Ask HN: Should I Quit My Job?
14 comments
Quit your job. Find another one. Leave your current one off your resume. Mark Suster talks about this here:
http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/22/never-hire-job...
"If you worked somewhere for 6 months leave it out. It’s not worth it. Listing it is a negative and unless it was interning for Ted Kennedy or Ronald Reagan it’s most likely a liability. A resume does not require you to list absolutely everything you’ve ever done. Do not lie. If asked in an interview about the gap you can simply say, “I joined a company for 6 months that was a total mistake. I regretted it. I figured I didn’t accomplish enough to put it on my resume. Trying to make what I did there sound good on a resume would have been false."
http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/22/never-hire-job...
"If you worked somewhere for 6 months leave it out. It’s not worth it. Listing it is a negative and unless it was interning for Ted Kennedy or Ronald Reagan it’s most likely a liability. A resume does not require you to list absolutely everything you’ve ever done. Do not lie. If asked in an interview about the gap you can simply say, “I joined a company for 6 months that was a total mistake. I regretted it. I figured I didn’t accomplish enough to put it on my resume. Trying to make what I did there sound good on a resume would have been false."
Agreed. I did a 6 week stint at a largish software company. When I saw what was going on there, I couldn't get out fast enough. That doesn't feature on my resume. I was 9 months at another job. That one I did put on my resume.
Only once did I get a real sense that the interviewer was concerned about my job hopping history, but understood my reasons for leaving and at each point, I made sure to explain what I had learned from the experience and took responsibility for my role in it. Coincidentally or not, that is the job I stayed at the longest. They were filtering for candidates who would stay and grow at the company and created an environment that encouraged it.
So, if you are looking to do this, have a really good reason and be sure to take a lesson from it as well as claim responsibility if you entered the role with unrealistic expectations.
Only once did I get a real sense that the interviewer was concerned about my job hopping history, but understood my reasons for leaving and at each point, I made sure to explain what I had learned from the experience and took responsibility for my role in it. Coincidentally or not, that is the job I stayed at the longest. They were filtering for candidates who would stay and grow at the company and created an environment that encouraged it.
So, if you are looking to do this, have a really good reason and be sure to take a lesson from it as well as claim responsibility if you entered the role with unrealistic expectations.
Very much agreed with this.
Try not to make a habit of this, though. One or two mistakes here and there is fine, but a pattern of successive "mistakes" will likely raise flags with interviewers.
But for a single mistake? Whatever. Any interviewer who doesn't understand that is probably someone you don't want to work with anyway.
A quick anecdote: I actually do have a 5-month stint at a company on my resume. In the end I decided that the product and culture wasn't a good fit for me, and I left, but I had already accomplished something worthwhile there in that time, and felt that it actually was a plus to list it.
So overall, as the parent points out, it is entirely up to you what you feel is useful to list on your resume. Just don't lie, and if asked in person, tell it like it is.
Try not to make a habit of this, though. One or two mistakes here and there is fine, but a pattern of successive "mistakes" will likely raise flags with interviewers.
But for a single mistake? Whatever. Any interviewer who doesn't understand that is probably someone you don't want to work with anyway.
A quick anecdote: I actually do have a 5-month stint at a company on my resume. In the end I decided that the product and culture wasn't a good fit for me, and I left, but I had already accomplished something worthwhile there in that time, and felt that it actually was a plus to list it.
So overall, as the parent points out, it is entirely up to you what you feel is useful to list on your resume. Just don't lie, and if asked in person, tell it like it is.
I'm in an almost identical situation. calcsam is correct. Leave, don't put it on your resume, don't lie about it, find another job where you'll be challenged. That's what I'm doing. My rationale is that it's very difficult to fight organizational inertia from the bottom, so instead find an organization that's moving in the direction you want your career to move in.
The market is in our favor right now and my suggestion would be to take advantage of that to build up some 'career capital' (and hopefully some cash money capital) to see you through whatever's coming next.
BTW 'career capital' is a phrase I lifted from Cal Newport's "So Good They Can't Ignore You", which was an interesting read regarding passion and career development. I'd recommend it, it's pretty light reading.
The market is in our favor right now and my suggestion would be to take advantage of that to build up some 'career capital' (and hopefully some cash money capital) to see you through whatever's coming next.
BTW 'career capital' is a phrase I lifted from Cal Newport's "So Good They Can't Ignore You", which was an interesting read regarding passion and career development. I'd recommend it, it's pretty light reading.
My question to you: "Do you believe in the product or mission of your current company?" If you do, then I would recommend against leaving at this point. You might be able to change the culture.
Most of my experience is rebuilding software that's in really deep. Often the team is reluctant to make changes. What I do is make changes anyway. But I start small. I add unit tests around existing code. I try to cover exceptional cases in those unit tests (bad input, network loss, etc). I can then say, "At least you know how component X works".
From unit tests, I branch out to refactoring code that calls that unit. Often this is changing static method calls into objects with dependency injection. While I'm at this, I unit test the changed components.
Eventually, I get the code up to higher standard. Along the way I can start to produce artifacts that I take to management. Code coverage, # of passing tests, # of failing tests, who broke the build. Team members often want to see these too. Those who still don't want change either leave or come around due to managerial pressure (a valid use of management).
You might be able to do this as well. You might not. It could be that best you can do is carve out a little fiefdom of standards sanity. If you decide to leave after your year's up, fine. You now have experience in the field with a modern tool set. If you improved the conditions, you might re-evaluate.
Most of my experience is rebuilding software that's in really deep. Often the team is reluctant to make changes. What I do is make changes anyway. But I start small. I add unit tests around existing code. I try to cover exceptional cases in those unit tests (bad input, network loss, etc). I can then say, "At least you know how component X works".
From unit tests, I branch out to refactoring code that calls that unit. Often this is changing static method calls into objects with dependency injection. While I'm at this, I unit test the changed components.
Eventually, I get the code up to higher standard. Along the way I can start to produce artifacts that I take to management. Code coverage, # of passing tests, # of failing tests, who broke the build. Team members often want to see these too. Those who still don't want change either leave or come around due to managerial pressure (a valid use of management).
You might be able to do this as well. You might not. It could be that best you can do is carve out a little fiefdom of standards sanity. If you decide to leave after your year's up, fine. You now have experience in the field with a modern tool set. If you improved the conditions, you might re-evaluate.
Definitely. I'll point out though that my goal is not experience with this "modern" tool set. I'm plenty comfortable with the tool set we have, and the technology we use. It's the way in which we use it that's frustrating. My goal was to learn and continue growing as a developer, while building something I care about. I don't feel I'm getting the first part of that.
I feel as though I've been trying, in my short time here, exactly what you're suggesting here. It turns out that it has been a fairly major source of friction, because small incremental changes are really hard to float unless there is consensus on where the future of the codebase is going, which we certainly don't have. So a lot of the changes I try to "make anyway" seem to meet push-back from my team, despite my many efforts to argue for long-term goals, or even the value of the single incremental piece. The friction I mentioned surrounds this push-back, but the feeling I'm getting is that this push-back is based in an unwillingness to try new ideas. As I mentioned, maybe this is due to my lack of experience convincing people of new ideas, which makes me think I need even more to be in a learning environment.
I feel as though I've been trying, in my short time here, exactly what you're suggesting here. It turns out that it has been a fairly major source of friction, because small incremental changes are really hard to float unless there is consensus on where the future of the codebase is going, which we certainly don't have. So a lot of the changes I try to "make anyway" seem to meet push-back from my team, despite my many efforts to argue for long-term goals, or even the value of the single incremental piece. The friction I mentioned surrounds this push-back, but the feeling I'm getting is that this push-back is based in an unwillingness to try new ideas. As I mentioned, maybe this is due to my lack of experience convincing people of new ideas, which makes me think I need even more to be in a learning environment.
> Two jobs in under two years? I think I could explain, but I might not even get that chance.
Just a note here- I agree with most other people that if you work at a place for a short while and leave, I would just leave it off your resume. You will get asked about that in interviews, and in my experience giving interviews it's a red flag when a candidate "goes negative" about a current or previous employer; even if the reasons are totally valid (which yours sound like they are) it can come off as bitter or petty in the context of an interview and should be avoided if possible. There are ways to talk about the kind of employer you're looking for without directly maligning a previous one.
Just a note here- I agree with most other people that if you work at a place for a short while and leave, I would just leave it off your resume. You will get asked about that in interviews, and in my experience giving interviews it's a red flag when a candidate "goes negative" about a current or previous employer; even if the reasons are totally valid (which yours sound like they are) it can come off as bitter or petty in the context of an interview and should be avoided if possible. There are ways to talk about the kind of employer you're looking for without directly maligning a previous one.
I'll let you in on a little secret. I've worked at 5 different companies over the past 2 years. On my resume, you'll see 2.
Why do I do this? Those companies I was at for a month on short-term projects don't add any intrinsic value, aside from an additional term in my skill soup, if that. What should I say, I picked up a short term gig to pay the bills? Isn't that why we work in the first place? It's less awkward in interviews, as I don't have to explain the employment gap or what made me leave XYZ Corp.
The resume is a sales flyer. You don't get the full story. You get just enough information to get you interested enough to come in to the showroom to check the car out in person, maybe take it for a test drive.
Why do I do this? Those companies I was at for a month on short-term projects don't add any intrinsic value, aside from an additional term in my skill soup, if that. What should I say, I picked up a short term gig to pay the bills? Isn't that why we work in the first place? It's less awkward in interviews, as I don't have to explain the employment gap or what made me leave XYZ Corp.
The resume is a sales flyer. You don't get the full story. You get just enough information to get you interested enough to come in to the showroom to check the car out in person, maybe take it for a test drive.
Or you can just say you worked for 'bitshepherd consulting', where you were the 'lead developer' on projects for 'multiple clients' :-)
> Maybe I'm just not good at convincing people on new ideas, but to me, that just speaks to how much more I have yet to learn.
The obstacle is the way to professional development. Read up on how to sell your ideas and leadership, put those lessons into daily practice. Use this opportunity as a personal learning lab for at least another 6 months. Don't under estimate the mental game aspect here. Ultimately, quitting and moving on is easy.
The obstacle is the way to professional development. Read up on how to sell your ideas and leadership, put those lessons into daily practice. Use this opportunity as a personal learning lab for at least another 6 months. Don't under estimate the mental game aspect here. Ultimately, quitting and moving on is easy.
Agree this could be a good approach, although maybe not necessarily suffering through six months. This is your chance to rock the boat, and get some practice selling your ideas. What do you have to lose? If it's something you care about, make an attempt to get people on board with the changes you want to make. Re-evaluate in a month and bail if people refuse to cooperate. If you voice your concerns clearly now they will at least understand why you're leaving if you do. You might be able to gain their respect without burning any bridges.
if you do not have a family commitment and visa issue, do what makes you happy.
Life is just so short. in fact, you probably only have <90,000 hours left to work for your entire life from now.
Life is just so short. in fact, you probably only have <90,000 hours left to work for your entire life from now.
How much experience do you have as a developer?
I'm currently in my second job. That large tech company was my first. Before that I was finishing my degree.
The software quality here is a major step down from my last company. I expected this to a certain extent, but I'm realizing now that the difference is so drastic that I don't even feel I'm learning or growing as a developer right now. There exists a complacency among the team with throwing code at the next task in the queue until "it works" and then moving on. In that regard, I feel alone in my endeavors to better the codebase, and my efforts get quickly overshadowed by the other developers because there's no management structure for aligning on a clear path to betterment. I think the problem is actually more nuanced than complacency - I think some of the developers here truly believe they're writing high quality solutions. I feel like an arrogant asshole for even having this opinion, but it worries me that I'm working with people who don't know they're just digging a deeper hole, and who will defend their ideas eternally. Maybe I'm just not good at convincing people on new ideas, but to me, that just speaks to how much more I have yet to learn, which makes me think I need to be in an environment where I'm still learning.