$1.6B in funding and $7B in exits: Chicago tech just had its best year ever(builtinchicago.org)
builtinchicago.org
$1.6B in funding and $7B in exits: Chicago tech just had its best year ever
http://www.builtinchicago.org/2015/01/22/16b-funding-and-7b-exits-chicago-tech-just-had-its-best-year-ever
85 comments
Point 1 is true here, and out west too. I think MBA's are just better at raising money. Also, entrepreneurship is now getting built into every MBA program out there, so get ready for more of that.
The equity thing needs to be addressed badly, my theory is that it's the result of our manufacturing past. We still have those manager/worker cultural remnants. I talked to one woman who said she "couldn't wait to turn 30 so people would take her seriously." We probably have some of the best engineers in the world here, but most of them aren't in startups, they're building corporate IT or middleware. You're not seeing a ton of new spinoffs from Groupon because the equity was so concentrated pre-ipo. Until we get a virtuous feedback loop of young guns spinning out of companies WITH some cash, it's probably not going to change. The VC community here is risk averse and typically only buys revenue.
I disagree with point #3. Rails, Django, 8th light, Groupon, etc... have done more for craftsman culture than anywhere else I can think of. The midwest work ethic and quality standards have a lot to do with that.
The equity thing needs to be addressed badly, my theory is that it's the result of our manufacturing past. We still have those manager/worker cultural remnants. I talked to one woman who said she "couldn't wait to turn 30 so people would take her seriously." We probably have some of the best engineers in the world here, but most of them aren't in startups, they're building corporate IT or middleware. You're not seeing a ton of new spinoffs from Groupon because the equity was so concentrated pre-ipo. Until we get a virtuous feedback loop of young guns spinning out of companies WITH some cash, it's probably not going to change. The VC community here is risk averse and typically only buys revenue.
I disagree with point #3. Rails, Django, 8th light, Groupon, etc... have done more for craftsman culture than anywhere else I can think of. The midwest work ethic and quality standards have a lot to do with that.
Must be something in the water?
It's a flood of NWU/Kellogg and UC/Booth MBA grads that continually stream into the market and slosh around the consulting firms before filling up the lobby at 1871 trying to catch the eye of a Pritzker.
I left a Chicago-area startup that ticked off about 90% of your boxes above. It was a nightmare. The company is still going and the CEO is still busy running around talking about being a startup CEO instead of shipping the damned product.
It's a flood of NWU/Kellogg and UC/Booth MBA grads that continually stream into the market and slosh around the consulting firms before filling up the lobby at 1871 trying to catch the eye of a Pritzker.
I left a Chicago-area startup that ticked off about 90% of your boxes above. It was a nightmare. The company is still going and the CEO is still busy running around talking about being a startup CEO instead of shipping the damned product.
> I know these people exist everywhere today but there's an unusually large number concentrated in Chicago. Must be something in the water?
Finance is also an extremely tempting lure. The pay is quite good (e.g., significantly better than Google), the hours are better, and the firms are generally supportive of external work. Many of the finance firms my friends work at (I've lived in the Chicago area most of my life) allow/encourage/hire people to serve on the C++ standardization committee, were co-founders of major open source projects such as R, etc.
It's hard to lure people away from jobs like that where you're paid a lot and have a ton of freedom for a potential exit that's smaller than what you currently make, unless your startup becomes Google.
Finance is also an extremely tempting lure. The pay is quite good (e.g., significantly better than Google), the hours are better, and the firms are generally supportive of external work. Many of the finance firms my friends work at (I've lived in the Chicago area most of my life) allow/encourage/hire people to serve on the C++ standardization committee, were co-founders of major open source projects such as R, etc.
It's hard to lure people away from jobs like that where you're paid a lot and have a ton of freedom for a potential exit that's smaller than what you currently make, unless your startup becomes Google.
To add to that, finance in Chicago is very different than finance at big banks. Many of the big players are tech companies first and foremost. Engineers are often on the "money side" of the business and respected/rewarded as such.
Anyone trying to attract talented STEM employees in Chicago should read these to see what they're up against:
http://www.nancyhua.com/2012/12/11/the-and-my-future/
http://qr.ae/3MPL1
Anyone trying to attract talented STEM employees in Chicago should read these to see what they're up against:
http://www.nancyhua.com/2012/12/11/the-and-my-future/
http://qr.ae/3MPL1
I'll offer a hypothesis to explain #1:
It's because Chicago's culture is excessively risk averse. There seems to be a tendency to seek permission or acceptance from peers and others before taking a risk (either in business, fashion, life, whatever).
This is actually great for bootstrapping, because it keeps you in touch with the real world and immediate customer demand.
But it leads to fewer qualified, technical people there with no history of 'business' thinking that striking off on their own and starting a company is a good idea.
The people who do start companies there are often the ones who have gone through some kind of training program (MBA, work experience, etc.) that in their minds has qualified them to start a company.
So I propose that it's not that the MBA types are overrepresented, it's that technical folks and others are underrepresented, because they're tending to not start companies.
Disclaimer: totally conjecture, based on living in Chicago for eight years, but being from California and now living in NYC. In moving from Chicago to NYC the most striking difference (for me), other than the diversity, was the spirit that no one cares about you or what you do, so you might as well do whatever you want or think you can. For some that means starting companies.
It's because Chicago's culture is excessively risk averse. There seems to be a tendency to seek permission or acceptance from peers and others before taking a risk (either in business, fashion, life, whatever).
This is actually great for bootstrapping, because it keeps you in touch with the real world and immediate customer demand.
But it leads to fewer qualified, technical people there with no history of 'business' thinking that striking off on their own and starting a company is a good idea.
The people who do start companies there are often the ones who have gone through some kind of training program (MBA, work experience, etc.) that in their minds has qualified them to start a company.
So I propose that it's not that the MBA types are overrepresented, it's that technical folks and others are underrepresented, because they're tending to not start companies.
Disclaimer: totally conjecture, based on living in Chicago for eight years, but being from California and now living in NYC. In moving from Chicago to NYC the most striking difference (for me), other than the diversity, was the spirit that no one cares about you or what you do, so you might as well do whatever you want or think you can. For some that means starting companies.
>It's because Chicago's culture is excessively risk averse. There seems to be a tendency to seek permission or acceptance from peers and others before taking a risk (either in business, fashion, life, whatever).
Absolutely. Many of the early startups were based on needs that could serve people and corporate partners. We don't have a lot of app based businesses.
Absolutely. Many of the early startups were based on needs that could serve people and corporate partners. We don't have a lot of app based businesses.
Are you implying that's a bad thing? Maybe if you want to go public with some insane P/E ratio selling the dream, but B2B tech businesses serve the economy, provide useful jobs, and have staying power.
I'm suggesting thats a great thing. Trying to startup a business with extremely small margins and for all of the public is an effort based on madness.
>It's because Chicago's culture is excessively risk averse.
Again this seems like selection bias at play. Chicago's history is actually built on the back of excessive risk taking, not risk aversion. Its a cultural touchstone that is built into the cities image.
And if you look at areas outside of the web, there have been huge payouts for risk taking very recently (trading is the most obvious one).
I suspect that what people are saying is "Chicago doesn't do as good a job of building SV style startups as SV. The kind that is based on a constant flood of inexperienced dev talent, high turn over, and equity based compensation. Due to this there are very few blockbuster technology firms and relatively fewer people with that kind of experience to lean on when trying to emulate the SV model."
I think that is probably a fair assessment, but I also think that it is generally a bad idea to try to emulate the SV model, when for the price of a cross country voyage, you could be in SV.
SV has similar problems in the reverse direction. Talk to bootstrapped founders there some time. They walk around feeling like they have 3 heads. And don't get me started about the misconceptions of the way capital markets work. Having been pitched a couple of SV startups that were going to disrupt commodities trading, I can assure you misconceptions about how "business" works go both ways.
Again this seems like selection bias at play. Chicago's history is actually built on the back of excessive risk taking, not risk aversion. Its a cultural touchstone that is built into the cities image.
And if you look at areas outside of the web, there have been huge payouts for risk taking very recently (trading is the most obvious one).
I suspect that what people are saying is "Chicago doesn't do as good a job of building SV style startups as SV. The kind that is based on a constant flood of inexperienced dev talent, high turn over, and equity based compensation. Due to this there are very few blockbuster technology firms and relatively fewer people with that kind of experience to lean on when trying to emulate the SV model."
I think that is probably a fair assessment, but I also think that it is generally a bad idea to try to emulate the SV model, when for the price of a cross country voyage, you could be in SV.
SV has similar problems in the reverse direction. Talk to bootstrapped founders there some time. They walk around feeling like they have 3 heads. And don't get me started about the misconceptions of the way capital markets work. Having been pitched a couple of SV startups that were going to disrupt commodities trading, I can assure you misconceptions about how "business" works go both ways.
> It's because Chicago's culture is excessively risk averse
I don't know if the culture is that much more risk averse than SF, but rather that the risk calculation is different. There's such a big tech ecosystem out in SF that "failure" as an entrepreneur might mean raising more money for the next project, or failing that BigCos fighting to hire you. Without the same depth of tech infrastructure, the downside risk is much higher in Chicago (or really, anywhere that's not SF).
I don't know if the culture is that much more risk averse than SF, but rather that the risk calculation is different. There's such a big tech ecosystem out in SF that "failure" as an entrepreneur might mean raising more money for the next project, or failing that BigCos fighting to hire you. Without the same depth of tech infrastructure, the downside risk is much higher in Chicago (or really, anywhere that's not SF).
I would say that the SF failure-is-good culture has good and bad influences from the VCs. They don't care that you failed. They care why you failed. If their evaluation is that you failed in good faith, you get to call it a learning experience and you get an executive position at Google (preferably something with the authority to buy companies, so you can pay them back) or more funding for your next venture. If they judge you to have failed in bad faith, then you're black-balled. So it cuts both ways. It's nice that they'll go to bat for someone they judge to have failed in good faith; it's bad when someone gets blacklisted as having failed in bad faith (or has his successful business taken from him) because he pissed someone off.
Any time you replace objective evaluation of people with subjective holistic evaluations, you get a system that seems more humane and less sharp-cornered, but you also get corruption. It's the question of which is better: sheer cold fairness or sticky warm humanness that can devolve into corruption or even a reputation economy (meaning, "extortion system") if the powerful abuse their roles in the judgment of others.
You can look at it charitably and say that the VCs are doing good by caring more about the reason for failure than the fact of it. Or you can look at it negatively and say that it creates a culture where (a) slimy operators good at creating impressions can play politics and let their companies rot, knowing that their backers will see their failures as "good faith" regardless of the facts, and (b) those with power over the "holistic" element of evaluation evolve into reputation-making and -breaking extortionists. The "right answer" is somewhere between the two.
With Chicago, I think the problem isn't that there's a lack of good jobs for technical people, but that the job-hopper stigma is still very strong in finance (and that's true everywhere; it's not geographical, and the attitude is similar in SF finance). So it's hard for a trader to bounce back if the startup doesn't work.
If hedge funds were willing to hire people with typical startup/tech CVs-- those tend to show the brutally honest behavior of job-hopping (even at 2 years, or 6 months) if one's career is stagnating, rather than sticking around for 5-6 playing the system or slacking like white-collar people are "supposed" to do when passed over, because it's somehow more disloyal to leave than to slack for years-- then people would less afraid to do startups. The fault isn't with Chicago per se. It's with finance and the F500 world and their anachronistic hatred of the "job hopper".
There's a lot that I don't like about California startup culture but I think job hopping is a good thing. If you're ambitious and it's clear that you've been passed over for advancement, it's better for everyone to move on than to stick around and suck out a salary and play against the system for 5+ years because the white-collar world thinks you're "supposed" to show "staying power" or "loyalty".
At any rate, I think you're completely right. I don't think that California is more or less risk averse than the rest of the country, nor do I necessarily think that risk seeking is even a virtue. California entrepreneurs get to look more risk-friendly just because there's such a high frequency managed outcomes (acqui-hires and executive positions made available if the VCs judge you to have failed in good faith) that VC-funded entrepreneurs can count on one. Where it's pernicious is when these founders justify massive equity disparities (compared to the 0.5% that the first engineer gets) because they "took all the risk" when, in fact, most of these VC-funded founders don't take any more risk than any other corporate employee.
Any time you replace objective evaluation of people with subjective holistic evaluations, you get a system that seems more humane and less sharp-cornered, but you also get corruption. It's the question of which is better: sheer cold fairness or sticky warm humanness that can devolve into corruption or even a reputation economy (meaning, "extortion system") if the powerful abuse their roles in the judgment of others.
You can look at it charitably and say that the VCs are doing good by caring more about the reason for failure than the fact of it. Or you can look at it negatively and say that it creates a culture where (a) slimy operators good at creating impressions can play politics and let their companies rot, knowing that their backers will see their failures as "good faith" regardless of the facts, and (b) those with power over the "holistic" element of evaluation evolve into reputation-making and -breaking extortionists. The "right answer" is somewhere between the two.
With Chicago, I think the problem isn't that there's a lack of good jobs for technical people, but that the job-hopper stigma is still very strong in finance (and that's true everywhere; it's not geographical, and the attitude is similar in SF finance). So it's hard for a trader to bounce back if the startup doesn't work.
If hedge funds were willing to hire people with typical startup/tech CVs-- those tend to show the brutally honest behavior of job-hopping (even at 2 years, or 6 months) if one's career is stagnating, rather than sticking around for 5-6 playing the system or slacking like white-collar people are "supposed" to do when passed over, because it's somehow more disloyal to leave than to slack for years-- then people would less afraid to do startups. The fault isn't with Chicago per se. It's with finance and the F500 world and their anachronistic hatred of the "job hopper".
There's a lot that I don't like about California startup culture but I think job hopping is a good thing. If you're ambitious and it's clear that you've been passed over for advancement, it's better for everyone to move on than to stick around and suck out a salary and play against the system for 5+ years because the white-collar world thinks you're "supposed" to show "staying power" or "loyalty".
At any rate, I think you're completely right. I don't think that California is more or less risk averse than the rest of the country, nor do I necessarily think that risk seeking is even a virtue. California entrepreneurs get to look more risk-friendly just because there's such a high frequency managed outcomes (acqui-hires and executive positions made available if the VCs judge you to have failed in good faith) that VC-funded entrepreneurs can count on one. Where it's pernicious is when these founders justify massive equity disparities (compared to the 0.5% that the first engineer gets) because they "took all the risk" when, in fact, most of these VC-funded founders don't take any more risk than any other corporate employee.
Traders don't want to hire job hoppers because it's a negative signal about their abilities and ethics. First, if this guy is really so great, why has he flamed out of 3 firms in 5 years? Either he's lying or has some serious personality defect. Second, do I really want a guy who's bounced from firm-to-firm glomming up ideas and IP? Won't he do the same thing to me?
Going away to do a startup doesn't send the same signal. I'd gladly hire someone who did that.
Going away to do a startup doesn't send the same signal. I'd gladly hire someone who did that.
Traders don't want to hire job hoppers because it's a negative signal about their abilities and ethics.
You're wrong. I can make the same argument against people with long tenures. Some people, when they realize that they've been passed over for a promotion or that they're not being groomed for the role they want in the future, bounce (external promotion). That's the honest thing to do. Others stick around, play politics, work the system, slack, and wait for others to fail so they can capitalize on the chaos and move up the ranks. In other words, one could make the argument that the able, confident, ethical, honest people job hop and the political actors stick around and climb the ladder.
I don't actually believe that most people with long tenures are unethical. I'd put the correlation right around zero, to be honest about the whole thing. I think that there are patterns that cause good people to have long tenures and bad people to have short ones, and also patterns that cause good people to have short tenures and bad people to have long ones.
First, if this guy is really so great, why has he flamed out of 3 firms in 5 years?
Maybe he's technically excellent but bad at playing the politics. Perhaps he's an overperformer, like McNulty on The Wire. Maybe he's just unlucky. Maybe he didn't flame out, but each move was a major promotion that he wouldn't have been able to get internally.
Second, do I really want a guy who's bounced from firm-to-firm glomming up ideas and IP? Won't he do the same thing to me?
The problem isn't "job hoppers". It's attrition. When people leave, it's disruptive (and the internal disruption to your own processes is so much more of a threat than IP leakage, unless someone's actually stealing code and then it goes to the courts, that the latter is a rounding error). You can control attrition by treating people well and making sure that ambitious people have appropriate opportunities get promoted on time. It has little to do with the people you hire, and much more to do with how you manage them.
The anti-"job hopper" sentiment isn't really about IP. It's about being mean-spirited, and the IP justification is just made to back-fill an already-formed prejudice.
You're wrong. I can make the same argument against people with long tenures. Some people, when they realize that they've been passed over for a promotion or that they're not being groomed for the role they want in the future, bounce (external promotion). That's the honest thing to do. Others stick around, play politics, work the system, slack, and wait for others to fail so they can capitalize on the chaos and move up the ranks. In other words, one could make the argument that the able, confident, ethical, honest people job hop and the political actors stick around and climb the ladder.
I don't actually believe that most people with long tenures are unethical. I'd put the correlation right around zero, to be honest about the whole thing. I think that there are patterns that cause good people to have long tenures and bad people to have short ones, and also patterns that cause good people to have short tenures and bad people to have long ones.
First, if this guy is really so great, why has he flamed out of 3 firms in 5 years?
Maybe he's technically excellent but bad at playing the politics. Perhaps he's an overperformer, like McNulty on The Wire. Maybe he's just unlucky. Maybe he didn't flame out, but each move was a major promotion that he wouldn't have been able to get internally.
Second, do I really want a guy who's bounced from firm-to-firm glomming up ideas and IP? Won't he do the same thing to me?
The problem isn't "job hoppers". It's attrition. When people leave, it's disruptive (and the internal disruption to your own processes is so much more of a threat than IP leakage, unless someone's actually stealing code and then it goes to the courts, that the latter is a rounding error). You can control attrition by treating people well and making sure that ambitious people have appropriate opportunities get promoted on time. It has little to do with the people you hire, and much more to do with how you manage them.
The anti-"job hopper" sentiment isn't really about IP. It's about being mean-spirited, and the IP justification is just made to back-fill an already-formed prejudice.
are your comments always grayed ?
Ever since I exposed Spiegel for what is probably a self-serving PR move exploiting the Sony hack, I've had at least 4 stalker down voters. It's obvious because they tend to hit at the same time.
Have a link to the article which contains your comments about that? I'd like to read them.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8764572
Not everyone who downvoted that (admittedly, not well-expressed, insofar as some thought I was accusing Spiegel of causing the Sony hack rather than simply benefitting from it) comment was a Speigeloid. The Spiegeloids are the ones who have been repeatedly downvoting random comments of mine just because I wrote them. (Or, an alternative explanation would be that the Hacker News community has suddenly become much meaner... but I doubt that.) In other words, stalker-downvoting (seeking out someone's comments and, without reading them, downvoting them).
I have no idea when it comes to their personal identities, but I know that I have at least 4 stalker-downvoters. They could be sock puppets of one person. For all I know, it could be Spiegel himself (but I doubt that).
Not everyone who downvoted that (admittedly, not well-expressed, insofar as some thought I was accusing Spiegel of causing the Sony hack rather than simply benefitting from it) comment was a Speigeloid. The Spiegeloids are the ones who have been repeatedly downvoting random comments of mine just because I wrote them. (Or, an alternative explanation would be that the Hacker News community has suddenly become much meaner... but I doubt that.) In other words, stalker-downvoting (seeking out someone's comments and, without reading them, downvoting them).
I have no idea when it comes to their personal identities, but I know that I have at least 4 stalker-downvoters. They could be sock puppets of one person. For all I know, it could be Spiegel himself (but I doubt that).
I think this will change as prop trading firms wane & consolidate.
They attract the top STEM talent in Chicago and can pay them extremely well through profit sharing. There are a lot of engineers and "Xs who program" (where X ~= trader/researcher) taking home high-six and low-seven figure bonuses at the best groups. The people are usually very entrepreneurial and the firms have a "tech culture" where good code isn't a cost center. Why would guys getting market base, upside that pays yearly or quarterly, and autonomy trade that for $90k and a lottery ticket to build some glad-hander's dream?
Markets are slow and competition is fierce, so I think you will see a lot guys from these Getco-ish firms leaving because the opportunity just isn't there anymore or the firm culture has changed. Most of these people keep a low profile and have cash socked away. Some will end up bootstrapping their own businesses here in Chicago, building them in the image of the firms where they cut their teeth: nimble, revenue-focused, scientific, and sharing success with employees.
They attract the top STEM talent in Chicago and can pay them extremely well through profit sharing. There are a lot of engineers and "Xs who program" (where X ~= trader/researcher) taking home high-six and low-seven figure bonuses at the best groups. The people are usually very entrepreneurial and the firms have a "tech culture" where good code isn't a cost center. Why would guys getting market base, upside that pays yearly or quarterly, and autonomy trade that for $90k and a lottery ticket to build some glad-hander's dream?
Markets are slow and competition is fierce, so I think you will see a lot guys from these Getco-ish firms leaving because the opportunity just isn't there anymore or the firm culture has changed. Most of these people keep a low profile and have cash socked away. Some will end up bootstrapping their own businesses here in Chicago, building them in the image of the firms where they cut their teeth: nimble, revenue-focused, scientific, and sharing success with employees.
Hah. I worked for that startup before I moved to Chicago. I suspect that doing SV style startups is something that is hard to do outside of SV and as it gets "taught" in B-schools around the world more and more people will try to emulate it poorly.
Maybe I run in the wrong circles, but developer compensation is actually slightly elevated due to the trading houses. This is cyclic to some degree but when trading houses are flush they tend to be able to just come over the top of other businesses (and they have a culture of doing so). I think that also depresses the value of "equity" compensation. Lots and lots of developers in Chicago actually know how options work (how to price them etc) and are weaned on a diet of cash bonuses. It makes equity packages unattractive to that class of developer. Maybe that has a trickle down effect that causes equity to not be a major compensation component?
Maybe I run in the wrong circles, but developer compensation is actually slightly elevated due to the trading houses. This is cyclic to some degree but when trading houses are flush they tend to be able to just come over the top of other businesses (and they have a culture of doing so). I think that also depresses the value of "equity" compensation. Lots and lots of developers in Chicago actually know how options work (how to price them etc) and are weaned on a diet of cash bonuses. It makes equity packages unattractive to that class of developer. Maybe that has a trickle down effect that causes equity to not be a major compensation component?
[deleted]
I used to recite a similar list when someone would ask why I left. It's actually eerie how similar they are.
[deleted]
+1 on everything what you just said. Totally true.
Excellent points. Its why I joined a SF startup remotely instead of working for a local Chicago startup.
It's interesting what would be 80s/90s person assumption?
"1.6B in funding! Oh boy, robots, life extension, hover cars!"
"Err, no. But you will be targeted with ads about food delivery and HR services much more precisely!"
"1.6B in funding! Oh boy, robots, life extension, hover cars!"
"Err, no. But you will be targeted with ads about food delivery and HR services much more precisely!"
Remember, you're talking about the 90s which had as a flagship startup a company that sold pet food. Broadcast.com alone was purchased for $5.9B (eq. to $8B of today's money), and all they did was stream video over the Internet.
All Youtube does is stream video over the internet. Your argument isn't that convincing.
Yes, and Youtube isn't making hover cars nor extending life. Are you sure you read the context of my reply?
Sadly, most of the startups are finance/marketing/hr-focused. I haven't seen many other large startups outside that. Ones that come to mind are TempoDB, BellyCard, ShipBob, Raise, ParkWhiz, and SpotHero.
My impression is that in Chicago -- and really everywhere outside the SF BA and NYC -- has much weaker comp for engineers.
It makes sense, really. By far the majority of SE jobs in these places are in IT departments writing line of business software. These are Java and .Net shops usually and anecdotally it seems they pay from $60-90k.
The companies where engineers are profit centers -- web startups and software companies, etc -- are desirable and attractive. Importantly, these are usually high margin businesses. In competitive markets, these companies meet engineer scarcity with attractive pay and equity packages. In places like Chicago, for every opening at 37 Signals you have 5 applicants from places like Crate & Barrel.
This is unfortunate especially because even here in SF I think engineers are not yet paid what they are worth. I reach this conclusion by looking at the margins of software companies and profitable internet companies. You can clearly see the value software engineers are creating.
To be clear, I'm sure there are thousands of highly paid software engineers in the greater Chicago area. it's a very big city and there is a lot of money there. Hell there may be thousands of highly paid engineers in finance alone. Chicago is certainly the heart of trading in this country. I'm generalizing.
It makes sense, really. By far the majority of SE jobs in these places are in IT departments writing line of business software. These are Java and .Net shops usually and anecdotally it seems they pay from $60-90k.
The companies where engineers are profit centers -- web startups and software companies, etc -- are desirable and attractive. Importantly, these are usually high margin businesses. In competitive markets, these companies meet engineer scarcity with attractive pay and equity packages. In places like Chicago, for every opening at 37 Signals you have 5 applicants from places like Crate & Barrel.
This is unfortunate especially because even here in SF I think engineers are not yet paid what they are worth. I reach this conclusion by looking at the margins of software companies and profitable internet companies. You can clearly see the value software engineers are creating.
To be clear, I'm sure there are thousands of highly paid software engineers in the greater Chicago area. it's a very big city and there is a lot of money there. Hell there may be thousands of highly paid engineers in finance alone. Chicago is certainly the heart of trading in this country. I'm generalizing.
My standard of living in Chicago was much higher than in the sfbay, despite the salary being much lower. The cost of living in the Bay is outpacing salary packages for engineers, it's nutty.
Nearly every major study I've seen going back decades has Chicago having lower comp numbers for tech than SV. But usually its on the order of 3-10%. How that compares in cost of living adjusted terms I don't know.
The 60-90k number sounds absurd to me. Having worked in Chicago for quite some time, 60k is what a new graduate could have earned 10 or 12 years ago in the middle of the last bubble burst. 90k seems like a plausible starting point now for an entry level Java developer.
The last time I worked in a .NET shop, we would not have been able to hire any of our targeted developers for anywhere near those numbers and that was 5 or so years ago.
The 60-90k number sounds absurd to me. Having worked in Chicago for quite some time, 60k is what a new graduate could have earned 10 or 12 years ago in the middle of the last bubble burst. 90k seems like a plausible starting point now for an entry level Java developer.
The last time I worked in a .NET shop, we would not have been able to hire any of our targeted developers for anywhere near those numbers and that was 5 or so years ago.
On the southside I was offered $40k for custom Magento development (php) after a "trial period"... they said $50k was impossible for the next couple years even if I did great. That offer was the worst I've ever heard.
Now I make the average salary of a web developer in Chicago according to glassdoor. I have 5 years experience as a dev, with a ton of holes in my resume (because my heart is in doing my own startups). Just thought add that anecdote.
Now I make the average salary of a web developer in Chicago according to glassdoor. I have 5 years experience as a dev, with a ton of holes in my resume (because my heart is in doing my own startups). Just thought add that anecdote.
I'm getting $75k as a Python engineer with 5 years experience. Am I absurdly underpaid?
My job feels easy, I have flexible hours, little oversight, independence to build cool things, good benefits, and I feel very lucky that anyone would pay me so much money to sit in a climate controlled office playing with a computer.
My job feels easy, I have flexible hours, little oversight, independence to build cool things, good benefits, and I feel very lucky that anyone would pay me so much money to sit in a climate controlled office playing with a computer.
I wouldn't presume to say whether you are underpaid or overpaid. But I will tell you this. I started at Google in the a little after the middle of the last decade, with no experience, just a bachelor's degree, not knowing my ass from my elbow. I started at $90k, not including $50-100k of stock and bonus, and was making nearly double that within a couple of years (certainly before five had passed). The fresh grad new hires today make a lot more than I did.
My understanding is that most of the big and medium names in the Bay are offering at least what I started out for people with no experience.
That said, my house cost almost $2M, and it is not a terribly nice house by the standards of anywhere but here. So . . . do with that what you will.
My understanding is that most of the big and medium names in the Bay are offering at least what I started out for people with no experience.
That said, my house cost almost $2M, and it is not a terribly nice house by the standards of anywhere but here. So . . . do with that what you will.
As with any market based pricing its hard to say whether the price is right or wrong. Because the real price is what the market will bear.
I will say, for the broad outlines that you've given that is a low compensation figure. And projecting a bit, I can probably figure out why. First you said yourself, that you don't value yourself much more highly than you are currently getting paid. Why should anyone else?
Secondly, the way you present your product (Python engineer) lowers the prestige/premium it should cost. First, but least importantly, because Python, in general, pays slightly less than other technologies. Second, and much more importantly, being a programming cog to be placed into a programming assembly line is much less valuable than being a business problem solver that uses and builds technology.
I'd recommend going over to patio11's blog and reading:
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro...
I will say, for the broad outlines that you've given that is a low compensation figure. And projecting a bit, I can probably figure out why. First you said yourself, that you don't value yourself much more highly than you are currently getting paid. Why should anyone else?
Secondly, the way you present your product (Python engineer) lowers the prestige/premium it should cost. First, but least importantly, because Python, in general, pays slightly less than other technologies. Second, and much more importantly, being a programming cog to be placed into a programming assembly line is much less valuable than being a business problem solver that uses and builds technology.
I'd recommend going over to patio11's blog and reading:
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro...
Why do you have this impression?
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but curious where this idea came from.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but curious where this idea came from.
If I weren't a risk averse, cowardly lawyer and was planning on starting my own business, I'd go to Chicago.
It's a world class city with tons of programmers and engineer. But it's also much cheaper to live in.
It's a world class city with tons of programmers and engineer. But it's also much cheaper to live in.
Heh, just don't come here looking to start a law practice. Three major law schools plus a couple less-major ones, every one of them churning out way more JDs than the local job market can soak up. I'm pretty sure the acronym now stands for Java Dispenser.
I went to Northwester but fled to DC for a job. I'm all too aware unfortunately.
Chicago has a significant advantage: it's more "normal" in that it's more representative of the United States, than the Bay Area. This provides a fertile ground for new companies to emerge:
[1] Saw this in Business Insider a while ago [2] "Coming Apart" by Charles Murray
- Childcare / anything to do with children (e.g. Sittercity)
- Things for people without college degrees -- SF has 48% [1] degreed workforce vs. 28% [2] nationally.
- People in Chicago/the rest of the US have houses; over 80% of SF's population lives in apartments. There's tons of businesses involving housing including lawn care, general home improvement, construction, contracting, etc.
- People in Chicago have cars; many people in SF don't drive (surprised Uber came from here? I'm not)
- Anything involving small business
- Also, world-class financial center
[1] Saw this in Business Insider a while ago [2] "Coming Apart" by Charles Murray
Silicon Valley is somewhat of an aberration at this point. There's an S-curve to concentration (whether in talent, resources, or attention) and while the bulk of American cities are hurting due to a lack of software talent, Silicon Valley is hurting in its own way. It has a lot of engineering talent but a collective lack of political talent (which is what prevents engineers from organizing and getting real equity instead of fucking 1% for the first engineer) and such abysmal HR/management that an exclusionary macho brogrammer culture (that wouldn't fly outside of VC-funded startups) has been allowed to emerge.
So, trying to replicate Silicon Valley isn't a good strategy. It's not very desirable. It's also not possible. Not for New York, not for Chicago, not for Seattle, not for Austin. Should these cities be grabbing a greater share of the new-technology action? Yeah, absolutely. But trying to replicate the culture of a sexist, racist suburban shithole whose high priests think it's OK to block off public beach access (cf. Vinod Khosla) is undesirable. It's happening slowly, but that shit is dying (although it will take two to four decades). Why does the contemporary Valley put such a high premium on pedigree? Because when a society goes into decline, nostalgia dominates. When the Valley was coming up, it didn't matter if you went to Stanford or UC-Irvine or a community college in Nebraska, so long as you were smart and could code. In its decline phase, you see the Stanford Welfare of Clinkle and Snapchat getting funded.
Talent has a natural desire to concentrate, and that might limit us to ~10 strong tech cities in the US, but Silicon Valley has blown past that natural inclination toward concentration. It's deep into the "congested" territory.
What makes Silicon Valley is that it's a condensation point for passive capital. Passive capitalists (teachers' pension funds that invest in VC firms) want returns, and don't seem to strongly care about where or how the capital is deployed. The priesthood that is trusted (in error) to do so are VCs who mostly live in California, and who almost never fund companies more than 30 miles from where they live, so the job and wealth creation is limited to a small geographic area (in which it's almost impossible for an engineer, if he's starting now or recently, to make wealth due to astronomical real estate costs) far away from where the passive capitalists live. Now, if the passive capitalists had a vote, they probably wouldn't want all of their money being directed at a small geographical area where most of them could never afford to live. All being equal-- and by "all", I mostly mean "return on investment"-- Nebraska police officers would rather their pensions be invested in Nebraska businesses and create jobs there... rather than have that money be funneled off to California. Of course, they'd be completely happy to have their money invested in California if that would bring better returns... but VC has been a low-performing asset class for a decade-- the VCs focus on their own careers rather than building great companies or generating returns on the portfolio-- so the passive capitalists are arguably getting screwed. If concentrating the passive capital in Silicon Valley was generating decent returns, then there'd be no reasonable argue against it, but it's not.
This is a long-form way of saying that I agree with you. Replicating Silicon Valley is a backward-looking strategy that won't work in Chicago or New York. These cities, instead, should focus on their own assets. I think Chicago (or Seattle, or Boulder, or for a longer shot, Minneapolis) is a contender for being a different kind of technical leader in, say, 2030... because Chicago has an unusual advantage of a perceived playing-from-behind while actually not being that far behind; that's fairly antithetical to the Valley's Dunning-Kruger smug cloud... but it won't look like the existing Valley. It'll be something different.
So, trying to replicate Silicon Valley isn't a good strategy. It's not very desirable. It's also not possible. Not for New York, not for Chicago, not for Seattle, not for Austin. Should these cities be grabbing a greater share of the new-technology action? Yeah, absolutely. But trying to replicate the culture of a sexist, racist suburban shithole whose high priests think it's OK to block off public beach access (cf. Vinod Khosla) is undesirable. It's happening slowly, but that shit is dying (although it will take two to four decades). Why does the contemporary Valley put such a high premium on pedigree? Because when a society goes into decline, nostalgia dominates. When the Valley was coming up, it didn't matter if you went to Stanford or UC-Irvine or a community college in Nebraska, so long as you were smart and could code. In its decline phase, you see the Stanford Welfare of Clinkle and Snapchat getting funded.
Talent has a natural desire to concentrate, and that might limit us to ~10 strong tech cities in the US, but Silicon Valley has blown past that natural inclination toward concentration. It's deep into the "congested" territory.
What makes Silicon Valley is that it's a condensation point for passive capital. Passive capitalists (teachers' pension funds that invest in VC firms) want returns, and don't seem to strongly care about where or how the capital is deployed. The priesthood that is trusted (in error) to do so are VCs who mostly live in California, and who almost never fund companies more than 30 miles from where they live, so the job and wealth creation is limited to a small geographic area (in which it's almost impossible for an engineer, if he's starting now or recently, to make wealth due to astronomical real estate costs) far away from where the passive capitalists live. Now, if the passive capitalists had a vote, they probably wouldn't want all of their money being directed at a small geographical area where most of them could never afford to live. All being equal-- and by "all", I mostly mean "return on investment"-- Nebraska police officers would rather their pensions be invested in Nebraska businesses and create jobs there... rather than have that money be funneled off to California. Of course, they'd be completely happy to have their money invested in California if that would bring better returns... but VC has been a low-performing asset class for a decade-- the VCs focus on their own careers rather than building great companies or generating returns on the portfolio-- so the passive capitalists are arguably getting screwed. If concentrating the passive capital in Silicon Valley was generating decent returns, then there'd be no reasonable argue against it, but it's not.
This is a long-form way of saying that I agree with you. Replicating Silicon Valley is a backward-looking strategy that won't work in Chicago or New York. These cities, instead, should focus on their own assets. I think Chicago (or Seattle, or Boulder, or for a longer shot, Minneapolis) is a contender for being a different kind of technical leader in, say, 2030... because Chicago has an unusual advantage of a perceived playing-from-behind while actually not being that far behind; that's fairly antithetical to the Valley's Dunning-Kruger smug cloud... but it won't look like the existing Valley. It'll be something different.
Let's say Chicago (or Seattle, or New York) become tech hubs comparable to Silicon Valley. What's stopping the same bro culture from developing there?
Isn't the misogynistic bro culture a function of a sheltered, narrow upbringing and a nationwide cultural infatuation with "apps" (which only the talented, sought-after Software Engineers can provide)?
From my experience, the bros come from all across the US and Canada, and not just the San Francisco Bay Area. I've lived and worked here all my life, and most people in the tech industry actually moved here from other states. So what's to say they all won't move to Chicago as well?
Isn't the misogynistic bro culture a function of a sheltered, narrow upbringing and a nationwide cultural infatuation with "apps" (which only the talented, sought-after Software Engineers can provide)?
From my experience, the bros come from all across the US and Canada, and not just the San Francisco Bay Area. I've lived and worked here all my life, and most people in the tech industry actually moved here from other states. So what's to say they all won't move to Chicago as well?
[deleted]
As a Chicagoan and software engineer, here's my honest opinion of tech in Chicago: it's a sad, sorry place to be right now. I grew up in Chicago, went to college in Chicago and work in Chicago. It's been a roller coaster love-hate relationship for 30 years.
There's two major reasons I say it's so sad and sorry: a total lack of experienced, aggressive VC here, and a massive deficit of university-business partnership.
1. Chicago, sans VC
There's a lot of money in this city. There's also a fair amount of capital being thrown around at start ups and small businesses. However, this place lacks having a couple well established VC firms and proper incubators. Without having direct access to solid investors and capital, many of the companies I've seen here flounder and fail. Their boards are comprised of investors who haven't a single clue about how to advise and lead tech companies.
Additionally, tech as a whole is looked as a cheap commodity in Chicago. The salaries are weak, the benefits are meager, and the chance to grow is basically nonexistent. The overwhelming majority of developers I know are either miserable at large companies (banks, trading firms, healthcare, etc) or are being worked to death with virtually no acceptable future benefit at start ups.
2. Universities vs. Business
Let's look at this for what it is in Chicago: the business community and universities do not work with each other. There are so few partnerships for STEM students that it's basically pointless to go to college in Chicago if you're looking for curricula that is directly informed by industry. There's very little in the way of research being done with the guidance of industry or even an objective to productionize/market any of the work.
The universities themselves are also woefully underwhelming: Loyola, De Paul and UIC are basically glorified baby sitting campuses that blindly churn out subpar programmers. UChicago, on the other hand, has a solid engineering school but doesn't promote it at all. UIUC has one of the best engineering schools in the country, but it's two hours south of the city in the middle of a barren corn field. There's also a massive number of smaller liberal arts colleges in the burbs, but they lack exposure, the funding to recruit STEM students and have fewer still business connections in the city.
/rant; begin pep talk:
There's a lot of potential in Chicago, however (which is part of why I've stayed here). All it takes is an honest, concerted effort to get things rolling. As an example, what's happening in the Merchandise Mart and 1871 is a glimmer of hope of turning things around. It's far from perfect, but it's added a small amount of polish and professionalism to a stumbling tech sector in Chicago.
The article also cites a few large exits - which is nice and all, but it's still yet to be seen what is done with that money. Groupon (who I can't stand) turned their capital into a VC and have been building up start ups in the West Loop for a while. Again, it's not amazing, but it's encouraging to see people invest back into Chicago instead of splitting for the coasts.
The talent that is in Chicago is also top tier. One of the other reasons I've stayed here is because most developers in Chicago are very passionate, dedicated professionals. I've been all over the country and met other developers and interviewed in numerous places. I can honestly say that the caliber of talent here is on par with any other more prominent tech scene. What wins it is soft skills: Chicago is made of people who know how to be people. (New York is close second, though)
I believe that Chicago can be reborn as a tech hub, but it's going to take a lot of time, money and commitment to make it happen. This is going to require a lot from the local and state government, business, and universities. But most importantly, it's going to take people believing that it can happen.
There's two major reasons I say it's so sad and sorry: a total lack of experienced, aggressive VC here, and a massive deficit of university-business partnership.
1. Chicago, sans VC
There's a lot of money in this city. There's also a fair amount of capital being thrown around at start ups and small businesses. However, this place lacks having a couple well established VC firms and proper incubators. Without having direct access to solid investors and capital, many of the companies I've seen here flounder and fail. Their boards are comprised of investors who haven't a single clue about how to advise and lead tech companies.
Additionally, tech as a whole is looked as a cheap commodity in Chicago. The salaries are weak, the benefits are meager, and the chance to grow is basically nonexistent. The overwhelming majority of developers I know are either miserable at large companies (banks, trading firms, healthcare, etc) or are being worked to death with virtually no acceptable future benefit at start ups.
2. Universities vs. Business
Let's look at this for what it is in Chicago: the business community and universities do not work with each other. There are so few partnerships for STEM students that it's basically pointless to go to college in Chicago if you're looking for curricula that is directly informed by industry. There's very little in the way of research being done with the guidance of industry or even an objective to productionize/market any of the work.
The universities themselves are also woefully underwhelming: Loyola, De Paul and UIC are basically glorified baby sitting campuses that blindly churn out subpar programmers. UChicago, on the other hand, has a solid engineering school but doesn't promote it at all. UIUC has one of the best engineering schools in the country, but it's two hours south of the city in the middle of a barren corn field. There's also a massive number of smaller liberal arts colleges in the burbs, but they lack exposure, the funding to recruit STEM students and have fewer still business connections in the city.
/rant; begin pep talk:
There's a lot of potential in Chicago, however (which is part of why I've stayed here). All it takes is an honest, concerted effort to get things rolling. As an example, what's happening in the Merchandise Mart and 1871 is a glimmer of hope of turning things around. It's far from perfect, but it's added a small amount of polish and professionalism to a stumbling tech sector in Chicago.
The article also cites a few large exits - which is nice and all, but it's still yet to be seen what is done with that money. Groupon (who I can't stand) turned their capital into a VC and have been building up start ups in the West Loop for a while. Again, it's not amazing, but it's encouraging to see people invest back into Chicago instead of splitting for the coasts.
The talent that is in Chicago is also top tier. One of the other reasons I've stayed here is because most developers in Chicago are very passionate, dedicated professionals. I've been all over the country and met other developers and interviewed in numerous places. I can honestly say that the caliber of talent here is on par with any other more prominent tech scene. What wins it is soft skills: Chicago is made of people who know how to be people. (New York is close second, though)
I believe that Chicago can be reborn as a tech hub, but it's going to take a lot of time, money and commitment to make it happen. This is going to require a lot from the local and state government, business, and universities. But most importantly, it's going to take people believing that it can happen.
UChicago has a CS program, but does not have an undergraduate engineering school. There is a graduate level molecular engineering department, but that's about it.
No mention of Northwestern. While not always ranked super high on USNWR, its full to the gunnels of smart people that sometimes stay in the city. Although in my experience, if they are into startups rather than HFT/corporate gigs, they just pick up and move. Culturally its just not as friedly for new enterprises. When you tell someone you quit your job to start a company, they look at you like you are crazy, as if you didn't already know that.
Seth Kravitz the cofounder of TechNori (http://Technori.com) deserves a lot of credit for trying to fix a lot of this. 1871 is a nifty place as well but to get VC funding outside of that place a serial entrepreneur named RJ has set up http://ventureconnects.com to fix the gap. There is an exciting startup community in Chicago! Outside of the ones mentioned in the article these are worth mentioning:
http://Markitx.com http://StageBloc.com http://Bikespike.com http://Firemeibegyou.com http://Visuhire.com http://WeDeliver.us http://Spartzmedia.com http://Rscu.com http://Mjinews.com
http://Markitx.com http://StageBloc.com http://Bikespike.com http://Firemeibegyou.com http://Visuhire.com http://WeDeliver.us http://Spartzmedia.com http://Rscu.com http://Mjinews.com
I agree with the statement the most (also a Chicagoan). Chicago isn't a tech hub, and people need to stop saying it is. Why is it that our flagship university (UIUC) sends more people to Silicon Valley/Seattle than Chicago, which is only 2 hours away? They need to focus on bringing in some more mature tech companies (engineering teams, for one), and that can help potentially bring some more startups here.
There's actually a UIUC alum center in SF - http://www.sfbayillini.org/. The last estimate I heard was that there are somewhere around 40,000-50,000 UIUC graduates in the Bay Area.
I grew up in Chicago, graduated from UIUC, and I live in SF and work in Silicon Valley. When I moved here, I didn't need to make any new friends if I didn't want to - when I got here, my entire friend group and extended UIUC social network was already here. Shit, my girlfriend (also from UIUC) works at a startup in FiDi where both founders are from UIUC and there are many alums.
It's just too damn easy to move here for us.
I grew up in Chicago, graduated from UIUC, and I live in SF and work in Silicon Valley. When I moved here, I didn't need to make any new friends if I didn't want to - when I got here, my entire friend group and extended UIUC social network was already here. Shit, my girlfriend (also from UIUC) works at a startup in FiDi where both founders are from UIUC and there are many alums.
It's just too damn easy to move here for us.
Dumb question- is the SF alum center open to non-CoE folks?
I was a math major that took a handful of CS classes... and am in desperate need of employment, but no one seems interested in giving entry-level dev work.
I was a math major that took a handful of CS classes... and am in desperate need of employment, but no one seems interested in giving entry-level dev work.
I would guess so. There are tons of startups out there, you just have to find one. Try Angelist[1] or Crunchbase[2] and you should be able to find something. If not, contract work isn't bad either.
[1] http://angel.co
[2] http://crunchbase.com
[1] http://angel.co
[2] http://crunchbase.com
> UChicago, on the other hand, has a solid engineering school but doesn't promote it at all.
UChicago does not have an engineering school. The U of C considers itself a university in the classical liberal arts mold, and that means they don't bother themselves with applied programs like engineering.
UChicago does not have an engineering school. The U of C considers itself a university in the classical liberal arts mold, and that means they don't bother themselves with applied programs like engineering.
I thought Adrian Holovaty's take on Chicago's tech scene was really interesting: http://www.holovaty.com/writing/chicago-bootstrapping/
Trying to make Chicago a "tech hub" sounds about as practical as trying to make San Francisco a commodities/derivatives hub. What's the point? It's not as if tech is going to create jobs for all the struggling folks on the south side--indeed, tech is actively working to put those folks out of work.
Quite the contrary. CPS is making basic computer science a part of the K-12 curriculum, starting as earlier as Kindergarten[1]. It will take decades to see the actual results from this but its helping put the city on the right path.
[1]http://cps.edu/News/Press_releases/Pages/PR1_03_19_2014.aspx
[1]http://cps.edu/News/Press_releases/Pages/PR1_03_19_2014.aspx
Is funding and exits how we measure success now?
Do you have an alternative metric? I suppose we could count jobs created. My experience in the Bay Area is that as long as exits >> (funding * 2), it means that there are non-investors making some money and going on to create additional opportunities (sort of the criticality threshold for entrepreneurism).
Number of customers? Years in business? Profitable quarters? Going from startup to long-term business? Uhh, military contracts awarded? (okay, maybe not..)
Are the majority of startups only ever going to be short term ventures?
Are the majority of startups only ever going to be short term ventures?
Don't forget that Bootstrapping is all but religion here in Chicago. http://37signals.com/rework/
Funding? No. Exits? Yes.
Speaking of Chicago based startups, Reverb.com is hiring :)
http://reverb.com/page/jobs
Check out our engineering blog at: http://product.reverb.com
http://reverb.com/page/jobs
Check out our engineering blog at: http://product.reverb.com
Chicago's a great city, and I've spent a lot of time there. But....
- It's cold.
- The academic environment itself is better in general business. Two top MBA programs, but the best engineering school is far down state.
- It has winter.
- The ecosystem supports growth, but not hypergrowth. Companies like BaseCRM do well starting there, but move to Silicon Valley when it's time to explode.
- Snow without mountains
- Not as socially, ethnically or culturally diverse as many other tech hubs.
- Did I mention that it's cold?
All that said, I love to visit in the summer.
- It's cold.
- The academic environment itself is better in general business. Two top MBA programs, but the best engineering school is far down state.
- It has winter.
- The ecosystem supports growth, but not hypergrowth. Companies like BaseCRM do well starting there, but move to Silicon Valley when it's time to explode.
- Snow without mountains
- Not as socially, ethnically or culturally diverse as many other tech hubs.
- Did I mention that it's cold?
All that said, I love to visit in the summer.
"Not as socially, ethnically or culturally diverse as many other tech hubs." Chicago has world class museums, music venues, restaurants and ethnic enclaves like Ukrainian Village, Maxwell St., Devon, Pilsen.. and you mean to tell me there's more diversity up in the bay area? LOL
Your chances of seeing multi-ethnic couples, kids and neighborhoods is 10X in the Bay Area than Chicago. (And yes, I've lived in both)
I'd be very curious to see actual statistics around that. This is a belief that is highly subject to selection bias.
I myself don't like the Bay Area for my own perception of the lack of diversity there, but again I would not be surprised if that is my bias showing through.
(and for instance I live in a neighborhood that has a history of multi-ethnic families that goes back to before that was socially acceptable nearly anywhere else in America)
I myself don't like the Bay Area for my own perception of the lack of diversity there, but again I would not be surprised if that is my bias showing through.
(and for instance I live in a neighborhood that has a history of multi-ethnic families that goes back to before that was socially acceptable nearly anywhere else in America)
Chicago is pretty segregated as whole. The North side is predominantly Caucasian and the south side (save for a few neighborhoods) is predominantly African-American and Latino.
Sure Chicago is segregated (though I find the North/South boundary, like all generalizations misses a considerable amount of complexity) but this is true of all US cities.
San Francisco for instance is segregated pretty dramatically with the Asian population (and a mixture of Latinos) pushed to the western edge and the white population centrally located. Not to mention the elephant in the room of Oakland.
When we start talking about diversity of other sorts such as income, education, nationality etc the picture is similar.
That is to say, my experience of San Francisco was one of homogeny, the opposite of my experience of Chicago. But I've experienced Chicago more broadly as well, so as I say I'd like some numbers to backup the assertion that San Francisco is more welcoming of inter racial families.
San Francisco for instance is segregated pretty dramatically with the Asian population (and a mixture of Latinos) pushed to the western edge and the white population centrally located. Not to mention the elephant in the room of Oakland.
When we start talking about diversity of other sorts such as income, education, nationality etc the picture is similar.
That is to say, my experience of San Francisco was one of homogeny, the opposite of my experience of Chicago. But I've experienced Chicago more broadly as well, so as I say I'd like some numbers to backup the assertion that San Francisco is more welcoming of inter racial families.
Your chances of being priced out of your "ethnic" non gentrified neighborhood is also 10x in the Bay Area than Chicago. (And yes, I've also lived and worked in both)
What on earth does interracial marriage have to do with software companies? Do we need to fly planes full of singles between Hyderabad and Changdu to jumpstart startups in Asia?
Just looking at racial demographics, the level of diversity is about the same, it just skews differently. The % white and latino are about the same, but Chicago has as many black folks as San Francisco does asian folks, and vice versa. San Francisco's quite a bit more wealthy, though - median household income upward of $73k vs $47k. Perhaps that contributes to more of a perception of diversity for certain folks.
Chicago's hypercentralized layout may play a part there, too - the downtown area where tourists go is really just for tourists, and to some extent it's particularly for tourists making weekend trips from the suburbs. With the possible exception of Chinatown, all those great neighborhoods you're mentioning are pretty far off the beaten path for a visitor.
Chicago's hypercentralized layout may play a part there, too - the downtown area where tourists go is really just for tourists, and to some extent it's particularly for tourists making weekend trips from the suburbs. With the possible exception of Chinatown, all those great neighborhoods you're mentioning are pretty far off the beaten path for a visitor.
> San Francisco's quite a bit more wealthy, though - median household income upward of $73k vs $47k.
That $2k-ish per month is entirely eaten up by the cost of housing. Median rent for a 2BR in SF is $4,000/mo. Chicago is a little over half that. Not to mention much lower taxes than in California.
That $2k-ish per month is entirely eaten up by the cost of housing. Median rent for a 2BR in SF is $4,000/mo. Chicago is a little over half that. Not to mention much lower taxes than in California.
Chicago apartments are way cheaper than $2k a month. Most of my team pays less than $1k in great neighborhoods such as Lincoln Park and Wicker Park. If you want a building with a pool, doorman, gym, etc. then you can spend $2k a month but you would have to try to find a place that expensive.
To give perspective in Chicago $4k a month can you get a modern 3,000 sqft home or the penthouse in a swanky building vs a studio/ 1br in SF.
To give perspective in Chicago $4k a month can you get a modern 3,000 sqft home or the penthouse in a swanky building vs a studio/ 1br in SF.
If a 10 minute subway ride to Wicker Park is too far outside downtown, I don't know what to say.
> - Not as socially, ethnically or culturally diverse as many other tech hubs.
Chicago is almost an even mix of white/black/Hispanic, and has old money patronage that supports cultural amenities that go beyond what you have in SF. And there's no single social group that overwhelms Chicago's culture, like tech is doing to San Francisco and the Bay Area. Last time I got a haircut in Palo Alto, the woman cutting my hair was talking about startups.
The engineering school issue is definitely a fair point.
Chicago is almost an even mix of white/black/Hispanic, and has old money patronage that supports cultural amenities that go beyond what you have in SF. And there's no single social group that overwhelms Chicago's culture, like tech is doing to San Francisco and the Bay Area. Last time I got a haircut in Palo Alto, the woman cutting my hair was talking about startups.
The engineering school issue is definitely a fair point.
> The ecosystem supports growth, but not hypergrowth. Companies like BaseCRM do well starting there, but move to Silicon Valley when it's time to explode.
You could probably rewrite that as "not Silicon Valley". Or is there some other location you have in mind that could also support "hypergrowth"?
You could probably rewrite that as "not Silicon Valley". Or is there some other location you have in mind that could also support "hypergrowth"?
Illinois, Purdue, Wisconsin, Northwestern and to a lesser extent Michigan dump tons of engineers into Chicago.
Yes although arguably dumps just as many into the valley and NYC
And outside of that, there's a big loss due to proximity. Northwestern hasn't had nearly the impact on tech as Stanford or Cal, and UIUC's biggest alums are in the valley.
You make good points about the universities and growth potential, but you're dead wrong about the social aspects of the city.
Also, if you think the weather is bad here try living Cleveland - 4 month gig there was more than enough for me. I opted to move back during a blizzard.
Also, if you think the weather is bad here try living Cleveland - 4 month gig there was more than enough for me. I opted to move back during a blizzard.
coming over!
1) Lots of mediocre entrepreneurs that seem to have the same story:
I know these people exist everywhere today but there's an unusually large number concentrated in Chicago. Must be something in the water?
2) Developer compensation is roughly 10% lower (when adjusted for CoL) than it should be. And in terms of equity compensation Chicago isn't even in the same league as SV today. Getting >0.25% as the initial engineering hire is extremely rare here - even at companies that lack a technical co-founder.
This causes younger talent to get sucked to the coasts.
3) Many of the startups do not actively cultivate a technology or engineering culture. I think this largely stems from Point #1 - you really do need a tech co-founder to drive that side of the company.