Ask HN: College Graduate, Job Prospects
18 comments
the market just sucks now. Only 20% of college graduates found jobs this year, compared to 80% last year. So at this point there are 4 times more competition, than usual. And since most companies are firing instead of hiring you also have additional competition from older people who lost their jobs.
You need to expand your search,I bet right now you are looking for positions close to home. Forget that, you are young, you don't need to be tied down, send resumes all over the country. Also hit up your friend network, and have your parents do the same for you. When you are starting out, nothing really separates you from all other applicants, at least this way you'll get some additional consideration and might find out about jobs before others.
And don't put all your eggs in one basket, use your spare time to work on other projects which you can then add to your resume. Face it, experience is very important in today's market, having projects you can point to on your resume will put you ahead of your competition. + who knows maybe one of those projects will turn into a business.
You need to expand your search,I bet right now you are looking for positions close to home. Forget that, you are young, you don't need to be tied down, send resumes all over the country. Also hit up your friend network, and have your parents do the same for you. When you are starting out, nothing really separates you from all other applicants, at least this way you'll get some additional consideration and might find out about jobs before others.
And don't put all your eggs in one basket, use your spare time to work on other projects which you can then add to your resume. Face it, experience is very important in today's market, having projects you can point to on your resume will put you ahead of your competition. + who knows maybe one of those projects will turn into a business.
I think you ought to be able to write your own resume. People hiring you would expect at least that much. Why in the world would you want to work for another company if you already have your own (and it's running well)?
Not sure where to put my reply, but this place seems okay. Write your own resume - when I started college and was looking for internships, I relied heavily on "professionals" (resume writers and critiquers in the school's career services department) as well as the advice of numerous people who never seemed to have trouble finding jobs.
I still got no interviews. It wasn't until I decided to really think through the logic of resume reading and writing that I finally settled on my own style that, in my final internship in college, scored me 15 interviews in 2 weeks.
You sound like you have plenty of experience but are failing at getting noticed. This is not a bad position (beats the opposite: lots of attention on paltry skill set). A couple basic pointers I've found useful:
- make it look different. I use a sans-serif font unlike most people, who go for the elegant, professional serif fonts. I also throw my name is large bold letters at the top (much bigger than most templates would tell you).
- make your way past HR. Many recruiters in HR only scan for keywords, not being devs themselves. Cater to their whims by starting off with a litany of keywords. I start my resume with a large (but well spaced) list of languages, major libraries, databases, etc. I have gone to many interviews where the only thing highlighted on my resume were from the keyword section.
- whitespace. So many people adhere strictly to the one-page (or two-page) rule, and somehow think this is license to cram the page. If your resume is a chore to read, it wont' get read. Give lots of spacing - information density has an upper limit before the brain gives up.
As for job searching in general, I've found the following useful for both internships and post-college first-job situations:
- Find the name of the recruiter. Have no shame in doing this, especially at large companies. A good way in that I'm fond of using is thinking hard about the position, and coming up with (good, non-obvious) questions that you may have about the job. Then, hit up the company and don't stop until you've reached the recruiter-in-charge and had your questions answered. This shows enthusiasm, initiative, and most of all your name is now anchored - which greatly increases your odds of making it into the "interview" pile (or get rescued from the "trash" pile after the fact).
- Once you have the recruiter's name, write a personalized cover letter with your resume. Use the recruiter's name. This will stand out greatly amongst the sea of "Dear Recruiter" lines, or even no cover letter at all.
- Go to career fairs. Your odds of success increase dramatically if the recruiter can tie your resume to a face. If there is some spark of recognition you will likely end up in the "interview" pile. Don't just make smalltalk at these things, genuinely try to grok what the company does, ask intelligent questions to both engineers and HR, and make an impression.
I still got no interviews. It wasn't until I decided to really think through the logic of resume reading and writing that I finally settled on my own style that, in my final internship in college, scored me 15 interviews in 2 weeks.
You sound like you have plenty of experience but are failing at getting noticed. This is not a bad position (beats the opposite: lots of attention on paltry skill set). A couple basic pointers I've found useful:
- make it look different. I use a sans-serif font unlike most people, who go for the elegant, professional serif fonts. I also throw my name is large bold letters at the top (much bigger than most templates would tell you).
- make your way past HR. Many recruiters in HR only scan for keywords, not being devs themselves. Cater to their whims by starting off with a litany of keywords. I start my resume with a large (but well spaced) list of languages, major libraries, databases, etc. I have gone to many interviews where the only thing highlighted on my resume were from the keyword section.
- whitespace. So many people adhere strictly to the one-page (or two-page) rule, and somehow think this is license to cram the page. If your resume is a chore to read, it wont' get read. Give lots of spacing - information density has an upper limit before the brain gives up.
As for job searching in general, I've found the following useful for both internships and post-college first-job situations:
- Find the name of the recruiter. Have no shame in doing this, especially at large companies. A good way in that I'm fond of using is thinking hard about the position, and coming up with (good, non-obvious) questions that you may have about the job. Then, hit up the company and don't stop until you've reached the recruiter-in-charge and had your questions answered. This shows enthusiasm, initiative, and most of all your name is now anchored - which greatly increases your odds of making it into the "interview" pile (or get rescued from the "trash" pile after the fact).
- Once you have the recruiter's name, write a personalized cover letter with your resume. Use the recruiter's name. This will stand out greatly amongst the sea of "Dear Recruiter" lines, or even no cover letter at all.
- Go to career fairs. Your odds of success increase dramatically if the recruiter can tie your resume to a face. If there is some spark of recognition you will likely end up in the "interview" pile. Don't just make smalltalk at these things, genuinely try to grok what the company does, ask intelligent questions to both engineers and HR, and make an impression.
Are you still in PA? I'll be no help there but we are looking for a junior software guy/gal. (Downtown SF - small consulting company) email in profile...
[deleted]
Fellow Penn Stater here. The IST program, in its infinite wisdom has its strengths and weaknesses. One issue that you may have acknowledged already, especially in such economic times is the lack of awareness about the IST program and its various tracks amongst the business circle that recruits from Penn State.
Since you graduated from the SysDev track, you need to moderately differentiate yourself from the other "consultant" crowd, to a level that exudes that you have sufficient skills to undertake CS related projects. Having Open Source contributions on your resume may also be beneficial, since people can gauge your technical prowess.
Lastly, I would advise that you use COMPASS (the internal job hunt site) and the Career Services on campus extensively. They are there to help you specifically in a situation like this.
[If you wish, you may send me a copy of your resume and I may be able to float it in my circle]
Since you graduated from the SysDev track, you need to moderately differentiate yourself from the other "consultant" crowd, to a level that exudes that you have sufficient skills to undertake CS related projects. Having Open Source contributions on your resume may also be beneficial, since people can gauge your technical prowess.
Lastly, I would advise that you use COMPASS (the internal job hunt site) and the Career Services on campus extensively. They are there to help you specifically in a situation like this.
[If you wish, you may send me a copy of your resume and I may be able to float it in my circle]
Unless your resume is simply horrific, it should only really keep you from getting interviews at the large companies with a wall of HR before anyone technical will be aware of you. For most companies, you should pay much more attention to your cover letter, which will matter much more to alot of people than where you went to school and what your GPA was.
Also, this may not be the common experience, but I had much better results from the job boards of smaller tech sites than any major job sites. Better in terms of interest from both sides of the table.
Also, this may not be the common experience, but I had much better results from the job boards of smaller tech sites than any major job sites. Better in terms of interest from both sides of the table.
I've got a similar question (I'm a guy in a similar place to cmpeters), so as opposed to opening another HN on a very similar vein.
Like cmpeters, I'm a recent college grad (BEng in Computer Engineering) from a top school in my Western English-speaking non-American country. I've got a good education, a respectable resume, a terrible GPA, and few peer networking contacts (I found people in my program to be boring, so didn't hang out with them). I also can't find a job; most companies that I get through to say - truth or not - that they're in a hiring freeze for the next six months.
I mentioned that I've got no in-industry peer networking contacts, but I have a few very good ones in politics. Specifically, I've got a possible job offer through one to be one of the two or three advance guys for a very senior national politician. It would be a year of traveling around the country with them, likely including an election, and would be incredibly exciting.
My worry is this: if I take this job for a year, will I be aged-out of most positions when I get back? I'm currently a little over 26, and if I do this for a year, would be 27 and a bit when I would be done. Going back into tech/software at that point, I worry that I would be over the normal age for a junior developer position, but would lack the professional experience to be hired as an intermediate one.
I'd like to take this ops job, but worry that I'd be somewhat screwing over my future career. Any thoughts?
Like cmpeters, I'm a recent college grad (BEng in Computer Engineering) from a top school in my Western English-speaking non-American country. I've got a good education, a respectable resume, a terrible GPA, and few peer networking contacts (I found people in my program to be boring, so didn't hang out with them). I also can't find a job; most companies that I get through to say - truth or not - that they're in a hiring freeze for the next six months.
I mentioned that I've got no in-industry peer networking contacts, but I have a few very good ones in politics. Specifically, I've got a possible job offer through one to be one of the two or three advance guys for a very senior national politician. It would be a year of traveling around the country with them, likely including an election, and would be incredibly exciting.
My worry is this: if I take this job for a year, will I be aged-out of most positions when I get back? I'm currently a little over 26, and if I do this for a year, would be 27 and a bit when I would be done. Going back into tech/software at that point, I worry that I would be over the normal age for a junior developer position, but would lack the professional experience to be hired as an intermediate one.
I'd like to take this ops job, but worry that I'd be somewhat screwing over my future career. Any thoughts?
I'm not sure if things are different in your country - business cultures vary from city to city. In Boston, it'd be harder but not impossible. In one of my old employers, we hired a guy in his early thirties who'd been a sysop in the military, serving a tour of duty in Iraq. He had no relevant work experience and his technical skills were weak, but he was taking programming courses at a local community college and seemed eager to learn and really excited about the job. Turned out to be a pretty good hire too, as he was eager to learn and excited about the job.
If you do this, the burden will be on you to show why you want to jump into programming at such a late age and why you haven't done so already. People don't change on a dime, so your interviewers will ask you about this. (In my last job hunt, I got questions about why I was looking for a position in Mountain View when I lived in Boston, and why I wanted to work for a big company when all my previous experience was with startups.) But if you have good reasons for this (where good != "I wanted to make more money" (outside of the financial industry) or "I really wasn't any good at my last job, so I'll try something new"), most people are quite willing to give you a fresh start.
If you do this, the burden will be on you to show why you want to jump into programming at such a late age and why you haven't done so already. People don't change on a dime, so your interviewers will ask you about this. (In my last job hunt, I got questions about why I was looking for a position in Mountain View when I lived in Boston, and why I wanted to work for a big company when all my previous experience was with startups.) But if you have good reasons for this (where good != "I wanted to make more money" (outside of the financial industry) or "I really wasn't any good at my last job, so I'll try something new"), most people are quite willing to give you a fresh start.
Did you try job boards like 37signals job board, TC, ReadWriteWeb board, Mashable, etc?
Also, there was a recent post on HN about a sample resume template. It's here http://sampleresumetemplate.net/ (also there are some useful links in the comments here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=646277)
You could use that as a sample. Like everyone else suggests, it's always better to write your own. Each person has their own way of writing stuff. For all you know, the way you write/design your resume might be a lot better than using some other fella's template.
P.S: I don't believe in standard resume structures. I feel that's a bit stupid. The standard structure in my place has fields such as father's name, mother's name, religion and all the crap which your next boss doesn't have to care about.
Also, there was a recent post on HN about a sample resume template. It's here http://sampleresumetemplate.net/ (also there are some useful links in the comments here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=646277)
You could use that as a sample. Like everyone else suggests, it's always better to write your own. Each person has their own way of writing stuff. For all you know, the way you write/design your resume might be a lot better than using some other fella's template.
P.S: I don't believe in standard resume structures. I feel that's a bit stupid. The standard structure in my place has fields such as father's name, mother's name, religion and all the crap which your next boss doesn't have to care about.
Thanks all for your quick and helpful responses.
To those who offered help proof-reading, referrals, etc I appreciate your generosity and will undoubtably take you up on your offers. I'll reply to each individually.
To those who offered help proof-reading, referrals, etc I appreciate your generosity and will undoubtably take you up on your offers. I'll reply to each individually.
Welcome, cmpeters. It's always nice to hear from long time lurkers.
Sounds like it's time for you to kick it into high gear. Tell prospective employers and customers (I wouldn't rule out continuing your business) what you've told us here. Be completely sincere and open. Tell them what you already know (skills, languages) and more importantly, what you've accomplished. Provided links whenever possible. Let your work speak for itself.
Use multiple strategies to make connections. In addition to the usual job boards, start networking if you haven't already done so. Always carry copies of your resume and/or business card/portfolio. Follow up, follow up, follow up. If you don't get a positive response, find out why. It count be a hundred reasons; until you ask, you'll never know. Get additional feedback on your resume from those who you've given it to. Revise and rework as needed. And be prepared to write a one-off resume targeted for a specific job. That may help.
It's a tough market right now. The jobs don't always go to the best candidate. Sometimes they go to those who get out there and take them. Go for it. Good luck and keep us posted.
Sounds like it's time for you to kick it into high gear. Tell prospective employers and customers (I wouldn't rule out continuing your business) what you've told us here. Be completely sincere and open. Tell them what you already know (skills, languages) and more importantly, what you've accomplished. Provided links whenever possible. Let your work speak for itself.
Use multiple strategies to make connections. In addition to the usual job boards, start networking if you haven't already done so. Always carry copies of your resume and/or business card/portfolio. Follow up, follow up, follow up. If you don't get a positive response, find out why. It count be a hundred reasons; until you ask, you'll never know. Get additional feedback on your resume from those who you've given it to. Revise and rework as needed. And be prepared to write a one-off resume targeted for a specific job. That may help.
It's a tough market right now. The jobs don't always go to the best candidate. Sometimes they go to those who get out there and take them. Go for it. Good luck and keep us posted.
>write a one-off resume targeted for a specific job
I heard it can be good to have a "full resume" with everything in it, and then for each job you cut out the irrelevant parts. This keeps you from forgetting important job-specific parts that were previously edited out of your generic resume.
I heard it can be good to have a "full resume" with everything in it, and then for each job you cut out the irrelevant parts. This keeps you from forgetting important job-specific parts that were previously edited out of your generic resume.
I think there may be other forums where you can get more feedback. Check the XKCD forums (http://echochamber.me) maybe?
In general, though, your education is essentially irrelevant compared to the fact that you've been building websites. So I'd make the degree one line at the bottom of the resume, and put your portfolio front and center.
scscsc is right - you're getting a design job. Show off your own design skills.
In general, though, your education is essentially irrelevant compared to the fact that you've been building websites. So I'd make the degree one line at the bottom of the resume, and put your portfolio front and center.
scscsc is right - you're getting a design job. Show off your own design skills.
you need anything that gives you a competitive advantage.
1. getting professional help on writing your resume is a big plus. there is a huge disconnect between the things we programmers think is good to put on a resume and the things that people who read your resume think is important. Most things get ignored, other things get the wrong emphasis, basically the wrong things get communicated unless your resume is very carefully done.
2. interview coaching will help you a lot too, for when you do get an interview.
3. the correct attitude. you seem focused and have a good idea of what you are looking for, so that is a big plus. also keep your cool. the minute you begin your appearance goes from eager to desperate, it's over.
I personally know the author of a book called "Excuse me, your job is waiting" (http://www.amazon.com/Excuse-Me-Your-Job-Waiting/dp/15717452...). She helped me write my resume and it made a difference. Companies are hiring now, they are just being really picky.
1. getting professional help on writing your resume is a big plus. there is a huge disconnect between the things we programmers think is good to put on a resume and the things that people who read your resume think is important. Most things get ignored, other things get the wrong emphasis, basically the wrong things get communicated unless your resume is very carefully done.
2. interview coaching will help you a lot too, for when you do get an interview.
3. the correct attitude. you seem focused and have a good idea of what you are looking for, so that is a big plus. also keep your cool. the minute you begin your appearance goes from eager to desperate, it's over.
I personally know the author of a book called "Excuse me, your job is waiting" (http://www.amazon.com/Excuse-Me-Your-Job-Waiting/dp/15717452...). She helped me write my resume and it made a difference. Companies are hiring now, they are just being really picky.
If youre willing to move I may be able to help you. http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/eng/1228872309.html
I don't have experience, but if I was in your place, I would build an Open Source software with few mates, this will demonstrate and proof your competence
Monster.com's resume service was horrible, at least in 2005. It did give me some good ideas to build off of, though.
Feel free to send it my way - I'll be happy to proofread it for you (email's in the profile).
[deleted]
how well do you know java? i know of an opening in nyc.
Writing the resume is not a rocket science, you should be able to do it on your own. Although, you may need someone to proofread it.
Long time reader, first time poster.
I’m having a bit of a dilemma and I was hoping that by posting here I would receive some valuable advice/tips to my situation.
I am a recent college graduate struggling to find an entry-level software development position. I just finished my B.S. in Information Sciences & Technology - Information Systems Development with two minors; Computer Science and Business Administration from Penn State University.
My goal is to obtain a software development position; specifically Web Development. I have several years of internship experience starting back as early as my junior year of high school. My most recent employment has been with my own software company that I founded, RADO Consulting LLC. I worked and developed the company while attending college. But I never had enough time to grow the company beyond doing simple, one-off website projects for small, local companies. I think at this point the best career move would be to take a position with another development company where I can work with more experienced developers; learning and improving my development skills.
So my dilemma is that I can’t seem to find a job. I’ve had one interview in 4 months and no other leads. I’m beginning to think that maybe my resume needs some work and that I might even hire a professional to write my resume for me. Has anyone had success with doing such a thing? Monster.com offers a service, although somewhat pricey, it seems to be very professional and of high quality. I found a few other companies that offer the service, but nothing that really impressed me. What are your thoughts?