Ask HN: Any luck with Stackoverflow careers (employer side)?
10 comments
You touched the exact reason I don't use stackoverflow careers. Everybody there expects higher quality developers and all of them offer a "competitive salary". Why would I waste my time applying.
If you want better quality, offer something better in return. Offer an amazing salary. Double the market. Triple. Fuck it, a truckload of money and 72 new virgins every day. Something that justifies your increased demands and expectations. Until then, the traditional route works better for me too. Because I get the exact same "competitive offer", but employer expectations are normal instead of stupid.
If you want better quality, offer something better in return. Offer an amazing salary. Double the market. Triple. Fuck it, a truckload of money and 72 new virgins every day. Something that justifies your increased demands and expectations. Until then, the traditional route works better for me too. Because I get the exact same "competitive offer", but employer expectations are normal instead of stupid.
Perhaps it is not apparent from my original post - I am a developer... I'm trying to recruit someone for my team. Of course I've specified a salary range (which is slightly higher than the local average, based on payscale) and I've been as specific as possible on the technology and benefits...
Sadly all I got so far are applications coming from India and China from people who clearly didn't read the ad and will just apply to anything.
Sadly all I got so far are applications coming from India and China from people who clearly didn't read the ad and will just apply to anything.
Can I see your ad?
Sure, here it is: http://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs/84952/software-develop...
As noted elsewhere in the thread, please keep in mind that salaries in Europe are generally much lower compared to the States :)
As noted elsewhere in the thread, please keep in mind that salaries in Europe are generally much lower compared to the States :)
I see you've defended the salary range elsewhere in this conversation, but I second the feeling that it's low. My rule of thumb is that if an ad/recruiter says "competitive salary" it probably isn't, and it worked out here also.
I'll take your word for it that in Dublin it's a fair salary---but if you have a small hiring pool and do nothing to stand out, you shouldn't complain that SO Careers gives you few leads.
Also I wonder about your expectations. You call this a good salary "for a developer at the beginning of his career." But you are looking for C#, Angular, Python, R, Matlab, Mongo, and Hadoop. Yikes! Maybe you should cut it back to just C#, put "Junior Developer" in the title, and say you'll provide training time+budget for the other techs. Or leave the requirements and offer a range that is good for someone with 5-10 years experience.
Sorry to be so critical. Best of luck to you. . . .
I'll take your word for it that in Dublin it's a fair salary---but if you have a small hiring pool and do nothing to stand out, you shouldn't complain that SO Careers gives you few leads.
Also I wonder about your expectations. You call this a good salary "for a developer at the beginning of his career." But you are looking for C#, Angular, Python, R, Matlab, Mongo, and Hadoop. Yikes! Maybe you should cut it back to just C#, put "Junior Developer" in the title, and say you'll provide training time+budget for the other techs. Or leave the requirements and offer a range that is good for someone with 5-10 years experience.
Sorry to be so critical. Best of luck to you. . . .
No worries, every constructive feedback is welcome! Although I feel you're a bit harsh on the requires skills section - only c# and JavaScript are listed in the "needs", all the rest is divided between "nice to have" and "bonus".
We are definitely going to consider all the suggestions in this thread, including hiring remote workers and increase our investment to stand out more.
In a way, what is making me doubt the tool is that I haven't received a single application that I could even consider interviewing - just clearly copypasted messages from developers on the other side of the world. I guess I'll see it through when we switch to other candidate search platforms in a few days...
We are definitely going to consider all the suggestions in this thread, including hiring remote workers and increase our investment to stand out more.
In a way, what is making me doubt the tool is that I haven't received a single application that I could even consider interviewing - just clearly copypasted messages from developers on the other side of the world. I guess I'll see it through when we switch to other candidate search platforms in a few days...
Re "Nice to have"---acknowledged, but. . . . The junior programmers I know will still be intimidated by that list. And the intermediate/senior programmers will see it and wonder why you're offering so little. So it seems like the ad is conflicted.
If someone really needs those skills to do the job, then perhaps you can transform a negative into a positive: "New hire will receive on-the-job training time and budget in Mongo, Python, and Hadoop." That would attract a lot of people! And probably adding training is cheaper than raising the salary.
Once your ad has a clear message, perhaps you can use it in more targeted venues than SO. Imagine a CS student at Dublin University seeing a flier on their department bulletin board:
Even better would be to s/Excellent Salary/€35 - 45k/.
If someone really needs those skills to do the job, then perhaps you can transform a negative into a positive: "New hire will receive on-the-job training time and budget in Mongo, Python, and Hadoop." That would attract a lot of people! And probably adding training is cheaper than raising the salary.
Once your ad has a clear message, perhaps you can use it in more targeted venues than SO. Imagine a CS student at Dublin University seeing a flier on their department bulletin board:
Junior C# Developer Wanted
Excellent Salary
Will Train in Python, Mongo, Hadoop
Even better would be to s/Excellent Salary/€35 - 45k/.
That actually makes a lot of sense, thanks for the pointer!
I also second that the term "competitive salary" is toxic. In my experience, it just means that the Employer is only look for a bargain and not talent, plus the employer is not sure of the expectations which with lead to bumpy ride. I do not even bother reading the ad further. I have had my share of jerk employers. I would rather be jobless than be employed by a jerk.
Also, I am a developer with 4 yrs experience in C#. But from my exposure and that of others who work on C#, its more of a backend crowd and Javascript is only used for testing out Node.js or playing with JSON. I am also involved in data analysis. The only time I used Jquery was when I tried to make my data look pretty using Bootstrap and jquery comes bundled with it.
It might be the way I work is different from yours but AngularJS & C# are two different worlds and anyone who understands C# will be able to pick up Javascript by referring MozillaDN.
Now, this is just my personal opinion and I do not want to be attacked for my views. But I feel that now a days, SO has lost its quality and answers are just copy pasted. Mainly the answers have no relation to the question. Especially when you try to compare 2 technologies, the answers are more like fanboys chants than voice of experience.
Also, I am a developer with 4 yrs experience in C#. But from my exposure and that of others who work on C#, its more of a backend crowd and Javascript is only used for testing out Node.js or playing with JSON. I am also involved in data analysis. The only time I used Jquery was when I tried to make my data look pretty using Bootstrap and jquery comes bundled with it.
It might be the way I work is different from yours but AngularJS & C# are two different worlds and anyone who understands C# will be able to pick up Javascript by referring MozillaDN.
Now, this is just my personal opinion and I do not want to be attacked for my views. But I feel that now a days, SO has lost its quality and answers are just copy pasted. Mainly the answers have no relation to the question. Especially when you try to compare 2 technologies, the answers are more like fanboys chants than voice of experience.
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Are you hiring for remote workers? If not, do a search on your city and see how many jobs come up. If barely any then that's the reason (chicken egg problem because your local devs have no reason to use the site).
Otherwise consider having one of your developers re-write the job ad (HR-speak is an instant turnoff). And consider posting the salary range and explaining the hiring process.
Otherwise consider having one of your developers re-write the job ad (HR-speak is an instant turnoff). And consider posting the salary range and explaining the hiring process.
I think it depends on your location and demand for the developers with expertise in that domain.
For instance, Stockolm, Sweden is vibrant city with lots of startups and the need for good developers are constantly increasing. Stackoverflow careers is only used by very few companies and as far as i know, there has been good responses for those ads. I think its acts more like a filter compared to other routes. IMHO, There is a considerable amount of noise in traditional routes.
For instance, Stockolm, Sweden is vibrant city with lots of startups and the need for good developers are constantly increasing. Stackoverflow careers is only used by very few companies and as far as i know, there has been good responses for those ads. I think its acts more like a filter compared to other routes. IMHO, There is a considerable amount of noise in traditional routes.
That's excellent advice, thanks a lot for your perspective!
In general, higher quality candidates usually already have regular employment using "mainstream" tech at "competitive" salaries. Many of these folks have been burned by fake job leads and/or false promises -- they aren't likely to spend their time on you unless you give them a good reason to do so.
If you want to recruit those people, you need to offer higher quality compensation, and make it exceptionally clear that the claims in your job ad aren't lies or half-truths. Make it clear that you actually want to hire someone, that you want someone good, that your position is worth having, and that a candidate isn't wasting their time trying to apply for your position.
- - -
Salary and benefits are a great place to start. Another option is more interesting, less mainstream technologies. Another option is increased flexibility, lower demands, or improved career growth (for example, 35hr work weeks, or paid conferences, ability to move up within an organization). There's lots of other interesting ways to do this, but make sure you cover the fundamentals well first, before getting creative.
- - -
If you are offering a high quality position -- don't hide it behind vague words, be overwhelmingly specific so that it doesn't look like you are lying (because many other companies do).
For instance, Many people will mentally translate "competitive salary" into "low-ball salary", as that's what most companies use that phrase for. If your salary is actually competitive, you don't need to hide behind those words, you should just say the specific dollar range your offering.
Similarly, if you actually offer great benefits, be sure to list them specifically. "Great benefits" will get mentally translated to "standard or shitty benefits", because that's what most companies use that phrase for. "100% employer covered HMO medical, for yourself/spouse/dependents." or "4% employer match 401k." is always more attractive than "great benefits".
Do this for everything "We value networking and learning" means little, but writing "the company will pay 100% of the food/lodging/travel/ticket expense for one tech conference per year of your choosing" is valuable. Writing "we value work life balance" means little, but writing "we cap the work week at 35hours a week so you can spend more time with friends/family/out-of-work-activities" is valuable.
- - -
If you don't feel comfortable listing that information publicly, then you've identified your biggest roadblock to hiring. Make your offer something your not ashamed of first, before trying to grab new people ;)
If you want to recruit those people, you need to offer higher quality compensation, and make it exceptionally clear that the claims in your job ad aren't lies or half-truths. Make it clear that you actually want to hire someone, that you want someone good, that your position is worth having, and that a candidate isn't wasting their time trying to apply for your position.
- - -
Salary and benefits are a great place to start. Another option is more interesting, less mainstream technologies. Another option is increased flexibility, lower demands, or improved career growth (for example, 35hr work weeks, or paid conferences, ability to move up within an organization). There's lots of other interesting ways to do this, but make sure you cover the fundamentals well first, before getting creative.
- - -
If you are offering a high quality position -- don't hide it behind vague words, be overwhelmingly specific so that it doesn't look like you are lying (because many other companies do).
For instance, Many people will mentally translate "competitive salary" into "low-ball salary", as that's what most companies use that phrase for. If your salary is actually competitive, you don't need to hide behind those words, you should just say the specific dollar range your offering.
Similarly, if you actually offer great benefits, be sure to list them specifically. "Great benefits" will get mentally translated to "standard or shitty benefits", because that's what most companies use that phrase for. "100% employer covered HMO medical, for yourself/spouse/dependents." or "4% employer match 401k." is always more attractive than "great benefits".
Do this for everything "We value networking and learning" means little, but writing "the company will pay 100% of the food/lodging/travel/ticket expense for one tech conference per year of your choosing" is valuable. Writing "we value work life balance" means little, but writing "we cap the work week at 35hours a week so you can spend more time with friends/family/out-of-work-activities" is valuable.
- - -
If you don't feel comfortable listing that information publicly, then you've identified your biggest roadblock to hiring. Make your offer something your not ashamed of first, before trying to grab new people ;)
I never used the Ad service, but I did use the resume database and it was pretty good.
I only recommend it if:
1. You are in a location with a lot of population or are willing to hire remote
2. You are looking for mid-career developers -- (5-7 year range).
If you use it
1. Only contact people that are active -- I found the passive list not worth the time
2. Do a little research on the person and make your opening contact somewhat customized to them. They are asking for contacts -- they might get a lot, so you have to stand out.
I only recommend it if:
1. You are in a location with a lot of population or are willing to hire remote
2. You are looking for mid-career developers -- (5-7 year range).
If you use it
1. Only contact people that are active -- I found the passive list not worth the time
2. Do a little research on the person and make your opening contact somewhat customized to them. They are asking for contacts -- they might get a lot, so you have to stand out.
Do you have a link to the ad, or can you post it here? Perhaps the problem was in the wording of your ad...
Wow this makes me glad to not be in Ireland. At best about ~50k a year in USD offered and you are surprised that people are not clamoring for this incredible opportunity! New graduates in the states earn about 3 times that. Anyway hope you find someone for that price, what a bargain!
No need for the snark - salaries in Europe are a different story compared to the USA (aside from Switzerland perhaps); you can find some data here: http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Location=Dublin-Dublin/S.... Of course, you are not the only one wondering what is going on with that: http://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-salary-range-of-software-pro..., http://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-salary-of-software-engineeri....
A salary of €40,000 results in a monthly take-home of about €2,540 (http://ie.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php) - plus pension, which is a fairly good salary in a city like Dublin for a developer at the beginning of his career (of course you would starve in SF with the same money!).
A salary of €40,000 results in a monthly take-home of about €2,540 (http://ie.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php) - plus pension, which is a fairly good salary in a city like Dublin for a developer at the beginning of his career (of course you would starve in SF with the same money!).
You ask for 3 years experience in building software. That's not someone at the beginning of his career, it's mid-level. And a quick google search shows that the average for C# developers in Dublin is €45,000. So your competitive salary is actually below the market.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
The point about the salary is valid - if we are looking for someone outstanding we should be prepared to spend outstanding money.
I would contest the notion that a person who's been developing software for three years is in the middle of their career, though - even leaving the semantics aside, I see no way that's not a junior profile.
I would contest the notion that a person who's been developing software for three years is in the middle of their career, though - even leaving the semantics aside, I see no way that's not a junior profile.
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I'm a Quality Developer and my employer found me through SOC. Have been happy with everything so far.
What's your company's Joel Test score?
The ad should be ask and answer the question, Why would you want to work for us?
IMO, say 45k. Everyone reading the range knows they will be low balled. Ask yourself: is it worth saving 10k if it reduces the applicant pool?
Good luck.
The ad should be ask and answer the question, Why would you want to work for us?
IMO, say 45k. Everyone reading the range knows they will be low balled. Ask yourself: is it worth saving 10k if it reduces the applicant pool?
Good luck.
Best junior hire I made was through SO Careers. Kid w/ ~2yrs experience looking to transition from corporate to startup job. Hard worker, enthusiastic learner, awesome team member.
I boosted our Stack Overflow careers response quite considerably by posting a thread to my city's job subreddit with a link to the job. YMMV. Depends on how attractive your post is :)
Did some of you ever try to advertise a position through SO careers? And how was your experience?