Ask HN: Are there many professional devs who don't have any degree?
There's a thread here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163921 about differences between cs grads and non cs grads as devs. Which got me to thinking are there many devs who don't have any degree? I'd be curious to hear from you and how you go about getting jobs without a degree, and has not having a degree limited your career prospects?
23 comments
I'm 56, and when I started I was an electronic tech assistant. Over time I started coding and specialized in developing device drivers and then OS development. So I have a long resume with lots of experience. After Steve Jobs hired me he said that there were two people at NeXT without a degree, and that he (Steve) was one of them. So I was the other. Having said all that, it definitely would have been easier with a degree.
I have to ask - any stories you can tell?
I have too many stories...I had dinner with Edward Teller and he described what really happened at Los Alamos (saying that he would be put in prison for such disclosure), I was fired and rehired multiple times by Steve Jobs, I did a stint as an Oracle Product Manager for the core database and saw how they cook the books, I wrote code in the ATT UNIX kernel, in the Oracle source tree, and in the Apple source tree. I've been doing big data now and teach NSA, CIA,... (so I've heard stories about a level of spying that I can't repeat. But I will say that the people trying to keep us safe don't care about the laws and don't report what they are doing up the chain of command.) I taught technical classes at the School of the Americas to people who don't exist and heard more stories that I can't repeat. And I've coded while sitting beside several well-known names in programming. All of these are interesting stories.
But one for this group... Steve Jobs made yearly trips to give talks at major universities. His real goal was to convince post-grads who had innovated to drop out and port their work to our platform. Steve would fund them personally - with just enough cash to eat beans and live on friend's couches. If he thought he could sell it, he would later make them employees - and burn them out to get them to produce more and faster. After he got their work, those engineers would typically leave. So Steve would make more billions to hide offshore, and the innovators would get a salary and be burned out. A true robber baron.
Wow, that's the bit you don't hear in the papers. Ever thought of writing a book with this stuff?
Well, a lot of the stuff I really only tell friends. And even then I've had people tell me that I'm wrong (eg. they read all the books about Los Alamos - so they think they know the whole story even though it is top secret.) And there are Steve Jobs stories that really can't be repeated (involving his family and really unbelievable things.) Another example: Steve and Bill and Scott and Larry would meet to divide up the computer market. Bill & Steve broke their networking so that UNIX could have back office, Scott broke front office so that Bill could keep that, Steve got schools and DTP, Bill killed SQLServer features, Larry killed the low cost linux hardware project. Basically, we have been working in a rigged system our entire lives - with effective monopolies in all the profitable segments.
I find that one hard to believe - I can't believe Bill would open himself up to cartel laws, the others however :-) Though that would explain a few things
Bill and Steve would meet in a plane flying over the ocean - in order to prevent anyone else being involved and to prevent any monitoring. And, in general, these deals made them very rich, so the only people who could betray them had both made a lot of money and been involved in illegal activities themselves. Kind of hard to see much risk in something that is completely deniable. If I hadn't spoken to people with direct knowledge of these things, I wouldn't know it myself. I'm not sure what it would take to get people to admit to their involvement.
lol, I think you may be an exception :-), kudos to you by the way
You are right, I am an exception - and I think those other commenters would also agree that we are exceptions. At two companies everyone else in my group had PhDs. And I've rarely worked with people who don't have at least Masters degrees. So, while it is possible to do this without a degree, it takes an unusual person. (I love to read. I would sometimes spend weekends at the Stanford library reading published papers. And I built my first computer from components after reading about logic gates and getting sample parts from chip vendors.)
I'm in my 30s, no degree, my career is in infrastructure/sysadmin/networking/management, doing devops now. I've done datataking for a detector at the LHC, managed datacenters, etc. Not having a degree has never been a problem.
I don't have a degree, and have been a software developer for over 8 years. All self-taught on the internet.
I work for a technology research agency, with some absolutely amazing engineers. Former googlers, top of the field stuff. Though sometimes they are speaking far above my current knowledge, the fact that I don't have a degree is never an issue. It's just that I haven't learned x or y YET. Most of the stuff I'm learning from them, I don't think most CS students would have learnt either. I'm incredibly lucky.
The great thing about it all, is that I also don't have the rules instilled in me, which they have. Which (I think) is why I'm sometimes able to come up with more elegant solutions to problems than they are. I always say, "I'm not smarter than them, but I may be more creative".
Though the research agency asked if I had a degree, it was never an issue for them. The interesting thing is that the companies that I had spoken to who were adamant that their engineers had degrees where doing the least interesting and challenging stuff. The really interesting stuff, people would ask why I don't have a degree, but once they saw the history of work, and example of my code, that was it. It never came up again.
So, I think it might depend on what type of developer you are. If you're going to work for digital agencies, it might matter. If you're going to work for people without a technical background (who don't understand that a degree maybe doesn't mean that much), you might need one. If you're able to teach yourself enough to be more than dangerous, make a few really interesting and challenging projects come off, and most importantly, surround yourself with people you can continue to learn from, I think you'll be ok.
It seemed to me, when I was interviewing, that the importance of a degree was in inverse correlation to your expectations.
I work for a technology research agency, with some absolutely amazing engineers. Former googlers, top of the field stuff. Though sometimes they are speaking far above my current knowledge, the fact that I don't have a degree is never an issue. It's just that I haven't learned x or y YET. Most of the stuff I'm learning from them, I don't think most CS students would have learnt either. I'm incredibly lucky.
The great thing about it all, is that I also don't have the rules instilled in me, which they have. Which (I think) is why I'm sometimes able to come up with more elegant solutions to problems than they are. I always say, "I'm not smarter than them, but I may be more creative".
Though the research agency asked if I had a degree, it was never an issue for them. The interesting thing is that the companies that I had spoken to who were adamant that their engineers had degrees where doing the least interesting and challenging stuff. The really interesting stuff, people would ask why I don't have a degree, but once they saw the history of work, and example of my code, that was it. It never came up again.
So, I think it might depend on what type of developer you are. If you're going to work for digital agencies, it might matter. If you're going to work for people without a technical background (who don't understand that a degree maybe doesn't mean that much), you might need one. If you're able to teach yourself enough to be more than dangerous, make a few really interesting and challenging projects come off, and most importantly, surround yourself with people you can continue to learn from, I think you'll be ok.
It seemed to me, when I was interviewing, that the importance of a degree was in inverse correlation to your expectations.
Disclaimer: After some downtime, I got a diploma in CS due to heavy pressure from my family (who all hold a doctorate or two...)
Despite having a diploma now, all of the jobs/positions I had before were obtained on the basis that I do not have a degree.
In terms of getting jobs without a degree, it honestly hasn't been very difficult, though I don't really have the experience of someone with a degree to compare with.
I got my first computer quite late in my life, but I was very enthusiastic (obsessed really) about learning programming/web development/web security. I've been fortunate enough to run into people who for the most part, appreciate and can vouch for my knowledge. Heck, even people who after interviewing me, took a chance and convinced skeptics to give me a chance.
I won't say I was never rejected by a company simply because I do not possess a degree, but it has never really bothered me. I've worked with many great companies and teams on many great projects and if those other doors didn't close for me, I probably wouldn't have had the opportunities I had.
Something I've noticed though: To many, a degree is a sign of being able to commit and follow through with something. The lack of a degree, especially for someone as young as myself, is disconcerting/a red flag to many. And that's perfectly fine, I get the concerns. Not everyone will take the time or effort to understand why you never got a degree (financial difficulties or otherwise), they may just write you off.
That being said, I do recommend anyone who is blessed with the opportunity, to go and finish a degree. I've seen firsthand the connections some prestigious programs provide that I was never able to get, and most importantly, many people simply do not have the discipline to delve deep into the various areas necessary to allow you to be successful in this field. There's no doubt it's tiring and it's definitely no easier than following a set curriculum.
Despite having a diploma now, all of the jobs/positions I had before were obtained on the basis that I do not have a degree.
In terms of getting jobs without a degree, it honestly hasn't been very difficult, though I don't really have the experience of someone with a degree to compare with.
I got my first computer quite late in my life, but I was very enthusiastic (obsessed really) about learning programming/web development/web security. I've been fortunate enough to run into people who for the most part, appreciate and can vouch for my knowledge. Heck, even people who after interviewing me, took a chance and convinced skeptics to give me a chance.
I won't say I was never rejected by a company simply because I do not possess a degree, but it has never really bothered me. I've worked with many great companies and teams on many great projects and if those other doors didn't close for me, I probably wouldn't have had the opportunities I had.
Something I've noticed though: To many, a degree is a sign of being able to commit and follow through with something. The lack of a degree, especially for someone as young as myself, is disconcerting/a red flag to many. And that's perfectly fine, I get the concerns. Not everyone will take the time or effort to understand why you never got a degree (financial difficulties or otherwise), they may just write you off.
That being said, I do recommend anyone who is blessed with the opportunity, to go and finish a degree. I've seen firsthand the connections some prestigious programs provide that I was never able to get, and most importantly, many people simply do not have the discipline to delve deep into the various areas necessary to allow you to be successful in this field. There's no doubt it's tiring and it's definitely no easier than following a set curriculum.
I started out as an electronics tech dropout (long story) in the 90s, apprenticing with a small engineering company via a gov't-funded job-creation program (Canada, EI-based). I was lucky to work closely with a couple of young engineers; programming Z80s, wire-wrapping prototypes. When the www came online, my engineer colleagues had me working on our first company web-page, so that got me introduced to html/javascript/css.
Enrolled in CS program at uni in 2000, got a programming job with a company building an "online shopping mall" (in the model of [Shopify](http://shopify.com). The lead-programmer there was 19, I was 26. I started learning MySQL on day 1. Introduced OO-perl to young kid. I implored my boss-at-the-time "we need to hire some young CS grads, and he did. One guy in particular was much more talented all-around, I found, so I quickly encouraged him to take the reins and lead us.
I've been self-incorporated and working from home for ~5 years now. I specialize in Ruby, Rails, complex Javascript SPAs and Cordova (including custom plugins on the native Android & iOS side).
I made a name for myself in the Sencha/ExtJS universe (which is fading now), but I got a lot of work directed at me by taking part in that community.
I've always been pretty active in OSS projects and I'm always managing some of my own for niche applications, which seem to gather a small audience. That's been pretty important over the years, getting someone hooked on your OSS code.
If you're doing Cordova apps and you need battery-efficient background location-tracking on iOS/Android, Google: "background geolocation", I might be the 1st couple results :)
I don't really do much hunting for jobs these days, they come to me instead (so far). When my plate is full, I raise my rate higher as a filter.
I should add, while I don't have a CS degree, I did have 1 year college electronics in addition to 3 years of vocational high-school electronics which gave me the fighting chance.
Enrolled in CS program at uni in 2000, got a programming job with a company building an "online shopping mall" (in the model of [Shopify](http://shopify.com). The lead-programmer there was 19, I was 26. I started learning MySQL on day 1. Introduced OO-perl to young kid. I implored my boss-at-the-time "we need to hire some young CS grads, and he did. One guy in particular was much more talented all-around, I found, so I quickly encouraged him to take the reins and lead us.
I've been self-incorporated and working from home for ~5 years now. I specialize in Ruby, Rails, complex Javascript SPAs and Cordova (including custom plugins on the native Android & iOS side).
I made a name for myself in the Sencha/ExtJS universe (which is fading now), but I got a lot of work directed at me by taking part in that community.
I've always been pretty active in OSS projects and I'm always managing some of my own for niche applications, which seem to gather a small audience. That's been pretty important over the years, getting someone hooked on your OSS code.
If you're doing Cordova apps and you need battery-efficient background location-tracking on iOS/Android, Google: "background geolocation", I might be the 1st couple results :)
I don't really do much hunting for jobs these days, they come to me instead (so far). When my plate is full, I raise my rate higher as a filter.
I should add, while I don't have a CS degree, I did have 1 year college electronics in addition to 3 years of vocational high-school electronics which gave me the fighting chance.
I went to an interview once, for a company that makes online games (gambling). We spoke about my education and lack of a degree. They seemed to be saying how it important it is for them that the team is good at maths. I said I had a decent mathematical grounding, and understanding, and while I'd not be able to instantly answer maths questions I'd be able to think about how to answer it, and research the problem.
I was posed a question... how would you simulate the appearance of a fruit machine wheel (3D rendering). I explained that I did not have the answer with all the details already, but probably would not need to know them all either and could use what's already been done to a large extent. This was put to me as the kind of thing that an employee there would be expected to know. I asked my two interviewers what the answer was, how they would solve such a problem. There was a lot of umming and arring for a few (uncomfortable for them) minutes. I found it very funny.
I was posed a question... how would you simulate the appearance of a fruit machine wheel (3D rendering). I explained that I did not have the answer with all the details already, but probably would not need to know them all either and could use what's already been done to a large extent. This was put to me as the kind of thing that an employee there would be expected to know. I asked my two interviewers what the answer was, how they would solve such a problem. There was a lot of umming and arring for a few (uncomfortable for them) minutes. I found it very funny.
I've been in the industry for about 8 years now, and not having a degree hasn't made any measurable difference to my career prospects (in the long run).
Actually, it's pretty routine for a boss or coworker to ask me a year or two into a new job "hey, what university did you say you went to?"
My response: I didn't go to school.
Starting out though, it was a little tricky: I was making $27,000 as the sole developer at little photo-lab in downtown Dallas, TX. However, once you get a year or two of experience down on paper, and assuming you kicked ass those first years, not having a college education isn't a problem.
Actually, it's pretty routine for a boss or coworker to ask me a year or two into a new job "hey, what university did you say you went to?"
My response: I didn't go to school.
Starting out though, it was a little tricky: I was making $27,000 as the sole developer at little photo-lab in downtown Dallas, TX. However, once you get a year or two of experience down on paper, and assuming you kicked ass those first years, not having a college education isn't a problem.
I don't have a degree, but I served in the Marines as a Systems Analyst, where I got a couple of Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals for several pieces of software that I wrote. I think for that reason, most job prospects seem to ignore the fact that I don't have a degree
Most devs that I've noticed as really passionate and good at what they do, don't have a degree. That's just my experience at half a dozen startups, but a majority of the devs I've met thus far don't have a degree.
My experience is that many who doesn't have a degree(including myself) gets an offer during their studies from their part time job for example, and then continue working there for some time and not going back to university
Thanks folks, it's really interesting to hear the road less travelled. Any others?
I don't have a degree. I make an above market salary in NY for a software engineer. I have worked as a developer, and now I specialize in software security. I'm very happy with my career, and I haven't considered going to school at all. I'm especially happy not having any debt (I don't brag about this though, because I think it's off putting and I still think most people should get a degree). I recognize that I'm an exception however, and I wouldn't recommend someone follow my path unless they're very good at exercising control over their time without supervision.
A few notes:
1. I'm good at what I do, and I constantly try to improve my skillset. I think that comes across to people, so no one has ever expressed any concern with my education whatsoever. In fact, anyone who I have spoken to about it has explicitly stated they don't care (this goes for people at large recognizable BigCos to small Series As).
2. I network very well. I learned early on that having a mentor and knowing how to be charismatic and connect with influential people is better than spending time fixing up your rèsumè and then submitting it to a job ad. I've also found these people don't care about the credentials.
3. I still recommend most people go to school. People have this tendency to see exceptions to the rule such as myself and think, "Hey, look, you don't need school!"
No, you don't, but how else with you learn? You need a plan. You need a passion. You need discipline. Those words are overused a lot, but to cultivate a skill like programming outside the classroom really does require passion. I sat down for hours a day when I was in high school, reverse engineering things I came across, reimplementing things, tinkering, reading from the same algorithms textbooks people use in top schools.
To be honest, the only real difference is that I read my textbooks from home and didn't pay as much for them. That's the sort of person you need to be. Again, not bragging, just a real point - evaluate if you are this sort of person with this sort of dedication before you drop the regimented structure of school.
4. I'm very open about my background and don't hide it. It's never been a problem and I specifically don't hide it because I'm confident in my skillset. For what it's worth, I still receive recruiting inquiries on LinkedIn several times a week.
5. You do not need to go to school to learn almost every discipline of what is typically called "software engineering." You can learn almost all of computer science online. You have in your pocket the most self empowering tool since the invention of the printing press. You can, at a whim, learn every single algorithm. You can learn to implement every algorithm, and their corresponding time complexities, within six months (three months if you are really studious).
Think about what you can do with three hours of free time a day and the entire internet at your fingertips. I walked through learning several programming languages, algorithms and data structures, algorithm design, optimization, computer architecture, operating sytems, networking, etc. etc. by spending a few hours every single day. The difficulty is not the availability of the information, the difficulty forcing yourself to just sit down and do it.
My bottom line is that it's still better to go to school. For example, I still recommend my young relatives go to university, because I think it's very rare for people to really succeed in teaching themselves without structure imposed on them. But on the other hand I do feel very happy about my choices because I know my skills are strong, my knowledge isn't lacking and I saved quite a bit of money. I don't regret it at all. It's never held me back, and it doesn't have to hold anyone back, but you need the discipline and passion to make it work.
A few notes:
1. I'm good at what I do, and I constantly try to improve my skillset. I think that comes across to people, so no one has ever expressed any concern with my education whatsoever. In fact, anyone who I have spoken to about it has explicitly stated they don't care (this goes for people at large recognizable BigCos to small Series As).
2. I network very well. I learned early on that having a mentor and knowing how to be charismatic and connect with influential people is better than spending time fixing up your rèsumè and then submitting it to a job ad. I've also found these people don't care about the credentials.
3. I still recommend most people go to school. People have this tendency to see exceptions to the rule such as myself and think, "Hey, look, you don't need school!"
No, you don't, but how else with you learn? You need a plan. You need a passion. You need discipline. Those words are overused a lot, but to cultivate a skill like programming outside the classroom really does require passion. I sat down for hours a day when I was in high school, reverse engineering things I came across, reimplementing things, tinkering, reading from the same algorithms textbooks people use in top schools.
To be honest, the only real difference is that I read my textbooks from home and didn't pay as much for them. That's the sort of person you need to be. Again, not bragging, just a real point - evaluate if you are this sort of person with this sort of dedication before you drop the regimented structure of school.
4. I'm very open about my background and don't hide it. It's never been a problem and I specifically don't hide it because I'm confident in my skillset. For what it's worth, I still receive recruiting inquiries on LinkedIn several times a week.
5. You do not need to go to school to learn almost every discipline of what is typically called "software engineering." You can learn almost all of computer science online. You have in your pocket the most self empowering tool since the invention of the printing press. You can, at a whim, learn every single algorithm. You can learn to implement every algorithm, and their corresponding time complexities, within six months (three months if you are really studious).
Think about what you can do with three hours of free time a day and the entire internet at your fingertips. I walked through learning several programming languages, algorithms and data structures, algorithm design, optimization, computer architecture, operating sytems, networking, etc. etc. by spending a few hours every single day. The difficulty is not the availability of the information, the difficulty forcing yourself to just sit down and do it.
My bottom line is that it's still better to go to school. For example, I still recommend my young relatives go to university, because I think it's very rare for people to really succeed in teaching themselves without structure imposed on them. But on the other hand I do feel very happy about my choices because I know my skills are strong, my knowledge isn't lacking and I saved quite a bit of money. I don't regret it at all. It's never held me back, and it doesn't have to hold anyone back, but you need the discipline and passion to make it work.
Thanks for sharing, I'm pleased to hear you recommend going to school, it seems there's an exceptional few who can make it without a degree. I'd thought there'd be more, maybe they have better things to do on their weekend :-)