Ask HN: Should I leave finance to become a developer?
11 comments
IMHO, not only is this a "grass is greener on the other side" situation, it is a drastic abandonment of accumulated potential energy (your degree + industry experience).
You would be abandoning a true niche skillset: there are some positions that are open only to people with an MS in FE plus C++ plus x years of industry experience plus a cogent answer to "What happens when there is a race condition between an Order Cancel Request and Executions? What FIX tags are involved? Give me an example". Many people would seriously envy you if you told them what you do.
BTW, many startups (not all) are all about the kludge : they are always in a time crunch and that's why languages that allow rapid iteration such as Ruby or JavaScript (quick wins, but long-term technical debt accumulation) win out over the more sturdy-but-time-consuming enterprise choices such as Java or C++. If your startup may not even exist 3 months after inception, it makes sense to rapidly discover if we can even get customer no. 1. For Goldman Sachs or other big bank with deep pockets, they can afford to allow you time to do things the right way from day one.
For some people, kludging is a personal habit. It is a dangerous one. One suggestion I have is to spend at least an hour daily on reading.
The way I see it, you only need a change of job to a better pay and more respect than $125k in NYC. You may be happy after that + finding more like-minded friends outside work? (maybe attend some tech meetups on meetup.com in NYC?) If your heart strings still tug at you, you can always consider switching over :-)
I used to work in the financial industry and switched over to a startup recently, but it was a decision that made sense for ME, not necessarily others. If you want to talk to me, please don't hesitate to contact.
You would be abandoning a true niche skillset: there are some positions that are open only to people with an MS in FE plus C++ plus x years of industry experience plus a cogent answer to "What happens when there is a race condition between an Order Cancel Request and Executions? What FIX tags are involved? Give me an example". Many people would seriously envy you if you told them what you do.
BTW, many startups (not all) are all about the kludge : they are always in a time crunch and that's why languages that allow rapid iteration such as Ruby or JavaScript (quick wins, but long-term technical debt accumulation) win out over the more sturdy-but-time-consuming enterprise choices such as Java or C++. If your startup may not even exist 3 months after inception, it makes sense to rapidly discover if we can even get customer no. 1. For Goldman Sachs or other big bank with deep pockets, they can afford to allow you time to do things the right way from day one.
For some people, kludging is a personal habit. It is a dangerous one. One suggestion I have is to spend at least an hour daily on reading.
The way I see it, you only need a change of job to a better pay and more respect than $125k in NYC. You may be happy after that + finding more like-minded friends outside work? (maybe attend some tech meetups on meetup.com in NYC?) If your heart strings still tug at you, you can always consider switching over :-)
I used to work in the financial industry and switched over to a startup recently, but it was a decision that made sense for ME, not necessarily others. If you want to talk to me, please don't hesitate to contact.
Hi vijucat, thanks for your response. I think you're right that if I left my current industry, I would feel like I wasted the time I put into getting into finance. That's what's holding me back.
I actually have no idea how to answer your race condition question because I'm not involved in parsing the FIX logs. I could probably start doing this kind of thing at my current job though. Are firms actively looking for people with these kinds of skills?
Also, I'm pretty opposed to working at a bank because of their hierarchy, culture, and morals. Knowing this, would you still recommend I stay in finance? (Pauses for laughter to subside). If you're wondering why I got into finance in the first place, it's because I wanted to work for buy-side firms, and wanted a lucrative job, and was a little naive. I fell into the sell-side, but work at a company much smaller than a bank.
Finally, you mentioned I'm underpaid--what do you recommend I ask for in terms of a raise, and after how many months would it be appropriate? I'm a few months in and this is my first job ever because I did the master's right after my bachelors.
I actually have no idea how to answer your race condition question because I'm not involved in parsing the FIX logs. I could probably start doing this kind of thing at my current job though. Are firms actively looking for people with these kinds of skills?
Also, I'm pretty opposed to working at a bank because of their hierarchy, culture, and morals. Knowing this, would you still recommend I stay in finance? (Pauses for laughter to subside). If you're wondering why I got into finance in the first place, it's because I wanted to work for buy-side firms, and wanted a lucrative job, and was a little naive. I fell into the sell-side, but work at a company much smaller than a bank.
Finally, you mentioned I'm underpaid--what do you recommend I ask for in terms of a raise, and after how many months would it be appropriate? I'm a few months in and this is my first job ever because I did the master's right after my bachelors.
I just gave the FIX log example because that's what I am familiar with, that's all. :-)
> Are firms actively looking for people with these kinds of skills?
Generally, I used to use efinancialcareers.com and other industry-specific recruiters to gauge demand. On the flow side / sell-side, unless you have elevated into a more quant-focused role, the IT folks often end up dealing with FIX, but I suppose it also depends on which instrument...I was in equities.
> Finally, you mentioned I'm underpaid--what do you recommend I ask for in terms of a raise, and after how many months would it be appropriate? I'm a few months in and this is my first job ever because I did the master's right after my bachelors.
Honestly, I don't know. I'm in Hong Kong and I don't have a pulse on NYC salaries right now. I somehow thought you had some years of experience, so the salary you mentioned may not even be low if this is your first job?
If I was in your situation, I would do a survey among my friends to gauge the appropriate salary. Be careful about recruiters' opinions, though : it benefits them to make you feel dissatisfied at your present job, so they may exaggerate how much you could get if you jumped jobs. If the gap is too much, I would immediately put in a word in with my manager : "Hey, I was just talking to my friends and I found out that I started off at the lowest salary among the bunch. On the average, the difference is $40k or more. Do you think you can revise my base or bonus at some point in the future?". It is politically important to put it across as a concern / request, not as an aggressive stand. If the gap in salary between you and your batchmates at other places is not that much, you can wait till the year-end / half-year review...
Plus, there are all the other issues of your employer's brand-name, the kind of work you do, how nice your colleagues are to you, how nice of a person is your boss, etc;...All these have tremendous value, too, and employers are keenly aware of their brand-value as well as whether the work you are being allowed to do is coveted, and don't hesitate to pay you less than market-rate if either factor comes into play!
> Knowing this, would you still recommend I stay in finance?
Yes, finance is so large an industry that stereotypes need not apply to you. For example, Jane Street is much more respectful of good coders / thinkers has a startup feel to it. You can aspire to join such a small firm rather than JPM, GS, or other axis-of-evil participants. :-) Or you can join a smaller buy-side shop, etc;
The top three things I would suggest doing are a) network; need not be aggressive; just do things you like with other people. Go to an R meetup or python meetup, for example. Meetups hosted at other firms' offices are a great way to check them out and get intel on what the industry is like outside your firm b) identify fields of interest and become good at them; could be tech, could be particular instruments of trading, etc; c) wait. Wait until the field and the players become more clear. Wait until you come across a firm or opportunity that makes you go, "Wow, I'd like to work there / on that!". Then the energy will come to you naturally. Or maybe you see them all and it becomes really clear that you don't even want to be in NY?
I think it's great that you posted on HN and asked for advice. It's great that you acknowledged that you are dissatisfied. The tricky part after seeing a problem is waiting. :-) The natural tendency is to jump to a solution, and often, we just simply pick the thing that looks most different from where we're uncomfortable (startups instead of finance; SV instead of NY, etc;). Staying with the discomfort till your feelings crystallize more clearly is probably the most tricky yet important skill for anyone.
> Are firms actively looking for people with these kinds of skills?
Generally, I used to use efinancialcareers.com and other industry-specific recruiters to gauge demand. On the flow side / sell-side, unless you have elevated into a more quant-focused role, the IT folks often end up dealing with FIX, but I suppose it also depends on which instrument...I was in equities.
> Finally, you mentioned I'm underpaid--what do you recommend I ask for in terms of a raise, and after how many months would it be appropriate? I'm a few months in and this is my first job ever because I did the master's right after my bachelors.
Honestly, I don't know. I'm in Hong Kong and I don't have a pulse on NYC salaries right now. I somehow thought you had some years of experience, so the salary you mentioned may not even be low if this is your first job?
If I was in your situation, I would do a survey among my friends to gauge the appropriate salary. Be careful about recruiters' opinions, though : it benefits them to make you feel dissatisfied at your present job, so they may exaggerate how much you could get if you jumped jobs. If the gap is too much, I would immediately put in a word in with my manager : "Hey, I was just talking to my friends and I found out that I started off at the lowest salary among the bunch. On the average, the difference is $40k or more. Do you think you can revise my base or bonus at some point in the future?". It is politically important to put it across as a concern / request, not as an aggressive stand. If the gap in salary between you and your batchmates at other places is not that much, you can wait till the year-end / half-year review...
Plus, there are all the other issues of your employer's brand-name, the kind of work you do, how nice your colleagues are to you, how nice of a person is your boss, etc;...All these have tremendous value, too, and employers are keenly aware of their brand-value as well as whether the work you are being allowed to do is coveted, and don't hesitate to pay you less than market-rate if either factor comes into play!
> Knowing this, would you still recommend I stay in finance?
Yes, finance is so large an industry that stereotypes need not apply to you. For example, Jane Street is much more respectful of good coders / thinkers has a startup feel to it. You can aspire to join such a small firm rather than JPM, GS, or other axis-of-evil participants. :-) Or you can join a smaller buy-side shop, etc;
The top three things I would suggest doing are a) network; need not be aggressive; just do things you like with other people. Go to an R meetup or python meetup, for example. Meetups hosted at other firms' offices are a great way to check them out and get intel on what the industry is like outside your firm b) identify fields of interest and become good at them; could be tech, could be particular instruments of trading, etc; c) wait. Wait until the field and the players become more clear. Wait until you come across a firm or opportunity that makes you go, "Wow, I'd like to work there / on that!". Then the energy will come to you naturally. Or maybe you see them all and it becomes really clear that you don't even want to be in NY?
I think it's great that you posted on HN and asked for advice. It's great that you acknowledged that you are dissatisfied. The tricky part after seeing a problem is waiting. :-) The natural tendency is to jump to a solution, and often, we just simply pick the thing that looks most different from where we're uncomfortable (startups instead of finance; SV instead of NY, etc;). Staying with the discomfort till your feelings crystallize more clearly is probably the most tricky yet important skill for anyone.
So if you were making $200k+ you wouldn't be wanting to be a developer?
In which case, you either don't generate enough value in your current role or you haven't negotiated your salary effectively. $125k pa does seem low for a good quant on Wall St. The amount of effort required to be a good, thus valuable and well paid developer, is considerable. Similar level of effort invested in your current skillset might see you advance in your present career track.
In which case, you either don't generate enough value in your current role or you haven't negotiated your salary effectively. $125k pa does seem low for a good quant on Wall St. The amount of effort required to be a good, thus valuable and well paid developer, is considerable. Similar level of effort invested in your current skillset might see you advance in your present career track.
Good question - between the financial crisis, regulatory overhaul on Wall Street, and tech boom, I've run into many people in this situation in recent years. In NYC, the quant-to-data scientist transition has been the more seamless one. Alternatively, I've occasionally worked with quants who are genuinely excited about web development - fortunately, NYC has great options for learning & networking here.
You provided a decent background, but I don't want speculate and offer counter-productive advice based on limited information. Depending on your interests and experience, as well as the the different types of companies & roles, there is much to consider!
I'm happy to discuss options further - feel free to e-mail me at [redacted].
You provided a decent background, but I don't want speculate and offer counter-productive advice based on limited information. Depending on your interests and experience, as well as the the different types of companies & roles, there is much to consider!
I'm happy to discuss options further - feel free to e-mail me at [redacted].
If you ever write a blog post about your perspectives on Wall St, please post a link here - would love to read it.
Thanks everyone for your replies. I think vijucat's phrase "grass is greener" describes what most of you are saying, and gives me hope to continue with my current career path.
My performance review is coming up and based on what a lot of you are saying, I'm underpaid and should ask for a raise. This is my first job (did BS then MS right after) and I've only been here a few months. Any tips about how much I should ask for? Based on Glassdoor I'm thinking about asking for 120K + 25K bonus, but is this still too little?
My performance review is coming up and based on what a lot of you are saying, I'm underpaid and should ask for a raise. This is my first job (did BS then MS right after) and I've only been here a few months. Any tips about how much I should ask for? Based on Glassdoor I'm thinking about asking for 120K + 25K bonus, but is this still too little?
I think there are great and shitty jobs in every industry. Switching to tech isn't necessarily a silver-bullet, there are more than a few soul-crushing tech jobs out there (think Office Space), and comparing-yourself with peers won't stop just because you switch industries. The feeling of needing to keep-up-with-the-Joneses is a pretty universal phenomenon.
That being said, yes for your skillset you should be able to pull in a slightly higher salary soon (if not immediately). But I'd be very picky about what company you switch to. With many startups comes a very large amount of risk (the bank accounts of many startups will have less than 1% of the funds of your current employer). The hours will be insane, and it's quite possible that you'll never actually make any cool shit...or money. But that's all case-specific. Do your research on the particular organization you're thinking about joining, and make sure you love the people there, because you're gonna be spending a lot of time with them.
If you'd like to wade in / test-the-waters, try to freelance on the side for awhile; or join a startup that isn't looking for a full-time commitment.
That being said, yes for your skillset you should be able to pull in a slightly higher salary soon (if not immediately). But I'd be very picky about what company you switch to. With many startups comes a very large amount of risk (the bank accounts of many startups will have less than 1% of the funds of your current employer). The hours will be insane, and it's quite possible that you'll never actually make any cool shit...or money. But that's all case-specific. Do your research on the particular organization you're thinking about joining, and make sure you love the people there, because you're gonna be spending a lot of time with them.
If you'd like to wade in / test-the-waters, try to freelance on the side for awhile; or join a startup that isn't looking for a full-time commitment.
That's funny, because I'm currently a developer thinking of jumping to finance for the money. No matter what I do, I will always continue doing development on my own time in the form of side projects. Today with stuff like Github and if you have the time, mingling with other developers isn't too hard (if you don't mind the distance).
Whether you work in finance or as a developer, your worth to your employer is dependent upon the value you bring to your employer. Might be an idea to look at what you enjoy instead of being fixated on the money.
Thanks for your reply. What are you thinking about doing in finance?
Its ironic that a lot of developers feel the opposite of what the OP is describing. Developers think wall street pays more and wall street (OP) thinks developers make "way more".
Like others have already pointed out, OP you seem to be underpaid in NYC in your position, but I wouldn't rush to switch fields. Stay with what you are doing and try to identify your value and skillset which you can then use to negotiate a higher salary.
Like others have already pointed out, OP you seem to be underpaid in NYC in your position, but I wouldn't rush to switch fields. Stay with what you are doing and try to identify your value and skillset which you can then use to negotiate a higher salary.
I think the question you need to ask yourself is what do you actually want to do?
As someone who works as a developer in the HFT space, I can back up what others are saying - you could be making more than you are now either as a quant or a developer (without switching industries, if finance really interests you).
Do what you think will make you happy in the long run, and then spend the time to invest in those skills.
As someone who works as a developer in the HFT space, I can back up what others are saying - you could be making more than you are now either as a quant or a developer (without switching industries, if finance really interests you).
Do what you think will make you happy in the long run, and then spend the time to invest in those skills.
Money, People, & The Actual Work involved are the primary drivers influencing any career move.
Leverage your quant & trading background-- look for developers working on tools/programs/services for that space. Reach out to them for professional networking. See if they would be open to sharing their perspective. Linkedin is a good place to sort profiles.
Leverage your quant & trading background-- look for developers working on tools/programs/services for that space. Reach out to them for professional networking. See if they would be open to sharing their perspective. Linkedin is a good place to sort profiles.
short time to read/comment: software developers don't operate in an idea/knowledge vacuum. Your current profession will be your greatest source of those ideas - don't abandon it. Work on both.
do you want to manage finance in your life or create softwares ?
--Work with people who have more similar personalities/outside interests/sense of humor as me
--Sick of envying developers have fun, make cool shit, and make money
Here are some details:
--I work as a quant doing research at a firm on wall street (recently got masters in financial engineering). I thought going into finance my salary would surpass ~200k after a few years, and as a developer, it would max out around that level. But, my salary now is about 100k (w/ 25k bonus) and I feel like I could be making way more as a developer right now...and I'm always thinking "that could be me" about my developer friends.
--Whatever I need to get done, I kludge away (usually in Python, R, or C/C++/C#) until it works; I have no concept of elegance in this context. Also, I'm usually the only one writing the programs--I've never worked in a collaborative development environment, since I mainly do research. I'm not sure how to get from this level to being a developer?
--I write programs to analyze data, which frequently involve machine learning/AI algorithms. Are companies looking for this in a web developer? Or should I try to tailor my skills more towards a data science position? Or is there a path you would recommend particularly for someone with this skill set?
--I want to stay in NYC
What I'm hoping to get out of asking this question on HN is some guidance to help me realize if I'm on the right track, or if I should completely change my life and go down an entirely different career path as a dev. I'm pretty lost when it comes to the tech industry right now and am glad I started reaching out for help. Any advice you could give from your experience in this industry would mean a great deal to me.