc welder. And not like "This video is for people who know how to weld," just, "okay cut these pieces and then you weld em together and then you're done." Like everyone or their brother knows how to weld.
Now I bring this up because clearly there is some subset of people who are saving a great deal of money by making specialty tools out of stock or scrap instead of buying it. I know a bunch of amateur carpenters and a few woodworkers, but didn't think I know any amateur welders.
Then I end up in the DIY section, and for about ten seconds I think I hit paydirt. Then I realize that every. single. video. is by some guy who knows his way around an arc welder. And not like "This video is for people who know how to weld," just, "okay cut these pieces and then you weld em together and then you're done." Like everyone or their brother knows how to weld.
Now I bring this up because clearly there is some subset of people who are saving a great deal of money by making specialty tools out of stock or scrap instead of buying it. I know a bunch of amateur carpenters and a few woodworkers, but didn't think I know any amateur welders.
Specialty welding can be complicated, but basic utilitarian welding is not. Head out to your local tool store, pick up a cheap MIG machine and some scrap steel, and plunk yourself down in front of YouTube for a couple of hours, and then spend a few hours practicing.
Now, this won't make you good enough to weld on a bridge or an airplane, but you'll definitely be able to stick metal together for doing one-off stuff at home.
Now, this won't make you good enough to weld on a bridge or an airplane, but you'll definitely be able to stick metal together for doing one-off stuff at home.
Small time farmers seem to be a lot more likely to know these sorts of skills, because it allows them to save an obscene amount of money on specialty equipment by modifying something inexpensive to do the job.
When the commercial offerings are $100,000+ but you can make something good enough yourself for $20,000 or less, well, yeah, it is well worth it to take the time to learn welding, since you will more than make up for it with just one such project.
When the commercial offerings are $100,000+ but you can make something good enough yourself for $20,000 or less, well, yeah, it is well worth it to take the time to learn welding, since you will more than make up for it with just one such project.
Small time farmers are not trying to save money so much as time. When you are in the middle of nowhere with a broken part no amount of money can get you back in the field in 20 minutes (if the welder is sitting by the phone waiting for your call he can just barely get there in that time, but he hasn't looked at the part yet). 1 minute with your own welder and you have a repair that will let you limp to the end of the busy season where you can decide if it is good enough or you need to repair it right.
Small time farmers seem to be a lot more likely to know these sorts of skills, because it allows them to save an obscene amount of money on specialty equipment by modifying something inexpensive to do the job.
That's how/why my grandfather knew how to weld. And all his children. And his grandchildren too. His kids all went to college but also got a big boost from having practical hands-on skills to augment with theory and specialization. One of my uncles got a PhD and then spent most of his career helping grad students fabricate equipment for their field experiments, because hardly any other students or professors knew practical welding/soldering/instrumentation.
That's how/why my grandfather knew how to weld. And all his children. And his grandchildren too. His kids all went to college but also got a big boost from having practical hands-on skills to augment with theory and specialization. One of my uncles got a PhD and then spent most of his career helping grad students fabricate equipment for their field experiments, because hardly any other students or professors knew practical welding/soldering/instrumentation.
It took me 10 minutes to learn how to weld. If you only need it for DIY stuff then it's very easy to learn. But if you need to satisfy safety requirements or tolerances then it gets much harder.
It's the same as in software: All those people who think they know how to do programming because they can whip up some shitty python script. But that's the easy part. Making an application that works superficially is practically trivial. Making something that is proven to work, that scales and will still work in 10 years is where the money is.
It's the same as in software: All those people who think they know how to do programming because they can whip up some shitty python script. But that's the easy part. Making an application that works superficially is practically trivial. Making something that is proven to work, that scales and will still work in 10 years is where the money is.
There's a shop in my town where you can pay by the hour to use welding equipment. It's pretty popular. https://www.thecrucible.org/departments/welding/
And they teach classes in it (and just about every other industrial art), too! It's an amazing place.
I learned how to weld in high-school years ago. It would be sort of nice to be able to weld a thing or two now, but my skills are probably not very good, and safety is very important. Also, the equipment isn't cheap.
A cheap inverter arc welder is a few hundred dollars - not expensive.
Hire one and have a go on any 5mm+ steel job you have and you will likely surprise yourself.
The inverter welders are also way easier to use (and portable) compared to the old school transformer welders (i.e. don't buy a second hand transformer welder unless you are a hipster).
Hire one and have a go on any 5mm+ steel job you have and you will likely surprise yourself.
The inverter welders are also way easier to use (and portable) compared to the old school transformer welders (i.e. don't buy a second hand transformer welder unless you are a hipster).
I always feel a bit inadequate when I go to my parents' house and look around in the shop at all the tools and odds and ends related to metal working that I have zero idea how to use. And even that is a small smattering of what my dad actually knew how to use.
I don't know if its a time and place thing where those skills were more relevant to a rural farm boy in the 60s than they are today, or just that such people still have those skills, but I'm just not one of them...
I don't know if its a time and place thing where those skills were more relevant to a rural farm boy in the 60s than they are today, or just that such people still have those skills, but I'm just not one of them...
You can pick up a lot of wood and metalworking skills from just watching YouTube and SAFELY experimenting. You’re not going to become a master tradesman or anything but you can pick up a great deal of know-how. Just get a list of things you want to learn and spend some time in dad’s workshop with a laptop showing YouTube.
I currently feel comfortable doing basic home plumbing, electrical, my own auto maintenance, building small pieces of wood furniture, and light metalwork (bending, drilling, riveting, etc). Next up that I’d like to learn is welding and fiberglass. With so many resources out there for free, your only limitation is time and access to basic tools.
I currently feel comfortable doing basic home plumbing, electrical, my own auto maintenance, building small pieces of wood furniture, and light metalwork (bending, drilling, riveting, etc). Next up that I’d like to learn is welding and fiberglass. With so many resources out there for free, your only limitation is time and access to basic tools.
I'm surprised. Probably because I live in a rural area, but the average person having basic welding equipment isn't unusual around these parts.
I can't help but consider the wider background of this story.
Across the country, high schools have been cutting shop classes. Administrators push 4-year college as the only viable option. Anything else is increasingly viewed as irresponsible advice.
At the same time, 4-year college costs have been skyrocketing. Students are taking on levels of debt that the previous generation would have thought obscene.
Meanwhile, the breadth of degrees that can reasonably be expected to service the debt of a 4-year college stint, let alone earn a living afterwards, appears to be shrinking.
Just because some degrees are currently in high demand doesn't mean that will be the case in 1, 2, or 5 years. Tech recessions can be brutal given how leveraged the booms are.
At the center of all of this is automation in numerous forms. The changes we've seen so far will only accelerate. There's little evidence to suggest that today's economies will be up to the challenge of providing economically viable pathways for young people starting out.
The myth of higher education as the pathway to a middle class lifestyle has all the hallmarks of an idea that will die a slow, agonizing death. We're utterly unprepared for what comes next.
Across the country, high schools have been cutting shop classes. Administrators push 4-year college as the only viable option. Anything else is increasingly viewed as irresponsible advice.
At the same time, 4-year college costs have been skyrocketing. Students are taking on levels of debt that the previous generation would have thought obscene.
Meanwhile, the breadth of degrees that can reasonably be expected to service the debt of a 4-year college stint, let alone earn a living afterwards, appears to be shrinking.
Just because some degrees are currently in high demand doesn't mean that will be the case in 1, 2, or 5 years. Tech recessions can be brutal given how leveraged the booms are.
At the center of all of this is automation in numerous forms. The changes we've seen so far will only accelerate. There's little evidence to suggest that today's economies will be up to the challenge of providing economically viable pathways for young people starting out.
The myth of higher education as the pathway to a middle class lifestyle has all the hallmarks of an idea that will die a slow, agonizing death. We're utterly unprepared for what comes next.
My local community college's welding program includes classes on robotic MIG welding, automated sub-arc welding and CNC laser welding. These things are progressing in the places where people need to learn it, but it does slowly sort it into fewer and fewer people.
> Administrators push 4-year college as the only viable option. Anything else is increasingly viewed as irresponsible advice.
At the same time, 4-year college costs have been skyrocketing.
Something tells me these things are related...
My old man taught wood shop in a high school. Year after year, there was less and less demand/attendance. To stay securely employed, as he was getting closer to retirement he pivoted over to teaching drafting and then CAD which had tons of interest and were supported by administration. By the time he retired the wood and metal shop classes were gone for good. Pretty sad and worrying to think that since then an entire generation has gone through that school with no opportunity to learn how to actually make a physical good with their hands. We have YouTube now if we want to learn, and it’s a great resource, but it’s hard not to think something has been lost.
Something tells me these things are related...
My old man taught wood shop in a high school. Year after year, there was less and less demand/attendance. To stay securely employed, as he was getting closer to retirement he pivoted over to teaching drafting and then CAD which had tons of interest and were supported by administration. By the time he retired the wood and metal shop classes were gone for good. Pretty sad and worrying to think that since then an entire generation has gone through that school with no opportunity to learn how to actually make a physical good with their hands. We have YouTube now if we want to learn, and it’s a great resource, but it’s hard not to think something has been lost.
> Pretty sad and worrying to think that since then an entire generation has gone through that school with no opportunity to learn how to actually make a physical good with their hands.
Welcome to globalism? 98% of the physical goods you buy are made in the developing world, there's not much point in acquiring these skills here.
Welcome to globalism? 98% of the physical goods you buy are made in the developing world, there's not much point in acquiring these skills here.
A crappy assemble-at-home Target organizer costs like $20 and probably cost a fraction of that to manufacture, but a fancy artisanal lacquered organizer made by the hobbyists across town can be sold for several times the cost of supplies and labor.
But a lot of folks feel the squeeze so they buy the crappy Target one instead.
But a lot of folks feel the squeeze so they buy the crappy Target one instead.
This reminds me of my neighbor who had recently retired and began a side business making furniture in his garage. He was just looking to make a little beer money, but his business grew quickly just through word of mouth and he was complaining to me that now it was more of a job than he had before he retired. He was thinking about shutting the whole thing down.
If artisanal, hand-crafted, built-to-spec, lacquered organizers became a big enough business, there will be, before the year is out, a school in Vietnam that will train thousands of people how to build them, by hand, to-spec, artisanally for <$1/hour.
I'm old enough ( graduated HS 1987 ) to have had woodworking in middle school. Still have the shitty pine box I made in class. I now enjoy woodworking as a hobby, not a profession. Currently building a dresser for the bedroom. Will take me probably a year. Real wood furniture built by real craftsmen is expensive, because labor aint cheap. Most people don't want to spend / can't afford to spend anymore.
I wonder to what extent insurance issues have driven the death of shop classes. I have no current knowledge, but it wouldn't surprise me if modern day chemistry class has veered away from actually touching dangerous items.
> Across the country, high schools have been cutting shop classes.
I went to the sonoma county fair a few months ago, the student exhibits had a section with welding. There was a lot of pretty good looking work there.
I went to the sonoma county fair a few months ago, the student exhibits had a section with welding. There was a lot of pretty good looking work there.
This article seems to imply 'welding' is a single level skill after you have jumped through X number of academic hoops. this is like saying 'IT' is basically one skill set that can be learnt. There are welders earning vast amounts flying all over the world working on mission critical projects with huge economic and safety dependencies at the top, large numbers of highly talented entrepreneurial artisan welders (who often have many other skills) and people trying to learn a skill at the bottom. The article is like saying someone going to junior college to learn python is discouraged because they aren't immediately thought of as a senior engineer once they get a few qualifications.
The article also goes into the percentiles of wages for the profession as a whole. The 90th percentile makes $60K. It says there's a high floor of wages for the profession, but also a low ceiling, which seems fair
So if you are looking at software development with the same eye, you're going to see high floor, high ceiling, and come to a different conclusion about the profession as a whole.
So if you are looking at software development with the same eye, you're going to see high floor, high ceiling, and come to a different conclusion about the profession as a whole.
>So if you are looking at software development with the same eye, you're going to see high floor, high ceiling, and come to a different conclusion about the profession as a whole
The line between software and IT is blurry. Depending on where you draw the line the floor for software can be pretty low.
The line between software and IT is blurry. Depending on where you draw the line the floor for software can be pretty low.
> The article is like saying someone going to junior college to learn python is discouraged because they aren't immediately thought of as a senior engineer once they get a few qualifications.
"Welders at the 90th percentile of income for the profession, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, earn $63,000 a year before taxes. Those are, statistically, the top earners, and they are usually expert welders with decades of experience."
"Welders at the 90th percentile of income for the profession, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, earn $63,000 a year before taxes. Those are, statistically, the top earners, and they are usually expert welders with decades of experience."
Except that the article has mischaracterized the BLS data. The data is actually for "Welders, Cutters, Solderers, and Brazers" which is not the same as "Welders". [1]
[1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers...
[1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/production/welders-cutters-solderers...
This just seems wrong? Welding varies a ton by state. The Bureau of Labor statistics also says that welders in Alaska earn an average of $65k a year. They aren't all expert welders, it just varies heavily by location.
It says “usually”. That allows for exceptions like Alaska. (I just looked at the stats, and it looks like there is data on 510 welders in Alaska out of 389,190 total, so it’s a tiny exception.)
And probably skewed towards remote oil extraction jobs, with high cost of living (everything has to be flown in) and a difficult overall existence.
Gotta be evenhanded though right?
I mean, the people putting forth the narrative that you can make good money as a welder don't draw any of the distinctions you outline in their anecdotes either.
I mean, the people putting forth the narrative that you can make good money as a welder don't draw any of the distinctions you outline in their anecdotes either.
The person in the anecdote was second to last in their high school class and got fired for missing too much work. No one thinks such a person should be sleeping in the gutter, but let's not beat ourselves up over the fact that they're not making 6 figures here.
They could well come to the same conclusion if they followed a similar person learning "coding"..
Cherry-picked example. Although I do think the Conservative opinion of skilled trades is not really rooted in reality. Most of the better-off tradesmen are sole proprietors.
Cherry-picked example. Although I do think the Conservative opinion of skilled trades is not really rooted in reality. Most of the better-off tradesmen are sole proprietors.
Is it really a "conservative opinion"? I've heard positive stories about the trades from people across the political spectrum.
And of course, the trades aren't a panacea. Demand ebbs and flows and sometimes work can be hard to come by. But I see nothing wrong with suggesting it as an option to a college degree (and the debt that goes along with it). Even if the salary isn't that high, it still beats being unemployed with $20K in student debt.
And of course, the trades aren't a panacea. Demand ebbs and flows and sometimes work can be hard to come by. But I see nothing wrong with suggesting it as an option to a college degree (and the debt that goes along with it). Even if the salary isn't that high, it still beats being unemployed with $20K in student debt.
>Most of the better-off tradesmen are sole proprietors.
That's like saying the better off developers are senior software architects or consultants.
If you want to optimize your trade career for money owning your own business is simply where that path leads.
That's like saying the better off developers are senior software architects or consultants.
If you want to optimize your trade career for money owning your own business is simply where that path leads.
There is a ton of need for skilled blue collar jobs and there are plenty of well paying ones available. More than jobs for ethnic studies majors. This is not opinion this is fact.
That was my takeaway as well, based more on the twice-fired history than the high school performance.
Some people just don't apply themselves. Some just have bad luck. Some have a combination of the two. It's unfair to Orry Carriere (the individual in question) for us who aren't better-versed in his personal history to assume which of the above cases (or perhaps others unmentioned) he falls into.
But regardless, the article seems to have cherry-picked Mr. Carriere. Alternatively, how would someone who graduated in the middle of his class (or near the top) and never was fired from their job have done as a welder?
I'm quite open to the argument that the "wealthy welder" is truly a myth.... but this article was not the most compelling, objective way to make the argument.
Some people just don't apply themselves. Some just have bad luck. Some have a combination of the two. It's unfair to Orry Carriere (the individual in question) for us who aren't better-versed in his personal history to assume which of the above cases (or perhaps others unmentioned) he falls into.
But regardless, the article seems to have cherry-picked Mr. Carriere. Alternatively, how would someone who graduated in the middle of his class (or near the top) and never was fired from their job have done as a welder?
I'm quite open to the argument that the "wealthy welder" is truly a myth.... but this article was not the most compelling, objective way to make the argument.
There are two major reasons why I am really, really not a fan of this stance here.
The first is that we're equating high school performance to life performance. High school in America is a joke for a variety of reasons (lack of funding, gentrification etc) and I don't think highschool performance represents how well a person does at all given how many different circumstances can affect that at a young age.
Second, 'missing too much work' in America can mean things such as 'taking time off because you're sick' or 'having to deal with familial emergencies', all of which many jobs do not at all allow any leeway in.
The person in the article made multiple efforts and worked hard to try and get a better job/life for his family. The fact that you immediately isolate out the things he's had to deal with make me wonder if you've experienced poverty or had to deal with shitty jobs in the past.
The first is that we're equating high school performance to life performance. High school in America is a joke for a variety of reasons (lack of funding, gentrification etc) and I don't think highschool performance represents how well a person does at all given how many different circumstances can affect that at a young age.
Second, 'missing too much work' in America can mean things such as 'taking time off because you're sick' or 'having to deal with familial emergencies', all of which many jobs do not at all allow any leeway in.
The person in the article made multiple efforts and worked hard to try and get a better job/life for his family. The fact that you immediately isolate out the things he's had to deal with make me wonder if you've experienced poverty or had to deal with shitty jobs in the past.
A career with similar average salary would be teaching. Four year tuition is an average of 25k in state and 41k out of state.[0]
Welding school is typically 5k to 15k [1] and takes two years or less. Despite how things played out for the particular case covered by this author, there is a good argument for welding. It may not make you rich. However, if you don't like the traditional college route, then welding and similar trades offer comparatively good pay/training trade-off.
* https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/average-cost-of-c...
* https://education.costhelper.com/welding-school.html
Welding school is typically 5k to 15k [1] and takes two years or less. Despite how things played out for the particular case covered by this author, there is a good argument for welding. It may not make you rich. However, if you don't like the traditional college route, then welding and similar trades offer comparatively good pay/training trade-off.
* https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/average-cost-of-c...
* https://education.costhelper.com/welding-school.html
Paying for welding school is just one way you can go. Apprenticeships will pay for you to go while paying you. Also there's non union options where the company teaches you while paying you. If you think about it, with the proper guidance and motivation it's not impossible to do both, learn the trade and take a night class or online course with your community college a term at the same time. It's really unfortunate how the trades were looked down upon in the past. I remember in high school it wasn't even an option since all the adults would kind of hide that option from students since it wasn't what "smart" people did.
Seems like the biggest problem facing this guy was English class and math class — not learning to weld.
No particular reason we should be teaching welding at a college as opposed to an actual trade school. Tradesmen should not be held up by a need to analyze “The Purple Letter” or “Sir Gatsby & The Green Knight”.
No particular reason we should be teaching welding at a college as opposed to an actual trade school. Tradesmen should not be held up by a need to analyze “The Purple Letter” or “Sir Gatsby & The Green Knight”.
Let's not forget such basics as "showing up on-time".
Not something taught at the more advanced educational institutions in the US :)
One of the other nice things about welding - while it may not make you rich - is that you can do it to some degree almost your entire life. It's the same with a lot of trade skills.
I'm a software engineer - that is what I know, and what I do. But I'm already above the "age ceiling" that we all know exists - but somehow (maybe due to the fact that I keep my skills current?) I have stayed employed and haven't been subjected (to my knowledge) to not being hired because of my age. I'm also not in SV or any other "high earning" area, and I like small "mom-n-pop" vs large established companies (with all the politics and other junk) - so I've never earned 6 figs - nor will I likely ever. But what I do earn pays my bills and keeps a roof over my head, and allows for entertainment for me and my family.
For now.
But someday that won't be there. Then what? Well - I intend to work until I die - that is, code forever. I know there are plenty of software engineers out there much older than I am who are still employed. So maybe it isn't as bleak as I think. But I do know this: When I am not employed, I can't just "go around the neighborhood" or "advertise on craigslist" or "hang out a shingle" that says "Got a broken fence? I can weld it for ya! Call me @ xxx..."
Which is something tradespeople can almost always do. In their "retirement years" they can become handypersons, do side-jobs welding or carpentry, or maybe simple auto repairs (or even more complex ones if they have the tools and strength left). Plumbing and electrical isn't out of the question either. They may not make bank, but they likely won't starve, either.
For myself? I'm not sure what I could do. One thing I do know I can do - just not well enough to be employed at it - is weld. I can also use a hammer, saw, plane, whatever - I do have some wood and metal shop skills. I also work on my own automobiles. Whether I could convince someone else to let me fix their issues - well, that's just some marketing and hopefully doing it right for them (just hand me that grinder and paint - I'm no tig stacked-dimes artist).
So there's that to be said about the trades - that it is something that can be done to keep some form of food on the table, even if it's just helping out neighbors for a few dollars. Nobody wants to hire an aging software engineer to code up a simple website or something like that any longer it seems. Those older SWEs typically find their gigs maintaining aging and creaking software in a language nobody uses any longer (and fortunately for me, I do have skills in Perl, VB3 thru 6, classic ASP, some COBOL - and it seems PHP may be headed that way too).
I'm a software engineer - that is what I know, and what I do. But I'm already above the "age ceiling" that we all know exists - but somehow (maybe due to the fact that I keep my skills current?) I have stayed employed and haven't been subjected (to my knowledge) to not being hired because of my age. I'm also not in SV or any other "high earning" area, and I like small "mom-n-pop" vs large established companies (with all the politics and other junk) - so I've never earned 6 figs - nor will I likely ever. But what I do earn pays my bills and keeps a roof over my head, and allows for entertainment for me and my family.
For now.
But someday that won't be there. Then what? Well - I intend to work until I die - that is, code forever. I know there are plenty of software engineers out there much older than I am who are still employed. So maybe it isn't as bleak as I think. But I do know this: When I am not employed, I can't just "go around the neighborhood" or "advertise on craigslist" or "hang out a shingle" that says "Got a broken fence? I can weld it for ya! Call me @ xxx..."
Which is something tradespeople can almost always do. In their "retirement years" they can become handypersons, do side-jobs welding or carpentry, or maybe simple auto repairs (or even more complex ones if they have the tools and strength left). Plumbing and electrical isn't out of the question either. They may not make bank, but they likely won't starve, either.
For myself? I'm not sure what I could do. One thing I do know I can do - just not well enough to be employed at it - is weld. I can also use a hammer, saw, plane, whatever - I do have some wood and metal shop skills. I also work on my own automobiles. Whether I could convince someone else to let me fix their issues - well, that's just some marketing and hopefully doing it right for them (just hand me that grinder and paint - I'm no tig stacked-dimes artist).
So there's that to be said about the trades - that it is something that can be done to keep some form of food on the table, even if it's just helping out neighbors for a few dollars. Nobody wants to hire an aging software engineer to code up a simple website or something like that any longer it seems. Those older SWEs typically find their gigs maintaining aging and creaking software in a language nobody uses any longer (and fortunately for me, I do have skills in Perl, VB3 thru 6, classic ASP, some COBOL - and it seems PHP may be headed that way too).
I have worked in a few startups and there are lots of old software guys. The biggest reason why there tend to be fewer of them is because most old software engineers used to be young software engineers, which meant they had access to obscene amounts of capital via their incomes, and thus exited from 'wage earner' to 'full-time investor'. The only old software engineers tend to be those that didn't use their capital wisely (or didn't care to) or that went through divorce or other financial trauma.
> When I am not employed, I can't just "go around the neighborhood" or "advertise on craigslist" or "hang out a shingle" that says "Got a broken fence? I can weld it for ya! Call me @ xxx..."
Also... I have no idea why you think you can't do this. Before I went to college for computer science, I did exactly this, and made quite a bit of money. But, I think this goes to what I said above... some people are aggressive with their skills and money and you tend to not find them at work.
> When I am not employed, I can't just "go around the neighborhood" or "advertise on craigslist" or "hang out a shingle" that says "Got a broken fence? I can weld it for ya! Call me @ xxx..."
Also... I have no idea why you think you can't do this. Before I went to college for computer science, I did exactly this, and made quite a bit of money. But, I think this goes to what I said above... some people are aggressive with their skills and money and you tend to not find them at work.
When I was in grad school I made extra money on the side making/maintaining websites and apps for small businesses in the area. I generally charged between $35 and $50 an hour. This was in California, so I image the hourly rate would be lower in a low COL area.
For me I have a retirement plan that is maxed out. I plan to keep busy in retirement, but I'll be working for myself. I plan to buy a better welder and some days I'll make a model of some weird thing that catches my interest. Other days I'll stay inside and write some code. At nights I'll practice piano, if I'm lucky I'll advance to the point where I sound okay.
Today software puts food on the table.
Today software puts food on the table.
I think you've got your head on straight, although it's probably best to think of the old-programmer problem as a kind of half life. Every year, some percentage of the remaining ones drop out, often through no fault of their own.
The main thing is to panic now instead of panic later. Ease into a Plan B before it's a dire necessity.
The main thing is to panic now instead of panic later. Ease into a Plan B before it's a dire necessity.
That is an interesting take on it I haven't seen elsewhere in this thread!
And I'm with ya, "grinder and paint makes me the welder I ain't"
And I'm with ya, "grinder and paint makes me the welder I ain't"
$25,000 is the total cost for in state including room and board, fees, etc. Tuition only is $9,970.
The unspoken claim here is that if he'd gone to college and pursued a liberal arts degree that he'd be better off now. The evidence in the article however says the opposite. He'd have even more debt and even lower prospects after failing to complete that degree.
I don't think that's the claim at all; Rather that there is a common but unrealistic, if not downright dishonest, narrative about opportunity and working class jobs and it is doing a disservice to people. It's also plausibly a tool for people in other economic sectors to pretend any problems these people have are "their own fault".
I think that thesis is pretty defensible. Clearly a liberal arts, or for that matter professional, degree isn't for everyone. On the other hand, pretending that some sort of idealized working class living exists in the US today for anyone who just wants it enough and will work hard is disingenuous at best. There has been a lot of cynically dishonest political rhetoric around these topics in recent decades.
I think that thesis is pretty defensible. Clearly a liberal arts, or for that matter professional, degree isn't for everyone. On the other hand, pretending that some sort of idealized working class living exists in the US today for anyone who just wants it enough and will work hard is disingenuous at best. There has been a lot of cynically dishonest political rhetoric around these topics in recent decades.
The claim is very much not that he should have gotten a different degree, but that there is no decent path to upward mobility for this seemingly decent person (or at least welding is not that path).
Some have been arguing that skilled trades are the answer to those who are facing a lack of opportunity, this looks in depth at how one person's attempt to join the skilled trades went (poorly) and also looks at statistics for welders generally and shows that it's a mixed bag.
Some have been arguing that skilled trades are the answer to those who are facing a lack of opportunity, this looks in depth at how one person's attempt to join the skilled trades went (poorly) and also looks at statistics for welders generally and shows that it's a mixed bag.
Maybe I missed that part of the article where it was a direct comparison of welding to a liberal arts degree outside of the politician comparing philosophy to welding. Philosophers make more money than biochemists, FYI. What are your sources about the opposite occurring? If one goes to an instate school s/he can do fairly well with a liberal arts degree.
It's clear he doesn't do well in traditional liberal arts subjects. The question here isn't really liberal arts vs welding. It's that the narrative for a long time had been that college for everyone is a solution. For those students who will do well there, it is a solution. But it's not a good idea for everyone.
While it's true welders aren't rich, the question is actually how to provide education resources to allow everyone to see succeed to their ability, without making your parents' wealth the biggest factor. I think it's clear that vocational education is a part of this, and that college for all is not.
While it's true welders aren't rich, the question is actually how to provide education resources to allow everyone to see succeed to their ability, without making your parents' wealth the biggest factor. I think it's clear that vocational education is a part of this, and that college for all is not.
Oh, that's a completely different discussion altogether! I agree with you though.
People think welders regularly make six figures? Uhhh... I've been looking extensively at manufacturing positions lately because I'm helping a friend in his job search. All the welding ones I've seen in my area that have a salary listed pay around $28k-$38k (IIRC). Those jobs typically have benefits.
So much misinformation around anything to do with pay, don't believe anything you hear, I've heard some really outlandish numbers quoted from a variety of places. The BLS (https://www.bls.gov/ooh/) is probably the most accurate source of information you'll get. (Quoted in TFA)
>Its premise was that in rural Ohio, there was such a shortage of skilled tradespeople that employers were regularly hiring welders at salaries of $150,000 a year and up.
So because In-And-Out pays managers $160,000 a year [1] we should conclude that fast food is (in general) a highly paid occupation?
[1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/nation-now/2018/01/25/n...
So much misinformation around anything to do with pay, don't believe anything you hear, I've heard some really outlandish numbers quoted from a variety of places. The BLS (https://www.bls.gov/ooh/) is probably the most accurate source of information you'll get. (Quoted in TFA)
>Its premise was that in rural Ohio, there was such a shortage of skilled tradespeople that employers were regularly hiring welders at salaries of $150,000 a year and up.
So because In-And-Out pays managers $160,000 a year [1] we should conclude that fast food is (in general) a highly paid occupation?
[1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/nation-now/2018/01/25/n...
Some welders make good money. If you can weld the I-Beams of a 80 story sky scrapper you will make good money. (I'm told most construction workers hit a wall at about the 30th floor and will not work on anything higher). If you can weld while wearing scuba gear you make good money- you also get a full pension at 40 when you are forced to retire because of the wear it does on the body. There are a few other areas where welding pays good money - but they pay good money because so few welders can do them.
The salaries of welders does seem a bit over-hyped. That said, there are people out there working in the trades making decent money. I have a couple of friends that went to school to be electrical lineman and both are making close to 6 figures now with minimal student loans. I think it just requires a little bit of research and perhaps the help of a decent high school career counselor.
Average salary of electrical lineman: https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/lineman-sal...
Average salary of electrical lineman: https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/lineman-sal...
If you start off as an electrician, you don't have to remain an electrician forever. You can move up to managing other electricians. You can become a general contractor and manage multiple trades. You can become a real estate developer and manage your own custom or spec builds.
Welding, electric, plumbing, roofing - that's just the skill you start with, but entrepreneurship in these fields is alive and well, and the sky's the limit for ambitious people.
The high paid welders are working on off shore oil rigs and have underwater certifications: https://bizfluent.com/info-12034815-average-salary-oil-rig-w...
Linemen in PHX make upwards of 95k plus shit loads of overtime.
Yeah, but you'd have to work for APS or SRP...That's a hard pass for me.
Linemen were some of the highest compensated employees at McMurdo Station, Antarctica when I was there a couple years ago.
I think a high wage also requires the same things it does in other professions - flexibility and willingness to chase opportunities.
If you're a welder in a small mid-west town with no obvious industry, your prospects are going to suck. If you're willing to go to the oil patch for a few years, you could do really well.
If you're a welder in a small mid-west town with no obvious industry, your prospects are going to suck. If you're willing to go to the oil patch for a few years, you could do really well.
If they went to school to be an electrical lineman and incurred any student debt to do so then they already failed...
You can join the IBEW as an apprentice, get work experience, an education, and get paid...no student loans required.
I'm not sure how your friend did it, but they should have done more research...
You can join the IBEW as an apprentice, get work experience, an education, and get paid...no student loans required.
I'm not sure how your friend did it, but they should have done more research...
Looking at these official stats, median for plumbers is $54K per year, which is not such a bad money for a job that requires no school, just on-job training. Little bit less for carpenters, floor installers and masonry and construction workers, etc. But we need to take into account that none of them requires any special education, it's on-job training only, so you start your life with no debts which gives you a big head start and a lot of freedom. Unlike welders they also, with a bit of entrepreneurship, can expect one day to run their own businesses and earn more. Also, these days very important thing to think of, AI and robots will not replace plumbers or tile layers anytime soon. People working in maintenance will probably be the last to be replaced, if ever.
> median for plumbers is $54K per year, which is not such a bad money for a job that requires no school, just on-job training.
Not only is it not bad, it's higher than the median salary of many college graduates, even of highly accredited known public schools.
Not only is it not bad, it's higher than the median salary of many college graduates, even of highly accredited known public schools.
There are other opportunity costs of trades, such as increased risk of morbidity and mortality due to all the driving/type of work/materials worked with, and working away from home. If one can land a well paying desk job, then currently it still has a greater value proposition, and who wants to be real and tell their child that they probably won't make it into the ranks of a well paying desk job?
> who wants to be real and tell their child that they probably won't make it into the ranks of a well paying desk job?
Likely the successful tradesmen who has instilled a sense of worth in "dirty jobs" and working final product.
Anecdotally, I have some college educated friends that describe the majority of their desk jobs as tedious, repetitive, and duplicative data entry; A plumber or welder's job certainly has comparatively longer term viability.
Likely the successful tradesmen who has instilled a sense of worth in "dirty jobs" and working final product.
Anecdotally, I have some college educated friends that describe the majority of their desk jobs as tedious, repetitive, and duplicative data entry; A plumber or welder's job certainly has comparatively longer term viability.
After a year and a half, Orry was fired for missing too many days of work...
Orry had been working hard for five years...
Isn't there some contradiction in these two statements?
Orry had been working hard for five years...
Isn't there some contradiction in these two statements?
Not necessarily. I worked at a company where if you missed two days of work without calling in to let them know, you were fired. You could stretch that to about 5 days if you always called in.
I'm not making a judgement as to whether those are reasonable terms, only pointing out that such jobs exist, and could be similar where this individual worked there.
I'm not making a judgement as to whether those are reasonable terms, only pointing out that such jobs exist, and could be similar where this individual worked there.
We don't know if he was hungover, ill, injured, taking care of a loved one, or "just depressed". So no, not necessarily.
I think you may have missed something in the article. It does not state that the five years of work had been continuous or at the same location. It mentions multiple places they worked and that they were fired from multiple positions.
[deleted]
You can be fired for missing too many days of work for a legitimate illness.
I've been taking welding classes at my local community college (Washtenaw CC, just down the road from University of Michigan) around my day job as a controls engineer in the auto industry. This program produces people who win national welding competitions on a regular basis, but they're very open that you don't have to complete the entire thing. The instructor for my summer blueprint welding class kept talking about open jobs in the region and how to get into it -- what certs you needed and what skills to practice. Crappy jobs that didn't require certs paid $20/hr starting + benefits. A couple of years in and with several certs under your belt in a union -- pipefitters or ironworkers -- you could be making north of $40/hr. That doesn't sound high-paying, but many of the people at that level are nomadic, coming into a plant being built and working 12 hrs/day 6 or 7 days a week. Which brings me to my main point -- the statistics on this are heavily skewed. The guy that does that nomadic thing spends some number of months on until he quits and takes 3 months off. Other guys with no certs make money welding art or fixing simple things (a much, much larger category). The BLS numbers aren't a question of what you can make, they're a question of what the distribution looks like.
Most people who go on about "the trades", I find, it's unlikely they ever personally worked them. Maybe their Father's. I doubt Marco Rubio has ever touched a hammer, let alone worked as a real laborer.
As for me, going to college was absolutley the thing that really changed my life course.
I grew up on a dairy farm in northern New York. Milked cows until I was 18 and then my dad sold the farm. So I joined the Navy. I did that for 6 years and then when I was about to get out in 2002, I can still remember an officer (you know, a guy with a degree) explaining to me that I was making this huge mistake getting out. Because I was successful in the Navy. Already an E6/FC1. My career was made.
So I asked him, if I'm successful on the inside, what makes you think I cant be successful on the outside? So I got a lot of reasons. It was a good pitch. He even talked to me about getting an associate's at the local college. I was almost there anyway, just a couple classes and I'd be done. At the end, he questioned if Bard, a private liberal arts school I was accepted to, was even accredited.
That's when I knew, not only did he not care, but he would seek to harm my potential future growth just for some metric.
Anyway, so I did go to Bard college. Graduated with a degree in economics, now I'm the CTO / CPO of a middle market company (7 or so years after graduating college).
Had I of stayed, I could have done other blue jobs on the outside someday. I know a guy who works on powerlines in Texas. Says he likes his job. Takes advil like its candy. It pays the bills.
My wife and I have saved a lot, even with two kids. Last year, after our company consummated its sale to a PE company, we've been able to buy our own house in Brooklyn.
If I became a truck driver like my dad did after the sale of the farm, I'm not sure I'd be in the same place today - but it's possible I suppose.
My brother is in the trades. Hes a master plumber and runs his own plumbing company. He's also been successful. His back is also totally shot.
As for me, going to college was absolutley the thing that really changed my life course.
I grew up on a dairy farm in northern New York. Milked cows until I was 18 and then my dad sold the farm. So I joined the Navy. I did that for 6 years and then when I was about to get out in 2002, I can still remember an officer (you know, a guy with a degree) explaining to me that I was making this huge mistake getting out. Because I was successful in the Navy. Already an E6/FC1. My career was made.
So I asked him, if I'm successful on the inside, what makes you think I cant be successful on the outside? So I got a lot of reasons. It was a good pitch. He even talked to me about getting an associate's at the local college. I was almost there anyway, just a couple classes and I'd be done. At the end, he questioned if Bard, a private liberal arts school I was accepted to, was even accredited.
That's when I knew, not only did he not care, but he would seek to harm my potential future growth just for some metric.
Anyway, so I did go to Bard college. Graduated with a degree in economics, now I'm the CTO / CPO of a middle market company (7 or so years after graduating college).
Had I of stayed, I could have done other blue jobs on the outside someday. I know a guy who works on powerlines in Texas. Says he likes his job. Takes advil like its candy. It pays the bills.
My wife and I have saved a lot, even with two kids. Last year, after our company consummated its sale to a PE company, we've been able to buy our own house in Brooklyn.
If I became a truck driver like my dad did after the sale of the farm, I'm not sure I'd be in the same place today - but it's possible I suppose.
My brother is in the trades. Hes a master plumber and runs his own plumbing company. He's also been successful. His back is also totally shot.
Only someone doing dangerous and rare types of welding, such as underwater welding, will make a ton of money. The trade-off is that it is extremely dangerous, and life expectancy is well below average.
Or incredibly arduous and you need to train for years while your actual working life is 10 years or so. I know metalworkers who can't pick up their tools any more because of the damage their bodies have sustained from their work.
I suspect a civilian contractor on site in places Afghanistan and other high risk countries make a lot more.
During IRAQ II I saw a local add (Uk) offering £40K tax free for a basic car mechanic going out to Iraq to presumably work for the Military or PMC
During IRAQ II I saw a local add (Uk) offering £40K tax free for a basic car mechanic going out to Iraq to presumably work for the Military or PMC
I drove a truck in Iraq for "$52k/year" and came home after a little over four months when I made ~$40k -- it was all in the overtime.
Like a £40K sign on bonus to relocate to Iraq? Or £40K per annum? Because the latter seems low.
www.totaljobs.com says an average car mechanic gets about 32K in the UK. That's about 24K take home. 40K vs 24K is a 53% increase in salary.
That's against 52K on glassdoor for being a military officer. But I am pretty sure that 52K is taxable itself so the actual different is smaller.
That's against 52K on glassdoor for being a military officer. But I am pretty sure that 52K is taxable itself so the actual different is smaller.
Not an apples to apples comparison, but my uncle got paid 250k/year USD to drive a big rig in Iraq for the US military. He knows Arabic and can "fit in", though. You can get paid a lot more for taking on a lot more risk, even if you don't have particularly unique or exceptional skills.
Yes this wasn't an experienced time served mechanic job this was basic shop skills.
What country are you talking about? Also, citation needed. Underwater welding requires a very specific skill set; I can imagine the sort of people who go in to it will be daredevils but it would probably be illegal to put them in situations where the risk was bad enough to say "well below average". Plus, they are probably quite important; companies wouldn't want to risk them.
I know several underwater welders, and several more folks in training programs to become one. They are not daredevils. They tend to be very methodical, very careful professionals who are above average at evaluating risk. Daredevils are not tolerated, because daredevils either screw up (lots of money lost), get killed (lots of paperwork) or get someone else killed (bad).
They do seem to make a lot of money.
They do seem to make a lot of money.
Not just bad situations like getting killed on the job, but "Hazard Pay" in the case of underwater welding, prolonged exposure to being under pressure has shown to cause heart problems.
I've seen a few people I've grown up with try doing skilled trades.
First, they seem to ignore that there is still education needed. And most people who claimed they were going skilled trades ended up doing low skilled manual labor.
And second, they overvalue their education. I've had people claim their skills were good enough to call them an engineer. (But if you give them a real world engineering question, they don't make an attempt)
Third, I've seen fantastic technicians, able to solder a board-mount LED by hand saved us literally thousands of dollars. There is value here, but this person was physically talented from decades of experience.
First, they seem to ignore that there is still education needed. And most people who claimed they were going skilled trades ended up doing low skilled manual labor.
And second, they overvalue their education. I've had people claim their skills were good enough to call them an engineer. (But if you give them a real world engineering question, they don't make an attempt)
Third, I've seen fantastic technicians, able to solder a board-mount LED by hand saved us literally thousands of dollars. There is value here, but this person was physically talented from decades of experience.
For a couple of semesters I roomed with a guy taking an electrical engineering technician course at a college while I was taking an electrical engineering degree at a university.
We were both surprised at how similar many of our courses were. The big difference was that the standards for pass/fail were lower at his, and that he didn't have any of the 300 or 400 level courses where all the interesting stuff was IMO. And I didn't have any of the hands on courses that was the interesting stuff in his opinion. He had an advanced soldering course. I had an "optional" 3 hour tutorial in it -- it was optional in the sense that you didn't have to attend, but you'd fail your labs if you couldn't solder...
We were both surprised at how similar many of our courses were. The big difference was that the standards for pass/fail were lower at his, and that he didn't have any of the 300 or 400 level courses where all the interesting stuff was IMO. And I didn't have any of the hands on courses that was the interesting stuff in his opinion. He had an advanced soldering course. I had an "optional" 3 hour tutorial in it -- it was optional in the sense that you didn't have to attend, but you'd fail your labs if you couldn't solder...
And that's where you have this divide of people who have an EE degree but can't assemble their own designs to save their lives, and those with just a technical background who may struggle to design and understand their own circuits, but who can build them to expert level standards.
There are plenty in the middle who can do both - and more than a few of them with such knowledge have never take a college or university course in their life.
You see the same thing with software engineering sometimes - the CompSci graduate who can't code their way out of a wet paper bag even if given a github of fizzbuzz, versus the person who never went to college yet makes 6-figs in SV hacking on code (yet doesn't have the "book understanding" of data structures or algorithms).
...and tons of people in between those who can combine both.
Slap 'em together with similar people in the trades - well, you'll find yourself a myriad of people at all levels and understanding of "mechatronics" and/or robotics and such.
It is quite likely that your roommate could learn what you learned - and you could (or have) learned what he knew. It ultimately all depends on having the motivation and desire to pursue it.
Where you might have the advantage is that you could probably pick up his skills from online resources and simple practice projects or whatnot. He would probably struggle to do the same, without actually going into debt and attending some kind of university course(s). Some of it can be approximated with self-study and some online MOOC training, but not all of it, unfortunately - and he wouldn't have the "piece of paper" at the end.
There are plenty in the middle who can do both - and more than a few of them with such knowledge have never take a college or university course in their life.
You see the same thing with software engineering sometimes - the CompSci graduate who can't code their way out of a wet paper bag even if given a github of fizzbuzz, versus the person who never went to college yet makes 6-figs in SV hacking on code (yet doesn't have the "book understanding" of data structures or algorithms).
...and tons of people in between those who can combine both.
Slap 'em together with similar people in the trades - well, you'll find yourself a myriad of people at all levels and understanding of "mechatronics" and/or robotics and such.
It is quite likely that your roommate could learn what you learned - and you could (or have) learned what he knew. It ultimately all depends on having the motivation and desire to pursue it.
Where you might have the advantage is that you could probably pick up his skills from online resources and simple practice projects or whatnot. He would probably struggle to do the same, without actually going into debt and attending some kind of university course(s). Some of it can be approximated with self-study and some online MOOC training, but not all of it, unfortunately - and he wouldn't have the "piece of paper" at the end.
solder a board-mount LED by hand ... physically talented from decades of experience
These days most people use ovens and solder paste with laser cut stencils, which make this stuff mostly about the tedium of ordering, identifying and placing components on the board with tweezers. The solder self-corrects. There is thus little physical skill required in SMT style soldering, at least at moderate component sizes.
Source: I trained my company from scratch to the point where we can turn over new prototype quantity boards in 2-3 days (including design, fab, receipt, assembly). Nobody has decades of experience.
These days most people use ovens and solder paste with laser cut stencils, which make this stuff mostly about the tedium of ordering, identifying and placing components on the board with tweezers. The solder self-corrects. There is thus little physical skill required in SMT style soldering, at least at moderate component sizes.
Source: I trained my company from scratch to the point where we can turn over new prototype quantity boards in 2-3 days (including design, fab, receipt, assembly). Nobody has decades of experience.
> Welders at the 90th percentile of income for the profession, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, earn $63,000 a year before taxes. Those are, statistically, the top earners, and they are usually expert welders with decades of experience.
I know one anecdote doesn't mean much, but I have two friends who are making around $100k/year as stick welders (boiler type work) in the New Jersey area. They do more than just weld though - I'd say that 50% of their job is actually welding and the other 50% is miscellaneous boiler repair work.
One of them has only been doing it for about 4 years, after going to a two year school.
My other friend is making around $80k/year as a "burner mechanic" with absolutely no schooling at all. His only prior experience was that he was a DirecTV installer. He is very mechanically inclined though.
The key is getting into one of those companies that does work at state locations - I'm not sure exactly how this all works, but it's something like "if you're working on a state site, you have to get paid the prevailing wage", which is usually very high. Couple that with overtime and you'll see welders making $80+ an hour.
I'm sure there are welders who make far less, but that's probably the case with any industry. My friends are probably at a gig equivalent to FAANG in the software world.
I know one anecdote doesn't mean much, but I have two friends who are making around $100k/year as stick welders (boiler type work) in the New Jersey area. They do more than just weld though - I'd say that 50% of their job is actually welding and the other 50% is miscellaneous boiler repair work.
One of them has only been doing it for about 4 years, after going to a two year school.
My other friend is making around $80k/year as a "burner mechanic" with absolutely no schooling at all. His only prior experience was that he was a DirecTV installer. He is very mechanically inclined though.
The key is getting into one of those companies that does work at state locations - I'm not sure exactly how this all works, but it's something like "if you're working on a state site, you have to get paid the prevailing wage", which is usually very high. Couple that with overtime and you'll see welders making $80+ an hour.
I'm sure there are welders who make far less, but that's probably the case with any industry. My friends are probably at a gig equivalent to FAANG in the software world.
In fairness, where I live in flyover country, people are pretty realistic about how much money you can get as a welder. Or carpenter. Or plumber. Or what have you. They are relatively good jobs, for around here. But everyone knows you're not gonna make six figures being a welder. Not even close. (Maybe if you're working on a pipeline, that's underwater, but even that's temporary.)
The way you make money as a welder is the same as every other trade
a) Be willing to do it in conditions nobody else wants to.
b) own a business and employ other people who do it.
a) Be willing to do it in conditions nobody else wants to.
b) own a business and employ other people who do it.
Just today the AC unit at our house sprung a leak. Due to California's laws you have to replace old ACs with more efficient ones. In the middle of the summer installation costs run 3-10k. Instead I did it my self and just paid a welder to connect the copper tubes. He worked about an hour and I paid him $500.
It's actually even worse than this. I'm on the fringes of a community that does a lot of metal art, so I know a few welders who make good (but not great) money doing welding. But they all are artists, and they all have college degrees, and couldn't attract the art contracts they do without their college pedigree. It's disingenuous to say "Welding makes good money" and "Welding doesn't require a college degree" in the same breath, because many of the higher-income welders actually do have college degrees which increase their income, which skews the statistics.
There are three people I know who weld but don't make much money. One makes most of her money on banking software, and the other two don't have degrees.
There are three people I know who weld but don't make much money. One makes most of her money on banking software, and the other two don't have degrees.
I was hearing this back around 2004-2005 that welders could make $150k if they take this remote oil pipeline jobs and "all your expenses are paid for while you're out in the field".
I heard a lot of people talk about taking these jobs but they never seemed to exist.
I heard a lot of people talk about taking these jobs but they never seemed to exist.
Does anyone with deep experience within welding have any pro tips on fixture design? Even willing to do some consulting? We are tackling this at the moment and getting some grossly conflicting inputs from manual welders, automated welding equipment suppliers, and other sources. Basically we want to produce precise and repeatable assemblies mainly out of 304 beam stock, but with a view toward validating precision before investing in automation we've become aware that fixture design will be critical, yet lack experience. Our initial prototype fixture already functions successfully with pneumatic work holding, but has numerous design flaws.
White collar people LOVE recommending blue collar jobs. It's very similar to the FB execs who cash out and then suddenly say talk about how bad FB is.
"Don't do what I did to get rich, it's not a good idea."
"Don't do what I did to get rich, it's not a good idea."
Probably because many of us dream about blue collar work at our desks.
Just like how many of them dream of white collar work at their mine/construction site/shop. The difference being is that when they find some white collar work, they no longer dream of blue collar work (because it sucks and kills you a day at a time).
It depends on what blue collar work you're talking about...I went blue collar (power plant operator)...obtained CS degree and got a job as a programmer...then after a year went back to blue collar...operations is more interesting to me, plus I get to be on my feet, moving around all shift...it suits me much more...plus the pay for an operator is >$140k in a rural area
If not college, though, your options are kind of limited.
Other (used-to-)pay-pretty-ok blue collar jobs are things like plumbers, electricians, and union telco work, if you can get it. Plumbing isn't too hard to pick up; I don't know if you need licensing for that (or why), other than a professional liability insurance policy of some kind. AFAIK there's still pretty good demand for plumbers and electricians, although I haven't done any kind of research on the market and expect it varies a lot by locale.
Other (used-to-)pay-pretty-ok blue collar jobs are things like plumbers, electricians, and union telco work, if you can get it. Plumbing isn't too hard to pick up; I don't know if you need licensing for that (or why), other than a professional liability insurance policy of some kind. AFAIK there's still pretty good demand for plumbers and electricians, although I haven't done any kind of research on the market and expect it varies a lot by locale.
Another frequently overlooked problem with the 'trade school' mantra is that women need jobs too - and I'm willing to wager that the prejudice women are going to face in a welding shop is going to be a lot higher the frequently cited problem of women in engineering.
Never mind if they try to hang out their shingle as a plumber or electrician. It'd be an interesting study to compare the number of calls that Charlie vs Charlene would get in that field, but I think we all know the answer.
Never mind if they try to hang out their shingle as a plumber or electrician. It'd be an interesting study to compare the number of calls that Charlie vs Charlene would get in that field, but I think we all know the answer.
My aunt owned and managed a welding shop for over 50 years. She'd disagree with most of what you wrote. The opportunity is there for people that want to work hard and learn. There is in fact a fairly good tradition supporting women in the trades, (in the US at least) especially during and after WWII. See "Rosie the Riveter" for example, which is where my aunt got her start.
This harkens to some of the points some other commenters have made in this thread. Earning $7/hour in 1970 for a welding job is equivalent of $95k/year in 2019 money.
Similarly, getting a start and sticking it out is just as difficult for women today as it was in the pre-war era. The post war period has been ingrained as the normal baseline in our collective imaginations, though it is anything but normal.
I am willing to wager that Rosie the Riveter isn't the norm for the US and if she or your aunt was trying to make it as a welder, they both will not find the supportive environment that existed post-war
Similarly, getting a start and sticking it out is just as difficult for women today as it was in the pre-war era. The post war period has been ingrained as the normal baseline in our collective imaginations, though it is anything but normal.
I am willing to wager that Rosie the Riveter isn't the norm for the US and if she or your aunt was trying to make it as a welder, they both will not find the supportive environment that existed post-war
After the men came home from the war, the first thing most of them wanted to see, is for Rosie the Riveter to be sent packing back to the kitchen, so that they could get their jobs back.
There are indeed women working trades, but not many of them. In Canada, for instance, they are 4.5% of the skilled trades workforce. [1]
[1] https://globalnews.ca/news/3823621/women-skilled-trades-manu...
There are indeed women working trades, but not many of them. In Canada, for instance, they are 4.5% of the skilled trades workforce. [1]
[1] https://globalnews.ca/news/3823621/women-skilled-trades-manu...
How is it a problem that women, for the most part, are not welders? Is it a problem that men are not nannies, for the most part? I think we all know what would happen if Bruno vs Betty got if each tried to hang out their shingle as a babysitter. Do you also fret about the prejudice that men face trying to find jobs in roles that are traditionally female?
>Another frequently overlooked problem with the 'trade school' mantra is that women need jobs too - and I'm willing to wager that the prejudice women are going to face in a welding shop is going to be a lot higher the frequently cited problem of women in engineering.
I suspect there is some truth to that however, I regularly see women with 'welder' listed on their dating profiles (mostly tinder, although I've seen 2 on Facebook dating app, within 15 miles of me, since it rolled out making matches in Indy yesterday) and personally I only know one male that welds for a living.
I see plenty of female automotive techs/mechanics around too. I think out of my last dozen oil changes there has been at least 1 woman in the bays working and as many as at least 3 and my last brake job was a woman (she called me out to do the 'well we could machine your rotors butttt...).
I'm sure there's a lot of sexual harassment and general unpleasantness still there in a random shop but I feel like there are a lot more 20-40ish women in these sorts of jobs than there were even a decade ago. Indianapolis could be somewhat of an outlier though as we have a huge FFA presence here and in surrounding towns as well as a few trade schools that just do automotive, welding and electrician training.
What I've never seen though is any women doing HVAC or plumbing. One would think women would be more inclined towards plumbing given they are generally smaller and can fit in those tight spaces better, instead in my experience I've generally seen plumbers that are built like me, like a refrigerator, grumbling and groaning while they try and snake their way under a sink or behind a toilet.
I suspect there is some truth to that however, I regularly see women with 'welder' listed on their dating profiles (mostly tinder, although I've seen 2 on Facebook dating app, within 15 miles of me, since it rolled out making matches in Indy yesterday) and personally I only know one male that welds for a living.
I see plenty of female automotive techs/mechanics around too. I think out of my last dozen oil changes there has been at least 1 woman in the bays working and as many as at least 3 and my last brake job was a woman (she called me out to do the 'well we could machine your rotors butttt...).
I'm sure there's a lot of sexual harassment and general unpleasantness still there in a random shop but I feel like there are a lot more 20-40ish women in these sorts of jobs than there were even a decade ago. Indianapolis could be somewhat of an outlier though as we have a huge FFA presence here and in surrounding towns as well as a few trade schools that just do automotive, welding and electrician training.
What I've never seen though is any women doing HVAC or plumbing. One would think women would be more inclined towards plumbing given they are generally smaller and can fit in those tight spaces better, instead in my experience I've generally seen plumbers that are built like me, like a refrigerator, grumbling and groaning while they try and snake their way under a sink or behind a toilet.
This article surprised me by how biased and bad it is.
And although it claims the "myth" started in 2015, I started to hear about this (and I am from Brazil, not US even) around 2005 or so.
I finished college around 2009, and know from personal experience, that the "politicians" the article is against, are saying the truth, I ended college with huge debts, didn't got any decent jobs, and right now I work in a field not related to what I learned in college, I finished paying the loans only last year, and will finally marry this year, and will live in a tiny cramped apartment with my wife, with no vehicle.
The friends I had at high school, the ones that went to college, are in similar situations... But the ones that went to trade school, all of them own their own house, are married with kids, own multiple vehicles...
So I have no idea where the idea that this stuff is a "myth" came from.
And I am sorry of how much I belittled a friend in high school, when he said he would not go to college, and go learn welding and how to operate CNC machines... Back then all "adults" convinced me he was going to be low class and poor, and that I should aim to enter a pretigious university. That guy while I was still in college, had bought the motorcycle of his dreams. When I finished college, he was paying for his house. When I was strugglign to find jobs, in part because everyone wanted experience instead of education, and thus I was 5 years older with zero experience compared to my competitors (either 18 year old guys with lots of energy, or people same age as me, that skipped college but had 5 years of experience on the job), he was complaining of how many job offers he had to turn down...
And although it claims the "myth" started in 2015, I started to hear about this (and I am from Brazil, not US even) around 2005 or so.
I finished college around 2009, and know from personal experience, that the "politicians" the article is against, are saying the truth, I ended college with huge debts, didn't got any decent jobs, and right now I work in a field not related to what I learned in college, I finished paying the loans only last year, and will finally marry this year, and will live in a tiny cramped apartment with my wife, with no vehicle.
The friends I had at high school, the ones that went to college, are in similar situations... But the ones that went to trade school, all of them own their own house, are married with kids, own multiple vehicles...
So I have no idea where the idea that this stuff is a "myth" came from.
And I am sorry of how much I belittled a friend in high school, when he said he would not go to college, and go learn welding and how to operate CNC machines... Back then all "adults" convinced me he was going to be low class and poor, and that I should aim to enter a pretigious university. That guy while I was still in college, had bought the motorcycle of his dreams. When I finished college, he was paying for his house. When I was strugglign to find jobs, in part because everyone wanted experience instead of education, and thus I was 5 years older with zero experience compared to my competitors (either 18 year old guys with lots of energy, or people same age as me, that skipped college but had 5 years of experience on the job), he was complaining of how many job offers he had to turn down...
This is so true. Every comment I see on HN regarding welding paints it as the counterpoint example to a college education/getting a white-collar job. I have a brother who gets worked to the bone welding for about $15 an hour. He can get pretty good incentive for producing more than the hourly "expected" rate, but it's hard work! He welds I-beams and lifts between 20-60 pounds per beam, depending on the specs of the specific beams, all day every day that he works. He does somewhere on the order of 40-60 beams per hour. Between his job as a welder and my cushy job as a software developer (making twice as much) I would choose the cushy software developer job every time. Not sure I would be saying the same thing if I had gotten a liberal art degree, but I certainly wouldn't use welding as the prime example of a trade-school "easy way out" from going to college.
There is nothing wrong with vocational education. But the reality is that, on average, how well you do with college education largely depends on what degree you pursued and same is true with vocational education as well. If there is a lot of demand for your vocation, salaries will be higher regardless of whether it requires college degrees or not.
I know of two wealthy welders. The one lives in Northern Ontario, is technically pensioned but both the local steelmill (Sault Ste. Marie) and a large mining operation kept asking him to solve their 'unsolvable' problem, which he would do without much ado or noise. He would fix stuff while it was running because shutting down a smelter is very expensive, either through remote control (pantographs) or other trickery to get close to the welding spot.
The other is here in the Netherlands, works in off-shore and has gradually transited from welding to safety officer. He made a ton of money doing welding though (diver / welder) and has a lot of property that he rents out. He could retire anytime he wants (and is still < 40).
The other is here in the Netherlands, works in off-shore and has gradually transited from welding to safety officer. He made a ton of money doing welding though (diver / welder) and has a lot of property that he rents out. He could retire anytime he wants (and is still < 40).
I suppose what's called welder is not "Schweißer" in German, but a "Schlosser", which would be subdivided by application, and had a lot in common with a mechanic (a wrench is a "Schlüssel", literally a key, compare French "cle anglaise" - monkey wrench).
Welding would just be learned as part of the job, whether as plumber or mechanic, once upon a time even as electrician (who now doesn't even learn to solder).
I say "had", because the mechanic nowadays is taught mostly as a "Mechatroniker", since electronics have become ubiquitious in machines.
The secondary education systems differ from the US, I hear. Nevertheless, most training happens on the job, with one school day per week over 3 odd years in case of these jobs--which ammounts to 6 month of schooling. Pay starts at ca. 15 Eur after graduation (and is miserable, below minimum wage, for the apprenticeship). Several possibilities to diversify afterwards exist, but many slug along without going for e.g. technician or master studies. The exams can be taken out of school under certain limited conditions. etc. p. p.
"Schweißer" is not a registered apprenticeship, but qualification is offered and eventually necessary; job opportunities exist, almost solely through temp agencies, starting at ca 12 Eur; no publically indexed opportunity in Berlin. One adverisement mentions that up to 100 different welding techniques exist (need to be known, as they say) from once a mere five.
I'd imagine kinds of certificates in welding can be optained in crash courses. In contrast, professional-welder does not strike me as an entry level position, nor as a common job. I haven't met any, to say the least.
I do remember a special note about the welding jobs done on the Wendelstein-X project, mentioned in a podcast with the leader of the programm. That was followed by a note about a Swiss specialists detecting defects in custom coils, who was described like the master of an arcane art in the best tradition of swiss watchmakers. (check alternativlos.de if you understand .de)
Welding would just be learned as part of the job, whether as plumber or mechanic, once upon a time even as electrician (who now doesn't even learn to solder).
I say "had", because the mechanic nowadays is taught mostly as a "Mechatroniker", since electronics have become ubiquitious in machines.
The secondary education systems differ from the US, I hear. Nevertheless, most training happens on the job, with one school day per week over 3 odd years in case of these jobs--which ammounts to 6 month of schooling. Pay starts at ca. 15 Eur after graduation (and is miserable, below minimum wage, for the apprenticeship). Several possibilities to diversify afterwards exist, but many slug along without going for e.g. technician or master studies. The exams can be taken out of school under certain limited conditions. etc. p. p.
"Schweißer" is not a registered apprenticeship, but qualification is offered and eventually necessary; job opportunities exist, almost solely through temp agencies, starting at ca 12 Eur; no publically indexed opportunity in Berlin. One adverisement mentions that up to 100 different welding techniques exist (need to be known, as they say) from once a mere five.
I'd imagine kinds of certificates in welding can be optained in crash courses. In contrast, professional-welder does not strike me as an entry level position, nor as a common job. I haven't met any, to say the least.
I do remember a special note about the welding jobs done on the Wendelstein-X project, mentioned in a podcast with the leader of the programm. That was followed by a note about a Swiss specialists detecting defects in custom coils, who was described like the master of an arcane art in the best tradition of swiss watchmakers. (check alternativlos.de if you understand .de)
1st world to 1st world - doubtful.
3rd world to 1st - that gets more interesting. I recall a story about EU tunnel boring machines where the drilling head was welded together by a team flown in from south africa. Thought that was weird - that's a country with zero tunnel boring experience.
Bit more thinking later I realised...that's actually not a bad strategy. Throw some Euros down and get the top 0.1% of the skillset of a 3rd world country. Welding is welding and top 0.1% is pretty grand.
3rd world to 1st - that gets more interesting. I recall a story about EU tunnel boring machines where the drilling head was welded together by a team flown in from south africa. Thought that was weird - that's a country with zero tunnel boring experience.
Bit more thinking later I realised...that's actually not a bad strategy. Throw some Euros down and get the top 0.1% of the skillset of a 3rd world country. Welding is welding and top 0.1% is pretty grand.
I suspect the top 0.1% would realize that they are the cream of the crop and wouldn't be so easy or cheap to fly out by "throwing some Euros".
If there was any price differential between the best welders in these two countries, it would be rendered nil by the cost of flying and housing a team.
If there was any price differential between the best welders in these two countries, it would be rendered nil by the cost of flying and housing a team.
Skilled trades are still a good idea in the UK. I estimated that experienced self employed electricians could probably pull in $80-120k per year excluding office costs at 80% utilisation.
It's not huge money, but once you start factoring in that tax is much better for the self employed, costs of living, commute time etc it does look like a good deal. Even if you discount the estimate by 1/3 it still compares very favourably to most white collar careers.
It's not huge money, but once you start factoring in that tax is much better for the self employed, costs of living, commute time etc it does look like a good deal. Even if you discount the estimate by 1/3 it still compares very favourably to most white collar careers.
My take: the college-educated class (of which I am one) is feeling nervous, and started to spew negativity at the idea of trades or apprenticeship. The college (loan) industry is in for a decline, and is feeling defensive.
I don't recall ever hearing that welders were "wealthy", I heard (and continue to hear) that they can be middle-class. Which is something that some who took out big college loans to get a journalism degree, struggle to do.
I don't recall ever hearing that welders were "wealthy", I heard (and continue to hear) that they can be middle-class. Which is something that some who took out big college loans to get a journalism degree, struggle to do.
> it absolves us of our shared responsibility to address the reality of his limited economic prospects.
Why do I have a responsibility for someone else’s economic prospects? The man profiled in the story didn’t sound like he was a victim of anything I’m responsible for: I didn’t make him late for work so much he got fired. I didn’t ask him to get married and have two kids at age 21. There is a whole bunch of “not my problem” going on there.
I’m also not convinced only $30-40 per hour in a pretty cheap cost of living area is a bad wage. That’s much more than many degreed people working in the city make. Also the potential with welding is that he could start his own shop and be making some serious money. The national demand is huge. My dad is a retired precision machinist and his “side business” in his garage makes him more money than his job working with physics Nobel laureates at a major university ever did. Most of his business is contract work for universities and oil field tooling companies and he hires welders almost continually. Most welders he works with are at full capacity and can’t hire people fast enough. The problem is that many people that go into the trades are like the guy profiled in the story: unreliable, often losers, who don’t stick around very long. The good ones, the sky is pretty much the limit. The economy is flying — there is a lot of work. Same thing in the construction trades as well, especially plumbing.
Why do I have a responsibility for someone else’s economic prospects? The man profiled in the story didn’t sound like he was a victim of anything I’m responsible for: I didn’t make him late for work so much he got fired. I didn’t ask him to get married and have two kids at age 21. There is a whole bunch of “not my problem” going on there.
I’m also not convinced only $30-40 per hour in a pretty cheap cost of living area is a bad wage. That’s much more than many degreed people working in the city make. Also the potential with welding is that he could start his own shop and be making some serious money. The national demand is huge. My dad is a retired precision machinist and his “side business” in his garage makes him more money than his job working with physics Nobel laureates at a major university ever did. Most of his business is contract work for universities and oil field tooling companies and he hires welders almost continually. Most welders he works with are at full capacity and can’t hire people fast enough. The problem is that many people that go into the trades are like the guy profiled in the story: unreliable, often losers, who don’t stick around very long. The good ones, the sky is pretty much the limit. The economy is flying — there is a lot of work. Same thing in the construction trades as well, especially plumbing.
A relative a mine works for an engineering firm that hires a lot of pipe fitters and welders for jobs they bid (beverage industry). The hourly and (frequently) overtime wages they pay welders often sound good, but the work is also somewhat intermittent and almost always involves significant travel. The welders they hire have pretty significant wage variability year to year.
What the title of article should be: "The Myth of the Freelance Wealthy Welder in Nowheresville, Anystate USA".
Welding, and trades in general, pay big money in the big cities along the coasts. I bet the union welders putting up sky scrapers and fixing public works are making six figures, minimum.
Welding, and trades in general, pay big money in the big cities along the coasts. I bet the union welders putting up sky scrapers and fixing public works are making six figures, minimum.
> If we are able to persuade ourselves that there are plenty of lucrative opportunities available for young people like Orry who didn’t much like high school, it absolves us of our shared responsibility to address the reality of his limited economic prospects
Mic drop
Mic drop
Every welder and tradesman I know back home where the median home value is $75k is doing pretty good.
No student loans, dual-income with a CRN, and you're living pretty high in the rust belt.
No student loans, dual-income with a CRN, and you're living pretty high in the rust belt.
Despite my handle, I'm not a welder.
In all seriousness, it sucks people were duped into a welding career not all it's cracked up to be.
In all seriousness, it sucks people were duped into a welding career not all it's cracked up to be.
> One of the many odd things about the rhetoric that posits welding as the antithesis of college is that in order to become a welder, you actually have to go to college. You can learn the basics in a high-school shop class, as Orry did, but to do it well, you not only have to master multiple precise manual skills; you also need a pretty deep scientific understanding of the metal you’re working with and the electrical and chemical processes you’re using to manipulate that metal. To earn an associate’s degree, Orry would need to pass 12 separate welding courses, plus basic courses in math and English, as well as more conceptual courses in welding metallurgy.
This right here. Says it all.
I've worked in machine shops all my life, and while it is true that welding was one of the highest paid occupations in that environment; it's also true that it's not something that anyone can do with a week of on-the-job training.
Most welding jobs are sticking wrought iron railings together, or playground equipment, or repairing mufflers. It's easy. It's cheap. It is, quite literally, something for a disposable employee to do. It doesn't take skill or experience to replace a muffler. It takes a hack-saw and a MIG welder. There's no reason anyone would or should pay a Jiffy-lube muffler installer $150k/year. It's not a job that warrants that kind of pay. But most "welders" go into the trade thinking that's what they're working towards. It's not comparable in any way to the work performed by a professional welder. They really shouldn't even be called the same thing. It's like labeling a script kiddie a programmer. Misrepresenting the script kiddie takes more away from the actual programmer than it gives to the fake one.
That being said, "real" welding is where the money is. It's being certified by some authoritative body to perform your job, whatever that may be. Aerospace, architectural, nuclear, underwater, ect. It's being able to read a complex blueprint and create assemblies that are conforming to a long list of criteria. Criteria that come from a) the government, b) the customer, c) your own quality department, d) your engineering department, e) your own experience. I bet you that if you took most bicycles from Wal-Mart and had the welds x-ray'd that 100% would fail standard NDT testing like X-Ray, FPI (fluorescent particle inspection), MPI (magnetic particle inspection). It requires a very low-level understanding of the science behind welding. On a molecular/chemical level.
The welders who take their job seriously, climb to the top, take their time, can read a blueprint, and are professional in their appearance, work ethic, mannerisms, and products do well. They will reach $150k by working on mission-critical components that people's lives depend on. You can't substitute an actual welder for "a welder." They need to be responsible, talented, and intelligent.
Sadly the people being pushed/drawn into welding careers aren't any of those things. They are simple people looking for an easy way out of poverty. As a result, there are now hundreds of thousands of under-qualified people trying to get into a career with mere thousands of openings. The ones that do get in hover close to the bottom because they need the same skills to be good at welding that they needed all along. The bar for welding is just as high as for being a doctor, or a programmer, or any other profession.
So in the end, you can be a wealthy welder or a poor welder. You can be a wealthy programmer, or a poor programmer. It all comes down to the word "professional". If you're professional chances are good you're intelligent and will do well no matter what field you go into.
My last shop was NADCAP certified (for aerospace with 5 x-ray certified full-time welders. We had one who only made it about 9 months or so. His welds were GORGEOUS. This guy should have been working in a motorcycle shop. His work was just so neat and tidy! But he couldn't pass X-ray or FPI to save his life. He would wait nervously for his parts to return from NDT vendors to count the parts he would have to rework.
After he porked 400 or so inconel rings for tungsten inclusion we had to let him go. He was a good welder, but he wasn't good enough to be working on airplane parts.
This right here. Says it all.
I've worked in machine shops all my life, and while it is true that welding was one of the highest paid occupations in that environment; it's also true that it's not something that anyone can do with a week of on-the-job training.
Most welding jobs are sticking wrought iron railings together, or playground equipment, or repairing mufflers. It's easy. It's cheap. It is, quite literally, something for a disposable employee to do. It doesn't take skill or experience to replace a muffler. It takes a hack-saw and a MIG welder. There's no reason anyone would or should pay a Jiffy-lube muffler installer $150k/year. It's not a job that warrants that kind of pay. But most "welders" go into the trade thinking that's what they're working towards. It's not comparable in any way to the work performed by a professional welder. They really shouldn't even be called the same thing. It's like labeling a script kiddie a programmer. Misrepresenting the script kiddie takes more away from the actual programmer than it gives to the fake one.
That being said, "real" welding is where the money is. It's being certified by some authoritative body to perform your job, whatever that may be. Aerospace, architectural, nuclear, underwater, ect. It's being able to read a complex blueprint and create assemblies that are conforming to a long list of criteria. Criteria that come from a) the government, b) the customer, c) your own quality department, d) your engineering department, e) your own experience. I bet you that if you took most bicycles from Wal-Mart and had the welds x-ray'd that 100% would fail standard NDT testing like X-Ray, FPI (fluorescent particle inspection), MPI (magnetic particle inspection). It requires a very low-level understanding of the science behind welding. On a molecular/chemical level.
The welders who take their job seriously, climb to the top, take their time, can read a blueprint, and are professional in their appearance, work ethic, mannerisms, and products do well. They will reach $150k by working on mission-critical components that people's lives depend on. You can't substitute an actual welder for "a welder." They need to be responsible, talented, and intelligent.
Sadly the people being pushed/drawn into welding careers aren't any of those things. They are simple people looking for an easy way out of poverty. As a result, there are now hundreds of thousands of under-qualified people trying to get into a career with mere thousands of openings. The ones that do get in hover close to the bottom because they need the same skills to be good at welding that they needed all along. The bar for welding is just as high as for being a doctor, or a programmer, or any other profession.
So in the end, you can be a wealthy welder or a poor welder. You can be a wealthy programmer, or a poor programmer. It all comes down to the word "professional". If you're professional chances are good you're intelligent and will do well no matter what field you go into.
My last shop was NADCAP certified (for aerospace with 5 x-ray certified full-time welders. We had one who only made it about 9 months or so. His welds were GORGEOUS. This guy should have been working in a motorcycle shop. His work was just so neat and tidy! But he couldn't pass X-ray or FPI to save his life. He would wait nervously for his parts to return from NDT vendors to count the parts he would have to rework.
After he porked 400 or so inconel rings for tungsten inclusion we had to let him go. He was a good welder, but he wasn't good enough to be working on airplane parts.
I don't think I will look at welds on an airplane the same after reading this. Very interesting, thanks for posting!
Skilled trade demand varies across the United States. Welding is not a major trade in the western North Carolina. You can jump right on over to the eastern portion of Virginia and find a large number of welding opportunities. The temp agency I work for as opportunities from 13 to 21 and beyond for 5XXX and CuNi in South Carolina, Norfolk, Knoxville, Tampa, and Columbus. Several of these go so far as to offer per diem.. When I got hired I was in initial OSHA training with a guy from VT Halter in Mississippi who came up here on per diem and was being paid 29 + per diem. The skilled trades have a good amount of opportunity if you're available and able to reside where industry is located.
This guy was fired twice for missing work. So that's just a bad sign off the rip. I think welding is being pushed too hard. Every one needs to do their research and see what trades are in demand where they reside.
12 -18
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/26693cff-8967-4b2c-a62...
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/e30dd4d1-fe81-4f71-825...
20 - 23
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/2541dfe5-4f21-41fa-aef...
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/59ec0ea9-e975-4ff8-931...
Unlisted, but based on reading 20+. Mostly 5XXX, CuNi, etc.
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/cf1967b7-0e04-4a5f-9ff...
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/b3482924-7abe-44bd-b76...
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/29c1474d-a58c-4299-aba...
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/d5ff023f-c22e-4ad9-95d...
This guy was fired twice for missing work. So that's just a bad sign off the rip. I think welding is being pushed too hard. Every one needs to do their research and see what trades are in demand where they reside.
12 -18
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/26693cff-8967-4b2c-a62...
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/e30dd4d1-fe81-4f71-825...
20 - 23
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/2541dfe5-4f21-41fa-aef...
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/59ec0ea9-e975-4ff8-931...
Unlisted, but based on reading 20+. Mostly 5XXX, CuNi, etc.
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/cf1967b7-0e04-4a5f-9ff...
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/b3482924-7abe-44bd-b76...
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/29c1474d-a58c-4299-aba...
https://gmn.avionte.com/basic/posting/d5ff023f-c22e-4ad9-95d...
Not unless your this guy:
https://www.nboler.com/
https://www.nboler.com/
>To earn an associate’s degree, Orry would need to pass 12 separate welding courses, plus basic courses in math and English, as well as more conceptual courses in welding metallurgy.
>His first year at CVCC went well, mostly. It wasn’t completely smooth—he failed his required English course, which was offered only online. But in his welding classes, he earned nothing but A’s and B’s. After that first year ended, he ran into some bureaucratic trouble with his financial aid, he told me, and he took both the summer and the fall of 2017 off from school. For a while, I wondered whether he might just be finished with college. But then he started up again as a full-time student in January 2018.
Why would anyone pay to go to college for welding? Unless it is some specialized area (Underwater welding), you can join the Iron Worker's 4 year apprenticeship program.
4 years of work/classes once a month. Start at 60% scale (16-18$ depending on state) in year one. 10% pump in pay each year so by the end of your program when you have your journeyman's card you get (26-32$) depending on the state.
You have to pay like a $400 sign up fee to get in the union (way cheaper than college) and continue to pay your union dues, however that gets you the benefit of getting on a list to be called when contractors need to man a job.
A lot of times it just takes one job with a contractor where you do well, and they will call you direct anytime they need a job.
There are lots of Iron Workers in my area at least who only work 9 months out of the year and make $100,000 + by working shutdowns (emergency repair jobs) through the union hall.
You can get all your welding certificates without going to college which is what any job requires. Experience and certs proving your welds are up to par.
Also FTA
> It was hard work, loud and dirty and repetitive, but it paid $13.90 an hour, more than Snappy Lube. After a year and a half, Orry was fired for missing too many days of work, but he soon managed to land a job at another steel-wire factory. Then he got fired from that job as well.
> It was by that point the spring of 2016, and Orry was 24, separated, and unemployed. He was raising two children with his ex-wife, Katie, and he was living with a new girlfriend named Crystal. Orry had been working hard for five years, and yet he was broke, with nothing saved.
It doesn't explain why he was fired other than 'missed too many days' - and doesn't say any reason for the 2nd. This sounds to me like it's more about the personal work ethic of Orry and budgeting skills vs being a welder you will be poor.
Anecdotal I know, but a friend of mine right out of high school got into the trades with the above mentioned path. By 24 (2 years into his journeyman work), he had a modest two bedroom house, wife, two kids and had no issues with money or bankruptcy. He also only worked shutdowns where he may work 28 days in a row, 12 hours a day, and then have an entire month off until the next job. This life isn't for everyone but hey for some it works some it doesn't.
>His first year at CVCC went well, mostly. It wasn’t completely smooth—he failed his required English course, which was offered only online. But in his welding classes, he earned nothing but A’s and B’s. After that first year ended, he ran into some bureaucratic trouble with his financial aid, he told me, and he took both the summer and the fall of 2017 off from school. For a while, I wondered whether he might just be finished with college. But then he started up again as a full-time student in January 2018.
Why would anyone pay to go to college for welding? Unless it is some specialized area (Underwater welding), you can join the Iron Worker's 4 year apprenticeship program.
4 years of work/classes once a month. Start at 60% scale (16-18$ depending on state) in year one. 10% pump in pay each year so by the end of your program when you have your journeyman's card you get (26-32$) depending on the state.
You have to pay like a $400 sign up fee to get in the union (way cheaper than college) and continue to pay your union dues, however that gets you the benefit of getting on a list to be called when contractors need to man a job.
A lot of times it just takes one job with a contractor where you do well, and they will call you direct anytime they need a job.
There are lots of Iron Workers in my area at least who only work 9 months out of the year and make $100,000 + by working shutdowns (emergency repair jobs) through the union hall.
You can get all your welding certificates without going to college which is what any job requires. Experience and certs proving your welds are up to par.
Also FTA
> It was hard work, loud and dirty and repetitive, but it paid $13.90 an hour, more than Snappy Lube. After a year and a half, Orry was fired for missing too many days of work, but he soon managed to land a job at another steel-wire factory. Then he got fired from that job as well.
> It was by that point the spring of 2016, and Orry was 24, separated, and unemployed. He was raising two children with his ex-wife, Katie, and he was living with a new girlfriend named Crystal. Orry had been working hard for five years, and yet he was broke, with nothing saved.
It doesn't explain why he was fired other than 'missed too many days' - and doesn't say any reason for the 2nd. This sounds to me like it's more about the personal work ethic of Orry and budgeting skills vs being a welder you will be poor.
Anecdotal I know, but a friend of mine right out of high school got into the trades with the above mentioned path. By 24 (2 years into his journeyman work), he had a modest two bedroom house, wife, two kids and had no issues with money or bankruptcy. He also only worked shutdowns where he may work 28 days in a row, 12 hours a day, and then have an entire month off until the next job. This life isn't for everyone but hey for some it works some it doesn't.
taneq(2)
I just don't get it. Education is everything! How is the United States placing such a low priority on it!? It is really only a matter of time until we are blown out of the water by Asian countries, who seem to understand its importance.
Education is important but it doesn't have to be formal degree-oriented offered through what is effectively a cartel.
Education can and does come in a variety of ways. Expecting it to look exactly the same and work exactly the same for basically everyone doesn't make sense.
I'd love to see more of an emphasis around lifelong learning instead of demanding 18yo make lifetime decisions with near-zero life experience.
Education can and does come in a variety of ways. Expecting it to look exactly the same and work exactly the same for basically everyone doesn't make sense.
I'd love to see more of an emphasis around lifelong learning instead of demanding 18yo make lifetime decisions with near-zero life experience.
Education is important, but it's not everything.
I do hire people every once in a while and I want them to be reliable, smart and educated in this specific order of priority.
Education is important, but I'm sure my plumber who charges a thousand bucks cash for half a day work earns more than most college graduates in this country.
I do hire people every once in a while and I want them to be reliable, smart and educated in this specific order of priority.
Education is important, but I'm sure my plumber who charges a thousand bucks cash for half a day work earns more than most college graduates in this country.
There's an image problem with college in the US, largely the fault of some of the students/student organizations. Like that protest that took over a whole unrelated building, barring an innocent professor from accessing his research, and resulted in the professor being fired for trying to get it back. I hope we can return to respectable academia at one point. Where universities put furthering the body of human knowledge before bending over for their 'customers' who are more concerned with using the place as a playground to push their political views. I wouldn't be surprised if some medical university research program was on the verge of curing cancer but let their program be delayed because the students wanted to do a walk-in over something or other.
Wish the downvoters would give some explanation. I left my college with a vague sense of shame over the frivolous protests the student body participated in and the admin/professors allowed to disrupt class/activities/common-use areas. I'd have paid more togo somewhere protests had to be done off-campus or in a designated zone. At least in theory you're supposed to be there to learn.
Exactly correct. But valuing education is now as politicized as hurricane forecasts.
This is because education level is a major factor in voting patterns. So conservative pundits have made open war on it, to the nations serious detriment. They could instead work to lower the price of education but that is absolutely not the agenda for the same reasons.
It's not entirely unprecedented, universities have been called communist incubators for decades. What is new is the shift in portrayal from communist to being a bad investment (but with no intention of fixing that). Also new is the willingness to cast off the nations future for political gain which previous conservatives apparently were not willing to do.
There are similar patterns for climate change, guns and renewable energy.
This is because education level is a major factor in voting patterns. So conservative pundits have made open war on it, to the nations serious detriment. They could instead work to lower the price of education but that is absolutely not the agenda for the same reasons.
It's not entirely unprecedented, universities have been called communist incubators for decades. What is new is the shift in portrayal from communist to being a bad investment (but with no intention of fixing that). Also new is the willingness to cast off the nations future for political gain which previous conservatives apparently were not willing to do.
There are similar patterns for climate change, guns and renewable energy.
> So conservative pundits have made open war on it, to the nations serious detriment. They could instead work to lower the price of education but that is absolutely not the agenda for the same reasons.
What? Conservatives have been advocates of school choice (shown to reduce the price of education) for decades. Conservatives have not made open war on education at all. Conservative pundits themselves tend to be some of the most educated people. I mean, I'm pretty conservative, and graduated out of a top-ranked, intensive engineering school.
What? Conservatives have been advocates of school choice (shown to reduce the price of education) for decades. Conservatives have not made open war on education at all. Conservative pundits themselves tend to be some of the most educated people. I mean, I'm pretty conservative, and graduated out of a top-ranked, intensive engineering school.
I made good money doing it, but the work was hit or miss and it wasn't really the welding I was getting paid for, it was knowing how to cut up vans and modify them for severely handicapped people and I'd learned how to do that by building "custom cars" with my father who was a "bodyman" by trade and went on to become a "custom car builder".
By the time I quit customizing vans for the handicapped the State of California required you be a "certified welder" to do the work I did on the vans and cars they purchased for people who were in wheelchairs so you had to pay to go to a "welding school" to get a certification.
But none of those welders I met who did that actually knew how to weld. How to lay down a bead that penetrated the steel. They all did what those I learned from called "bird shit" welds. A cold weld that laid on top of the metal and didn't penetrate all the way through, and were thus prone to fail. And none of them started those jobs for much more than $5-$7 an hour.
That's when I decided to learn how to code. It was only a few years after that when the Internet started taking off, so I learned HTML and Perl by buying books written by the likes of Steven Brenner, "Selena Sol", Lincoln Stein and Randal Schwartz and there were no college level classes that taught it. I got invited to teach some after hour classes at SMS because they didn't have any at the time.
Now, more than 20 years later companies want to hire someone with a CS degree, and really they often don't know any more about it than those guys who took those welding classes did about laying down a bead that stuck.
But in both cases those who sold the classes lobbied their State Reps to make them mandatory and raked in the cash afterwards.