Towards Realtime Deformable Worlds: Why Tetrahedra Rule, Voxels Drool(blog.duangle.com)

127 pointsby Mithaldu11 anni fa27 comments

blog.duangle.com

Towards Realtime Deformable Worlds: Why Tetrahedra Rule, Voxels Drool

http://blog.duangle.com/2015/04/towards-realtime-deformable-worlds-why.html

11 comments

As someone who has done a lot of tetrahedral stuff as well as voxels, there are some downsides to tetrahedrals -- less cache hits, and the complexity of writing tetrahedral code is significantly higher. In the end I believe that the complexity for development and optimization may balance itself with the benefits.

Voxels are just so easy.

Here is my past work in tetrahedrals:

- https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~c2batty/papers/Batty10/ - https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~c2batty/papers/Batty11.pdf

Mithaldu11 anni fa

I don't think he'll be doing fluids with it though. Or are those downsides applicable to mostly static geometry too?

crispweed11 anni fa

Great post! One thing to note with tetrahedral decomposition is that while you can always triangulate non-self-intersecting 2D boundaries into triangulations, using just the boundary verts, this doesn't extend to 3D boundaries and tetrahedral decompositions. You will sometimes need to add extra 'steiner' vertices. Maybe not directly relevant to the context in the link, but it's something I found unintuitive, and a trap to watch out for. See http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/junkyard/untetra/, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%B6nhardt_polyhedron for some concrete examples.

ericbb11 anni fa

I love that he links to an annotated bibliography at the end.

One related resource that I can recommend is Digital Geometry Processing with Discrete Exterior Calculus:

http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~keenan/Projects/DGPDEC/

It's an introductory course in discrete differential geometry and it emphasizes the use of simplicial complexes (like tetrahedral meshes).

santaclaus11 anni fa

Is DDG used in practice? It makes for really interesting papers, but does it reaaaly matter what Laplacian you are using on a mesh?

bhouston11 anni fa

It is used in fluid simulations -- we used it in these papers for a fluid simulator that was used in movie production:

https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~c2batty/papers/Batty10/

https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~c2batty/papers/Batty11.pdf

angersock11 anni fa

Another reason that tetras are handy (for anyone who has looked at FEA) is that you can easily interpolate across them. Maybe not useful now, but if they ever want to add heat transfer or charge or something...

TheLoneWolfling11 anni fa

Ambient lighting is another case. Surface versus volume, and hence triangles versus squares versus tetra versus cubes, but same difference.

Squares have the problem that there are ambiguous cases at saddle points, which you don't get with triangles. If you have this:

It could be this:

Or this:

With triangles there is no analogous issue.

angersock11 anni fa

Quite right. Great example of this is Wings3D--take a quad, add a crease, and switch to OpenGL rendering and watch the weirdness occur.

Quads are just bad.

pacaro11 anni fa

Also you can do the equivalent of a Delaunay triangulation in 3D to consistently convert point clouds into tetrahedra

kbenson11 anni fa

This would be really cool combined with laser scanning hardware[1] to generate point clouds of real-life environments. Deformable representations of the real-world.

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9419534

danneu11 anni fa

The author has some good taste. Those tech demos and sandboxes were just beautiful with nice color palettes and surprising polish for what they were. Like, in the first demo, how the screen glitches when they hit the mesh and how the deformation simply layers a track in the music.

The vertigo of being inside a massive sphere in the 4th demo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FszskWOcRY) and the Alpha 30 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=76&v=dNm0l1L8O1A) remind me of my attempts, as a kid, to imagine what it's like to be inside Arthur C. Clarke's Rama (though Rama was a cylinder).

Mithaldu11 anni fa

He's had a lot of experience and opportunity to learn and expand his craft, as a member of the demoscene group Farbrausch:

http://www.pouet.net/user.php?who=2744&show=credits

http://www.farbrausch.de/

rasz_pl11 anni fa

impressive voxel game engine? here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/user/AtomontageEngine/videos?sort=dd...

RootDynasty11 anni fa

Does Atomontage have support for real time shadows? All of that information seems to be pre-baked into the voxel models. This would severely limits its "everything is destructible" potential. It should be able to support some screen spaced based effects such as deferred shading and SSAO at least.

kayamon11 anni fa

If you can render it once, you can render it twice. So just render a shadow buffer pass, and now you have real-time shadows. This applies to any 3D engine.

RodericDay11 anni fa

The buzzing sound of the deformer being in sync with the music is incredible.

Abraln11 anni fa

Would it also make stress calculation (for structural collapse) much easier? I have been wondering what method they are using in Everquest: Next, and how it compares to this.

Also, from CFD (Computational fluid dynamics) work I have done, cells are defined as a single point in their center. Would it be possible to do it this way and have the points connect to each other to form surfaces? Destroying a point would then cause adjacent points to generate a new surface with the now exposed point/s below. I am not sure how well this would translate though.

larzang11 anni fa

EQNext and Landmark are using a voxel engine. I can't speak to implementation on the EQNext side as it's not in a publicly testable form yet, but on the Landmark side it's been quite a while since we've seen any meaningful engine improvements and it's rather primitive in many respects.

Things like having to elaborate hacks to get sub-voxel shapes and imperfect precision with rendering intersecting edges seem like limitations of any voxel based design, while the crude handling of lighting and reflections and very short LOD distance seems to be intentional limitations for performance reasons (and understandable given average voxel counts in player-created areas).

TheLoneWolfling11 anni fa

One other issue with voxel engines is isotropy, or rather, anisotropy.

(If you don't recognize what that is, it's the property of having identical properties in all directions, or rather the lack thereof.)

In a voxel engine, you generally can't rotate things by arbitrary amounts. Ditto, physics doesn't work the same way in all directions. Ditto, things are substantially more complex to render in certain directions (look at MC rendering a diagonal wall versus a straight one, for instance.)

Though there are ways around some of this, e.g. [1]

[1] http://www.mariomarkus.com/hp5.html

irickt11 anni fa

The referenced paper seems to do this: http://graphics.berkeley.edu/papers/Parker-RTD-2009-08/Parke...

CyberDildonics11 anni fa

Would that work? It probably could. Is it a good idea? It probably is. The reason is that what you are describing could be thought of as a generalization of what is being done now.

[deleted]11 anni fa

drhodes11 anni fa

Author was talking about generating initial geometry, but I didn't see anything about 3D fractals on that page. 3D fractals are right down the hall,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsuYZg8k-Zc

gregschlom11 anni fa

I guess that's because the author is trying to make an player-editable world, and 3D fractals don't mix well with that.

It's actually quite hard to use 3D fractals in games (or any interactive application), unless you bake them to voxels or 3d meshes, but then you loose the infinite amount of detail that make fractals so interesting in the first place.

The rendering techniques used by 3d fractals are very GPU consuming and you can't really "edit" the world. But if anyone has been working on that, I'd be interested to see what they came up with.

drhodes11 anni fa

Yes, but only use fractals for initial geometry, just to get some structure and then reduce the complexity and imposing a lower limit on the recursive cell size. The routine would be run once at level creation and then the geometry would optimized.

I disagree about fractals losing all their interestingness when they aren't zoomable. There's still a slew of visual complexity. Maybe they wouldn't be as interesting, but they are oodles more interesting than spheres.

duncancarroll11 anni fa

Really interesting article; the videos + audio made it especially fun to read / watch. Impressive that all this came together in about a year and a half!

Animats11 anni fa

At last, we have enough resources in a GPU to do FEA at game speeds. Nice.