Ask NickB: How do you do it, dude?
39 comments
Can you downmod a submission? I don't see how. If not, then submitting is a good strategy to get karma. You can't lose any.
Engaging in a debate, OTOH, is another issue. Doesn't matter who's right, what you've done, or what you know. If someone else disagrees with you and doesn't feel like saying why, they just click the down arrow. "Anonymous Coward Downmodders".
I could earn 50 points by posting the cure for cancer in one post and lose it all by saying I hate <Ruby, Facebook, Lisp, whatever> everywhere else.
So, to be safe, keep submitting, don't insult anyone, and never say anything controversial. But what fun would that be?
(Geez, I hope nobody disagrees with this.)
Engaging in a debate, OTOH, is another issue. Doesn't matter who's right, what you've done, or what you know. If someone else disagrees with you and doesn't feel like saying why, they just click the down arrow. "Anonymous Coward Downmodders".
I could earn 50 points by posting the cure for cancer in one post and lose it all by saying I hate <Ruby, Facebook, Lisp, whatever> everywhere else.
So, to be safe, keep submitting, don't insult anyone, and never say anything controversial. But what fun would that be?
(Geez, I hope nobody disagrees with this.)
There are consequences if you spam the site with huge numbers of crappy links; they're just not so visible.
I mostly post controversial comments. This is obviously not the ideal way to get high karma, but I'm not very active and have 188 karma anyway, so it seems to work fine.
Wow.. a thread about me? I guess I should feel honored :)
A word about myself so you can see where I'm coming from... I'm currently part of a startup. We're working feverishly on a product that I feel might get some heavy competition in 6-12 months. I've seen one or two products that sort of come close to the area we're approaching but they haven't really hit the bulls-eye. The pace at which we're working is not for the faint of heart and I work about 12-13 hrs every day. The team has about 4 people so far (+2 part time) and I'm the lead. This is my third startup (1st time as a lead) so I've seen things from many different angles. I've experienced a startup that skyrocketed and one that failed and also one that's doing moderately well. So yes, I've seen what works and what doesn't. We're completely self funded at this point (myself and my co-founder put some cash into the company) but we might go out and raise some money 6 months from now or so. We have never applied for YC... we're probably too late and too big for YC.
Now, after reading that description, you will understand what my interests are and why I like this site so much. I'm primarily concerned with methods, ways, advice of how to work using agile methods and how to develop webapps fast. We use RoR, some Java, some Python, some Flash and a lot of JavaScript. Personally, I'm a huge fan of functional languages (Lisp & Erlang) so you will see a lot of submissions from me on those topics as well. I am also _extremely_ interested in various distribution methods (viral, word of mouth, SEO/SEM) so you will see me submit a lot of links like that.
Now, how exactly do I track news. Well, I use an RSS reader (NetNewsWire, grab it, it's free now) to gather my news and the only news website that I actually open inside a browser is Hacker News. I check RSS feeds about 3-4 times a day (usually during breaks and when I need to clear my head) and I use a YCN bookmarklet to submit (http://ycombinator.com/bookmarklet.html). It literally takes a second to submit using that handy little piece of JS code. I track about 150 feeds. Majority of them are about programming and technology. But I also track a lot of marketing, business and startup-related legal blogs. I dislike heavy volume blogs since they post a lot of fluff and a lot of it is boring to me at this point. So, whenever I find something that's interesting to me, I post it here. Over the past six months, I found a lot of interesting blogs linked here so I doubt you're missing much if you just track HN's "new" section.
Submissions that are not strictly news are usually best links on the topic that I was researching. For example, after I did some research on recommendation systems, I posted a few links that were helpful to myself. I also use HN as a crude delicious.
I also enjoy commenting on HN because people who frequent this site tend to be smarter than people on other sites and they tend to be in the same situation as myself: fighting time and working on something and looking for ways to make their product successful and better. Signal to noise ratio (SNR) on HN is also quite high. I was afraid that it would fall after pg rebranded and expanded the focus of the site but that has not happened yet (lucky for us!)
I like to read a lot and I read very quickly so you'd be surprised how little time I actually spend reading stuff on the web. I try to read a book a week as well.
Quick tip... check out the "new" section and give a mod point to articles you like. Most of the articles get "hot" after they reach the front page but a lot of quality articles never reach it. When you've identified people who have similar interests as yourself, keep track of their submissions. I keep track of submissions of 3 people here and I upmod their stories quite often since they interest me. For example, this is my submission queue: http://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=nickb
And finally, reward people who post to your threads by moding them up :). Has this made any difference to my rep? Probably not but I like spreading karma.
PS: My HN specific email's in my profile. Feel free to ask personal questions offline.
A word about myself so you can see where I'm coming from... I'm currently part of a startup. We're working feverishly on a product that I feel might get some heavy competition in 6-12 months. I've seen one or two products that sort of come close to the area we're approaching but they haven't really hit the bulls-eye. The pace at which we're working is not for the faint of heart and I work about 12-13 hrs every day. The team has about 4 people so far (+2 part time) and I'm the lead. This is my third startup (1st time as a lead) so I've seen things from many different angles. I've experienced a startup that skyrocketed and one that failed and also one that's doing moderately well. So yes, I've seen what works and what doesn't. We're completely self funded at this point (myself and my co-founder put some cash into the company) but we might go out and raise some money 6 months from now or so. We have never applied for YC... we're probably too late and too big for YC.
Now, after reading that description, you will understand what my interests are and why I like this site so much. I'm primarily concerned with methods, ways, advice of how to work using agile methods and how to develop webapps fast. We use RoR, some Java, some Python, some Flash and a lot of JavaScript. Personally, I'm a huge fan of functional languages (Lisp & Erlang) so you will see a lot of submissions from me on those topics as well. I am also _extremely_ interested in various distribution methods (viral, word of mouth, SEO/SEM) so you will see me submit a lot of links like that.
Now, how exactly do I track news. Well, I use an RSS reader (NetNewsWire, grab it, it's free now) to gather my news and the only news website that I actually open inside a browser is Hacker News. I check RSS feeds about 3-4 times a day (usually during breaks and when I need to clear my head) and I use a YCN bookmarklet to submit (http://ycombinator.com/bookmarklet.html). It literally takes a second to submit using that handy little piece of JS code. I track about 150 feeds. Majority of them are about programming and technology. But I also track a lot of marketing, business and startup-related legal blogs. I dislike heavy volume blogs since they post a lot of fluff and a lot of it is boring to me at this point. So, whenever I find something that's interesting to me, I post it here. Over the past six months, I found a lot of interesting blogs linked here so I doubt you're missing much if you just track HN's "new" section.
Submissions that are not strictly news are usually best links on the topic that I was researching. For example, after I did some research on recommendation systems, I posted a few links that were helpful to myself. I also use HN as a crude delicious.
I also enjoy commenting on HN because people who frequent this site tend to be smarter than people on other sites and they tend to be in the same situation as myself: fighting time and working on something and looking for ways to make their product successful and better. Signal to noise ratio (SNR) on HN is also quite high. I was afraid that it would fall after pg rebranded and expanded the focus of the site but that has not happened yet (lucky for us!)
I like to read a lot and I read very quickly so you'd be surprised how little time I actually spend reading stuff on the web. I try to read a book a week as well.
Quick tip... check out the "new" section and give a mod point to articles you like. Most of the articles get "hot" after they reach the front page but a lot of quality articles never reach it. When you've identified people who have similar interests as yourself, keep track of their submissions. I keep track of submissions of 3 people here and I upmod their stories quite often since they interest me. For example, this is my submission queue: http://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=nickb
And finally, reward people who post to your threads by moding them up :). Has this made any difference to my rep? Probably not but I like spreading karma.
PS: My HN specific email's in my profile. Feel free to ask personal questions offline.
I don't think PG will let the signal to noise ratio get low. It's not that hard to keep it on the good side if you're not concerned with growing the largest possible audience.
I'm pretty sure PG runs this site because he likes it, not because he hopes to make the next Digg, so I'd expect that if the noise grew he'd work on keeping it down, even if that meant keeping the audience small.
That's just my impression. What say you PG?
I'm pretty sure PG runs this site because he likes it, not because he hopes to make the next Digg, so I'd expect that if the noise grew he'd work on keeping it down, even if that meant keeping the audience small.
That's just my impression. What say you PG?
It's a combination of motives: I want there to be a site that's like Reddit used to be; I want a real application to drive the design of Arc; and it's good advertising for YC.
All three are best satisfied by a medium-size site with good quality links and comments, so I am definitely not hoping News.YC becomes the next Digg.
All three are best satisfied by a medium-size site with good quality links and comments, so I am definitely not hoping News.YC becomes the next Digg.
Nice one nickb. Have you also tried tumblr as a 'crude delicious'? It has a sweet bookmarklet thats easy to use the same time as news.yc's.
Two tips I'd like to chip in myself:
1) Rewrite the headline to make it clearer
2) Don't post a submission or comment unless you believe it creates value for others. Consider the signal/noise ratio.
And a third for those who only want karma:
3) Mention a keyword such as PG, YC or Lisp in the headline. "Justin.tv Video interview with Paul Graham on writing openID support for news.yc in lisp" would be a high karma headline
Two tips I'd like to chip in myself:
1) Rewrite the headline to make it clearer
2) Don't post a submission or comment unless you believe it creates value for others. Consider the signal/noise ratio.
And a third for those who only want karma:
3) Mention a keyword such as PG, YC or Lisp in the headline. "Justin.tv Video interview with Paul Graham on writing openID support for news.yc in lisp" would be a high karma headline
...I was going to say something against that last point, and it not being done for the right purposes. I then hit reply and found you changed it. Well played.
But, this still applies to some more of the posts here. I notice that, for the most part, people are harking against news.yc being flooded with crappy submissions and turning into digg/reddit. Then you have threads like this where a portion of the focus of these comments are geared towards giving tips on how to have high karma retrieving posts.
In my opinion, karma is nice and all, but the main purpose of news.yc is to submit quality articles, articles that interest you and may interest others, without karma valuation playing a role in submitting something. That is part of the reason why digg has devolved into what it is now. People began to put a great deal of emphasis and importance on accumulating diggs, or karma here, which in turn decreased value of posts, and so on, blah blah.
In any case, vote me up!
But, this still applies to some more of the posts here. I notice that, for the most part, people are harking against news.yc being flooded with crappy submissions and turning into digg/reddit. Then you have threads like this where a portion of the focus of these comments are geared towards giving tips on how to have high karma retrieving posts.
In my opinion, karma is nice and all, but the main purpose of news.yc is to submit quality articles, articles that interest you and may interest others, without karma valuation playing a role in submitting something. That is part of the reason why digg has devolved into what it is now. People began to put a great deal of emphasis and importance on accumulating diggs, or karma here, which in turn decreased value of posts, and so on, blah blah.
In any case, vote me up!
But if you keep the community small and smart, they would only vote up the good articles so submitting shit will no reward anyone with more karma.
So, even people only want to acquire karma points they would have to submit interesting links, otherwise no one will upmod but downmod them.
So, even people only want to acquire karma points they would have to submit interesting links, otherwise no one will upmod but downmod them.
Sorry about it changing. I have a very iterative approach to writing.
Are there any non-karma approaches to news sites that work well?
The two that I know of are:
Are there any non-karma approaches to news sites that work well?
The two that I know of are:
1) Charge for membership
2) Keep the community smallI'm not suggesting we eradicate karma. Karma is a fine way to credit quality submissions and comments. Karma is not the problem, but rather a person's desire to accumulate lots of karma is.
I'm putting the burden on the users to evaluate their motives and to make sure that what they are submitting will really contribute to the community, not for the sole purpose of fueling their karma fetish.
I'm putting the burden on the users to evaluate their motives and to make sure that what they are submitting will really contribute to the community, not for the sole purpose of fueling their karma fetish.
RE #3: Yes, you will get karma for mentioning any of those 3 things, but that's because a lot of people are interested in them. Really, is there a better or more appropriate place on the internet for people to go if they're interested in PG, YC, or Lisp?
I'd love to get a breakdown of that 12-13 hour day... I recently trimmed my RSS feeds but am still pretty aghast at how much time I spent with feeds/News.YC...
Well done Nick. You clearly deserve your Karma wealth.
Recommend any of those books? and would you mind sharing what your best feeds are?
Thank you, nickb, for the great response! I, for one, really appreciate anything that adds a human touch, especially here at HN.
I agree with so much of what you've said about HN; I feel like I've found a 2nd home here.
Keep up the good work and drop us a personal line every once in a while.
(I'd put you on a pedestal, but you're already there.)
I agree with so much of what you've said about HN; I feel like I've found a 2nd home here.
Keep up the good work and drop us a personal line every once in a while.
(I'd put you on a pedestal, but you're already there.)
I thought of posting a similar question before because you seemed to be responsible for 1 in 6 of everything that happens on the site. I'm surprised to hear you actually get other stuff done. For a while I was starting to suspect you might be a professional Hacker News researcher!
Yeah seriously!
I recently got into the leader board which gave me a good feeling, although I know I shouldn't be feeling that. But even with my low score, I feel like I am Karma Slutting sometimes (I prefer that to the term Karma Whoring).
I recently got into the leader board which gave me a good feeling, although I know I shouldn't be feeling that. But even with my low score, I feel like I am Karma Slutting sometimes (I prefer that to the term Karma Whoring).
NickB is not real, he is my bot
(just kidding)
(just kidding)
FWIW, in the past 5 days, nickb has gained 150 points of karma from submissions, and 25 points of karma from comments; so clearly it's primarily the submissions which are putting him so far "ahead of the pack".
Interestingly, in the same 5 days, nickb has submitted 37 stories -- an average of score of just over 5 points each -- which places ranks him highly not only in volume of submissions but also in quality.
Interestingly, in the same 5 days, nickb has submitted 37 stories -- an average of score of just over 5 points each -- which places ranks him highly not only in volume of submissions but also in quality.
Nickb clearly has some clever software working for him :)
What did you use to track this down? Did you do it manually?
And yes, just like with a lot of other things, it's about quality and not quantity of submissions. The interest of users of this site is pretty clear so if you submit links that are meaningful to them, there's a good chance you'll get upmoded. But as I said, I don't really care about karma... I get nothing for it anyway :).
I view submitting stuff here as a thanks to others that do the same. I can't even begin to express the thanks to others that have introduced me to so many different concepts that have cut down our development time by months.
And yes, just like with a lot of other things, it's about quality and not quantity of submissions. The interest of users of this site is pretty clear so if you submit links that are meaningful to them, there's a good chance you'll get upmoded. But as I said, I don't really care about karma... I get nothing for it anyway :).
I view submitting stuff here as a thanks to others that do the same. I can't even begin to express the thanks to others that have introduced me to so many different concepts that have cut down our development time by months.
[deleted]
it's all those xkcd submissions :X
I guess the links must be the money-maker, they tend to get more points then the comments.
Ever heard of custom burned RSS feeds and an alarm clock?
Step 1: Attribute value to Karma
etc.
etc.
Almost everyone values the opinion of their peers, and that is what karma measures (or tries to).
I don't see much correspondence between quality and upmods. Exhibit A: This current "submission" is at #1. Why? Who is upmodding it and why do they think it is a valuable or even sensible question? nickb "does it" by submitting and commenting a lot...too much, really. There's usually something wrong with outliers.
I'm on the "leaders" link, but I know perfectly well that plenty of my comments would have had me banned from any real world settings...and that includes comments that got upmodded.
I'm on the "leaders" link, but I know perfectly well that plenty of my comments would have had me banned from any real world settings...and that includes comments that got upmodded.
Who is upmodding it and why do they think it is a valuable or even sensible question?
I upmodded it because I can see that, while grammatically a question, its real purpose is to thank Nickb, and I think he deserves it.
There are plenty of situations where being an outlier is not a bad sign, and reputation in a (nonlame) community is one of them.
I upmodded it because I can see that, while grammatically a question, its real purpose is to thank Nickb, and I think he deserves it.
There are plenty of situations where being an outlier is not a bad sign, and reputation in a (nonlame) community is one of them.
Agreed. Sometimes the same behavior, implemented with slightly different intentions, can have vastly different effects.
nickb isn't far from a link spammer - he might very well be detected as one by a poor algorithm on a lesser site. Instead he's an incredibly important contributor.
On the other hand, I too have suspected that he was just a really well trained bot - which would still be impressive.
nickb isn't far from a link spammer - he might very well be detected as one by a poor algorithm on a lesser site. Instead he's an incredibly important contributor.
On the other hand, I too have suspected that he was just a really well trained bot - which would still be impressive.
nickb "does it" by submitting and commenting a lot...too much, really
I don't see any problem with submitting lots of stories as long as they're of a reasonable quality. Unfortunately the fact that stories can't be voted down means that there's no penalty (at least as far as karma is concerned) for flooding the site with submissions.
While I don't think nickb falls into this category, there are certainly other people who are making (IMHO) excessive numbers of submissions without significant merit.
Ironically, a few hours ago I posted a suggestion for dealing with this problem (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=99846): Make submitting a story cost a few points of karma, so that submissions only result in a net gain in karma if the submissions get voted up.
I don't see any problem with submitting lots of stories as long as they're of a reasonable quality. Unfortunately the fact that stories can't be voted down means that there's no penalty (at least as far as karma is concerned) for flooding the site with submissions.
While I don't think nickb falls into this category, there are certainly other people who are making (IMHO) excessive numbers of submissions without significant merit.
Ironically, a few hours ago I posted a suggestion for dealing with this problem (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=99846): Make submitting a story cost a few points of karma, so that submissions only result in a net gain in karma if the submissions get voted up.
I guess it all depends on how you view the site. I view it the way I view Delicious . . . I'm using it primarily for social bookmarking (except that I make sure I only submit items that are of "hacker interest"). If others find my bookmarks meritorious, that's nice. If not, that's fine too. Either way, the cream will rise to the top for the most part.
"Make submitting a story cost a few points of karma, so that submissions only result in a net gain in karma if the submissions get voted up."
Interesting approach.
My own experience tells me that I have absolutely no idea whatsoever how well a submission will do. Sometimes I submit something I find especially profound and helpful, and no one else ever votes or comments. Other times, I see something of passing interest, and it goes wild. Of course, there is always the "Old Faithful List": Facebook, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, pg, Google, or anything professing a like/dislike of a language.
Interesting approach.
My own experience tells me that I have absolutely no idea whatsoever how well a submission will do. Sometimes I submit something I find especially profound and helpful, and no one else ever votes or comments. Other times, I see something of passing interest, and it goes wild. Of course, there is always the "Old Faithful List": Facebook, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, pg, Google, or anything professing a like/dislike of a language.
It has inherent social value - it influences the way people interact. I'd say it's analogous to any other measurement of social status.
So, when I see someone with high karma, I know they epitomize the ideals of the largest*most active group in a society.
So, when I see someone with high karma, I know they epitomize the ideals of the largest*most active group in a society.
By the way, thanks for the hard work in making the site better.