Ask HN: Has political correctness in tech gone too far?
17 comments
[deleted]
“I find it offensive to suggest that people that I don’t identify with might just be having a harder time in my industry. [...] I don’t want to be inclusive and considerate of other people. But it looks like they [sic] only way to survive is to be that.”
There are quite a few nebulous claims here. Which 'outsiders' do you feel are 'assaulting' tech? What is their 'selfish agenda'? What do you feel they have to gain by targetting white male programmers?
I'm torn on this issue. On the one hand I've never noticed anything which is often stated as "blatant everyday sexism". Even when I've started looking for it I was never able to see the things described in these discussions. On the other hand I cannot simply say "you don't notice it, so it doesn't happen" .. maybe here in Germany things are different than the states (which seem to have - just from the reports read here - a massive gender equality problem) .. maybe not. I have no idea.
After that long(winded) introduction: You have a right to state your opinion. You don't have the right to state it without someone saying "that sucks". Whatever you say, whatever you do, will have consequences. And that is a good thing. Consequences remind you that there's nothing free in life. And if your opinions are not worth fighting for - why do you hold them?
After that long(winded) introduction: You have a right to state your opinion. You don't have the right to state it without someone saying "that sucks". Whatever you say, whatever you do, will have consequences. And that is a good thing. Consequences remind you that there's nothing free in life. And if your opinions are not worth fighting for - why do you hold them?
While I agree that this 'gotcha culture' stuff is nonsense, being offended that there are "claims" of sexism just means you're not paying attention. Do you know any female programmers? The amount of bullshit my wife has had to deal with makes me crazy. It's mind boggling what a lot of women have to put up with.
Yes, of course some people blow things out of proportion but it's nuts to say tech is some magic bubble where people are blind to differences. I believed that when I was a lot younger but I'm not blind and cannot believe it now. There are too many guys who act like jerks to women for no reason or are unprofessional / creepy in the workplace even when told about it.
The key is, don't be a dick and do your best to treat people equally. That will get you pretty darn far.
Yes, of course some people blow things out of proportion but it's nuts to say tech is some magic bubble where people are blind to differences. I believed that when I was a lot younger but I'm not blind and cannot believe it now. There are too many guys who act like jerks to women for no reason or are unprofessional / creepy in the workplace even when told about it.
The key is, don't be a dick and do your best to treat people equally. That will get you pretty darn far.
> we were already diverse by design decades ago
What do you base that on? The opposite has been documented numerous times. See the most recent example, this link, http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-paul-ford-what-is-cod... at the bottom of section "2.6 What’s With All These Conferences, Anyway?"
These are contentious issues, and HN is good at quality discourse on many topics. But this one is IMHO not among them.
If you're asking "am I the only one who..." then no, you won't be. But that's a particular phrasing. "Am I correct or justified in this" is not the same question or the same answer.
What do you base that on? The opposite has been documented numerous times. See the most recent example, this link, http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-paul-ford-what-is-cod... at the bottom of section "2.6 What’s With All These Conferences, Anyway?"
These are contentious issues, and HN is good at quality discourse on many topics. But this one is IMHO not among them.
If you're asking "am I the only one who..." then no, you won't be. But that's a particular phrasing. "Am I correct or justified in this" is not the same question or the same answer.
IT used to be diverse. It simply isn't today, which makes the trade vulnerable to this sort of manipulation. While political correctness is the generally agreed-upon method to display tact and awareness of others, it is easy to abuse for selfish, misguided reasons. Harpies, those who abuse political correctness and strict adherence to social rules, are a long standing group that infest every culture on earth.
The one thing that bugs me about this is that we're placing political concerns over technical ones.
Instead of what you can do being the sole decider of how you fare in this industry, the focus is being shifted more to what you are - what your gender is, what your skin color is.
I don't understand how anyone thinks this is a positive development. What you are has zero impact on the quality of work you produce. If what we're optimizing for is the best code, the best design, the best solutions to problems, spotlighting literally anything else other than what directly answers those questions doesn't make sense.
Note: This particular rant is not directed at the diversity programs being launched as of late. Increasing the amount of people getting through the door can only possibly be a good thing - it would be a loss for everyone if the next Swartz or Uriel didn't enter the industry just because they were black or female and they thought everybody would think less of them for it.
On the other hand though, I don't want to see quality standards lowered to accomodate them - the next Swartz or Uriel will be known for what's awesome, not because the standard for what's awesome was lowered in a misguided attempt to get people in.
The first is an admirable goal, the second is a crying shame.
Also, a thanks to whoever decided that this isn't a topic worth talking about. Way to help out!
Instead of what you can do being the sole decider of how you fare in this industry, the focus is being shifted more to what you are - what your gender is, what your skin color is.
I don't understand how anyone thinks this is a positive development. What you are has zero impact on the quality of work you produce. If what we're optimizing for is the best code, the best design, the best solutions to problems, spotlighting literally anything else other than what directly answers those questions doesn't make sense.
Note: This particular rant is not directed at the diversity programs being launched as of late. Increasing the amount of people getting through the door can only possibly be a good thing - it would be a loss for everyone if the next Swartz or Uriel didn't enter the industry just because they were black or female and they thought everybody would think less of them for it.
On the other hand though, I don't want to see quality standards lowered to accomodate them - the next Swartz or Uriel will be known for what's awesome, not because the standard for what's awesome was lowered in a misguided attempt to get people in.
The first is an admirable goal, the second is a crying shame.
Also, a thanks to whoever decided that this isn't a topic worth talking about. Way to help out!
This discussion is useless without specific examples. Who/Where are these politically incorrect people who are having their careers systematically "ruined" to the scale that one would think that "tech" itself is under siege?
I don't think claims of sexism in tech are unfounded. You can find sexism in any industry. I do believe that the overt political correctness does hinder others from expressing opinions that might seem "problematic".
It has gotten to a point in my workplace where it is very hard to not be politicaly correct for the sake of fun, without being "set straight" by select coworkers.
Edit: it's incredibly sad that this was flagged. We can't cover our ears to controversy, we have to be open to it and discuss it.
It has gotten to a point in my workplace where it is very hard to not be politicaly correct for the sake of fun, without being "set straight" by select coworkers.
Edit: it's incredibly sad that this was flagged. We can't cover our ears to controversy, we have to be open to it and discuss it.
> Ask HN: ... political correctness in tech
> ... on twitter and media outlets
Twitter and media outlets are tech? Examples would help.
> ... on twitter and media outlets
Twitter and media outlets are tech? Examples would help.
Others, those with their 'selfish' agendas, perceive this is about economical and corporate justice. You might disagree. If others are attacking, let them. Don't be in a position that they can affect you. If 'they' are many, don't give them ammo, don't tweet, blog, etc. I'm not saying cower but be wise, understand yourself more, etc.
[deleted]
I'm sorry you find it offensive that there are "claims of sexism in OSS and tech." Maybe you should find an industry that doesn't care about gender equality or making strides to create a better working atmosphere for everyone. I'm sure whatever that industry is, will appreciate your opinions and political incorrectness.
Maybe you should try academia?
Maybe you should try academia?
> Maybe you should find an industry that doesn't care about gender equality or making strides to create a better working atmosphere for everyone
Construction, drywall, plumbing, fixing cars, or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.[1]
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[1] http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/more-than-350-femal...
Construction, drywall, plumbing, fixing cars, or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.[1]
---
[1] http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/more-than-350-femal...
This post will be flag-killed soon, and rightly so (I'm flagging it myself), as these discussions usually bring out the worst in the HN community, with some truly amazing displays of unchecked misogyny.
My opinion: absolutely not. Right now tech -- especially software, especially in the Bay Area -- is suffering from extreme sexism. That sexism is real, measurable, and hurts the industry tremendously. Sexism and privacy are the top two political concerns of the software industry at this point in time. Anyone disputing that is either burying their head in the sand or unaware of what sexism is. Software is currently the only white-collar industry where women participation has been consistently dropping for over two decades. Sure, whenever there's a just cause, it can be taken too far. But so far, the verbal abuse directed towards some white men in the industry -- occasionally perhaps unjustifiably -- is puny compared to the damage sexism has caused our industry.
Also, I don't like the term political correctness, as it's just a pejorative used to denote any cause that you disagree with or consider unimportant enough.
My opinion: absolutely not. Right now tech -- especially software, especially in the Bay Area -- is suffering from extreme sexism. That sexism is real, measurable, and hurts the industry tremendously. Sexism and privacy are the top two political concerns of the software industry at this point in time. Anyone disputing that is either burying their head in the sand or unaware of what sexism is. Software is currently the only white-collar industry where women participation has been consistently dropping for over two decades. Sure, whenever there's a just cause, it can be taken too far. But so far, the verbal abuse directed towards some white men in the industry -- occasionally perhaps unjustifiably -- is puny compared to the damage sexism has caused our industry.
Also, I don't like the term political correctness, as it's just a pejorative used to denote any cause that you disagree with or consider unimportant enough.
No, political correctness has NOT gone too far. You just don't know the correct way to think. And the only reason you would think or ask questions is because you're a racist, and sexist and a bigot.
You just can't understand social issues at all because you're privileged and your opinion is invalid. Unless you can prove that you're in one of the protected groups who are victimized by you just by you being white and/or male and/or not poor, you should be fired immediately.
You just can't understand social issues at all because you're privileged and your opinion is invalid. Unless you can prove that you're in one of the protected groups who are victimized by you just by you being white and/or male and/or not poor, you should be fired immediately.
They are sort of like "political trackers", except they are targeting mostly white, male programmers - but in reality - anyone who disagrees with their narrative (whatever it is) is a heretic.
I find it offensive that there are claims of sexism in OSS and tech. Codes of conduct. I feel like I can't give an opinion, or even make a mistake speaking without being stared down or ruining my career.
I don't want to be politically correct. But it looks like they only way to survive is to be that.
Am I the only one who feels like outsiders are assaulting tech for their own selfish agenda, and we were already diverse by design decades ago?