At Marathon in North Korea, Curiosity Goes a Long Way(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
At Marathon in North Korea, Curiosity Goes a Long Way
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/17/sports/at-marathon-in-north-korea-curiosity-goes-a-long-way.html?
2 comments
I hate this kind of false equivalence. It prevents anyone from discussing the actual problems, because, well, "You do it too! You're just as bad!"
No. The West is not just as bad as North Korea. The West has more freedom of speech, freedom of information, and general freedom to be human. Saying otherwise denies what North Koreans suffer, and is precisely what the North Korean government would say in a PR stunt.
No. The West is not just as bad as North Korea. The West has more freedom of speech, freedom of information, and general freedom to be human. Saying otherwise denies what North Koreans suffer, and is precisely what the North Korean government would say in a PR stunt.
> I hate this kind of false equivalence. It prevents anyone from discussing the actual problems, because, well, "You do it too! You're just as bad!"
>The West is not just as bad as North Korea. The West has more freedom of speech, freedom of information, and general freedom to be human.
On the flip-side, what you propose prevents us from seeing the problems with our own society. "At least we're not as bad as North Korea" So many times when things go bad here, when the government takes away more and more freedoms, all we hear is that at least we still have it better than Russia/North Korea/Iran/insert bogeyman.
I'm not proposing brushing their problems under the rug (nor ours). I'm simply proposing that we see people in these countries as people. There are real people in North Korea, in Iran, in Russia, who grow up, get married, have kids, have celebrations, and generally live life.
So much of our propaganda is about dehumanizing our enemies, turning them into subhuman bogeymen in order to justify whatever our governments decide to do to them/us.
And no one said anything about the west being as bad as North Korea. The only comparison made was that we're brainwashed in our perceptions of others. Which we are. Your response shows that very well, which basically parrots everything our media ever says about North Korea.
>The West is not just as bad as North Korea. The West has more freedom of speech, freedom of information, and general freedom to be human.
On the flip-side, what you propose prevents us from seeing the problems with our own society. "At least we're not as bad as North Korea" So many times when things go bad here, when the government takes away more and more freedoms, all we hear is that at least we still have it better than Russia/North Korea/Iran/insert bogeyman.
I'm not proposing brushing their problems under the rug (nor ours). I'm simply proposing that we see people in these countries as people. There are real people in North Korea, in Iran, in Russia, who grow up, get married, have kids, have celebrations, and generally live life.
So much of our propaganda is about dehumanizing our enemies, turning them into subhuman bogeymen in order to justify whatever our governments decide to do to them/us.
And no one said anything about the west being as bad as North Korea. The only comparison made was that we're brainwashed in our perceptions of others. Which we are. Your response shows that very well, which basically parrots everything our media ever says about North Korea.
> I'm simply proposing that we see people in these countries as people.
Of course. Nobody is saying we shouldn't. If you're debating this premise, you're debating a premise nobody else raised, one which only exists in your head.
> Your response shows that very well, which basically parrots everything our media ever says about North Korea.
I'm not parroting, and saying I am just convinces me you're not interested in a discussion, but in being right, and insulting people who disagree.
My conclusions are based on evidence, mostly from people who went there as tourists, shepherded by the government itself, and still saw horrible things. That, plus the refugees and the stories they tell, paint a consistently terrible picture of what life is like in North Korea.
It's possible they're all lying, all the photos are doctored, and North Korea has just as many lights as South Korea when night falls. However, that's so far from being the least hypothesis that claiming it without a lot of new evidence is absurd.
Of course. Nobody is saying we shouldn't. If you're debating this premise, you're debating a premise nobody else raised, one which only exists in your head.
> Your response shows that very well, which basically parrots everything our media ever says about North Korea.
I'm not parroting, and saying I am just convinces me you're not interested in a discussion, but in being right, and insulting people who disagree.
My conclusions are based on evidence, mostly from people who went there as tourists, shepherded by the government itself, and still saw horrible things. That, plus the refugees and the stories they tell, paint a consistently terrible picture of what life is like in North Korea.
It's possible they're all lying, all the photos are doctored, and North Korea has just as many lights as South Korea when night falls. However, that's so far from being the least hypothesis that claiming it without a lot of new evidence is absurd.
> I'm not parroting, and saying I am just convinces me you're not interested in a discussion, but in being right, and insulting people who disagree.
Then why do you say nothing of individual North Koreans, and not even touch on any of the points I raised in the first post you replied to?
I said "People need to spend more time meeting, talking to people and experiencing life, and less time in front of the TV digesting everything the media tells us to believe." and your reply was "No. The West is not just as bad as North Korea. The West has more freedom of speech, freedom of information, and general freedom to be human."
I suggested a conversation, a meeting of peoples, which is exactly what the article is about. It's not about a North Korean PR stunt, it's not about an officially sanctioned marathon. Yes, all that happened, but it's about what happens when North Koreans are allowed to meet westerners.
> My conclusions are based on evidence, mostly from people who went there as tourists, shepherded by the government itself, and still saw horrible things. That, plus the refugees and the stories they tell, paint a consistently terrible picture of what life is like in North Korea.
Again, you're debating how terrible North Korea is. That's not the point.
> It's possible they're all lying, all the photos are doctored, and North Korea has just as many lights as South Korea when night falls.
Yes, North Korea is less developed, there's less lights (granted, nearly every place on the planet has less lights, especially per square mile, than South Korea). Again, that's not the point.
All I'm interested in is seeing the PEOPLE that are on the other side. This article is interesting because of the interactions with people in an isolated, some would say repressive, state that is opening up ever so slightly to foreign interaction. That's the point.
Then why do you say nothing of individual North Koreans, and not even touch on any of the points I raised in the first post you replied to?
I said "People need to spend more time meeting, talking to people and experiencing life, and less time in front of the TV digesting everything the media tells us to believe." and your reply was "No. The West is not just as bad as North Korea. The West has more freedom of speech, freedom of information, and general freedom to be human."
I suggested a conversation, a meeting of peoples, which is exactly what the article is about. It's not about a North Korean PR stunt, it's not about an officially sanctioned marathon. Yes, all that happened, but it's about what happens when North Koreans are allowed to meet westerners.
> My conclusions are based on evidence, mostly from people who went there as tourists, shepherded by the government itself, and still saw horrible things. That, plus the refugees and the stories they tell, paint a consistently terrible picture of what life is like in North Korea.
Again, you're debating how terrible North Korea is. That's not the point.
> It's possible they're all lying, all the photos are doctored, and North Korea has just as many lights as South Korea when night falls.
Yes, North Korea is less developed, there's less lights (granted, nearly every place on the planet has less lights, especially per square mile, than South Korea). Again, that's not the point.
All I'm interested in is seeing the PEOPLE that are on the other side. This article is interesting because of the interactions with people in an isolated, some would say repressive, state that is opening up ever so slightly to foreign interaction. That's the point.
> Then why do you say nothing of individual North Koreans, and not even touch on any of the points I raised in the first post you replied to?
You said nothing of individual Westerners, and didn't touch on any of my points.
You said nothing of individual Westerners, and didn't touch on any of my points.
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I'm not actually sure I understand why children couldn't be brainwashed. I've seen extremely well controlled children to do exactly what their parents want.
The article jumps around and isn't particularly well-composed, but the point about the children is merely making the point that some of the North Koreans' emotions, reactions to the event, etc..., are genuine and not 'staged', as we are often led to believe.
As for the brainwashing, he's not saying they aren't brainwashed, only that we are as well.
As for the brainwashing, he's not saying they aren't brainwashed, only that we are as well.
Fascinating. Curious what it would take to register, I found the Pyongyang Marathon signup form here: http://www.pyongyangmarathon.com
Apparently they accept amateur runners and you can do a 10k, half marathon, or full marathon.
Apparently they accept amateur runners and you can do a 10k, half marathon, or full marathon.
> Please Type 12345 in the field below
that's the best captcha I've ever seen.
that's the best captcha I've ever seen.
the google captcha just says click to confirm you are not a robot. https://www.google.com/recaptcha/intro/index.html
Maybe the second best.
Actually the movement of your cursor alone can go a long way to telling whether someone is a bot or not[0]. The ACM linked a better article a while back that went more in depth about it, but there is more going on with that click that meets the eye.
[0]http://www.wired.com/2014/12/google-one-click-recaptcha/
Many DPRK tour companies will take care of this sort of thing for you; they run specific marathon tours. They take care of visas and travel and hotels and all the rest of it, like every tour they run, and also get you a slot on the marathon.
I could suggest the tour group I went there with, but suffice to say if you search you'll find a handful of good groups that come with recommendations.
I could suggest the tour group I went there with, but suffice to say if you search you'll find a handful of good groups that come with recommendations.
> Not everyone’s reaction could have been staged on the course, said Roeland Loof, 33, a fellow Dutch runner. Especially the children. Children do what they want.
> “In the U.S. and Europe, we’re as brainwashed” about North Korea, Mr. Loof said, “as they are here.”
Interesting the article didn't elaborate on this more, but it's true. People need to spend more time meeting, talking to people and experiencing life, and less time in front of the TV digesting everything the media (under the direction of the government) tells us to believe.