French railway operator orders hundreds of new trains that are too big(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
French railway operator orders hundreds of new trains that are too big
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/21/french-railway-operator-sncf-orders-trains-too-big
39 comments
The article makes it sound horrible, but I wonder how bad it really is.
For instance, they've "only" spent $50m so far compensating. That's only 0.33% of the total $15bn budget for the trains.
Even if they end up spending a whole $1bn widening platforms - that's "only" a 6.66% cost blowout.
In the context of infrastructure projects, a <10% budget blowout doesn't sound so bad :P
For instance, they've "only" spent $50m so far compensating. That's only 0.33% of the total $15bn budget for the trains.
Even if they end up spending a whole $1bn widening platforms - that's "only" a 6.66% cost blowout.
In the context of infrastructure projects, a <10% budget blowout doesn't sound so bad :P
And it's actually to improve old train stations so not that bad if we can get larger train.
Compared to the clusterfuck of extending the San Francisco subway system, it sounds like a bargain. By contrast, I've grown to love the subway system in LA to the point that I look forward to visiting so I can ride it.
Holy crap, someone who loves LA public transport? Admittedly SF's is...odd, but I'd say it's much better than LA's.
They're both got nothing on NY or Chicago though, obviously.
Edit: This is from a tourist perspective to all four cities, so I only have a little experience with each of them.
They're both got nothing on NY or Chicago though, obviously.
Edit: This is from a tourist perspective to all four cities, so I only have a little experience with each of them.
Yes it makes it sound horrible. 0.33% is nothing when speaking of over expenses.
Plus, getting larger train was planned as French Government passed a law for accessibility for the disabled to be applied before 2015 : the distance between the border of the station and the train must not be more than 1cm (horizontally and vertically).
(French source : https://www.facebook.com/cedricingrand/posts/101524737376878...)
Plus, getting larger train was planned as French Government passed a law for accessibility for the disabled to be applied before 2015 : the distance between the border of the station and the train must not be more than 1cm (horizontally and vertically).
(French source : https://www.facebook.com/cedricingrand/posts/101524737376878...)
> The article makes it sound horrible
Yes, it feels like "look we found something to say about the French abd how they are bad a planning!"
I have the same impression when reading my home country's newspapers about UK or USA, it's like a jealous girl saying about the pretty one: "Look, she has a red spot today!".
And this means UK is jealous about France, which is nice the know...
Yes, it feels like "look we found something to say about the French abd how they are bad a planning!"
I have the same impression when reading my home country's newspapers about UK or USA, it's like a jealous girl saying about the pretty one: "Look, she has a red spot today!".
And this means UK is jealous about France, which is nice the know...
Almost but not quite. If it happened in the UK it'd be all over the UK news as evidence of how broken Britain's train system is, as cstross pointed out on Twitter earlier. It's mostly surprising because we're used to the French actually being competent at running train systems unlike us.
I read some speculation on a reddit thread that this was no accident but a backhanded way of forcing modernization: Enough money and effort goes into supporting old trains and train stations in terms of switching trains, personnel, repairs, little bridges to fit smaller trains into wide stations etc that the difference between that and going ahead with the modernization wouldn't be that big.
But if there were political objections to such a renovation project from some unknown group, this would be a good way to force their hand.
But if there were political objections to such a renovation project from some unknown group, this would be a good way to force their hand.
Construction work has begun on widening hundreds of platforms.
I hope he means narrowing them, otherwise the problem is just going to get worse :)
I hope he means narrowing them, otherwise the problem is just going to get worse :)
The trains are too wide or the platforms are too narrow. One of those problems needs to be addressed.
I guess in rail terminology the platform includes the track section, but I always think of it as the part you stand on while you're waiting for the train since that is the part that is raised above track level - so wider track areas would necessitate narrower platforms. The definition of platform is a raised surface, after all.
Url changed from http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27502184.
Poor journalism across the board! None of the articles mentions any specifics. How much wider?!
In any case it is rather insignificant, on the order of the decimeter!
So I wonder if they will re-do the stations or re-do the trains. It seems the older stations which are too narrow would probably benefit from an upgrade, but I could imagine they might not have the space to make them any wider than they are now.
It's literally a four line article, and one of them is "Construction work has begun on widening hundreds of platforms."
They're going to first spend €400m upgrading their train station platforms by widening the space for train tracks, and then later we'll find out on Hacker News: "200 Upgraded French Train Platforms 'too thin for pedestrian traffic'".
Right, the french pedestrian network will have failed to communicate the correct specifications to the platform operators.
Most subway stations I have frequented can certainly afford losing 10 or 20 centimeters of platform space so I wouldn't be too concerned.
[deleted]
Well fuck me runnin
Ah, the SNCF... they are professionals in wasting public money and slackers in everything. I can't remember the number of times my train was delayed, cancelled, or stopped in the middle of the countryside for no reason. And when shit happens, there's one thing you can expect from them: zero communication and zero responsibilities.
I was staying in Paris, France for a few months with a local friend a while back... she worked for SNCF.
Apparently suicide is a huge problem in France, and most of the time when a train is delayed or you are stopped in the middle of the tracks it's because they're quickly picking up body parts.
That's also the reason for the lack of communication on behalf of the train operators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_France
Apparently suicide is a huge problem in France, and most of the time when a train is delayed or you are stopped in the middle of the tracks it's because they're quickly picking up body parts.
That's also the reason for the lack of communication on behalf of the train operators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_France
Here in Japan, the most common delay reason I see on the signs is "passenger injury". I think we all understand that they don't mean it's a grandma who fell over and hurt her leg...
I am sorry to hear that that is a common train delay reason experienced in Japan. I have never been.
Apparently Japan has an abnormally high suicide rate too. It ranks 10th in the world according to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra... while france is 26th.
I would call a single suicide an abnormally high rate but I digress...
Apparently Japan has an abnormally high suicide rate too. It ranks 10th in the world according to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra... while france is 26th.
I would call a single suicide an abnormally high rate but I digress...
Munich has a similar problem with the S-Trains only having one track to run through the system.
In Berlin, "Notfalleinsatz im Gleis" (Emergency rescue in the trainbed) is also quite often. Deutsche Bahn uses "Unfall mit Personenschaden" (Accident with people involved).
Usually, information and coverage about this is scarce for a reason, to avoid copycat suicides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide).
In Berlin, "Notfalleinsatz im Gleis" (Emergency rescue in the trainbed) is also quite often. Deutsche Bahn uses "Unfall mit Personenschaden" (Accident with people involved).
Usually, information and coverage about this is scarce for a reason, to avoid copycat suicides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide).
You'd still expect that they'd have some kind of open-ended vague parlance for suicide-by-train.
In NYC subways, a conductor will at least mention on the intercom that delays are being experienced due to "train traffic", "signaling problems", "mechanical difficulties", "medical emergencies" or "police activity." A suicide could easily be categorized as a medical emergency, hence the ambulances.
In NYC subways, a conductor will at least mention on the intercom that delays are being experienced due to "train traffic", "signaling problems", "mechanical difficulties", "medical emergencies" or "police activity." A suicide could easily be categorized as a medical emergency, hence the ambulances.
They did. She told me it was referred to as [sic]:
"Nous avons eu un grave accident."
Which translates to:
"We have had a (very) bad accident."
I was becoming frustrated at the frequent subway/train delays (while every other local Parisienne just sat tight, chalking it up to an every day event) and she quietly whispered to me on the the train that [sic] "Whenever they say there has been a 'grave accident', somebody probably hurled themselves onto the tracks, and this happens much more frequently around christmast/family holidays for obvious reasons."
Suicide is a terrible thing that literally affects the entire world.
I recently had to deal with my best friend losing his (incredibly successfull) father to suicide. Being an up-and-coming startup-loving entrepreneur... I could have only hoped to reach his level of excellence in the business community. But he just kept to himself and blew his brains out in the family bathroom the other day for god knows what reason... what a shame.
"Nous avons eu un grave accident."
Which translates to:
"We have had a (very) bad accident."
I was becoming frustrated at the frequent subway/train delays (while every other local Parisienne just sat tight, chalking it up to an every day event) and she quietly whispered to me on the the train that [sic] "Whenever they say there has been a 'grave accident', somebody probably hurled themselves onto the tracks, and this happens much more frequently around christmast/family holidays for obvious reasons."
Suicide is a terrible thing that literally affects the entire world.
I recently had to deal with my best friend losing his (incredibly successfull) father to suicide. Being an up-and-coming startup-loving entrepreneur... I could have only hoped to reach his level of excellence in the business community. But he just kept to himself and blew his brains out in the family bathroom the other day for god knows what reason... what a shame.
I think the term of art is "accident de personne." I certainly heard it a few times myself.
The SNCF can be blamed for a lot of things, including subpar service quality, but I don't think they ever tried hiding the nature of those accidents.
The SNCF can be blamed for a lot of things, including subpar service quality, but I don't think they ever tried hiding the nature of those accidents.
They don't hide them. Apparently every parisienne is aware of the fact that their subways are suicide targets and they just gracefully ignore them.
I was astounded when I learnt about them initially to say the least.
I was astounded when I learnt about them initially to say the least.
Let me call BS on that. Japan has way more suicides on its railways (because it has both more trains and more suicides in the first place than France) and the Japan Rail company always communicate on the reasons of their delays, EVEN when it's about a suicide. And delays are never in number of hours for these kind of cases, but rather about 20 to 40 mins max.
Another example from the SCNF, from my own experience. One the TGV (bullet train) stopped nowhere and we waited more than 2 hours wondering what was happening. There was no communication. Only when we arrived at the destination we were told the train hit a wild boar or something like that and that was the reason for us stopping. Seriously, why keeping everyone in the dark ? Complete lack of process and customer service. That's what the SNCF is.
It's very telling how they refer to their clients as being "usagers" (users, but in the worst possible choice of word in French) instead of referring to them as customers.
Another example from the SCNF, from my own experience. One the TGV (bullet train) stopped nowhere and we waited more than 2 hours wondering what was happening. There was no communication. Only when we arrived at the destination we were told the train hit a wild boar or something like that and that was the reason for us stopping. Seriously, why keeping everyone in the dark ? Complete lack of process and customer service. That's what the SNCF is.
It's very telling how they refer to their clients as being "usagers" (users, but in the worst possible choice of word in French) instead of referring to them as customers.
Fact is that usagers are not customers: SNCF travels are paid by the taxpayer!
And that's precisely why it does not work well.
I'm not sure that this is 'most of the time' some parts of our railways are also very old so they have technical failures..
In the subway, they're (slowly) replacing access gates so that you cannot access to the tracks which would reduce a lot this kind of suicide, but 1) it's very expensive 2) unions are against it, because at the same time they make trains remotely controlled..
In the subway, they're (slowly) replacing access gates so that you cannot access to the tracks which would reduce a lot this kind of suicide, but 1) it's very expensive 2) unions are against it, because at the same time they make trains remotely controlled..
The party responsible for the blunder is actually the RFF, the railway system provider, which provided the SNCF with false data.
http://www.france24.com/en/20140521-french-trains-wide-old-s...
http://www.france24.com/en/20140521-french-trains-wide-old-s...
http://www.france24.com/en/20140521-french-trains-wide-old-s...
a) This only applies to very old platforms, build by standards over 50 years ago. b) If the trains were ordered by the older standards, i can imagine an issue that newer platforms would need to be widened (modern trains try to provide gapless entry).
So, all in all, the problem was found late (unfortunate), but the real problem is: platforms following different standards which should probably be unified anyways.