Ask HN: Flunking out of college, how to proceed?
20 comments
No matter where you end up working, some of the things you are going to be expected to do will be things that you aren't interested in doing. So far, your performance in college hasn't proven that you are capable of holding down a job. Right or wrong, from the perspective of an employer, the situation you described above would make me worry that you might have an aversion to hard work.
I'm not saying that you should stay in school, even though it would be a good idea, but maybe instead you should build a few personal projects from start to finish. That will allow you to demonstrate to employers that you are capable of working through the hard/boring parts of software development and pushing through to the end.
Also, you need to get your sleeping disorder under control. Being tired all the time kills your ability to concentrate and execute. See a doctor if you have to. If you don't take care of yourself now, you'll regret it when you are older.
I'm not saying that you should stay in school, even though it would be a good idea, but maybe instead you should build a few personal projects from start to finish. That will allow you to demonstrate to employers that you are capable of working through the hard/boring parts of software development and pushing through to the end.
Also, you need to get your sleeping disorder under control. Being tired all the time kills your ability to concentrate and execute. See a doctor if you have to. If you don't take care of yourself now, you'll regret it when you are older.
I was in exactly this situation back in 1996. I moved back in with my parents and enrolled in a couple classes at the local community college. I guess the assumption was that I'd get back on track and transfer back to a 4-year program, but that never happened (academia really wasn't for me). At the same time a friend connected me with an internship doing what amounted to desktop PC support, though it developed into more than that over time.
It turned out I was much better suited to (and motivated by) real world work. (I already had a reasonable amount of software development experience prior to college.) I quickly proved my usefulness, was able to take on more responsibility, and learned a ton about networking hardware over the next year or so. I should point out that during this internship, I was working a lot. I was really into what I was doing, really enjoyed everything I was learning, and seeking lots of feedback from everyone around me.
Since dot-coms were all the rage at the time, there were tons of places hiring anyone who knew anything about the internet (today, it would be mobile or web development perhaps). After a year or so, when I started interviewing, it was apparent I had the relevant experience and no one cared that I hadn't finished college.
I got lucky with the internship, I got lucky with timing (dot-com boom), and I got lucky that I really enjoyed doing something that happened to be highly marketable. But I also was really motivated and worked hard. I hated school because it felt so pointless. But entering the real world, I felt super-motivated because I felt I was doing something productive that wasn't just a contrived assignment to be graded and discarded. If this sounds like you, maybe you'll follow a similar path. On the other hand, if your poor performance in school is a reflection of general lack of motivation that would carry over to work, you've got a tougher problem to solve. My guess is that based on your previous internships, you already know the answer.
It turned out I was much better suited to (and motivated by) real world work. (I already had a reasonable amount of software development experience prior to college.) I quickly proved my usefulness, was able to take on more responsibility, and learned a ton about networking hardware over the next year or so. I should point out that during this internship, I was working a lot. I was really into what I was doing, really enjoyed everything I was learning, and seeking lots of feedback from everyone around me.
Since dot-coms were all the rage at the time, there were tons of places hiring anyone who knew anything about the internet (today, it would be mobile or web development perhaps). After a year or so, when I started interviewing, it was apparent I had the relevant experience and no one cared that I hadn't finished college.
I got lucky with the internship, I got lucky with timing (dot-com boom), and I got lucky that I really enjoyed doing something that happened to be highly marketable. But I also was really motivated and worked hard. I hated school because it felt so pointless. But entering the real world, I felt super-motivated because I felt I was doing something productive that wasn't just a contrived assignment to be graded and discarded. If this sounds like you, maybe you'll follow a similar path. On the other hand, if your poor performance in school is a reflection of general lack of motivation that would carry over to work, you've got a tougher problem to solve. My guess is that based on your previous internships, you already know the answer.
Thanks everyone who answered. There are a lot of questions but most can be distilled down to how lazy I was.
I was lazy this semester, I thought I had a good handle on the material until this week when I failed all my midterms. I hardly sleep anymore which also plays a roll. I for sure could have been more active in pursuing help but to be honest I had no idea I needed it
I go out a decent amount, usually once a week, sometimes twice. It's not the "weeeeew college" level of partying from freshmen year, I would say it has little to no impact anymore on my grades.
One last relevant fact, it took me 3 tries to pass calculus, in highschool I was passed in precalc because the teacher knew I was involved in a lot of work after a botched computer donation program to our neighboring schools. This year I had to self-teach myself a lot which was tough, and the few times I did see my professor or TA they would only explain the material covered in class. To quote "I'm not here to teach you algebra/calculus". That is totally reasonable but having to have a logarithm cheat sheet with you at review sessions kinda sucks, not to mention I got shot down enough times early on where I would second guess asking questions for fear of them being too elementary.
I'm aware I fucked this up, but I really do love to code. It's the only thing i'm (ironically) not burned out on.
I was lazy this semester, I thought I had a good handle on the material until this week when I failed all my midterms. I hardly sleep anymore which also plays a roll. I for sure could have been more active in pursuing help but to be honest I had no idea I needed it
I go out a decent amount, usually once a week, sometimes twice. It's not the "weeeeew college" level of partying from freshmen year, I would say it has little to no impact anymore on my grades.
One last relevant fact, it took me 3 tries to pass calculus, in highschool I was passed in precalc because the teacher knew I was involved in a lot of work after a botched computer donation program to our neighboring schools. This year I had to self-teach myself a lot which was tough, and the few times I did see my professor or TA they would only explain the material covered in class. To quote "I'm not here to teach you algebra/calculus". That is totally reasonable but having to have a logarithm cheat sheet with you at review sessions kinda sucks, not to mention I got shot down enough times early on where I would second guess asking questions for fear of them being too elementary.
I'm aware I fucked this up, but I really do love to code. It's the only thing i'm (ironically) not burned out on.
You're asking for advice, but you aren't asking the right questions.
Why are you flunking out? You've told us about all these things happening to you, but that doesn't tell us why.
Are you genuinely bad at CS and math? Is that stressing you out so much that you don't feel you have the time to focus on your other courses? Would you be better off with a part time schedule until you get your legs under you?
How much of your time is allocated towards study / school work, and how much of it towards extracurriculars (social time, games, pet projects, browsing the web, getting hammered) on a weekly basis?
Do you really like developing software? No, I don't mean whether you'd really like a job developing software and the perks it brings with it, I mean do you really LIKE developing software? Because if you don't, and you don't have a degree, you're probably going to have a bad time.
Why do you think you make a good hire? While some classes can be boring, so are projects in the real world. The job market isn't interested in charity cases, nor is it interested in people who can't stay interested on mundane details (because there are ALWAYS mundane details).
You can't know the path to success if you don't know why you're failing and how to fix it.
Why are you flunking out? You've told us about all these things happening to you, but that doesn't tell us why.
Are you genuinely bad at CS and math? Is that stressing you out so much that you don't feel you have the time to focus on your other courses? Would you be better off with a part time schedule until you get your legs under you?
How much of your time is allocated towards study / school work, and how much of it towards extracurriculars (social time, games, pet projects, browsing the web, getting hammered) on a weekly basis?
Do you really like developing software? No, I don't mean whether you'd really like a job developing software and the perks it brings with it, I mean do you really LIKE developing software? Because if you don't, and you don't have a degree, you're probably going to have a bad time.
Why do you think you make a good hire? While some classes can be boring, so are projects in the real world. The job market isn't interested in charity cases, nor is it interested in people who can't stay interested on mundane details (because there are ALWAYS mundane details).
You can't know the path to success if you don't know why you're failing and how to fix it.
First off if programming is what you want to do as career, you got 3 options:
1) Same school try harder, but at a reduced work load that still keeps you full-time.
2) Different school with better teachers (This include curriculum) and take a reduced work load.
- If you find you having spare time while getting good grades in those courses, build a portfolio of projects.
3) If your done with school as a option, than start building a portfolio as it will need to show future employers what you are capable of doing. Now finding a job without a degree will be very difficult, you'll probably have to do a lot of volunteer work that could turn to full time work if you show initiative.
Now with this being said I've been kicked out of a top 100 university world wide and after that way up call I got my degree at another university specializing in teaching. What I found from that experience was I enjoyed programming but not how it was being delivered to me at that university.
Oh the sooner you inform of your parents with a plan and a update of your current situation, the better chances you will feel relieved. Though this is dependent on your relation with you parents.
ps - Make a list list of things to do and sort them on scale of difficulty. Eliminate them to help you get back on a career path and bring some order to your situation.
1) Same school try harder, but at a reduced work load that still keeps you full-time.
2) Different school with better teachers (This include curriculum) and take a reduced work load.
- If you find you having spare time while getting good grades in those courses, build a portfolio of projects.
3) If your done with school as a option, than start building a portfolio as it will need to show future employers what you are capable of doing. Now finding a job without a degree will be very difficult, you'll probably have to do a lot of volunteer work that could turn to full time work if you show initiative.
Now with this being said I've been kicked out of a top 100 university world wide and after that way up call I got my degree at another university specializing in teaching. What I found from that experience was I enjoyed programming but not how it was being delivered to me at that university.
Oh the sooner you inform of your parents with a plan and a update of your current situation, the better chances you will feel relieved. Though this is dependent on your relation with you parents.
ps - Make a list list of things to do and sort them on scale of difficulty. Eliminate them to help you get back on a career path and bring some order to your situation.
Well.. I just stopped showing up. That was a bad idea. Don't do that. It's probably too late but see if you can drop as many classes as you can before failing them or try to take them for no credit. Then take a break.
Honestly I feel like it took me ten years to recover from "dropping out." in the manner I did. Go look at the "Things I used to do." section of my profile. That's what it took me to get back to really programming and ultimately starting a business but It took a long time and a lot of work. That's about ten years worth of jobs there. Maybe I'm better for it but maybe not. College is not for everyone but looking back I wish I had 1) sought more help while I was there 2) Focused just a bit harder. 3) realized it's a game to play - there are many of them in life. Good luck!
Honestly I feel like it took me ten years to recover from "dropping out." in the manner I did. Go look at the "Things I used to do." section of my profile. That's what it took me to get back to really programming and ultimately starting a business but It took a long time and a lot of work. That's about ten years worth of jobs there. Maybe I'm better for it but maybe not. College is not for everyone but looking back I wish I had 1) sought more help while I was there 2) Focused just a bit harder. 3) realized it's a game to play - there are many of them in life. Good luck!
First, I went through that story myself. You're going to be fine, in all likelihood. I've actually done this twice now—the first time because of grades; the second time, my grades were fine (close to perfect, actually) and I was just taking a break for a semester that stretched out years, and I realized at some point that I'd have been kind of nuts to go back.
You should be aware of the challenges you're going to face though. Not because of your grades or schooling, most likely (though that will close a few doors) but because you're still fairly inexperienced, and it can be hard to land those first few gigs. Develop at least one or two deep skills. That will get your foot in the door a little easier. Blog a lot. And the last, best piece of advice I have, that I wish I'd learned ten years earlier—build your community network and find a mentor. Those relationships are the most critical assets you can have early on, IMHO.
There's a hundred ways to success, and those are just the things I've learned so far—about me. There's sure to be a lot of other good thoughts about your situation that are worth paying attention to, and you'll still likely find your own. Best of luck to you.
You should be aware of the challenges you're going to face though. Not because of your grades or schooling, most likely (though that will close a few doors) but because you're still fairly inexperienced, and it can be hard to land those first few gigs. Develop at least one or two deep skills. That will get your foot in the door a little easier. Blog a lot. And the last, best piece of advice I have, that I wish I'd learned ten years earlier—build your community network and find a mentor. Those relationships are the most critical assets you can have early on, IMHO.
There's a hundred ways to success, and those are just the things I've learned so far—about me. There's sure to be a lot of other good thoughts about your situation that are worth paying attention to, and you'll still likely find your own. Best of luck to you.
> I have no willpower to do anything in any of my non-major courses.
If you're not motivated enough to buy textbooks and work through them on your own I'd suggest looking around for a trade school that will allow you to specialize in programming. Your coursework will be pure programming.
> I want to just work on something for someone.
As a sophomore it is unlikely that you have the necessary skills to do much of anything for anyone, software-wise. Why not start a few projects of your own and learn as you go?
> Living at home is the last option I want to explore.
It's probably your best option, in my opinion. With your lack of coding skills its very unlikely that you'll be able to find a programming job, leaving low-paid, low-skilled jobs as your only other option. Working a 9-to-5 is tiring and it will be very hard to find the motivation to come home from work, study, and code. Why not live with the parents for a few years while you teach yourself how to program? Free room and board is a pretty sweet deal.
> Is there some sort of person I can talk to about how to go about getting a job
There are always mid-clients/recruiters and monster.com, dice.com, etc. With the little amount of programming skills that you have, no real resume, and no portfolio it will be difficult.
If you're not motivated enough to buy textbooks and work through them on your own I'd suggest looking around for a trade school that will allow you to specialize in programming. Your coursework will be pure programming.
> I want to just work on something for someone.
As a sophomore it is unlikely that you have the necessary skills to do much of anything for anyone, software-wise. Why not start a few projects of your own and learn as you go?
> Living at home is the last option I want to explore.
It's probably your best option, in my opinion. With your lack of coding skills its very unlikely that you'll be able to find a programming job, leaving low-paid, low-skilled jobs as your only other option. Working a 9-to-5 is tiring and it will be very hard to find the motivation to come home from work, study, and code. Why not live with the parents for a few years while you teach yourself how to program? Free room and board is a pretty sweet deal.
> Is there some sort of person I can talk to about how to go about getting a job
There are always mid-clients/recruiters and monster.com, dice.com, etc. With the little amount of programming skills that you have, no real resume, and no portfolio it will be difficult.
IMO as long as you make an effort to seek help from your professors in all of the classes you're having problems in, that is to say you actually go when they have their scheduled office hours so that they can figure out how to get you to understand what they are teaching; after all it is their job to be able to explain the material. Then at the very minimum you should pass the classes and eventually have what all deep thinkers all over the world have, a diploma.
If it's at all possible for you to get through college without going into debt with student loans then stick it out. And make the professors do their job by transmitting their knowledge in such a way that you understand it, and again the best way is to see them during their office hours. This way if you come up a little short on the exams they'll remember you and give a passing score (that's where pass/no pass can help out a lot if it's offered) Seriously I used that strategy myself in a couple of classes that I needed to pass and it worked.
If it's at all possible for you to get through college without going into debt with student loans then stick it out. And make the professors do their job by transmitting their knowledge in such a way that you understand it, and again the best way is to see them during their office hours. This way if you come up a little short on the exams they'll remember you and give a passing score (that's where pass/no pass can help out a lot if it's offered) Seriously I used that strategy myself in a couple of classes that I needed to pass and it worked.
When you say "require a degree to even apply", what do you mean? How do you know? Is this one of those cases where it just says, "BA in CS or equivalent experience" as one of the line-items? If so, ignore that. Submit a résumé.
I dropped out of college my first year. I'm not going to say it works for everyone (or even most people) -- I had a LOT of experience before college -- but it's possible it may work for you. Though, what I will say is the same thing someone will recommend down the road when you're looking for a new job: don't quit before you've secured your next position.
Consider looking toward startups where degrees tend to be less important -- corporate cultures tend to lean on degrees too much as a means for filtering candidates, and it's probably not the type of place you want to be anyhow.
I dropped out of college my first year. I'm not going to say it works for everyone (or even most people) -- I had a LOT of experience before college -- but it's possible it may work for you. Though, what I will say is the same thing someone will recommend down the road when you're looking for a new job: don't quit before you've secured your next position.
Consider looking toward startups where degrees tend to be less important -- corporate cultures tend to lean on degrees too much as a means for filtering candidates, and it's probably not the type of place you want to be anyhow.
> I have no willpower to do anything in any of my non-major courses.
How did you manage in high school? Is there a lack of motivation? Are you distracted?
> I love computer science, but it is a struggle for me. Virtually all of my time is spent in my CS and Math courses, and I am failing them too.
Have you asked professors or TAs for help? Have you tried getting a tutor? I'm pretty sure your college has more than enough resources to help.
> nothing terrible is going to happen as a result of me failing college.
You can't know for sure, so I suggest not convincing yourself that this is the truth. It probably isn't.
Quitting school is not uncommon, but it's not the same as flunking out. Who would hire someone who couldn't manage to get through a few CS classes in college?
How did you manage in high school? Is there a lack of motivation? Are you distracted?
> I love computer science, but it is a struggle for me. Virtually all of my time is spent in my CS and Math courses, and I am failing them too.
Have you asked professors or TAs for help? Have you tried getting a tutor? I'm pretty sure your college has more than enough resources to help.
> nothing terrible is going to happen as a result of me failing college.
You can't know for sure, so I suggest not convincing yourself that this is the truth. It probably isn't.
Quitting school is not uncommon, but it's not the same as flunking out. Who would hire someone who couldn't manage to get through a few CS classes in college?
Take a serious look at the US Military. Lots of smart guys have leveraged that experience to build highly successful careers. In exchange for serving your country, you'll get first-rate training, solid experience, & a chance to see some of the world.
A few questions in the way of exploration rather than accusations, feel free to answer or not answer however you're comfortable.
Could you elaborate on what led to these circumstances? Did you find the courseload too difficult? What percentage of your attention did you devote to your coursework? What was your background with the subjects before you went to college?
More general questions: What is your social situation like i.e. do you have friends you can talk to? Are you living by yourself or with roommates? Are there any academic advisers you can reach out to? Are there any mental health services at your college you would feel comfortable reaching out to for help?
Could you elaborate on what led to these circumstances? Did you find the courseload too difficult? What percentage of your attention did you devote to your coursework? What was your background with the subjects before you went to college?
More general questions: What is your social situation like i.e. do you have friends you can talk to? Are you living by yourself or with roommates? Are there any academic advisers you can reach out to? Are there any mental health services at your college you would feel comfortable reaching out to for help?
I mean... no hate but this doesn't sound like a case of college is useless. If you tried your hardest and failed out, then maybe engineering isn't for you. I understand the engineering curriculum is much harder, but the fact of the matter is, to be a decent engineer you should be able to pass. It'd be a different story if you were failing because you were disinterested and had much better things to do with your time, but if you were failing because you can't get data structures or discrete mathematics then maybe it's time to change fields.
I know going home sucks. but I've been there, and my advice is to withdraw from your college, go home and maybe take some classes at your local junior college. your health is more important than a degree. and in time you'll either get a degree or get enough experience that it doesn't matter anymore.
If you can code, you're not enjoying school, and you're always coding instead of studying anyway, just drop out for a few years and go join a startup (they don't care about degrees). You can always go back to school if it's absolutely necessary.
Disclaimer: it's what I did, so I'm biased.
Disclaimer: it's what I did, so I'm biased.
Get yourself to a shrink, seriously. Call it ADHD or whatever but it sounds like you have the drive, just a problem with focus.
join the army... write code in your down time... get a girlfriend... smoke some pot... go back to school when you have a clue.
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Some companies see a degree as a must, some will offer you less money if you don't have one, and a growing number don't care. (Since a degree hardly makes you stand out anymore.) You will probably be surprised at how many companies follow this formula: "we need this > you can build this > you're hired". (And that is the only thing they go on.)
If it was me, I would just lie and say I have a degree. Keep applying until you find a company that doesn't check. If you are smart and talented, no one will think twice. Even if they do, there's a chance you'll be entrenched in the position and they won't want the cost of replacing you any way. Don't be scared, just always think about your options and choices, especially the unconventional/controversial ones...
If it was me, I would just lie and say I have a degree. Keep applying until you find a company that doesn't check. If you are smart and talented, no one will think twice. Even if they do, there's a chance you'll be entrenched in the position and they won't want the cost of replacing you any way. Don't be scared, just always think about your options and choices, especially the unconventional/controversial ones...
I don't think lying is good advice for anything. No one wants to live a lie and word can travel fast and ruin this guys credibility depending on the industry he wants to get into.
There are plenty of very honest people living under bridges and eating rats.
You either think it's wrong for a starving man to steal bread, or you don't.
You either think it's wrong for a starving man to steal bread, or you don't.
> If it was me, I would just lie and say I have a degree. Keep applying until you find a company that doesn't check. If you are smart and talented, no one will think twice.
That doesn't seem like particularly good advice. Here's what I would have suggested instead:
> If it was me, I would just tell the truth and say I didn't have a degree. Keep applying until you find a company that doesn't mind. If you are smart and talented, the better employers won't think twice.
That doesn't seem like particularly good advice. Here's what I would have suggested instead:
> If it was me, I would just tell the truth and say I didn't have a degree. Keep applying until you find a company that doesn't mind. If you are smart and talented, the better employers won't think twice.
That part is not advice, it's just sharing what I would do.
I have no willpower to do anything in any of my non-major courses. I love computer science, but it is a struggle for me. Virtually all of my time is spent in my CS and Math courses, and I am failing them too. This will be my last semester, there is no recovering my grades. Luckily my parents are footing the bill, and parental shame aside, nothing terrible is going to happen as a result of me failing college.
I want to just work on something for someone. I don’t have enough savings to pay rent and won’t be able to ask my parents for assistance when I fail out. Living at home is the last option I want to explore. Is there any chance of getting hired without a CS degree? I have three years of summer internships at a C# shop, but all the places around me require a degree to even apply (far northeast USA).
I don’t know how people handle situations like this. Is there some sort of person I can talk to about how to go about getting a job, moving to that location, not getting screwed on rent…
I am lost and frankly, fucking scared. Anyone have any advice, or been in a situation similar to this one?