IFit: "No applicants from Brazil, please."(careers.stackoverflow.com)
careers.stackoverflow.com
IFit: "No applicants from Brazil, please."
http://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs/37299/web-developer-html-css-ifit?a=JungU8qQ
25 comments
Go to Canada, you will be in a much better position in a country that really encourages immigration for skilled professionals.
From what I've researched, the average worker make around $40k(canadian dolars) and it's about my market average.
Canadians pay around 40% of taxes(not a liberal country, right?).
I'm still in a way better position here in Brazil(in income). I think what is going to change is the lifestyle... but I'm not looking for some lifestyle, I'm young and want to work hard and conquer a lot.
Canadians pay around 40% of taxes(not a liberal country, right?).
I'm still in a way better position here in Brazil(in income). I think what is going to change is the lifestyle... but I'm not looking for some lifestyle, I'm young and want to work hard and conquer a lot.
You have to think what those 40% in taxes mean. What is the return? Good public health care, decent educational system, good public safety, good social security.
Those are things the US don't give to you, so it is an illusion thinking that in the US you make more money. Taxes there are quite high depending on the state you are going to live. A friend of mine moved from Rio to Massachusetts and told me there are a lot of taxes and he pays around 25% in taxes plus health care, private pension plan an so on. In the end 50% of his salary is for these things.
I moved to the UK this year and I make about the same as I did in Rio. I can say that I have a much better life now than before. Money here means a lot more than in Brazil.
If you want, we can take this conversation privately.
Those are things the US don't give to you, so it is an illusion thinking that in the US you make more money. Taxes there are quite high depending on the state you are going to live. A friend of mine moved from Rio to Massachusetts and told me there are a lot of taxes and he pays around 25% in taxes plus health care, private pension plan an so on. In the end 50% of his salary is for these things.
I moved to the UK this year and I make about the same as I did in Rio. I can say that I have a much better life now than before. Money here means a lot more than in Brazil.
If you want, we can take this conversation privately.
They used to. Recently, there have been many changes in their work permit/LMO process.
A company who wants to hire foreign citizens now need to first put out an ad for 1 month for the position in a Canadian job board seeking Canadian citizens. Once they are done with it, they have to apply for a Labor Market Opinion which takes 10-12 weeks. After receiving a positive LMO, they can apply for the work permit which takes 1-2 months more.
A company who wants to hire foreign citizens now need to first put out an ad for 1 month for the position in a Canadian job board seeking Canadian citizens. Once they are done with it, they have to apply for a Labor Market Opinion which takes 10-12 weeks. After receiving a positive LMO, they can apply for the work permit which takes 1-2 months more.
Or maybe it happened because the CEO or somebody got burned out by the Brazilian Government. Unfortunately, that's about as likely as some random person getting a specific prejudice against us.
>But, we also love unlimited soda, video games, and luvsacs.
Unlimited soda? You sure love fitness.
Unlimited soda? You sure love fitness.
that stood out for me, too.
Of course... Utah, so no coffee, tea, or beer.
Of course... Utah, so no coffee, tea, or beer.
> Utah, so no coffee, tea, or beer.
Beer I understand, but coffee, tea? Why would those be excluded?
Beer I understand, but coffee, tea? Why would those be excluded?
As I understand it Mormons don't consume anything caffeinated.
That's actually not true. The religion says that they're not to consume "hot drinks", although I think they all take that to mean tea and coffee. Some of them assume it's talking about caffeinated drinks, but the church officially is not opposed to caffeine or soda.
IFit appears to be located in Logan, Utah, which means that they presumably fall under US employment law. In which case, they probably want to consult their lawyers about national origin discrimination: http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/nationalorigin.cfm
TD;DR: Risk of lawsuits, consult a professional.
TD;DR: Risk of lawsuits, consult a professional.
I believe the law refers to US citizens of foreign national origin while iFit is referring to Brazilian citizens.
From the supplied link:
> The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) makes it illegal for an employer to discriminate with respect to hiring, firing, or recruitment or referral for a fee, based upon an individual's citizenship or immigration status. The law prohibits employers from hiring only U.S. citizens or lawful permanent residents unless required to do so by law, regulation or government contract.
Also, Why didn't they say "Brazilian citizens"? Why did they use the ambiguous "applicants from Brazil"?
> The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) makes it illegal for an employer to discriminate with respect to hiring, firing, or recruitment or referral for a fee, based upon an individual's citizenship or immigration status. The law prohibits employers from hiring only U.S. citizens or lawful permanent residents unless required to do so by law, regulation or government contract.
Also, Why didn't they say "Brazilian citizens"? Why did they use the ambiguous "applicants from Brazil"?
I think they are referring to applicants specifically located in Brazil. I'm not sure if that would qualify as discriminatory if they are using the term as a geographic qualifier as opposed to an ethnic one. I'm also not sure if that law even applies if they are recruiting possible international employees. (It certainly would though if there was a US based Brazilian citizen applying).
They should probably clarify the posting.
They should probably clarify the posting.
It would be reasonable to assume that instead of having some inexplicable prejudice against our Brazilian brethren, they are simply tired of getting a thousand emails from shitty off-shore chop shops. It's a very real problem when you post any "low-tech" position.
Plausible motivations to deny applications from Brazil:
- If the Brazilian is working remotely, sending money to Brazil is costly and a huge hassle for the employer.
- The company had a previous bad experience with a Brazilian employee
Other not so serious reasons
- Some Brazilians are loud, touchy-feely and unaware of the personal-space concept, therefore they are annoying for most non-Brazilians.
- Most of this company's HR is from Argentina
- If the Brazilian is working remotely, sending money to Brazil is costly and a huge hassle for the employer.
- The company had a previous bad experience with a Brazilian employee
Other not so serious reasons
- Some Brazilians are loud, touchy-feely and unaware of the personal-space concept, therefore they are annoying for most non-Brazilians.
- Most of this company's HR is from Argentina
None of those are true.
I've been working for US companies from .br for the past 3yrs and:
– Sending money to .br is not a hassle for the employer... it's as simple as making a deposit. And it lands in any .br bank in less than 3hrs.
– Could be that they had bad experiences, but to rule out the whole country is idiotic to say the least.
– So are italians and they are still welcome. Stop being self prejudicial about your country.
– Yes, let's perpetrate the stereotype by adding another stereotype.
I assume you're Brazilian and you hate the fact that you are. You should think twice before posting bullshit like this on the internet.
I assume you're Brazilian and you hate the fact that you are. You should think twice before posting bullshit like this on the internet.
I have nearly 10 years experience with international payments to and from Brazil. And although most times, it's as simple as you said, when it comes for largers amounts (i.e. USD 5K+) it is indeed a hassle.
Yes, I'm Brazilian but I do not hate the fact I'm one. I just don't have pointless and blinding patriotic feelings. Go see the world, expand your horizons, then let me know if you still think that Brazil is really as "maravilhoso" as you like to think.
Regarding the stereotypes, I had made it clear that those points where "not so serious", but since you seem to have taken them serious: Yes, some Brazilians are too touchy-feely and that's not a stereotype, that's a fact. Some people appreciate that type of personality, others don't.
And finally, here's the actual response from iFit => https://twitter.com/iFit/status/394852154680172544
Yes, I'm Brazilian but I do not hate the fact I'm one. I just don't have pointless and blinding patriotic feelings. Go see the world, expand your horizons, then let me know if you still think that Brazil is really as "maravilhoso" as you like to think.
Regarding the stereotypes, I had made it clear that those points where "not so serious", but since you seem to have taken them serious: Yes, some Brazilians are too touchy-feely and that's not a stereotype, that's a fact. Some people appreciate that type of personality, others don't.
And finally, here's the actual response from iFit => https://twitter.com/iFit/status/394852154680172544
Brazil is not near as "maravilhoso" as we want it to be.
But it's far from the worse place you could have been born into. So have just a little gratitude. You could be living in Kenya or Haiti right now.
Disseminating false stereotypes will not help you, neither your country friends. So if you don't have anything useful to say, just stay quiet. It's not worth the karma.
I don't care if you have 10+ years experience with international payments, your word is not enough. Show me some source.
As even yourself pointed, it's not about money transfer/payment, is about draconian labour law. So don't make a fool of yourself.
But it's far from the worse place you could have been born into. So have just a little gratitude. You could be living in Kenya or Haiti right now.
Disseminating false stereotypes will not help you, neither your country friends. So if you don't have anything useful to say, just stay quiet. It's not worth the karma.
I don't care if you have 10+ years experience with international payments, your word is not enough. Show me some source.
As even yourself pointed, it's not about money transfer/payment, is about draconian labour law. So don't make a fool of yourself.
I was the one who submitted the link originally. Unfortunately, one cannot submit a link and a description. The intention was not to bash IFit (and that's why I submitted here and not to, say, Reddit).
IFit probably has a point, as brazilian labor laws sure are draconian. As someone who has worked with overseas companies, I know something about it:
A person cannot (legally) receive money from foreign companies. The way to get around this is to open a company (even if it consists of a single person). Also, a contract between the two companies is required - though in my experience, even a NDA will suffice.
It might be the case that IFit cannot legally say, in the US, that they are hiring someone from Brazil, as they would be actually dealing with a proxy company, even if it is the sole purpose of the company's existence.
I don't think there are any extra costs to the employer (maybe taxes?) and SWIFT transfers work fine.
IFit probably has a point, as brazilian labor laws sure are draconian. As someone who has worked with overseas companies, I know something about it:
A person cannot (legally) receive money from foreign companies. The way to get around this is to open a company (even if it consists of a single person). Also, a contract between the two companies is required - though in my experience, even a NDA will suffice.
It might be the case that IFit cannot legally say, in the US, that they are hiring someone from Brazil, as they would be actually dealing with a proxy company, even if it is the sole purpose of the company's existence.
I don't think there are any extra costs to the employer (maybe taxes?) and SWIFT transfers work fine.
I would only hope that the posting is referring to Brazilian applicants who want to work remotely out of Brazil. Having said that, this job posting is very very ambiguous and can be interpreted in many ways. Some of my interpretations:
1. We do not want you to apply if you are Brazilian citizen. Remote or on-site . <Invites Lawsuits for discrimination>
2. "(no applicants from Brazil please). We need brilliant people ".
Brazilians are not brilliant. <I know I am going a little too far on this one but still>
3. (no applicants from Brazil please). Qualifications: Are you smart ?
Brazilians are not smart. we don't want you
May be someone should let SO know and ask them to fix this posting.
EDIT: And SO has already edited it out. But the real question still remains. What was the motive behind such requirement ? Simply deleting the text means that SO probably enforced it on the employer. What would be interesting is to see if any brazilians apply to this job now.
1. We do not want you to apply if you are Brazilian citizen. Remote or on-site . <Invites Lawsuits for discrimination>
2. "(no applicants from Brazil please). We need brilliant people ".
Brazilians are not brilliant. <I know I am going a little too far on this one but still>
3. (no applicants from Brazil please). Qualifications: Are you smart ?
Brazilians are not smart. we don't want you
May be someone should let SO know and ask them to fix this posting.
EDIT: And SO has already edited it out. But the real question still remains. What was the motive behind such requirement ? Simply deleting the text means that SO probably enforced it on the employer. What would be interesting is to see if any brazilians apply to this job now.
As a Brazilian, I would love to hear from them why.
My guess is that it's expensive to send a MBP + second monitor to Brazil or the price to refund someone is just too expensive.
I you are a Brazilian who wants to work overseas, try Europe. US immigration laws are very complicated and expensive. Some European countries, like Czech Republic are more permissive.
My guess is that it's expensive to send a MBP + second monitor to Brazil or the price to refund someone is just too expensive.
I you are a Brazilian who wants to work overseas, try Europe. US immigration laws are very complicated and expensive. Some European countries, like Czech Republic are more permissive.
[deleted](1)
One of my companies has a remote worker who lives in Brazil. Dude gets an incredible amount of solid work done.
On the face of it, this is quite clearly illegal discrimination on the basis of the prospective employee's country of origin: http://www.justice.gov/crt/legalinfo/natorigin.htm
If you're from Brazil and have work authorization to work in the US, any employment lawyer would be very excited to hear from you. The company responsible is quite likely liable for substantial fines, not to mention the principle of the matter.
If you're from Brazil and have work authorization to work in the US, any employment lawyer would be very excited to hear from you. The company responsible is quite likely liable for substantial fines, not to mention the principle of the matter.
Well, since they allow remote workers I think they are referring to remote Brazilian workers, but you are right if they are discriminating against local workers as well.
What's the difference between remote Brazilian workers and remote Peruvian workers?
It could be something specific to Brazilian employment or finance law that affects remote workers based there. Perhaps the company is afraid of somehow having a tax nexus there, e.g. (perhaps, and this is just a theory) because they're already doing some sort of activity in Brazil and are nervous they are getting close to whatever standard Brazil has for tax presence.
That would explain why they are specifically concerned about Brazil and not, say, Peru or Singapore or anyplace else. It might be that they have assets in Brazil that they are concerned about getting caught up in a tax or labor dispute.
That would explain why they are specifically concerned about Brazil and not, say, Peru or Singapore or anyplace else. It might be that they have assets in Brazil that they are concerned about getting caught up in a tax or labor dispute.
[deleted](1)
We (SO Careers) are aware and are working on it.
The message this sends to me as a potential hire is that they don't know how to identify a good candidate, which immediately puts me off applying for the role.
guys; there's no real reason brazil is a country that has some problem no other country has. stop producing your personal bugbears against brazil as justification.
the only logical explanation here is that they're a bit dumb, had a bad experience with a brazillian (or group of) and decided to ban the whole country.
this says more about ifit than it does about brazillians.
the only logical explanation here is that they're a bit dumb, had a bad experience with a brazillian (or group of) and decided to ban the whole country.
this says more about ifit than it does about brazillians.
The most easy way to pay a Brazilian freelancer is using Paypal because just transferring some money for an account has so many bureaucracy, due the brazilian laws. And get money from paypal isn't a good idea from my experience... So i think that the reason is really the difficulty to get fit in brazil labor laws ..
[deleted](1)
Pro tip: you can safely ignore whole classes of applicants, that way you don't come off as a douche. I probably won't ever work in a non-functional language, but my resume doesn't say "no javashops, please". Most javashops don't consider themselves to be javashops anyway.
Found their justification on Twitter
https://twitter.com/iFit/status/394852154680172544
iFit said: "due to Brazilian labor laws, our corporation will not allow us to hire from Brazil."
iFit said: "due to Brazilian labor laws, our corporation will not allow us to hire from Brazil."
This is bullshit. The Brazillian labor law is not that draconian. How it would be with Sweden? Italy ?(which Brazil's law is inspired)
This is bullshit, these guys say this so no one could fine about discrimination.
This is bullshit, these guys say this so no one could fine about discrimination.
Why such prohibition?
Maybe it's to do with Brazilian labor laws.
They are very pro-employee.
It's very difficult to sack somebody etc.
Perhaps someone from Brazil could enlighten us further?
They are very pro-employee.
It's very difficult to sack somebody etc.
Perhaps someone from Brazil could enlighten us further?
I'm Brazilian. It's not difficult at all to fire someone from a company. You just have to give him a 30-days notice or, if you really want the employee out of the company RIGHT NOW, pay for one more month of work as if the employee was still there for those 30 days.
Also there's a small fine to pay, relative to the time the employee worked in your company. It's not really expensive. For every year the guy worked there, you pay him for almost 2 weeks of work (our law says 40% of a month's salary, I'm just rounding it to "almost two weeks of work"). It's like the compensation that some US companies give when firing someone, but in here there's a law enforcing it (in a low value).
But the main thing is: working for a company outside Brazil he loses almost all of the protection of the law. Not because it's illegal, it's just that our standard employment laws are for Brazilian companies. When working for companies outside Brazil we usually start our own company and just sign a service contract.
Also there's a small fine to pay, relative to the time the employee worked in your company. It's not really expensive. For every year the guy worked there, you pay him for almost 2 weeks of work (our law says 40% of a month's salary, I'm just rounding it to "almost two weeks of work"). It's like the compensation that some US companies give when firing someone, but in here there's a law enforcing it (in a low value).
But the main thing is: working for a company outside Brazil he loses almost all of the protection of the law. Not because it's illegal, it's just that our standard employment laws are for Brazilian companies. When working for companies outside Brazil we usually start our own company and just sign a service contract.
That's a hell of a lot more difficult than most US employers are used to. A lot of companies here offer what is called "at will" employment, which basically rounds down to "we can fire you whenever, you can leave whenever."
See how that wouldn't necessarily align well with the Brazilian way of doing things?
See how that wouldn't necessarily align well with the Brazilian way of doing things?
Yeah but it's not that much different from other non-US countries. I bet it's much harder to fire someone in France or Sweden than in Brazil.
Sweden requires about 3 months notice before firing/leaving companies.
Not always, look up "implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing" which can be a broad exemption to "at will" employment in several States including Utah.
I haven't dealt with this directly in a couple of years, so apologies if I get the details wrong or if laws have changed
In order for a US company to hire a Brazilian employee, it has to be through an established company that has a certain legal status inside of Brazil. If you do not have that status, you have to contract through a local company that has that status. Doing so is extremely expensive, and creates a complex set of legal obligations to the employer.
It is almost never worth doing for just 1 or 2 employees, and so US companies that want to establish a presence in South America often do so entirely inside of or entirely outside of Brazil.
In order for a US company to hire a Brazilian employee, it has to be through an established company that has a certain legal status inside of Brazil. If you do not have that status, you have to contract through a local company that has that status. Doing so is extremely expensive, and creates a complex set of legal obligations to the employer.
It is almost never worth doing for just 1 or 2 employees, and so US companies that want to establish a presence in South America often do so entirely inside of or entirely outside of Brazil.
Well, not if the Brazilian employee has established a company and then both companies can sign a service contract.
The Brazilian employee, through his company, would invoice the US company which would then transfer the money, via wire transfer preferably, so the Brazilian employee can pay his taxes.
I know this because I work for 5 years for an US company as a remote sysadmin.
The Brazilian employee, through his company, would invoice the US company which would then transfer the money, via wire transfer preferably, so the Brazilian employee can pay his taxes.
I know this because I work for 5 years for an US company as a remote sysadmin.
Is that it? That sounds basically the same as the UK, although with redundancy pay in place of the fine.
The US is the outlier in allowing people to be fired for no reason.
The US is the outlier in allowing people to be fired for no reason.
[deleted]
Probably just given as example of remote place that makes it uneconomical to work on-site from time to time.
No idea
[deleted]
iFit response: https://twitter.com/iFit/status/394852154680172544
If their core requirement is defined as precisely as "Are you smart?" I'm not surprised that the job posting contained a discriminating fail as well.
Partially OT: are we still pushing for all this soft fitness stuff?
To be fit you have to: exercise regularly, eat well. Easy to say, but it's a mind shift (try doing 1hr of exercise 3 times a week, see how "easy" is to keep up). Something innovative in this field should push people to change their lifestyle, not to buy yet another fitness product.
To be fit you have to: exercise regularly, eat well. Easy to say, but it's a mind shift (try doing 1hr of exercise 3 times a week, see how "easy" is to keep up). Something innovative in this field should push people to change their lifestyle, not to buy yet another fitness product.
Innovative like sending a drill sergeant to your home or workplace to get you moving? Not only would you get your heart rate up right at the start it'd be hard to say no when there's someone swearing loudly in your ear and making you make your bed perfectly at 5:00am... Once they left you'd be allowed a shower longer than 3 minutes.
The only problem I see with this is that it's not cost effective. Make that cheap* and it would be a great innovation.
* Maybe you could apply random checks on people and not reach out to them every time? That way they are scared 24/7.
* Maybe you could apply random checks on people and not reach out to them every time? That way they are scared 24/7.
Fitness is both difficult to do and simple to think about. Selling fitness products is a great source of money because you can always convince the customer that it's their fault they didn't become fit. Of course it's not what the consumer needs, it's what the business needs.
Do they mean Brazil citizens or applicants of Brazilian origin?
That was fast. They removed the reference from the post.
Why you should have your lawyers vet your job postings.
Maybe this is their exit strategy?
I want to get my H1B soon in order to work in a better environment(and a more liberal economy) and I'm sure this kind of comment won't make anyone's mind as everyone I've worked with in open source with treated me with equal respect.