Vaccinating the World's Top Predators May Be the Only Way to Save Them(motherboard.vice.com)
motherboard.vice.com
Vaccinating the World's Top Predators May Be the Only Way to Save Them
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/vaccinating-the-worlds-top-predators-may-be-the-only-way-to-save-them
49 comments
That may have been true before human beings conquered the Earth. Here are sixty more recent extinctions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Species_made_extinct_b...
Brace yourself for the HN downvotes!
The video can have another hidden meaning (apart that the constatation that humans are inherently stupid). This ill tiger is acting like a poisoned predator. The fact is that top predators are being systematically erradicated in a lot of places and to blame a virus as main cause is as convenient as naive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYN0z52x4pw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLaLUyH4-vo
9 of each 10 wild lions living in Africa 60 years ago were exterminated in just one human generation. Our generation. We will not save them only with vaccines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYN0z52x4pw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLaLUyH4-vo
9 of each 10 wild lions living in Africa 60 years ago were exterminated in just one human generation. Our generation. We will not save them only with vaccines.
Maybe NOT vaccinating any of us real top predators may be the best way to save the rest of the predators.
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Could vaccinating these animals effect evolution in some way? Species have to die out for new species to come to the forefront; is it right for us to try and change that? My impulse is to say, "Yes, vaccinate them and hopefully eradicate this virus," but there is always that second thought.
What do you think is the downside? Affecting evolution is kind of the point (we don't want them to go extinct).
What would be the downside of having dinosaurs around? What would be the downside of me being a Homo habilis and carving this message into the side of a large rock?
Whenever humans meddle with the environment there are drastic unintended consequences. I get it, they're charismatic animals and that's probably why I'm being downvoted, but I don't think this is a particularly unreasonable dissenting opinion.
Whenever humans meddle with the environment there are drastic unintended consequences. I get it, they're charismatic animals and that's probably why I'm being downvoted, but I don't think this is a particularly unreasonable dissenting opinion.
What would be the downside of having dinosaurs around?
Dinosaurs couldn't possibly still be around. They existed in an era with a much more dense atmosphere and a much higher concentration of oxygen (30% vs 16%, iirc). The type of lung they had and the size of body they had -- they would suffocate here in our current atmosphere. It would be like a really bad case of altitude sickness.
I think that's a very different scenario from what this article talks about, where humans have basically created this virus by domesticating dogs and having a fairly homogenous population of domesticated animals globally and now there are several billion humans...etc....and it is killing wild animals that shouldn't be all getting exposed to the same illness.
I really think this is a very different thing from natural extinction of dinosaurs.
Dinosaurs couldn't possibly still be around. They existed in an era with a much more dense atmosphere and a much higher concentration of oxygen (30% vs 16%, iirc). The type of lung they had and the size of body they had -- they would suffocate here in our current atmosphere. It would be like a really bad case of altitude sickness.
I think that's a very different scenario from what this article talks about, where humans have basically created this virus by domesticating dogs and having a fairly homogenous population of domesticated animals globally and now there are several billion humans...etc....and it is killing wild animals that shouldn't be all getting exposed to the same illness.
I really think this is a very different thing from natural extinction of dinosaurs.
Wait, but what if the lions get autism?
A tiger with down syndrome made the news a while back.
http://www.pbh2.com/wtf/meet-kenny-an-inbred-white-tiger/
http://www.pbh2.com/wtf/meet-kenny-an-inbred-white-tiger/
Except that Down syndrome isn't the result of inbreeding. Down syndrome is a very specific genetic disorder.
That's a dumbed-down explanation from a third-rate viral site, which exists solely to generate clicks from Facebook, and not an actual medical or scientific description of the tiger's condition.
That's a dumbed-down explanation from a third-rate viral site, which exists solely to generate clicks from Facebook, and not an actual medical or scientific description of the tiger's condition.
People have suggested that Grumpy Cat might have a feline version of Down Syndrome as well.
Edit: It looks like the very definition of Down Syndrome (three copies of the 21st chromosome instead of two) doesn't really allow for an "animal version", since the 21st chromosome is specific to humans.
Edit: It looks like the very definition of Down Syndrome (three copies of the 21st chromosome instead of two) doesn't really allow for an "animal version", since the 21st chromosome is specific to humans.
Looks like a hyenaiger to me.
That's really sad. :*(
I am kind of moderately anti-vax, but reading the article makes me feel this is worth a shot because of this:
Previous attempts to control the spread of CDV into wild populations focused on stopping the virus at the presumed source—domestic dogs. Unfortunately, research now shows that top predators are probably contracting CDV from smaller wild animals that act as intermediaries. The simplest solution, then—ensuring that humans vaccinate their pets—may no longer be an effective option.
Edit: So admitting to being moderately anit-vax is adequate reason for being downvoted to hell, even though it was given as a qualifier to strengthen my statement that this plan to vaccinate big cats sounds like it has merit.
Wow.
Previous attempts to control the spread of CDV into wild populations focused on stopping the virus at the presumed source—domestic dogs. Unfortunately, research now shows that top predators are probably contracting CDV from smaller wild animals that act as intermediaries. The simplest solution, then—ensuring that humans vaccinate their pets—may no longer be an effective option.
Edit: So admitting to being moderately anit-vax is adequate reason for being downvoted to hell, even though it was given as a qualifier to strengthen my statement that this plan to vaccinate big cats sounds like it has merit.
Wow.
I'm curious what is the basis for being anti-vax? Is there science behind that notion? To me it appears irrational, but I'm up for an alternative take out of curiosity.
Sometimes I wonder why people with this conviction dont just move to locations of low vaccination. I hear places in SE Asia, some parts of Africa have low vaccination rates, more out of poverty than conviction, but low rates non the less
Sometimes I wonder why people with this conviction dont just move to locations of low vaccination. I hear places in SE Asia, some parts of Africa have low vaccination rates, more out of poverty than conviction, but low rates non the less
> I'm curious what is the basis for being anti-vax? Is there science behind that notion?
There was one study which claimed that vaccines were dangerous, which was both unscientific and unethical, performed by someone with an agenda, and which was retracted.
Now it's all about doubt. People are saying 'we just don't know what they do' (we do!), or 'what if they cause autism' (they don't!) or 'it's a personal choice' (it's not!).
It doesn't help that in the US, the medical industry is for-profit, the pharmaceutical industry runs rampant, and the public doesn't trust either one because it doesn't have their best interests in mind. That leads to lots of FUD about vaccines (and modern medicine in general) which is difficult to combat.
There was one study which claimed that vaccines were dangerous, which was both unscientific and unethical, performed by someone with an agenda, and which was retracted.
Now it's all about doubt. People are saying 'we just don't know what they do' (we do!), or 'what if they cause autism' (they don't!) or 'it's a personal choice' (it's not!).
It doesn't help that in the US, the medical industry is for-profit, the pharmaceutical industry runs rampant, and the public doesn't trust either one because it doesn't have their best interests in mind. That leads to lots of FUD about vaccines (and modern medicine in general) which is difficult to combat.
I have a deadly, incurable medical condition for which an annual flu vax is routinely prescribed. I was diagnosed late in life, just before I turned 36. Doctors told me bluntly "People like you don't get well. Symptom management is the name of the game." But it is genetic, so I was born with it, so I felt strongly that now that we knew why I was always sickly, we should be able to do a better job of dealing with my health than the years before that when I knew something wasn't right but did not know what and doctors acted like I was a hypochondriac.
In part due to happenstance, in part because doctors were not really doing much for me, I sort of fell into a lot of alternative med stuff. I began getting gradually healthier, even though I had spent a year at death's door. All of the people who were actually helping me get stronger while doctors wrote me off for dead were very strongly anti-vax.
The first two or three years following my diagnosis, when I was prescribed the flu shot, my doctor said 'Sign here and roll up your sleeve." and gave it to me right then and there. Then one year my check-up was a few weeks before the vaccine was available, so he wrote me a prescription. By then, I was already seeing a lot of gains from the "crazy" alternative med stuff I was doing. It was easy enough to just not get that prescription filled. I haven't had another vaccine since then.
Fourteen years ago, I nearly died and spent 3.5 years in bed. Now, I walk four or more hours a day and I am gradually getting my life back.
I am not on some campaign to convince people that vaccines are bad. I don't have strong feelings one way or the other. For complex reasons, I happen to be in a position where I can reasonably comfortably fence-sit on this issue and not develop a strong opinion. But, as things stand now, I don't plan to get any more flu shots. I think I am better off using other tactics to protect my health.
In part due to happenstance, in part because doctors were not really doing much for me, I sort of fell into a lot of alternative med stuff. I began getting gradually healthier, even though I had spent a year at death's door. All of the people who were actually helping me get stronger while doctors wrote me off for dead were very strongly anti-vax.
The first two or three years following my diagnosis, when I was prescribed the flu shot, my doctor said 'Sign here and roll up your sleeve." and gave it to me right then and there. Then one year my check-up was a few weeks before the vaccine was available, so he wrote me a prescription. By then, I was already seeing a lot of gains from the "crazy" alternative med stuff I was doing. It was easy enough to just not get that prescription filled. I haven't had another vaccine since then.
Fourteen years ago, I nearly died and spent 3.5 years in bed. Now, I walk four or more hours a day and I am gradually getting my life back.
I am not on some campaign to convince people that vaccines are bad. I don't have strong feelings one way or the other. For complex reasons, I happen to be in a position where I can reasonably comfortably fence-sit on this issue and not develop a strong opinion. But, as things stand now, I don't plan to get any more flu shots. I think I am better off using other tactics to protect my health.
Cool. I downvoted your original comment but this is a good explanation of where you're at.
I suspect that alternative medicine is better at symptom management, giving quality of life, and uplifting spirits. Doctors often have a too mechanical view of humans.
Nevertheless, I suspect that your disease weakens your immune system, and _for that specific symptom_ the flu vaccine was prescribed. The flu vaccine was not meant as a general quality of life improvement.
And along these lines, vaccines and alternative medicine are not mutually exclusive. They solve different things.
Here's something to try: Get your flu vaccine while continuing your alternative medicine? My hypothesis is that there will be no downside except for pissing off your alternative medicine doctorfolk.
You should also read up on how vaccines are made and what are contained in them, and then get into a discussion about vaccines with your alternative medicine people. You'll be astounded at their ignorance. Last year I was at an engagement party with an anti-vax crowd in Olympia, WA. They don't even know the first basics. But maybe I should check my B.S in Biochemistry privilege.
I suspect that alternative medicine is better at symptom management, giving quality of life, and uplifting spirits. Doctors often have a too mechanical view of humans.
Nevertheless, I suspect that your disease weakens your immune system, and _for that specific symptom_ the flu vaccine was prescribed. The flu vaccine was not meant as a general quality of life improvement.
And along these lines, vaccines and alternative medicine are not mutually exclusive. They solve different things.
Here's something to try: Get your flu vaccine while continuing your alternative medicine? My hypothesis is that there will be no downside except for pissing off your alternative medicine doctorfolk.
You should also read up on how vaccines are made and what are contained in them, and then get into a discussion about vaccines with your alternative medicine people. You'll be astounded at their ignorance. Last year I was at an engagement party with an anti-vax crowd in Olympia, WA. They don't even know the first basics. But maybe I should check my B.S in Biochemistry privilege.
Cool. I downvoted your original comment but this is a good explanation of where you're at.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Flu vaccines aren't about protecting your health, they're about protecting everyone's health. By not vaccinating, you're contributing to the elimination of herd immunity[1], ensuring that people who cannot vaccinate for whatever reasons (too young, compromised immune system, egg allergy, etc) are at a significantly higher risk of contracting the disease and putting their lives at risk.
Unfortunately, this isn't one of those situations where you can fence-sit, because fence-sitting means you don't get vaccinated, which undermines public health and allows for the accelerated spread of diseases that can cripple or kill other people.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
Unfortunately, this isn't one of those situations where you can fence-sit, because fence-sitting means you don't get vaccinated, which undermines public health and allows for the accelerated spread of diseases that can cripple or kill other people.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
Partly disagree in this case.
So few people take the flu vaccine that there's no possibility of establishing general herd immunity, even if the experts guess right every flu season (this year they didn't for the Northern Hemisphere, or at least the US). On the smaller scale it's wise, e.g. now that I'm living with my 81 year old father, partly to help take care of him, that's an additional reason I take the vaccine.
So few people take the flu vaccine that there's no possibility of establishing general herd immunity, even if the experts guess right every flu season (this year they didn't for the Northern Hemisphere, or at least the US). On the smaller scale it's wise, e.g. now that I'm living with my 81 year old father, partly to help take care of him, that's an additional reason I take the vaccine.
Targeted herd immunity works even at low levels. (Ex: staff at nursing homes.) The benifit it simply exponential (Assuming the vaccine is not 100% effective but transmission chances are low.)
Cystic fibrosis patients are people who gradually die from antibiotic-resistant infections, something I no longer have. So I believe strongly that I am less of a health threat to others now than I was under conventional treatment of my condition.
I have a compromised immune system. So it seems to me that by your own logic, I am someone entitled to not vaccinate.
I have a compromised immune system. So it seems to me that by your own logic, I am someone entitled to not vaccinate.
Arguably you are the person that everyone else should be protecting with herd immunity. I'm surprised that you are ended up on the anti-vaccine side. I also have a (milder) set of incurable health problems that have led to hospitalizations and several surgeries. The anti-vaccine crowd drive me crazy because they literally lead to people like me and you ending up dead when preventable diseases get passed around.
You don't have a great feeling with the doctors because they don't have all the answers for you, and it took along time to diagnosis your condition. I also had to deal with that 'why is this happening to me?' moment, and the doctor just shrugged. They don't have all the answers. But for the things that we do have answers for, not using those answers is crazy.
You don't have a great feeling with the doctors because they don't have all the answers for you, and it took along time to diagnosis your condition. I also had to deal with that 'why is this happening to me?' moment, and the doctor just shrugged. They don't have all the answers. But for the things that we do have answers for, not using those answers is crazy.
I'm surprised that stating one is "moderately anti-vax" and has chosen to forego the flu vaccine for themselves turns into such a train wreck on a discussion forum that prides itself on being logical. You and others here are behaving in a strongly reactionary fashion to very tame statements.
The strong reaction is against anything that could spread the anti-vax idea. Because all it does is kill babies and people who can't get the vaccine, like you.
It might have gone better if you stated that, because you can't get the vaccine, you believe everyone else who is able to should, so that you also remain protected. That's a very valid argument.
It might have gone better if you stated that, because you can't get the vaccine, you believe everyone else who is able to should, so that you also remain protected. That's a very valid argument.
I don't have a position on what other people should or should not being doing in this regard. I have been too busy trying to not die to really be bothered to think too much about such things. And I am not thrilled with being told that this forum, where we are supposedly interested in engaging in serious intellectual discussion, is a place where I had damn well better tow the party line and not differentiate from it in the slightest or suffer the consequences. That is a policy of dictators, not scientists and intellectual elite.
I will continue to speak my mind as I see fit and accept the downvotes, if necessary, thank you.
I will continue to speak my mind as I see fit and accept the downvotes, if necessary, thank you.
Even on a mild discussion when you suggest sacrificing baby's people are going to react negatively.
And yes, herd immunity from the flue vaccine does protect baby's so it really is that simple.
PS: At best you can clam ignorance, but you really are suggesting direct harm to other people based on a gut feeling. And that's just not ok by most people.
And yes, herd immunity from the flue vaccine does protect baby's so it really is that simple.
PS: At best you can clam ignorance, but you really are suggesting direct harm to other people based on a gut feeling. And that's just not ok by most people.
I'd like think that under circumstances where vaccinations were detrimental to my health for specific genetic reasons, that never the less I would support vaccinations as principle, even if I could not partake. There is no morality or hypocrisy involved. You're not out to deceive anyone.
So, I understand your circumstance, I don't quite get people who oppose vaccinations ideologically.
So, I understand your circumstance, I don't quite get people who oppose vaccinations ideologically.
As I said: I am on the fence on the issue.
I am on the fence because doctors wrote me off for dead and had no goal at all of actually getting me well. They were content to watch me slowly die and blame my genetic disorder (in other words, conveniently wash their hands of all responsibility). The people who were actually helping me were extremely strongly anti-vax, and it wasn't an "ideology." They were actively involved in treating people with serious issues whom they believed had been harmed by vaccines (as just one of the underlying causes of the problems these people had). Some of them had impressive credentials, like PhDs. One was a former RN who had studied multiple alternative medicine modalities to keep her children alive, children who were anaphylactic to antibiotics. These were not "crazies" nor were they ideologues. They were people who were helping me save my life after doctors wrote me off for dead and found me annoying for not wanting to politely die so that they could feel like they knew everything.
These people who were so strongly anti-vax were people who earned my deepest respect. I never studied the issue and never came to a particular conclusion about vaccines generally. But these people who earned my respect and saved my life planted the seeds of doubt. Furthermore, the people who claim to have science on their side and claim that vaccines are absolutely proven beyond a shadow of a doubt are generally not behaving rationally nor respectfully when they drag my name through the mud for expressing doubt. They generally aren't behaving in a manner that earns my respect and paints them as truly logical and informed. They are the ones that come across to me as ideologues with closed minds, much more so than the intelligent, knowledgeable people who caused me to decide to skip my flu shot and see if that made any difference.
I am on the fence because doctors wrote me off for dead and had no goal at all of actually getting me well. They were content to watch me slowly die and blame my genetic disorder (in other words, conveniently wash their hands of all responsibility). The people who were actually helping me were extremely strongly anti-vax, and it wasn't an "ideology." They were actively involved in treating people with serious issues whom they believed had been harmed by vaccines (as just one of the underlying causes of the problems these people had). Some of them had impressive credentials, like PhDs. One was a former RN who had studied multiple alternative medicine modalities to keep her children alive, children who were anaphylactic to antibiotics. These were not "crazies" nor were they ideologues. They were people who were helping me save my life after doctors wrote me off for dead and found me annoying for not wanting to politely die so that they could feel like they knew everything.
These people who were so strongly anti-vax were people who earned my deepest respect. I never studied the issue and never came to a particular conclusion about vaccines generally. But these people who earned my respect and saved my life planted the seeds of doubt. Furthermore, the people who claim to have science on their side and claim that vaccines are absolutely proven beyond a shadow of a doubt are generally not behaving rationally nor respectfully when they drag my name through the mud for expressing doubt. They generally aren't behaving in a manner that earns my respect and paints them as truly logical and informed. They are the ones that come across to me as ideologues with closed minds, much more so than the intelligent, knowledgeable people who caused me to decide to skip my flu shot and see if that made any difference.
I also have a genetic issue that's incurable and left me vary sick last year. I currently feel fine. No lifestyle changes, no alternative medicine, just the ebb and flow of life.
Plenty of people wanted me to try 'alternative' medicine and if I had it would have seemed useful, but sometimes doing nothing works and 'alternative' medicine often gets creadit for a lot of situations when doing nothing would have worked just as well.
Plenty of people wanted me to try 'alternative' medicine and if I had it would have seemed useful, but sometimes doing nothing works and 'alternative' medicine often gets creadit for a lot of situations when doing nothing would have worked just as well.
You know, I have been doing this for 14 years. It gets extremely tiresome to be told that years and years of steady forward progress is absolutely not any evidence that I have any idea of what I am doing or what I am talking about and wilder coincidences have happened.
This is going to sound worse than I mean it. But, sample sizes of one are almost meaningless when it comes to health issues. The issue is there is way to many things going on at the same time.
Often alternative medicine suggests a diet change and that can be far more useful than you might think. Could be the new diet adds stuff your missing or you old diet included things that where bad for you. In the second case they could suggest you eat pizza and donuts which actually helps. Many things are stress related so a little hope and a better mindset can be extremely useful. Other times it's an environmental hazard that goes away because some plaint up river changed their process and stopped dumping XYZ.
The point of all that is clinical trials are necessary. But, at an individual level trying random crap can be useful.
Often alternative medicine suggests a diet change and that can be far more useful than you might think. Could be the new diet adds stuff your missing or you old diet included things that where bad for you. In the second case they could suggest you eat pizza and donuts which actually helps. Many things are stress related so a little hope and a better mindset can be extremely useful. Other times it's an environmental hazard that goes away because some plaint up river changed their process and stopped dumping XYZ.
The point of all that is clinical trials are necessary. But, at an individual level trying random crap can be useful.
On the other hand, in the past I've had a piece of medical advice by Mz to be quite helpful to me.
Sure, people often cite their irrefutable evidence that homeopathy helped them. It doesn't make crank ideas any less crank.
If you don't mind, please write to me (email in my profile) and let me know what it was we discussed. I have no memory of this and I relatively rarely hear back from people on HN where I have replied in public discussion about health things.
Thanks!
Thanks!
[deleted]
I would very much like to know what condition you have for which the treatment is regular, yearly flu shots.
That isn't "the treatment." It is just one component of standard care.
I have a form of cystic fibrosis.
I have a form of cystic fibrosis.
I find it odd that you're rejecting vaccines in general because one of the things doctors suggested you get is the regular flu vaccine - which everyone else (in the United States, at least) is recommended.
Did they recommend it to decrease your chances of getting the flu? If you have a medical condition, I would imagine that preventing other infections is kind of a no-brainer as the literally most basic step towards care.
I don't want to make it sound like I'm jumping down your throat; I have no idea what your circumstances are, although I'm sure they're worse than mine.
Did they recommend it to decrease your chances of getting the flu? If you have a medical condition, I would imagine that preventing other infections is kind of a no-brainer as the literally most basic step towards care.
I don't want to make it sound like I'm jumping down your throat; I have no idea what your circumstances are, although I'm sure they're worse than mine.
I find it odd that so many people here are painting me with such a broad brush and refusing to hear that I am not rejecting vaccines in general.
Very sad, and yet, sadder still is that we don't see ourselves for the locusts we've come to be.
So, have you got a solution?
I don't, really; the obvious one of using unregulated power, bring in far too much chaos, and hence useless.
I'm actually surprised that this view is so unpopular here...
I'm actually surprised that this view is so unpopular here...
I dunno, your statement is kind of anti-growth. Calling humans locusts, at least to me, brings the image of some greeny who would advocate genocide for the sake of the planet.
Sorry, I guess I should fully weigh the connotations of the words I use.
I certainly am not Anti-Growth; but I do believe that per-capita Growth can be accomodated with a decrease in the nominal economy. I think, as yet, the only known, surefire way of doing this is by improving education (esp. that of Women) and the economy.
I certainly am not Anti-Growth; but I do believe that per-capita Growth can be accomodated with a decrease in the nominal economy. I think, as yet, the only known, surefire way of doing this is by improving education (esp. that of Women) and the economy.
Almost every extinction I've read about was caused at the end by an infection of some kind (fungus, parasite, virus, etc). Sure there might have been other factors that weakened the animal or plant, but the nail in the coffin seemed to always be an infection.
Hunting and other animal predators can massively reduce the numbers, but extinct to zero almost always seemed to me to be an infection at end. Without that they seem to hold on at low numbers, but not gone.