On building portable Linux binaries(sagargv.blogspot.com)
sagargv.blogspot.com
On building portable Linux binaries
http://sagargv.blogspot.com/2014/09/on-building-portable-linux-binaries.html
8 comments
I've always thought it would be interesting to have a statically linked executable that was actually statically linked to externally-visible, signed copies of shared libs that are embedded in themselves, so that the dynamic linker could recognize when two processes, both of which are statically linked, could still share the same pages in memory because they have both statically linked the same lib+version. In other words, you get the memory and io savings of dynamic libs, but you get none of the dependency resolution problems (and none of the disk space savings).
I think the same could be done much easier using KSM [1] (Kernel SamePage Merging), which Linux now has.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_SamePage_Merging_%28KSM...
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_SamePage_Merging_%28KSM...
Except KSM is not as well-suited to this problem as a dynamic linker would be, since KSM doesn't have as much insight into the semantics of the pages it's analyzing. I don't know all the details of how KSM works, but it must apply heuristics to predict whether a page is going to get written to, whereas the dynamic linker knows exactly which sections of dynamic libs can be shared. Not to mention that KSM works less efficiently by recognizing duplicate pages after the fact and merging them, rather than skipping the duplication in the first place.
That's not to say that the KSM approach wouldn't be a big benefit (and you're right, it's much easier given that it's completely transparent), but it's definitely a less precise way to approach this specific problem.
That's not to say that the KSM approach wouldn't be a big benefit (and you're right, it's much easier given that it's completely transparent), but it's definitely a less precise way to approach this specific problem.
> Except KSM is not as well-suited to this problem as a dynamic linker would be, since KSM doesn't have as much insight into the semantics of the pages it's analyzing.
Why would it need those insights? If two pages are identical, KSM de-duplicates them. The linker-assisted method would do the same, only earlier.
< [...] it must apply heuristics to predict whether a page is going to get written to, whereas the dynamic linker knows exactly which sections of dynamic libs can be shared.
I'm not sure which heuristics you're referring to. I think KSM de-duplicates the pages and sets the single remaining copy as copy-on-write, to detect writes (I wouldn't call this a heuristic). Both KSM and the dynamic linker would only be able to de-duplicate entire pages, since that's what the granularity the OS provides for sharing memory between processes.
> Not to mention that KSM works less efficiently by recognizing duplicate pages after the fact and merging them, rather than skipping the duplication in the first place.
OK, fair enough.
Why would it need those insights? If two pages are identical, KSM de-duplicates them. The linker-assisted method would do the same, only earlier.
< [...] it must apply heuristics to predict whether a page is going to get written to, whereas the dynamic linker knows exactly which sections of dynamic libs can be shared.
I'm not sure which heuristics you're referring to. I think KSM de-duplicates the pages and sets the single remaining copy as copy-on-write, to detect writes (I wouldn't call this a heuristic). Both KSM and the dynamic linker would only be able to de-duplicate entire pages, since that's what the granularity the OS provides for sharing memory between processes.
> Not to mention that KSM works less efficiently by recognizing duplicate pages after the fact and merging them, rather than skipping the duplication in the first place.
OK, fair enough.
> I'm not sure which heuristics you're referring to.
As I said, the details are somewhat hazy for me, but my understanding is that KSM maintains a notion of how recently and how frequently a page changes, in order to determine whether it's a good candidate for deduplication or whether that would just be a waste of time that causes unnecessary page faults. I could be completely wrong on this, but I don't think it's quite as simple as "if two pages are identical, KSM de-duplicates them."
As I said, the details are somewhat hazy for me, but my understanding is that KSM maintains a notion of how recently and how frequently a page changes, in order to determine whether it's a good candidate for deduplication or whether that would just be a waste of time that causes unnecessary page faults. I could be completely wrong on this, but I don't think it's quite as simple as "if two pages are identical, KSM de-duplicates them."
You can use Gentoo Prefix for this:
https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/prefix/
It builds everyting except libc. Support for building libc is under development by the project. I used an early version of it to provide a build environment for the ZFSOnLinux kernel modules on CoreOS:
https://github.com/ClusterHQ/flocker/blob/zfs-on-coreos-tuto...
https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/prefix/
It builds everyting except libc. Support for building libc is under development by the project. I used an early version of it to provide a build environment for the ZFSOnLinux kernel modules on CoreOS:
https://github.com/ClusterHQ/flocker/blob/zfs-on-coreos-tuto...
Another option:
Most/all modern distributions can run programs built with lsbcc[1] from the Linux Standard Base workgroup. The lsbdev environment links your program against "stub" .so files that advertise appropriate symbol versions, and prevent referencing library symbols that are not defined in the standard.
It can be somewhat of a hassle to get programs to build in this environment, but it greatly reduces the chances of finding an incompatibility when the program is later run under an unexpected Linux distribution. LSB includes an app checker[2] which can generate reports[3] showing compatibility with various distributions.
[1] https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/en/Book/HowToDevel
[2] http://ispras.linuxbase.org/index.php/About_Linux_Applicatio...
[3] http://ispras.linuxbase.org/index.php/File:LAC_TestReportDis...
Most/all modern distributions can run programs built with lsbcc[1] from the Linux Standard Base workgroup. The lsbdev environment links your program against "stub" .so files that advertise appropriate symbol versions, and prevent referencing library symbols that are not defined in the standard.
It can be somewhat of a hassle to get programs to build in this environment, but it greatly reduces the chances of finding an incompatibility when the program is later run under an unexpected Linux distribution. LSB includes an app checker[2] which can generate reports[3] showing compatibility with various distributions.
[1] https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/en/Book/HowToDevel
[2] http://ispras.linuxbase.org/index.php/About_Linux_Applicatio...
[3] http://ispras.linuxbase.org/index.php/File:LAC_TestReportDis...
By far the most reliable way I've found to run old binaries on Linux is ... to run a Windows binary under Wine.
We have the portable all-free-software binary handler, yay! It just has Win32 in the middle ...
We have the portable all-free-software binary handler, yay! It just has Win32 in the middle ...
Perhaps it's a side-effect of the open-source (or "source available but under a restrictive license") nature of *nix, and the larger number of systems it runs on that has lead to the "just compile the source on your system" way of doing things that makes the source more portable, but customises the binaries to the specific system(s) they're compiled for. Hardcoding the path to the dynamic linker in the executable certainly doesn't help...
It's definitely far easier to make small, self-contained binaries for e.g. x86-Windows versions that'll work from Win95 onwards than for, e.g. all x86-PC Linux distros in the last 20 years. Those compiled on one version of Windows, if linked to only the relatively stable set of system libraries and APIs, and not needing anything else, will simply "just work" with no installation, which I think is one of the nicer aspects of the Windows platform; the idea of "portable apps" seems far less developed on Linux.
(I suppose you could also use Java...)
It's definitely far easier to make small, self-contained binaries for e.g. x86-Windows versions that'll work from Win95 onwards than for, e.g. all x86-PC Linux distros in the last 20 years. Those compiled on one version of Windows, if linked to only the relatively stable set of system libraries and APIs, and not needing anything else, will simply "just work" with no installation, which I think is one of the nicer aspects of the Windows platform; the idea of "portable apps" seems far less developed on Linux.
(I suppose you could also use Java...)
I keep hearing that, but Linux has quite good backwards compatibility. I run a couple of 15 year old statically built executables on Linux, not because I have to but simply because I've kept them around. I believe Linux also keeps optional support for pre-ELF binaries, and that's even older. So I think Linux fares quite well in this regard.
Most things that create problems are auxilliary programs that people no longer keep around, such as mail transport software that has changed behaviour, or protocols that have changed. Those are things that would give you trouble on any platform.
Most things that create problems are auxilliary programs that people no longer keep around, such as mail transport software that has changed behaviour, or protocols that have changed. Those are things that would give you trouble on any platform.
Linus Torvalds was just at Debconf14 and specifically addressed how broken shipping application binaries for Linux desktop is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8
The most relevant parts start at about 6min and 41min.
Highlights:
- .deb vs .rpm misses the whole point. The problem is application writers just want to ship an application binary for "Linux", but it is a nightmare.
- Except for the kernel which strives for ABI stability, everything else in the Linux distros constantly break binary compatibility, including the most important library, glibc.
- Package maintainers are forced to use shared libraries for everything, even packages that are unstable and not well used which means apps will break
- You can't install packages under these systems as non-root
- He ships binaries for his SCUBA diving app for Windows and OS X. He only ships source for Linux. That's sad.
- Static linking is a possible solution, but that is sad too.
(For the record, he points to Valve as a potential savior but says they will probably do the sad thing of static linking. They aren't doing quite this. They ship a set of dynamic libraries called Steam Runtime that all Steam games can draw from. Better than static linking, but still kind of sad.)
At the 41 minute segment, a user celebrates the "good backwards compatibility" for a 19 year binary he still has, and Linus points out that is "patting ourselves on the back", but doesn't address the real compatibility issues which are modern binaries.
I can attest to the glibc hell. Another simple example is clock_gettime(). Just trying to ship a binary between Ubuntu 14.04 and 12.04 is enough to bang your head. (I think this problem appears between 12 and 13 too.) On one version, it is found in glibc, but in the other it is in librt. This prevents the binary from working on both.
Linus also criticizes Java (mentioned in the parent). That didn't work for him either.
As for Windows, Windows still has DLL-hell. It's sad that Microsoft won't ship their Visual Studio common C and C++ runtimes with the OS (MSVC*dll), even though they finally put version numbers in the file name now. And they make it harder than it should be to deploy your app with them. However, this is still a vast improvement over what Linux distros are doing (as Linus points out).
(edit: formatting)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PmHRSeA2c8
The most relevant parts start at about 6min and 41min.
Highlights:
- .deb vs .rpm misses the whole point. The problem is application writers just want to ship an application binary for "Linux", but it is a nightmare.
- Except for the kernel which strives for ABI stability, everything else in the Linux distros constantly break binary compatibility, including the most important library, glibc.
- Package maintainers are forced to use shared libraries for everything, even packages that are unstable and not well used which means apps will break
- You can't install packages under these systems as non-root
- He ships binaries for his SCUBA diving app for Windows and OS X. He only ships source for Linux. That's sad.
- Static linking is a possible solution, but that is sad too.
(For the record, he points to Valve as a potential savior but says they will probably do the sad thing of static linking. They aren't doing quite this. They ship a set of dynamic libraries called Steam Runtime that all Steam games can draw from. Better than static linking, but still kind of sad.)
At the 41 minute segment, a user celebrates the "good backwards compatibility" for a 19 year binary he still has, and Linus points out that is "patting ourselves on the back", but doesn't address the real compatibility issues which are modern binaries.
I can attest to the glibc hell. Another simple example is clock_gettime(). Just trying to ship a binary between Ubuntu 14.04 and 12.04 is enough to bang your head. (I think this problem appears between 12 and 13 too.) On one version, it is found in glibc, but in the other it is in librt. This prevents the binary from working on both.
Linus also criticizes Java (mentioned in the parent). That didn't work for him either.
As for Windows, Windows still has DLL-hell. It's sad that Microsoft won't ship their Visual Studio common C and C++ runtimes with the OS (MSVC*dll), even though they finally put version numbers in the file name now. And they make it harder than it should be to deploy your app with them. However, this is still a vast improvement over what Linux distros are doing (as Linus points out).
(edit: formatting)
I know it's not a panacea, but the Open Build Service is helpful in building packages for multiple distributions.
I recently started using Fedora, love it, hate the lack of software. I could always contribute to packaging software not yet available, like e.g. Atom, but in the time I could waste learning to do these things I could of installed Ubuntu. I'll keep it for now, though. Maybe I'll figure out how to package and somehow release some lovely RPM's. I love Fedora, hate the lack of packages.
I wonder if containers on the desktop would be useful for this kind of situation. You could have containers for different distributions, or even different versions of a distribution. For example, one for Ubuntu 14.04 and a different one for 13.10. The containers wouldn't do much, other than take up filesystem space, until they're needed.
This wouldn't work if the software requires a kernel module that isn't packaged for your distribution. It also wouldn't be particularly useful for a file system navigator or something that needs to see the rest of the system. That should still leave in quite a bit of useful software.
This wouldn't work if the software requires a kernel module that isn't packaged for your distribution. It also wouldn't be particularly useful for a file system navigator or something that needs to see the rest of the system. That should still leave in quite a bit of useful software.
> I wonder if containers on the desktop would be useful for this kind of situation.
Wouldn't that negate the benefits of things like shared libraries?
Wouldn't that negate the benefits of things like shared libraries?
http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/dynamic-linking/
..comes to my mind. Shared libraries and their advantages are at least.. controversal.
..comes to my mind. Shared libraries and their advantages are at least.. controversal.
What about the benefit of being able to (e.g.) update OpenSSL across the board? Imagine if each application needed a HeartBleed update because every application had their own copy of OpenSSL. How would that be preferable?
That page is disappointingly light on actual arguments. Its points can be summed up thus:
-Sun presented a paper saying it wasn't worth it
-Plan9 doesn't use dynamic linking and some of its utilities have smaller binaries than similarly named utilities on FreeBSD
-People like dynamic linking for the same reason they believe in god
-Statically linked binaries aren't as portable as one would like.
It reads like more of a rant to be honest.
-Sun presented a paper saying it wasn't worth it
-Plan9 doesn't use dynamic linking and some of its utilities have smaller binaries than similarly named utilities on FreeBSD
-People like dynamic linking for the same reason they believe in god
-Statically linked binaries aren't as portable as one would like.
It reads like more of a rant to be honest.
[deleted]
A made a tool called Whack [1] as an attempt to solve a small part of the problem. The idea was that you could write scripts that would build statically-linked versions of binaries, such as Apache HTTPD [2]. Then, you could run a command like:
I never really the pushed the idea further since I think doing a decent job requires a lot of time and effort, and it solves something which is a minor annoyance for me, rather than causing significant pain. I do still use it for when I need to quickly get a WordPress server for development up and running since it's one command to deploy from scratch.
It feels to me like there's lots of scope for something similar to apt-get that builds and installs static binaries (or, at the very least, lets you install to different directories without root, similar to, say, virtualenv for Python or RVM for Ruby).
EDIT: actually, from a quick glance, it seems like Gentoo Prefix [3], as mentioned by ryao, allows you to install things as you normally would on a Gentoo machine, but without being root and with a prefix of your choosing.
[1] https://github.com/mwilliamson/whack [2] https://github.com/mwilliamson/whack-package-apache2-mod-php... [3] https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/prefix/
whack install git+https://github.com/mwilliamson/whack-package-apache2-mod-php5 apps/apache2
I never really the pushed the idea further since I think doing a decent job requires a lot of time and effort, and it solves something which is a minor annoyance for me, rather than causing significant pain. I do still use it for when I need to quickly get a WordPress server for development up and running since it's one command to deploy from scratch.
It feels to me like there's lots of scope for something similar to apt-get that builds and installs static binaries (or, at the very least, lets you install to different directories without root, similar to, say, virtualenv for Python or RVM for Ruby).
EDIT: actually, from a quick glance, it seems like Gentoo Prefix [3], as mentioned by ryao, allows you to install things as you normally would on a Gentoo machine, but without being root and with a prefix of your choosing.
[1] https://github.com/mwilliamson/whack [2] https://github.com/mwilliamson/whack-package-apache2-mod-php... [3] https://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/prefix/
It's sad that this is still a problem. Every time it comes up the old "just open source it", "just dynamically link everything", "just make a package for every distribution and version of libc" people come out and stop and sort of progress.
Autopackage gave up because of this lack of progress.
So we are left with two equally awful "solutions":
1. Do all your development on years-old linux distros. 2. Use docker and essentially package an entire distro with your app.
This is never a problem on Windows.
Autopackage gave up because of this lack of progress.
So we are left with two equally awful "solutions":
1. Do all your development on years-old linux distros. 2. Use docker and essentially package an entire distro with your app.
This is never a problem on Windows.
> ... never a problem on windows
Hello? Dll-hell? Outdated dlls bundeled with an app? This essentially the problem distros solve; fixed target against which to compile..
Hello? Dll-hell? Outdated dlls bundeled with an app? This essentially the problem distros solve; fixed target against which to compile..
Erm, no?
Try installing a copy of Half-Life 1 from '98 on a modern machine (go on, I'll wait).
Note that it runs just fine, other than being confused if you've got more than 4GB of ram (which you can fake and fix in other ways).
Windows had a lot of DLL issues, but the VC redstributables and vendors packaging their own blessed libraries solves almost all of those issues. I'll take that over the crackheaded Linux story any day.
Try installing a copy of Half-Life 1 from '98 on a modern machine (go on, I'll wait).
Note that it runs just fine, other than being confused if you've got more than 4GB of ram (which you can fake and fix in other ways).
Windows had a lot of DLL issues, but the VC redstributables and vendors packaging their own blessed libraries solves almost all of those issues. I'll take that over the crackheaded Linux story any day.
75% of all VMWare installations are running Windows because you can't disentangle the application from the operating system.
There's a really cool technology out there that I am working with in the Docker ecosystem to help solve this.
My dream is to be able to solely package an application and its dependencies in a docker container so it can be used like a static binary.
I'm working with a partner to premiere something like this at DockerCon EU.
My dream is to be able to solely package an application and its dependencies in a docker container so it can be used like a static binary.
I'm working with a partner to premiere something like this at DockerCon EU.