Germany is pressuring Neocities to censor a disclosure of their censorship(neocities.org)
neocities.org
Germany is pressuring Neocities to censor a disclosure of their censorship
http://neocities.org/blog/german-censorship
10 comments
> If I publish a list in pig-latin, can I deem it illegal to translate that into English?
Yes, you are the sole publisher and owner of the rights to your list (IANAL but I took a course of history of publishing.). That's why you have some copyright notices in translated novels such as ~"publishing rights for the french/english/spanish version granted to $publisher".
> If I publish something in 8-bit ASCII, can I deem it illegal to "translate" that into English?
I am almost sure that in that case the appropriate verb is "to transcode" or "to convert". This is not a translation but a re-transcription which is still governed by copyright laws anyway.
Keep in mind that copyright laws regarding books are based on the publishing rights the author sells to a publisher not the ideas expressed.
Yes, you are the sole publisher and owner of the rights to your list (IANAL but I took a course of history of publishing.). That's why you have some copyright notices in translated novels such as ~"publishing rights for the french/english/spanish version granted to $publisher".
> If I publish something in 8-bit ASCII, can I deem it illegal to "translate" that into English?
I am almost sure that in that case the appropriate verb is "to transcode" or "to convert". This is not a translation but a re-transcription which is still governed by copyright laws anyway.
Keep in mind that copyright laws regarding books are based on the publishing rights the author sells to a publisher not the ideas expressed.
IANAL, but many European countries have something called "Database copyright" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_European_...). Basically if you build a database of something you can get a copyright for the database as a whole, even if there's no copyright for the individual items. I wouldn't surprise me if the German government claims that their list falls under these database copyright laws. But even if that's the case there would still be the question how copyright treaties affect such a copyright and if this copyright is enforcable in the United States.
Hm. Would that still apply given that - if I read this right - the list of hashes are distributed publicly?
What is the license under which those hashes are distributed? Just because something is distributed publicly doesn't mean it can be legally redistributed.
Then don't redistribute it, just distribute the step-by-step directions required to reverse it [1] (as is done on a site linked by the original article)
[1] - of course, directions could be just source that does it for you, a la DeCSS
[1] - of course, directions could be just source that does it for you, a la DeCSS
Isnt that basically the DMCA?
[deleted]
Here is the censored plaintext list: http://pastebin.com/NgZRSJ54
And here is a zip of the neocities site, including the censored lists: http://pomf.se/dbhmba.zip
And here is a zip of the neocities site, including the censored lists: http://pomf.se/dbhmba.zip
> 01c62dc977afbbe6e5f3367cbe178d91 tag/anders-breivik
> 032136816da36d1cd24f67eb8d404ea2 schuelercd
> 034bf0787b9eaca0a73110b0e0250c59 news/96/62/Srebrenica---Die-Buehne-des-Genozid
> 0666f0acdeed38d4cd9084ade1739498 fp
> 068b3740462938d378ffcb768714a366 video/view/
Not sure what's going on here.
Interesting to see Breivik listed though among all the porn.
> 032136816da36d1cd24f67eb8d404ea2 schuelercd
> 034bf0787b9eaca0a73110b0e0250c59 news/96/62/Srebrenica---Die-Buehne-des-Genozid
> 0666f0acdeed38d4cd9084ade1739498 fp
> 068b3740462938d378ffcb768714a366 video/view/
Not sure what's going on here.
Interesting to see Breivik listed though among all the porn.
http://bible.org
Huh. That's odd.
Huh. That's odd.
> http://nakedoldies.com
That's a bit mean spirited and ageist.
That's a bit mean spirited and ageist.
> 536931d80decb18c33db9612bdd004d4 susi
Poor women called Susi.
Poor women called Susi.
c7e5b8832a5400f627a467aea1524ad9 forum/
Am I reading this correctly, are they banning all URLs containing a "forum" subdirectory?
Am I reading this correctly, are they banning all URLs containing a "forum" subdirectory?
In contrast, the Italian site of censored sites (DNS domains) is public.
The bad thing is that it is "published" as a series of faxes to ISPs. Luckily those have been digitalized and put in a database: http://censura.bofh.it/ http://censura.bofh.it/elenchi.html
The bad thing is that it is "published" as a series of faxes to ISPs. Luckily those have been digitalized and put in a database: http://censura.bofh.it/ http://censura.bofh.it/elenchi.html
This article does a poor job at explaining the situation.
This is about a group of lists called index. They're created by the BPjM (Federal Department for Media Harmful to Young Persons). They're kind of the strictest level of an age rating.
You're still allowed to publish the stuff to people that are over 18 years old. However you're also only allowed to advertise to people over 18 year old. There are lists where they suspect it's actually illegal to publish (child porn, porn with animals, hate crime like the game KZ Tycoon, ...), however it's up to the courts to decide if it is illegal if someone publishes this stuff.
So what does this mean for websites? You can still go to them if you type in the addresses, there's no DNS blocking or something else in place. Links to those websites however are considered as advertisement and thus not allowed for websites reachable by minors. This is the reason the list of URL's is separate from the other lists and is kept secret.
Also note, that websites doing a real age check (not just clicking yes I'm 18) shouldn't be on the list.
This is about a group of lists called index. They're created by the BPjM (Federal Department for Media Harmful to Young Persons). They're kind of the strictest level of an age rating.
You're still allowed to publish the stuff to people that are over 18 years old. However you're also only allowed to advertise to people over 18 year old. There are lists where they suspect it's actually illegal to publish (child porn, porn with animals, hate crime like the game KZ Tycoon, ...), however it's up to the courts to decide if it is illegal if someone publishes this stuff.
So what does this mean for websites? You can still go to them if you type in the addresses, there's no DNS blocking or something else in place. Links to those websites however are considered as advertisement and thus not allowed for websites reachable by minors. This is the reason the list of URL's is separate from the other lists and is kept secret.
Also note, that websites doing a real age check (not just clicking yes I'm 18) shouldn't be on the list.
What they desperately try to prevent (since about forever) is that the index becomes a "shopping list" among minors.
The offline index was effective while being locked up in their office or other places where age controls can be ensured: publishers and stores mostly try to avoid the fines that they get for advertising index-material "to the youth" (ie. outside adult-only areas).
The online index needs to be installed to routers to be effective and thus have to leave the BPjM's control. That's why they veiled it, and why they're now so furious that the descrambled list is available on the net (and in the news, too).
The offline index was effective while being locked up in their office or other places where age controls can be ensured: publishers and stores mostly try to avoid the fines that they get for advertising index-material "to the youth" (ie. outside adult-only areas).
The online index needs to be installed to routers to be effective and thus have to leave the BPjM's control. That's why they veiled it, and why they're now so furious that the descrambled list is available on the net (and in the news, too).
To make it clear: these sites are not blocked, you can still acess them. They just don't turn up when you search 'sick forbidden sex with animals' on search engines.
How far does censorship go? Where does 'protecting our kids' start? Some of these sites contain stuff that is clearly illegal here in Germany. Is prohibiting something always 'censorship'? I'd say no, it is a matter of fine adjustment which has to be carefully established and controlled.
How far does censorship go? Where does 'protecting our kids' start? Some of these sites contain stuff that is clearly illegal here in Germany. Is prohibiting something always 'censorship'? I'd say no, it is a matter of fine adjustment which has to be carefully established and controlled.
> Where does 'protecting our kids' start?
It starts with parents, who's responsibility it is to supervise their children and educate them about how to use the Internet responsibly. If you're reliant on easily-circumvented blacklists to protect your kids, you're doing it wrong. Specifically, the responsibility (with regards to Internet content) does not rest with a government.
> Is prohibiting something always 'censorship'?
Yes (at least when the thing being prohibited is information). That's what censorship is.
One can validly argue about whether or not a particular instance of censorship is right or wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still censorship.
It starts with parents, who's responsibility it is to supervise their children and educate them about how to use the Internet responsibly. If you're reliant on easily-circumvented blacklists to protect your kids, you're doing it wrong. Specifically, the responsibility (with regards to Internet content) does not rest with a government.
> Is prohibiting something always 'censorship'?
Yes (at least when the thing being prohibited is information). That's what censorship is.
One can validly argue about whether or not a particular instance of censorship is right or wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still censorship.
Prohibiting or limiting access to information is always censorship. Censorship of third-party information by governments is universally wrong. If you want to protect your children from certain types of information via censorship, that's not necessarily wrong, but it's entirely your own responsibility.
There would be absolutely nothing wrong with this censorship list if maintained by a private entity and voluntarily applied by individuals to their own Internet connections.
There would be absolutely nothing wrong with this censorship list if maintained by a private entity and voluntarily applied by individuals to their own Internet connections.
You believe that censorship by governments is universally wrong, but that view is not universal. German laws have been oriented to allow censorship since the allied occupation of West Germany. It is perfectly legal by German law as it is practiced where there is no contradiction with civil or European law.
The German populace was generally supportive of this censorship in the post-war period to mend the ideological rifts that drove society apart in the early part of the cold war. While views are certainly changing in the "information age," if the German populace changes its views on censorship then it needs only to change its own laws.
The German populace was generally supportive of this censorship in the post-war period to mend the ideological rifts that drove society apart in the early part of the cold war. While views are certainly changing in the "information age," if the German populace changes its views on censorship then it needs only to change its own laws.
It is not as easy as it sounds. The law in question states (Article 5, German basic law):
(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing and pictures, and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.
(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honour.
---
In theory, it is quite easy to fix the problem: Remove (2) and you are done. In reality, no politician would ever try to do that. "You are against keeping children save?", "You are against honour?" and so on. Still, it would be for the best to remove it ... the government uses it to push every shit they want in regards with censorship - after all, basically everything can be restated to be "for the protection of young persons".
(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing and pictures, and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.
(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honour.
---
In theory, it is quite easy to fix the problem: Remove (2) and you are done. In reality, no politician would ever try to do that. "You are against keeping children save?", "You are against honour?" and so on. Still, it would be for the best to remove it ... the government uses it to push every shit they want in regards with censorship - after all, basically everything can be restated to be "for the protection of young persons".
There is inherent risk in any type of censorship. If it needs to be applied, it needs to be done carefully and in the open.
In this case, this is hardly a misunderstanding in values as you argue. Most of the URLs are not political and have very little to do with national socialism.
The maintained list of URLs is sloppy and apparently done with little, if any, public oversight. That raises quite a few red flags. The fact that the German government is trying to intimidate Neocities raises many more red flags.
In this case, this is hardly a misunderstanding in values as you argue. Most of the URLs are not political and have very little to do with national socialism.
The maintained list of URLs is sloppy and apparently done with little, if any, public oversight. That raises quite a few red flags. The fact that the German government is trying to intimidate Neocities raises many more red flags.
That's true, the whether censorship is morally wrong is open to discussion. However, it is also completely ineffective for practically any purpose, and has been abused in virtually all instances that it has been implemented.
I think both of these points show that it is an unnecessary and excessive restraint of individual and collective freedom.
I think both of these points show that it is an unnecessary and excessive restraint of individual and collective freedom.
The list is organized by a public institution, but the review teams (that actually put things on the list) are 75% non-government people. There's an appeals process, its use is opt-in.
See http://www.bundespruefstelle.de/bpjm/Service/english.html
Their over-reaction to the unveiled list stems from their (decades-old) fear that "the index" might become kind of a shopping list to minors.
See http://www.bundespruefstelle.de/bpjm/Service/english.html
Their over-reaction to the unveiled list stems from their (decades-old) fear that "the index" might become kind of a shopping list to minors.
What about limiting access to information to protect privacy, such as the data protection and privacy provisions of HIPAA?
You're missing the point a bit. Neocities isn't taking the position that the blocking is a bad thing. They are arguing that people should get to know what the government is blocking.
Today it's "sick forbidden sex with animals" but tomorrow it could be "your rights as a German" and if there's no transparency, the government can easily control the information that their people see. Which is a really big thing to control without any oversight or input.
Today it's "sick forbidden sex with animals" but tomorrow it could be "your rights as a German" and if there's no transparency, the government can easily control the information that their people see. Which is a really big thing to control without any oversight or input.
No, I don't think I am missing the point. My question was basically: is censorship always a bad idea? If yes, how can we enforce the law otherwise (forbidden pictures)? Or should we make our laws towards "showing everything is allowed"? Where does it start and where does it end?
Censorship is mostly not about showing, but about looking. Censorship prevents you from seeing the world as it is (which includes seeing what people actually say), which is quite different from taking down a site that is infringing upon other people's rights. If you are prevented from looking at the world, that's a bad basis for democracy.
Censorship without accountability is always wrong.
I have no problem with censorship when done with full accountability and audit trail - iow. with an invididual court order per item censored. That way the party who demands censorhip has to make their claim and convince a (supposedly impartial) judge that the case is truly exceptional. There has to be a legal and valid reason!
The audit trail from court documents would then allow to see when the request was made, and when the censorship of the said item took place. Most importantly, it would enable the people demanding censorship to be held accountable for their actions. Named, always. Shamed, if necessary.
A censorship list compiled and distributed in private is ripe for abuses. There are always parties who would use such a system to further their own agenda. (Insert selection bias here.)
I have no problem with censorship when done with full accountability and audit trail - iow. with an invididual court order per item censored. That way the party who demands censorhip has to make their claim and convince a (supposedly impartial) judge that the case is truly exceptional. There has to be a legal and valid reason!
The audit trail from court documents would then allow to see when the request was made, and when the censorship of the said item took place. Most importantly, it would enable the people demanding censorship to be held accountable for their actions. Named, always. Shamed, if necessary.
A censorship list compiled and distributed in private is ripe for abuses. There are always parties who would use such a system to further their own agenda. (Insert selection bias here.)
by "missing the point a bit" I meant "slightly off topic for the article". You had one of the initial replies to the article, and I was hoping to keep the discussion a bit more on the topic of the article, which is an interesting one.
To respond to your question: I default to trusting people. So in the grey area, I'm towards whatever side lets people decide their lives for themselves. But as to specifically where it starts and ends, that's not a specific call I'm informed enough to make. And I'm sure it differs from culture to culture. What's acceptable for my neighborhood is probably wrong for others. To me, that's where things get impossible to decide on one line for everyone. So I'd trust people to define their own community mores.
To respond to your question: I default to trusting people. So in the grey area, I'm towards whatever side lets people decide their lives for themselves. But as to specifically where it starts and ends, that's not a specific call I'm informed enough to make. And I'm sure it differs from culture to culture. What's acceptable for my neighborhood is probably wrong for others. To me, that's where things get impossible to decide on one line for everyone. So I'd trust people to define their own community mores.
I considered my initial post on topic :)
This is a very dificult and highly subjective topic. Free speech always ends where you start to hurt other people. So there is always 'censorship' in some way or another. The group of 'anti censorship' people (no censorship whatsoever) almost always neglect that point.
I think the only question is: how far should censorship go? Should we block sites? Should we block search engines (like in this case)? What material should be blocked? How can we make sure that the list of items that are censored does not 'overflow'?
This is a very dificult and highly subjective topic. Free speech always ends where you start to hurt other people. So there is always 'censorship' in some way or another. The group of 'anti censorship' people (no censorship whatsoever) almost always neglect that point.
I think the only question is: how far should censorship go? Should we block sites? Should we block search engines (like in this case)? What material should be blocked? How can we make sure that the list of items that are censored does not 'overflow'?
> how far should censorship go?
That's easy. There should be no government mandated censorship.
First of all - because it doesn't work for the intended purpose. The Internet is so dynamic that no method of censorship can stop information from being disseminated. Your own children are all "safe" and protected, until a friend teaches them how to get passed that filter to view porn or whatever and your children will want to view porn, especially given a lack of education from parents. It's also a pretty dumb filter and governments are failing even at censoring PirateBay or WikiLeaks. Without proper supervision and education, it will just happen. Censoring extreme political views, or any political views that go against the system doesn't work either. It never did. Actually censorship helps in disseminating extreme political views and the only thing that helps is proper education.
Second of all, there are no lines to be drawn - what represents useful information for some people, may hurt the feelings of other people. Nobody is in a position to decide what information should be censored. And if I want to jerk off on people having sex with horses, why should anybody have a problem with that. Being tolerant of people that are different from us in one way or another is a lesson that the German people should have learned, otherwise we are bound to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
That's easy. There should be no government mandated censorship.
First of all - because it doesn't work for the intended purpose. The Internet is so dynamic that no method of censorship can stop information from being disseminated. Your own children are all "safe" and protected, until a friend teaches them how to get passed that filter to view porn or whatever and your children will want to view porn, especially given a lack of education from parents. It's also a pretty dumb filter and governments are failing even at censoring PirateBay or WikiLeaks. Without proper supervision and education, it will just happen. Censoring extreme political views, or any political views that go against the system doesn't work either. It never did. Actually censorship helps in disseminating extreme political views and the only thing that helps is proper education.
Second of all, there are no lines to be drawn - what represents useful information for some people, may hurt the feelings of other people. Nobody is in a position to decide what information should be censored. And if I want to jerk off on people having sex with horses, why should anybody have a problem with that. Being tolerant of people that are different from us in one way or another is a lesson that the German people should have learned, otherwise we are bound to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
Speech can never hurt people, only actions can. (Unless we include "emotionally hurt", but given that even speech such as "I don't love you" can emotionally hurt and even scar people, I find it unreasonable to censor speech that has the potential of hurting people emotionally).
Every single law limiting access to information ends up being abused to create censorship in favor of somebody's selfish interest, political or otherwise. Privacy laws? Abused. Libel laws? Abused. Copyright? Abused all the god damn time.
When it comes to knowledge, taboos and restrictions are an archaic pre-rational way of dealing with dangerous ideas and should be put to rest right about now. There's simply no place for this kind of stuff in the modern society.
When it comes to knowledge, taboos and restrictions are an archaic pre-rational way of dealing with dangerous ideas and should be put to rest right about now. There's simply no place for this kind of stuff in the modern society.
I agree with the sibling comment: The parents need to take care of their kids, not the state.
Putting that aside: Why the hell would you block content that already is illegal anyway? The same discussion came up with Ursula's braindead child born blocklist. It serves no purpose. It is dumb. And .. entirely arbitrary on top (who maintains the list? How do you add or remove things from that list?)
Defending this thing is hard, invoking "think of the children" is probably the only option here. But.. seriously?
Putting that aside: Why the hell would you block content that already is illegal anyway? The same discussion came up with Ursula's braindead child born blocklist. It serves no purpose. It is dumb. And .. entirely arbitrary on top (who maintains the list? How do you add or remove things from that list?)
Defending this thing is hard, invoking "think of the children" is probably the only option here. But.. seriously?
I don't see why we can't just call it "censorship" no matter what the reason.
If it makes you uncomfortable to call it "censorship" when blocking Nazi propaganda or whatever, well, good. Discomfort is a sign that you're thinking.
If it makes you uncomfortable to call it "censorship" when blocking Nazi propaganda or whatever, well, good. Discomfort is a sign that you're thinking.
I am fine with the term 'censorship', but we should discuss: where does it start, where does it end? What kind of censorship is allowed, and what is not allowed?
That kind of discussion could benefit from some facts to discuss. For example, the list of sites being blocked. Unfortunately, the German government is trying to keep them secret, which hinders the discussion. Nicht wahr?
The ridiculous part is the secrecy. The US censors nipples on TV but at least that is not a secret and I will not be prosecuted for saying so
http://www.bundespruefstelle.de/bpjm/Service/english.html is not very secret.
The list is also opt-in, so the US equivalent would be an option on your TV to have it blur nipples or drown out certain four letter words.
The list is also opt-in, so the US equivalent would be an option on your TV to have it blur nipples or drown out certain four letter words.
by whos criteria?
We can take the law as a starting point.
Who watches the watchmen? Many laws are unjust, unfair and oppressive.
Please quote some of the 'many' unjust, unfair and oppresive laws.
La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues et de voler du pain.
If you go through the list, 99% of them are porn sites.
However there are some glaring exceptions I saw:
DailyMotion, a popular YouTube competitor with more lax content rules.
main.htm - Not sure what this accomplishes!
Ogrish - A shock site dedicated to gore and other types of extreme content.
A relative link to a page which appears to be on a torrent site where you can download an Xbox game.
And quite a few neo-Nazi or nazi sympathasizing sites (e.g. http://ihr.org). Germany has banned all literature and symbols promoting national socialism, but the sites in this list are certainly not exhaustive.
However there are some glaring exceptions I saw:
DailyMotion, a popular YouTube competitor with more lax content rules.
main.htm - Not sure what this accomplishes!
Ogrish - A shock site dedicated to gore and other types of extreme content.
A relative link to a page which appears to be on a torrent site where you can download an Xbox game.
And quite a few neo-Nazi or nazi sympathasizing sites (e.g. http://ihr.org). Germany has banned all literature and symbols promoting national socialism, but the sites in this list are certainly not exhaustive.
Secret censorship list, just like one whe got in Finland.
But that's a DNS blocker I assume, which is used in many countries. ISPs use them "voluntarily"...
It just goes to show: You can cargo cult ban anything with a swastika on it, but if you can't change the culture, the Naziism remains in the hearts of your government officials.
And remember that it was the refusal of major Weimar parties to allow any discussion of aggressive reform and relief measures that lead to the rise of German Nazi and Communist parties in the 1930s. It's all self-inflicted wounds from the fundamentally illiberal ruling intellectual and bureaucratic class of the country.
And when the next downturn with a murderous evil dictatorship moves in, which country is ready to prevent you from even discussing it? That country is just asking for it to happen again.
And remember that it was the refusal of major Weimar parties to allow any discussion of aggressive reform and relief measures that lead to the rise of German Nazi and Communist parties in the 1930s. It's all self-inflicted wounds from the fundamentally illiberal ruling intellectual and bureaucratic class of the country.
And when the next downturn with a murderous evil dictatorship moves in, which country is ready to prevent you from even discussing it? That country is just asking for it to happen again.
Is hardly out of context with the article being commented on.
"You don't get rid of history by blacklisting people from viewing it, you don't convince people that Nazis are bad by, literally, stooping to their level and censoring (okay, I went there). And, as this leak clearly proves, it doesn't work anyways."
"You don't get rid of history by blacklisting people from viewing it, you don't convince people that Nazis are bad by, literally, stooping to their level and censoring (okay, I went there). And, as this leak clearly proves, it doesn't work anyways."
Please show me how this first post makes any point in the discussion.
It is a follow up to a position taken in the article.
It is slightly heavy handed maybe, but the idea that a society through fear of its own past may create the tools that allows for a repeat of the very thing it is trying to avoid, is clearly a reasonable concern.
The fact that we happen to be discussing Germany, doesn't suddenly stop you from being allowed to make historical comparisons.
It is slightly heavy handed maybe, but the idea that a society through fear of its own past may create the tools that allows for a repeat of the very thing it is trying to avoid, is clearly a reasonable concern.
The fact that we happen to be discussing Germany, doesn't suddenly stop you from being allowed to make historical comparisons.
You know, as much as I hate seeing discussions diverging into unrelated issues involving Nazis, Jews, religion, or other such topics, I hate the invocation of a stupid Internet meme even more.
Yes, we should always remember what happened, because it represents an anti-pattern for what society should be like and oh look - censorship as been used by the communists and the nazis for "protecting the youth" and the German law supporting this was born after the war, therefore guess what - an argument involving the nazis, even if flawed, is on-topic and people shouldn't fear expressing their opinions because of some stupid Internet meme.
Yes, we should always remember what happened, because it represents an anti-pattern for what society should be like and oh look - censorship as been used by the communists and the nazis for "protecting the youth" and the German law supporting this was born after the war, therefore guess what - an argument involving the nazis, even if flawed, is on-topic and people shouldn't fear expressing their opinions because of some stupid Internet meme.
Is there any legal basis to this?
If I publish a list in pig-latin, can I deem it illegal to translate that into English?
If I publish something in 8-bit ASCII, can I deem it illegal to "translate" that into English?
How far does it go?