NSA reform panel: Foreigners actually have privacy rights, too(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
NSA reform panel: Foreigners actually have privacy rights, too
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/12/spying-reform-panel-the-world-is-not-the-nsas-playground/
10 comments
I was talking to someone who works for a company that does cloud hosting of very high end business applications (i.e. specialized finance systems) and he said they were seeing a lot of European companies starting to look at moving their hosting from the US to the EU - largely due to the recent NSA revelations.
I must admit that this rather surprised me - but I have no reason to doubt him.
I must admit that this rather surprised me - but I have no reason to doubt him.
Finance is all about informational asymmetries. If I traded on informational asymmetries, I'd consider the US government surveillance apparatus to be a huge threat. At the end of the day, the analysts at Fort Meade are probably the least worrisome of the people with access to all this data. The biggest threat are all the consultancies involved in the US intelligence industry. Companies like Booz Allen simply have too many ties to the financial industry and the security industry, and anyone who has worked in finance knows that Chinese walls and other mechanisms to prevent conflicts of interest are simply security theater.
There are other costs outside of the US also:
Given that the NSA is so aggressive (all pipes being suspect now) the changes politically demanded will:
-lessen convenience of all software and increasing the costs for users to interact with it in terms of time and complexity.
-building and deploying security solutions can be expensive especially to those products that do not lend themselves to security--more engineering increases costs.
-increase in cpu cycles as we all increase key sizes and introduce encryption where once there was none, or limited for authentication only.
Id bet this will be a small drag on the world economy and certainly a drag on the world software industry. It could be thought of as a world wide tax.
-lessen convenience of all software and increasing the costs for users to interact with it in terms of time and complexity.
-building and deploying security solutions can be expensive especially to those products that do not lend themselves to security--more engineering increases costs.
-increase in cpu cycles as we all increase key sizes and introduce encryption where once there was none, or limited for authentication only.
Id bet this will be a small drag on the world economy and certainly a drag on the world software industry. It could be thought of as a world wide tax.
There could be a slightly brighter side to it, if you consider the additional security to be a good thing.
> I must admit that this rather surprised me
Why does it surprise you? It's come to light the American government is sifting through everything it can get it's hands on. Any rational person would take steps to try and prevent their important data being looked at.
Why does it surprise you? It's come to light the American government is sifting through everything it can get it's hands on. Any rational person would take steps to try and prevent their important data being looked at.
The NSA's job has been to spy on foreigners since the Cold War. I don't understand how the new revelations are some how a big surprise?
Also moving your cloud hosting to an EU country is probably going to buy you exactly zero safety. The majority of the internet traffic in the world routes through the USA regardless or origin / destination.
Also moving your cloud hosting to an EU country is probably going to buy you exactly zero safety. The majority of the internet traffic in the world routes through the USA regardless or origin / destination.
Also moving your cloud hosting to an EU country is probably going to buy you exactly zero safety.
Economically it may have some effect though. A lot of this is sending a message as much as securing anything.
edit - also, anyone serious who is switching from US servers over this issue at the moment will be unlikely to be only switching servers, it will most likely be just the first part of a general security upgrade.
Economically it may have some effect though. A lot of this is sending a message as much as securing anything.
edit - also, anyone serious who is switching from US servers over this issue at the moment will be unlikely to be only switching servers, it will most likely be just the first part of a general security upgrade.
Foreign governments, yes. But the wholesale monitoring of the public at large (every last one of us) is what came as a bit of a revalation.
I recall times when we in Europe perceived NSA to be working on behalf of us to protect against our common threats in China/Russia/Mideast/whatever - you know, being allies, NATO, common military operations, so on.
Seeing them as the most powerful force hostile against us in the digital world is some shift in mindset, when coming from that history.
Seeing them as the most powerful force hostile against us in the digital world is some shift in mindset, when coming from that history.
They aren't spying on you (if in fact you aren't plotting to kill Americans)...
How would they find that out without first spying on you?
As general Alexander mentioned in the 60 Minutes interview, they may collect lots of data but don't examine it or bother to look until they have a warrant or need. Kind if like what you do with your logging collection service....
NSA is known to abuse their intel for USA commercial interests (the largest published example probably is Airbus vs Boeing).
You don't have to fear them unless you're a terrorist. Or you're a member of a social organization with a somewhat similar name to a religious organization (Dr. Rahinah Ibrahim case, for example) in which case US authorities will treat your info as terrorist info. Or your partner criticizes US government (e.g. David Miranda case), in which case your communications apparently can be intercepted as well. Or your company competes with US companies. Or something else that I hadn't noticed...
I mean "may collect lots of data until they have some need to use it" is evil enough to be perceived as a hostile enemy act.
You don't have to fear them unless you're a terrorist. Or you're a member of a social organization with a somewhat similar name to a religious organization (Dr. Rahinah Ibrahim case, for example) in which case US authorities will treat your info as terrorist info. Or your partner criticizes US government (e.g. David Miranda case), in which case your communications apparently can be intercepted as well. Or your company competes with US companies. Or something else that I hadn't noticed...
I mean "may collect lots of data until they have some need to use it" is evil enough to be perceived as a hostile enemy act.
Prove it. "Trust us" is not verifiable.
> The majority of the internet traffic in the world routes through the USA regardless or origin / destination.
I was suspicious of your claim since this didn't line up with my experience of using traceroute. So, I don't think this is really true anymore; especially for Europe. Have a look at this infografic [1] by the NYtimes linked from this 2008 (!) article [2].
[1] http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/08/30/business/30pipe... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/business/30pipes.html
I was suspicious of your claim since this didn't line up with my experience of using traceroute. So, I don't think this is really true anymore; especially for Europe. Have a look at this infografic [1] by the NYtimes linked from this 2008 (!) article [2].
[1] http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/08/30/business/30pipe... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/business/30pipes.html
The feigned outrage of EU leaders who have data sharing agreements with the NSA is not credible. Europe has outsourced most of their defense and intelligence for good reason, why do everything twice when the West is cooperating with each other. I'll believe there is a problem when Germany even begins to consider closing a couple US military bases.
I've been looking/waiting for an article like this ever since news of the NSA spying was released (but haven't been looking particularly hard). All of what I've seen previously discussed whether the spying has been legal/appropriate to do to US Citizens, while I've always felt it has been a bad idea regardless of citizenship.
I haven't really thought it through, but I sometimes wish that the international blowback does happen, and happens in a big way. I think the US government has betrayed the world's trust, and I would like to see repercussions. As a software engineer working in Silicon Valley for a company that sells software internationally, it would not be good for my industry. However, my country's morality compass seems to be broken, and I'd appreciate if the rest of the world helped us to get back on track.
I haven't really thought it through, but I sometimes wish that the international blowback does happen, and happens in a big way. I think the US government has betrayed the world's trust, and I would like to see repercussions. As a software engineer working in Silicon Valley for a company that sells software internationally, it would not be good for my industry. However, my country's morality compass seems to be broken, and I'd appreciate if the rest of the world helped us to get back on track.
As a foreigner, I appreciate your sensibility. I'm constantly under the impression that most americans would be fine with the NSA surveillance programs if they didn't target americans. That viewpoint is exactly what earned America so many enemies along the years. America doesn't need better intel or military, it needs better international policies. What good is it to be the richest country on Earth if you have a sick/stressed society that is constantly under threat, and with increasingly fewer civil liberties?
Today, I don't think I would want to live in the US... and if you'd asked me 15 years ago I would have jumped at the opportunity.
Today, I don't think I would want to live in the US... and if you'd asked me 15 years ago I would have jumped at the opportunity.
Exactly. I myself have this secret fantasy that one day we'll realize that we'd buy 10x the security, by taking the 33 cents of every tax dollar we spend on defense and using it to help all the countries in the world that we want to like us. We can build a lot more goodwill by building nations than destroying them. If we're seen as the people that show up at your countries doorstep and improve your human condition until it's on par with most developed countries, then that would earn us a lot more security because we'd have popular global support.
Which is going to be more impactful?
1) Don't mess with us or we will mess with you? or 2) If you mess with us, we'll show up and improve life for your own population, where they will clearly support kicking you out to let us in to help out.
The former is the conclusion you come to if you view all the best possible outcome as the result of Pareto optimalities or the result of a Nash equilibrium.
It's like "how to make friends and influence people" for nation states.
Which is going to be more impactful?
1) Don't mess with us or we will mess with you? or 2) If you mess with us, we'll show up and improve life for your own population, where they will clearly support kicking you out to let us in to help out.
The former is the conclusion you come to if you view all the best possible outcome as the result of Pareto optimalities or the result of a Nash equilibrium.
It's like "how to make friends and influence people" for nation states.
I'm a foreigner. And I'll be honest: I expect and assume the NSA (and any other country) will be spying on my traffic if they have access to it. If we assume (even though I disagree) that an NSA with capabilities like this is needed, then targeting me as a foreigner is... Well, sort of the point.
Where the issue arises is that so much traffic goes through the US, a choice to use non US companies etc to avoid this becomes moot... So whenever I think about this, I end up back at square one and see the need for end to end encryption on everything. :(
Edit: I'm in a Five Eyes country too, just FYI. Also, anyone ever get the feeling that the entire point of the internet is kind of... Incongruent with national borders and laws that live within them? I'm not arguing for anarchy or a new global order, truly I don't see a good way of reconciling the feeling of "square peg round hole" I get when I think about this stuff.
Where the issue arises is that so much traffic goes through the US, a choice to use non US companies etc to avoid this becomes moot... So whenever I think about this, I end up back at square one and see the need for end to end encryption on everything. :(
Edit: I'm in a Five Eyes country too, just FYI. Also, anyone ever get the feeling that the entire point of the internet is kind of... Incongruent with national borders and laws that live within them? I'm not arguing for anarchy or a new global order, truly I don't see a good way of reconciling the feeling of "square peg round hole" I get when I think about this stuff.
My gmail signature says "Privacy Notice: the NSA likely has a copy of this email". My own little bit of civil disobedience.
Some people ask about it - and I explain that as Canadian living in the US - all my emails seem to fall under the umbrella of "ok to collect".
I'm hoping this makes people think "hmmm, is there anything in this email I don't want to send?" And realize the true impact of surveillance state - changing what we think and communicate to others.
Some people ask about it - and I explain that as Canadian living in the US - all my emails seem to fall under the umbrella of "ok to collect".
I'm hoping this makes people think "hmmm, is there anything in this email I don't want to send?" And realize the true impact of surveillance state - changing what we think and communicate to others.
I'll echo Eric Posner's article on this issue: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_ch....
There's a big difference between not spying on foreigners because the government is legally constrained from doing so, and not spying on foreigners because it's bad foreign policy. The former idea is ridiculous: we do not live under world government where sovereign nations are subject to international legal restrictions. The latter idea is eminently sensible.
There's a big difference between not spying on foreigners because the government is legally constrained from doing so, and not spying on foreigners because it's bad foreign policy. The former idea is ridiculous: we do not live under world government where sovereign nations are subject to international legal restrictions. The latter idea is eminently sensible.
Actually, I think Posner's position is backwards and untenable in a modern globalized context. If we assume that human rights must be respected regardless of nationality, then national borders must be subservient to human rights.
Reading the universal declaration of human rights, these articles jump out at me for specifically this context:
Article 6: Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Therefore, you cannot exclude people from due process because they are foreigners.
Article 7: All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law.
Therefore, you cannot have one kind of due process for your own people, and another kind for foreigners.
Article 12: No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Therefore, the U.S. system of law is obligated to protect foreigners from undue interference by the NSA, to an equal degree as U.S. citizens are protected.
Now, you can say that the human rights declaration is just a bunch of words without legal weight, and that in a realpolitik context it's simply impossible to give everyone their human rights in the current world even if you wanted to. And you would be right. When you read the UDHR it is depressing how far we have to go. But ... on this point, at this time, we can make genuine progress. So, why not? If what the NSA is doing is wrong when applied to U.S. citizens, it is wrong when applied to foreigners.
In the long run, people like Posner will be viewed as those who held back the tide of progress. The social struggle for equal human rights for all is not done, and it won't be for centuries, but you definitely want to be at the right side of history at each inflection point, and this is one of them.
Reading the universal declaration of human rights, these articles jump out at me for specifically this context:
Article 6: Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Therefore, you cannot exclude people from due process because they are foreigners.
Article 7: All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law.
Therefore, you cannot have one kind of due process for your own people, and another kind for foreigners.
Article 12: No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Therefore, the U.S. system of law is obligated to protect foreigners from undue interference by the NSA, to an equal degree as U.S. citizens are protected.
Now, you can say that the human rights declaration is just a bunch of words without legal weight, and that in a realpolitik context it's simply impossible to give everyone their human rights in the current world even if you wanted to. And you would be right. When you read the UDHR it is depressing how far we have to go. But ... on this point, at this time, we can make genuine progress. So, why not? If what the NSA is doing is wrong when applied to U.S. citizens, it is wrong when applied to foreigners.
In the long run, people like Posner will be viewed as those who held back the tide of progress. The social struggle for equal human rights for all is not done, and it won't be for centuries, but you definitely want to be at the right side of history at each inflection point, and this is one of them.
Here's the problem with recognizing "human rights" in a "modern globalized context." They're either meaningless verbiage, as the UDHR are, or enforceable norms, which presuppose some "modern globalized" body with the power to enforce norms.
I disagree that in the long run, people will find it so imperative to respect a universal set of "human rights" that they will be willing to give up autonomy to submit to international norms to enforce those rights. Yes, the arc of history trends towards greater recognition of rights. But it also shows that groups of like minded people always struggle for autonomy. Nationalist movements are just as common in history as civil rights movements.
Consider the UDHR itself. Most things in there are things Americans can agree with. But take Article 24 (right to holidays with pay), Article 25 (right to healthcare and housing), Article 26 (right to education), Article 27(2) (right to copyright protection). A lot of people, all over the world, would find calling one or more of these things "human rights" utterly ridiculous. You think they'd be in favor of giving up the autonomy of their countries to decide for themselves what social norms to adhere to, so as to elevate to an exalted status a set of norms determined mostly by other people?
I disagree that in the long run, people will find it so imperative to respect a universal set of "human rights" that they will be willing to give up autonomy to submit to international norms to enforce those rights. Yes, the arc of history trends towards greater recognition of rights. But it also shows that groups of like minded people always struggle for autonomy. Nationalist movements are just as common in history as civil rights movements.
Consider the UDHR itself. Most things in there are things Americans can agree with. But take Article 24 (right to holidays with pay), Article 25 (right to healthcare and housing), Article 26 (right to education), Article 27(2) (right to copyright protection). A lot of people, all over the world, would find calling one or more of these things "human rights" utterly ridiculous. You think they'd be in favor of giving up the autonomy of their countries to decide for themselves what social norms to adhere to, so as to elevate to an exalted status a set of norms determined mostly by other people?
I disagree that the UDHR is "meaningless verbiage". It is a commonly agreed standard to which all can be held and criticised when they fall short and gain respect when it is largely achieved.
Of course it was a compromise and people might prefer some items not included but that compromise was agreed to and is what it is.
On something like privacy it says that it is a human right and that people should generally have it respected, it is useful because it make clear and explicit the wrong that the NSA have been doing at home and abroad.
Of course it was a compromise and people might prefer some items not included but that compromise was agreed to and is what it is.
On something like privacy it says that it is a human right and that people should generally have it respected, it is useful because it make clear and explicit the wrong that the NSA have been doing at home and abroad.
> It is a commonly agreed standard to which all can be held and criticised when they fall short and gain respect when it is largely achieved.
But nobody can be "held" to the UDHR. They can be criticized for not following it, but countries can be criticized for their practices without the UDHR too! The word "right" has to have more meaning than "we'll criticize you if you don't do this."
But nobody can be "held" to the UDHR. They can be criticized for not following it, but countries can be criticized for their practices without the UDHR too! The word "right" has to have more meaning than "we'll criticize you if you don't do this."
Rights don't depend on enforcement that is the whole point of Rights theory and the background to the US Declaration of Independence ("We hold these truths to be self evident…").
Once the existence of rights is accept there is the issue of deciding what they are e.g. US Bill of Rights, European Convention on Human Rights, UDHR etc.
The next question is enforcement (US constitution, European Court of Human Rights) but isn't essential, the agreement of standards does matter even if there is no enforcement.
Once the existence of rights is accept there is the issue of deciding what they are e.g. US Bill of Rights, European Convention on Human Rights, UDHR etc.
The next question is enforcement (US constitution, European Court of Human Rights) but isn't essential, the agreement of standards does matter even if there is no enforcement.
If you are unable to excercise a 'right' because armed men will take you away if you do so, then that 'right' de facto simply doesn't exist in your area.
UDHR is a declaration of some consensus between quite a few people and organizations on what rights humans should have - but most of the current population doesn't have them in practice.
For all practical purposes, any enforced triviality matters much more than an unenforceable theoretical right.
Sure, there is a theory of rights claiming that there exist unalienable rights that people simply have. And there's a theory of rights claiming that there exist exactly those rights that are granted by those able to grant them in practice, by the sovereign powers. One of these theories happens to match the observations of reality, the actual behaviour of massed homo sapiens groups - and the other is well, just a wishful theory that doesn't provide truthful predictions or conclusions about actual future events.
UDHR is a declaration of some consensus between quite a few people and organizations on what rights humans should have - but most of the current population doesn't have them in practice.
For all practical purposes, any enforced triviality matters much more than an unenforceable theoretical right.
Sure, there is a theory of rights claiming that there exist unalienable rights that people simply have. And there's a theory of rights claiming that there exist exactly those rights that are granted by those able to grant them in practice, by the sovereign powers. One of these theories happens to match the observations of reality, the actual behaviour of massed homo sapiens groups - and the other is well, just a wishful theory that doesn't provide truthful predictions or conclusions about actual future events.
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> we do not live under world government where sovereign nations are subject to international legal restrictions
We ought to. The notion that nation-states are allowed to run rampage and be as anarchic as they please, internationally, is stupid.
We ought to. The notion that nation-states are allowed to run rampage and be as anarchic as they please, internationally, is stupid.
The problem with world government, and international frameworks in general, is that people who don't think like you can nonetheless legally bind you. At least to the extent that you mix international frameworks with democracy.
My family emigrated to the U.S. from Bangladesh. It's a place where you see women covered up in the name of Islam, etc, and its getting worse over the last 20 years, not better. I have absolutely zero desire to be part of a democratic community with people who believe these things, and I bet if you're honest with yourself neither do you. But that's what happens when you mix international legal norms with democracy. You oblige yourself to follow the votes of people who have totally different cultural values to yourself.
And this isn't a one-way street either. I imagine most Europeans would prefer not to be part of a democratic community that included Americans and their notably more conservative approach to many issues.
My family emigrated to the U.S. from Bangladesh. It's a place where you see women covered up in the name of Islam, etc, and its getting worse over the last 20 years, not better. I have absolutely zero desire to be part of a democratic community with people who believe these things, and I bet if you're honest with yourself neither do you. But that's what happens when you mix international legal norms with democracy. You oblige yourself to follow the votes of people who have totally different cultural values to yourself.
And this isn't a one-way street either. I imagine most Europeans would prefer not to be part of a democratic community that included Americans and their notably more conservative approach to many issues.
Sometimes I would also prefer not to be part of a democratic community that includes ultra-conservative Americans. Sometimes I would prefer not to be thrown in with the barely-liberal Americans. Thank goodness we are all in a republic, where none of our votes really matter.
A democratic world government would be a disaster. Democracy works best when all the participants have common interests and culture. Since the incredible diversity of humanity would never naturally align on any given issue, it would just get co-opted by pre-existing powers. Probably the first things that would happen are the creation of a global central bank, followed by price-fixing in the fossil fuels markets.
I believe I'll just sign up with the rebels now, to save time.
A democratic world government would be a disaster. Democracy works best when all the participants have common interests and culture. Since the incredible diversity of humanity would never naturally align on any given issue, it would just get co-opted by pre-existing powers. Probably the first things that would happen are the creation of a global central bank, followed by price-fixing in the fossil fuels markets.
I believe I'll just sign up with the rebels now, to save time.
The variation of opinion across the U.S. is at least as big as the variation across the planet. Just watch Louis Theroux's documentaries to see the evidence of this. You have extremist thinkers in any country. That is why we have democracy and political parties, to find compromise through negotiation, and why we have constitutions and courts of law to uphold them, to ensure basic rights cannot be trampled with the shifting of the political winds. The scale at which you apply democracy and constitutional rights doesn't really matter, except that it is unfair to apply it unequally.
Now, I know what you're thinking. Can you take iran and israel and make one country out of them? What a ridiculous idea, it would only end in bloodshed. Here's the thing that's ridiculous to me: that we tolerate it when countries deny people their human rights because it happens inside their borders. Team America, World Police, right? Well, despite being a European I'm all for that if it means we finally get rid of human rights violations. It's not ok to deny women their human rights, so Iranians must eventually comply with that or face consequences before a court of law. Similarly it's not ok for Israelis and Palestinians to deny each other their human rights, so eventually they must comply with that or face consequences before a court of law.
The way I see it, the discussion is not about what needs to be done, only on when it will come about. Economically, we've already formed frameworks that span the globe, like the WTO and IMF, and we have somehow managed to bring everyone into a single unified economic theory, even the communists. Now we just need to do the same thing for the other half of what governments do and unify the social theory.
Now, I know what you're thinking. Can you take iran and israel and make one country out of them? What a ridiculous idea, it would only end in bloodshed. Here's the thing that's ridiculous to me: that we tolerate it when countries deny people their human rights because it happens inside their borders. Team America, World Police, right? Well, despite being a European I'm all for that if it means we finally get rid of human rights violations. It's not ok to deny women their human rights, so Iranians must eventually comply with that or face consequences before a court of law. Similarly it's not ok for Israelis and Palestinians to deny each other their human rights, so eventually they must comply with that or face consequences before a court of law.
The way I see it, the discussion is not about what needs to be done, only on when it will come about. Economically, we've already formed frameworks that span the globe, like the WTO and IMF, and we have somehow managed to bring everyone into a single unified economic theory, even the communists. Now we just need to do the same thing for the other half of what governments do and unify the social theory.
> The variation of opinion across the U.S. is at least as big as the variation across the planet. Just watch Louis Theroux's documentaries to see the evidence of this. You have extremist thinkers in any country.
I'm sure the range of viewpoints within the U.S. is bigger than the difference between the average viewpoint in the U.S. and the average viewpoint in Bangladesh. But what's the really relevant measure is the average viewpoint in the U.S., weighted by 300 million people, and the average viewpoint in Bangladesh, weighted by 150 million people, and the gap between those two huge masses of beliefs.
Moreover, we have internal boundaries in the U.S. to ease certain internal disparities in belief systems. E.g. right to work versus right to unionize? That's decided at the state level. "Rights" that are recognized at the national level tend to be supported by national consensus, and when they're not
> and why we have constitutions and courts of law to uphold them
Who decides what's in the constitutions? Unelected Philosopher-Kings? If, instead, people get input into the constitutions by which they're governed, then you're back to square one. Bangladesh, originally created as a secular republic, amended its constitution in the late 1980's to make Islam the state religion. The new Egyptian constitution makes "the principles of Islamic law the main source of legislation..." Which courts of law are going to tell them they can't do that? What of the real danger that they tell us that we have to do that?
I'm sure the range of viewpoints within the U.S. is bigger than the difference between the average viewpoint in the U.S. and the average viewpoint in Bangladesh. But what's the really relevant measure is the average viewpoint in the U.S., weighted by 300 million people, and the average viewpoint in Bangladesh, weighted by 150 million people, and the gap between those two huge masses of beliefs.
Moreover, we have internal boundaries in the U.S. to ease certain internal disparities in belief systems. E.g. right to work versus right to unionize? That's decided at the state level. "Rights" that are recognized at the national level tend to be supported by national consensus, and when they're not
> and why we have constitutions and courts of law to uphold them
Who decides what's in the constitutions? Unelected Philosopher-Kings? If, instead, people get input into the constitutions by which they're governed, then you're back to square one. Bangladesh, originally created as a secular republic, amended its constitution in the late 1980's to make Islam the state religion. The new Egyptian constitution makes "the principles of Islamic law the main source of legislation..." Which courts of law are going to tell them they can't do that? What of the real danger that they tell us that we have to do that?
I believe the Awami League government just undid this? In any case, they don't have anything as bad as the Objectives Resolution.
The variation of opinion across the U.S. is at least as big as the variation across the planet.
Nitpicking: That is impossible - besides both variations are equally large - because the USA is a part of the planet. But I guess the variations in many countries are not much smaller than across the whole planet.
Nitpicking: That is impossible - besides both variations are equally large - because the USA is a part of the planet. But I guess the variations in many countries are not much smaller than across the whole planet.
> That is why we have democracy and political parties, to find compromise through negotiation
To be fair, in America, and on paper at least, that's why we don't have a straight democracy, but we actually have a federal republic, and a bill of rights that protects all.
In a democracy, you end up effecting the will of the majority, even where that majority is wrong. In America, there is no shortage of people who would be more than happy to restrict one's right to free religion, free speech, etc., etc. In a pure democracy, even with political parties, we'd be subject to whichever party happened to be the majority. In the case of Russia, that may be the Orthodox Church, in the case of Iran, it may be Islamists, in the case of America, it could be the Catholic Church.
We set aside a purer democracy for the notion that all beliefs that do not harm others are allowed, and we have (in theory at least) protections that exist specifically to shield the minority from the majority. While we don't allow for the stoning of adulterers in this country (as that would most specifically infringe on the rights of those being stoned), we do allow for freedom of religion, even where that religion is Satanism, Islam, or any other religion that does not share the majority view.
To be fair, in America, and on paper at least, that's why we don't have a straight democracy, but we actually have a federal republic, and a bill of rights that protects all.
In a democracy, you end up effecting the will of the majority, even where that majority is wrong. In America, there is no shortage of people who would be more than happy to restrict one's right to free religion, free speech, etc., etc. In a pure democracy, even with political parties, we'd be subject to whichever party happened to be the majority. In the case of Russia, that may be the Orthodox Church, in the case of Iran, it may be Islamists, in the case of America, it could be the Catholic Church.
We set aside a purer democracy for the notion that all beliefs that do not harm others are allowed, and we have (in theory at least) protections that exist specifically to shield the minority from the majority. While we don't allow for the stoning of adulterers in this country (as that would most specifically infringe on the rights of those being stoned), we do allow for freedom of religion, even where that religion is Satanism, Islam, or any other religion that does not share the majority view.
I was about to say, one of the main tenets of American democracy is the separation of powers, both between branches of government and among the various levels of government. Compromise is important, but possibly more important is pitting different self-interests against each other to find common restraint.
Believe me, as the child of Pakistani emigrants, I can safely say Bangladesh could have done a _lot_ worse. At least you made your constitution vaguely secular.
>The notion that nation-states are allowed to run rampage and be as anarchic as they please, internationally, is stupid.
A world government sounds nice in theory (let's call it 'The Federation'), but I don't think you could even joke about one without peeving off more than half of the global populace. We simply aren't at a place in human history where international law can actually be binding or where nations can put aside their differences and work together (also known as a Power-of-Friendship-ocracy).
So, yeah, a total lack of enforceable international law/government is a stupid idea; I'm just not sure anyone has a better idea yet.
A world government sounds nice in theory (let's call it 'The Federation'), but I don't think you could even joke about one without peeving off more than half of the global populace. We simply aren't at a place in human history where international law can actually be binding or where nations can put aside their differences and work together (also known as a Power-of-Friendship-ocracy).
So, yeah, a total lack of enforceable international law/government is a stupid idea; I'm just not sure anyone has a better idea yet.
Or maybe it would be enforceable but we wouldn't like the means or ends of the enforcement. Why would a world government be any less corrupt, unjust, inept, or capricious than the median national government?
It's not that different from the idealized model of a federated US that many would like to see: a mostly powerless federal government with states running rampant and as anarchic as they please.
That said, I fully support the formation of a real planetary government.
That said, I fully support the formation of a real planetary government.
One person's rampant and anarchic state government is another's marijuana legalization, gambling legalization, or universal pre-K.
> we do not live under world government where sovereign nations are subject to international legal restrictions
There is no need for "world government". For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_...
You know, if human rights didn't transcend nations they probably wouldn't be called that way.
And don't US constitution and laws also have things in them that apply to all people, period? Honest question, I don't know in detail; but I do know "you" signed the above -- sure it's not enforcable, but that doesn't give you the moral high ground, too.
There is no need for "world government". For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_...
You know, if human rights didn't transcend nations they probably wouldn't be called that way.
And don't US constitution and laws also have things in them that apply to all people, period? Honest question, I don't know in detail; but I do know "you" signed the above -- sure it's not enforcable, but that doesn't give you the moral high ground, too.
Peanuts are neither peas nor nuts, but rather legumes, and despite the use of the word "right" in the UDHR, the document does not actually create any legal restrictions. Also, it has no signatories. It was passed by voice vote, with "yea" votes including the U.S. and other wonderful rights-loving countries like China, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Liberia, etc.
Yeah but that still leaves the laws the US gives itself, see other reply.
Of course the U.S. could pass laws or Constitutional amendments limiting how the government can treat foreigners on foreign soil, though even then are questions of enforceability. The executive was designed to be able to exercise all of the powers of the European sovereigns when it came to the world outside the U.S. Meanwhile, the courts are fundamentally domestic institutions. So if Congress created a law banning the President from conducting drone strikes of foreign nationals in Afghanistan, and someone sued the President in federal court to enforce that law, there would be multiple separation of powers problems. First, the law is quite possibly an impermissible impingement by Congress onto the military discretion of the President. Second, even hearing the case would quite possibly be an impermissible impingement by the judiciary into political affairs.
The problem lies where the UDHR doesn't hold to local values. In the US, for example, we have codified the second amendment in our Constitution. Most other nations don't share this belief. In Iran, the stoning of adulterers could be seen as religious expression, though the most of the world doesn't share that view. In short, the UDHR, at least as it exists currently, doesn't allow for heterogeneity. In some cases, that may be clearly right, and in other cases, it may be clearly wrong -- but only from a particular point of view, and only by imposing value judgements... and with value judgements, more often than not, there is no clear, demonstrable answer.
> And don't US constitution and laws also have things in them that apply to all people, period?
I think what you're referring to is the content of the fourteenth amendment. Ironically enough, not a part of the original Constitution or Bill of Rights, but it is there, though it only applies to US citizenry.
> And don't US constitution and laws also have things in them that apply to all people, period?
I think what you're referring to is the content of the fourteenth amendment. Ironically enough, not a part of the original Constitution or Bill of Rights, but it is there, though it only applies to US citizenry.
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the
privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor
shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property,
without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its
jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.> though it only applies to US citizenry
Oh? I always read the "any person" as being distinct from "citizens". As in, citizens get "privileges", but everybody gets due process.
And the first thing I just looked at seemed to confirm just that:
http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar... (it's a PDF sorry)
> Given this record, it is not surprising that many members of the general public presume that noncitizens do not deserve the same rights as citizens. But the presumption is wrong in many more respects than it is right. While some distinctions between foreign nationals and citizens are normatively justified and consistent with constitutional and international law, most are not. The significance of the citizen/noncitizen distinction is more often presumed than carefully examined. Upon examination, there is far less to the distinction than commonly thought. In particular, foreign nationals are generally entitled to the equal protection of the laws, to political freedoms of speech and association, and to due process requirements of fair procedure where their lives, liberty, or property are at stake.
But of course, rights are presumed to not even exist are even more useless than those that aren't enforced :/
Oh? I always read the "any person" as being distinct from "citizens". As in, citizens get "privileges", but everybody gets due process.
And the first thing I just looked at seemed to confirm just that:
http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar... (it's a PDF sorry)
> Given this record, it is not surprising that many members of the general public presume that noncitizens do not deserve the same rights as citizens. But the presumption is wrong in many more respects than it is right. While some distinctions between foreign nationals and citizens are normatively justified and consistent with constitutional and international law, most are not. The significance of the citizen/noncitizen distinction is more often presumed than carefully examined. Upon examination, there is far less to the distinction than commonly thought. In particular, foreign nationals are generally entitled to the equal protection of the laws, to political freedoms of speech and association, and to due process requirements of fair procedure where their lives, liberty, or property are at stake.
But of course, rights are presumed to not even exist are even more useless than those that aren't enforced :/
You're not wrong. The states are barred from enacting laws that discriminate against citizenry, and enforcement is barred from punishing anybody without their fifth amendment privileges of due process.
Despite that though, there's nothing to bar the state from enacting a law that discriminates against foreign citizens, and nothing to prevent due process from affecting the punishments ascribed as violation of the law.
For a real-world scenario, the state of California could require non-citizens to provide work visas or other such requirements before allowing them to be employed within the state, whereas (at least my interpretation of the OP's post read) that is otherwise discriminatory. In this context, it is legal, and even accepted practice to discriminate against non-citizens.
In a time when the mayor of New York City has stated (paraphrasing) that the only problem he sees with "stop and frisk" is that too many white people are stopped, and not enough minorities, I don't think it's too far a cry to imagine a scenario in which a law might be written that effectively nullifieis portinos of the Constitution as they pertain to non-citizens.
> But of course, rights are presumed to not even exist are even more useless than those that aren't enforced
Agreed. Further, the idea that the Bill of Rights encompasses the only rights that men may have is equally naive, as is the idea that a right must be codified in a document somewhere in order for it to exist. Our transition from a mindset of "individuals have rights, except where those rights infringe the rights of others" to "individuals have only the rights already codified, and must ask permission for everything else" is, in my opinion, a broken way to interpret our nation's governing documents.
Despite that though, there's nothing to bar the state from enacting a law that discriminates against foreign citizens, and nothing to prevent due process from affecting the punishments ascribed as violation of the law.
For a real-world scenario, the state of California could require non-citizens to provide work visas or other such requirements before allowing them to be employed within the state, whereas (at least my interpretation of the OP's post read) that is otherwise discriminatory. In this context, it is legal, and even accepted practice to discriminate against non-citizens.
In a time when the mayor of New York City has stated (paraphrasing) that the only problem he sees with "stop and frisk" is that too many white people are stopped, and not enough minorities, I don't think it's too far a cry to imagine a scenario in which a law might be written that effectively nullifieis portinos of the Constitution as they pertain to non-citizens.
> But of course, rights are presumed to not even exist are even more useless than those that aren't enforced
Agreed. Further, the idea that the Bill of Rights encompasses the only rights that men may have is equally naive, as is the idea that a right must be codified in a document somewhere in order for it to exist. Our transition from a mindset of "individuals have rights, except where those rights infringe the rights of others" to "individuals have only the rights already codified, and must ask permission for everything else" is, in my opinion, a broken way to interpret our nation's governing documents.
> there's nothing to bar the state from enacting a law that discriminates against foreign citizens
There are, namely constitutional rights. What you said only applies to citizenry doesn't only apply to citizenry. You really should read the pdf. Another snippet:
> the Supreme Court has squarely stated that neither the First Amendment nor the Fifth Amendment "acknowledges any distinction between citizens and resident aliens." For more than a century, the Court has recognized that the Equal Protection Clause is "universal in [its] application, to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to differences of nationality." The Court has repeatedly stated that "the Due Process Clause applies to all 'persons' within the United States, including aliens, whether their presence here is lawful, unlawful, temporary, or permanent." When noncitizens, no matter what their status, are tried for crimes, they are entitled to all of the rights that attach to the criminal process, without any distinction based on their nationality.
Maybe we could argue about people outside of the jurisdiction. But it's flat out a common misconception that most of these rights don't apply to non-citizens. When it says persons and people, it means persons and people.
There are, namely constitutional rights. What you said only applies to citizenry doesn't only apply to citizenry. You really should read the pdf. Another snippet:
> the Supreme Court has squarely stated that neither the First Amendment nor the Fifth Amendment "acknowledges any distinction between citizens and resident aliens." For more than a century, the Court has recognized that the Equal Protection Clause is "universal in [its] application, to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to differences of nationality." The Court has repeatedly stated that "the Due Process Clause applies to all 'persons' within the United States, including aliens, whether their presence here is lawful, unlawful, temporary, or permanent." When noncitizens, no matter what their status, are tried for crimes, they are entitled to all of the rights that attach to the criminal process, without any distinction based on their nationality.
Maybe we could argue about people outside of the jurisdiction. But it's flat out a common misconception that most of these rights don't apply to non-citizens. When it says persons and people, it means persons and people.
That doesn't disagree with what I've said. I acknowledged your statement, and agreed with it here,
> enforcement is barred from punishing anybody without their fifth amendment privileges of due process.
Ambach v Norwick, for example, discriminates against foreigners from employment as teachers, despite the protections you believe exist.
For what it's worth, I agree with how I think you're saying things ought to be, but in practice, we can and do enact discriminatory laws against those of certain alienage all the time, and it's rare that those claims in court enjoy strict scrutiny, which puts the standard of review in those protections up for debate. So while I agree on how things ought to be, that's a far cry from how they actually are which, to sum up, is to say that we routinely discriminate against aliens, illegal and legal alike, especially in matters of employment, all the time.
This is why I brought up non-codified rights. Most rational people would agree that a "right to work" is in fact a civil right, but it exists nowhere in the Constitution. The Wagner act bears on this to an extent, but in short, it's clearly a right that all people capable of working should enjoy, despite it not having been codified in the Bill of Rights, which means that its interpretation, however obvious, will not enjoy strict scrutiny, and is not even necessarily going to enjoy intermediate scrutiny, by whatever courts happen to be tasked with its interpretation. Rational basis has, regrettably, upheld far too often in those regards, and is indeed the way of the land.
> enforcement is barred from punishing anybody without their fifth amendment privileges of due process.
Ambach v Norwick, for example, discriminates against foreigners from employment as teachers, despite the protections you believe exist.
For what it's worth, I agree with how I think you're saying things ought to be, but in practice, we can and do enact discriminatory laws against those of certain alienage all the time, and it's rare that those claims in court enjoy strict scrutiny, which puts the standard of review in those protections up for debate. So while I agree on how things ought to be, that's a far cry from how they actually are which, to sum up, is to say that we routinely discriminate against aliens, illegal and legal alike, especially in matters of employment, all the time.
This is why I brought up non-codified rights. Most rational people would agree that a "right to work" is in fact a civil right, but it exists nowhere in the Constitution. The Wagner act bears on this to an extent, but in short, it's clearly a right that all people capable of working should enjoy, despite it not having been codified in the Bill of Rights, which means that its interpretation, however obvious, will not enjoy strict scrutiny, and is not even necessarily going to enjoy intermediate scrutiny, by whatever courts happen to be tasked with its interpretation. Rational basis has, regrettably, upheld far too often in those regards, and is indeed the way of the land.
It is really scary that some people need a 300 page report to realize that foreigners have privacy rights, too.
Don't worry about the "inequality", they've always been spying on US citizens too, and still are!
In fact, US citizens are their priority, because they're the ones the US government needs to control and keep in check to maintain their power.
In fact, US citizens are their priority, because they're the ones the US government needs to control and keep in check to maintain their power.
It's been my opinion that we need to put our policies where our mouth so often is here (we're still calling ourselves a beacon of personal liberty and freedom, right?) and stop acting like the rest of the world is made up of nothing but potential enemy combatants. The tone of our relationship with the rest of the world is significantly marred when we don't show basic respect even for our allies (not that I think our enemies should necessarily be fair game for these kinds of tactics either - not going to "win hearts and minds" that way).
Privacy, in general, to me, seems to only go as far as an individuals/groups ability/will to assert it "technically".
In physical space, as you may have seen in the ACLU parody video of the NSA, people threw/swatted at the cameras and "santas" that were snooping (a "technical" solution, not an "theory" one [they did not try to reason with the santas to stop doing what they were doing before they resorted to the "technical" solution, from what we were led to believe]).
Most people are not doing that in the realm of the internet, so to me the video was interesting because at the end, it's a call to action in basis of a "theory" that made no mention to the "technical" that could be at ones disposal.
How can one use only reason with someone/organization/government who asserts their power over another through technicalities ignored by those who lack the ability/will to assert their privacy through the technicalities available and discussed many times over on places like HN from information accessible online?
In physical space, as you may have seen in the ACLU parody video of the NSA, people threw/swatted at the cameras and "santas" that were snooping (a "technical" solution, not an "theory" one [they did not try to reason with the santas to stop doing what they were doing before they resorted to the "technical" solution, from what we were led to believe]).
Most people are not doing that in the realm of the internet, so to me the video was interesting because at the end, it's a call to action in basis of a "theory" that made no mention to the "technical" that could be at ones disposal.
How can one use only reason with someone/organization/government who asserts their power over another through technicalities ignored by those who lack the ability/will to assert their privacy through the technicalities available and discussed many times over on places like HN from information accessible online?
It's kindof funny, the presumption is that there's exactly one government in the world who is not allowed to spy on any given person, every other government is fair game.
Also, peace on earth, pls.
NSA surveillance (and hacking!) is pevasive of all that is digital. They even directly attack private individuals in Europe, considering them as worthless pawns. (Don't believe me? Google "Belgacom Hack")
To those of us living in countries that had to struggle to rid themselves of the surveillance state, this _feels_ like enemy action.
So why should people over here perceive a country that has declared them fair game to its large security apparatus be anything other than an enemy?
Do not underestimate the consequences of the NSA actions. The mistrust that is growing right now could undo important parts of the digital globalization.