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Beer
http://annelibby.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/beer/
44 comments
+1 for the proliferation of an ice cream culture.
I'm struggling enough with my weight. Give me a free ice cream culture and I'll be 150 kilos in no time! But seriously, I think this is a good idea as long as there are healthy alternatives.
Agreed, it wasn't so much a real suggestion - health issues are a concern with too much of anything.
I do wonder if there's an extra insurance companies would have to pay if the insurers were aware that alcohol was provided for free on their premises. I tried to have an alcohol at an event and had to get extra insurance, provide security, had hard limits on amounts, and a strict 1 hour time limit.
The moment some SV-tech hipster beer fan gets killed driving home, there's going to be a big public about face. Or maybe not, we seem to be able to sustain a female-hostile culture in the face of plenty of bad events continually cropping up. Maybe alcohol related deaths would be ignored too... ?
I do wonder if there's an extra insurance companies would have to pay if the insurers were aware that alcohol was provided for free on their premises. I tried to have an alcohol at an event and had to get extra insurance, provide security, had hard limits on amounts, and a strict 1 hour time limit.
The moment some SV-tech hipster beer fan gets killed driving home, there's going to be a big public about face. Or maybe not, we seem to be able to sustain a female-hostile culture in the face of plenty of bad events continually cropping up. Maybe alcohol related deaths would be ignored too... ?
My office had an ice cream freezer during the summer and it was a huge hit. Someone even set up a Twitter account that people could follow to know when it was restocked.
I also don't like the taste of beer and have never had a glass of beer I've really enjoyed. If I'm not careful, the aftertaste can actually gag me a little bit.
I've had one or two unpleasant encounters with people who truly can't accept that all beer tastes bad to me. One person went so far as to tell me that you can't dislike beer if you like bread because, you know, beer is just liquid bread. I've since learned to just never bring up my distaste for beer except possibly on forums like this. I'm sure there are more of us out there who just keep quiet about it.
I've had one or two unpleasant encounters with people who truly can't accept that all beer tastes bad to me. One person went so far as to tell me that you can't dislike beer if you like bread because, you know, beer is just liquid bread. I've since learned to just never bring up my distaste for beer except possibly on forums like this. I'm sure there are more of us out there who just keep quiet about it.
but we shouldn't. we need to be more vocal - fighting the 20-something fratboy beer drinking image of 'web developer' is something that needs to be done. I strongly suspect that perhaps outside a few square blocks of san francisco, non-beer-obsessed 30-something+ non fratboys (and girls) are actually the norm for web/software development, but we don't fit the techporn myth.
Don't worry, I'm in a similar boat. I have disliked most beers that I've tried (exceptions: Guinness), and the alcohol that I do enjoy (e.g. scotch) I can really only enjoy about a sip. Or half a sip. Sometimes just the smell.
Bleh. I like that ice cream idea much better.
Bleh. I like that ice cream idea much better.
I learned early on that ingredients alone don't matter so much. My dad doesn't like tomato ketchup, but eats tomatoes - I had to reconcile that quandry when I was about 5 and it's stuck with me ever since.
Why must these things be mutually exclusive. I enjoy good coffee, good beer (I brew as well and own a good coffee tools) good wine too. I love food and checking out new places around town. I can enjoy all of these things with colleagues and co-workers too, a number of whom don't drink, which is perfectly fine with me. Oddly enough I'm not into sweets so ice cream doesn't interest me (though a good gelato is pretty awesome).
I dunno is the "I don't drink" stigma a US thing? The people I know who don't drink in Canada don't seem to have a hard time of it.
Either way I don't see why we can't say to each their own _and_ help those with alcohol issues to get help without judging. Oh and especially call out harassment no matter the reason or cause because no. Too much to ask?
If that is too hard for an organization well then it has some serious room for improvement.
That said, not having beer at work would never be a deal breaker for me.
I dunno is the "I don't drink" stigma a US thing? The people I know who don't drink in Canada don't seem to have a hard time of it.
Either way I don't see why we can't say to each their own _and_ help those with alcohol issues to get help without judging. Oh and especially call out harassment no matter the reason or cause because no. Too much to ask?
If that is too hard for an organization well then it has some serious room for improvement.
That said, not having beer at work would never be a deal breaker for me.
It's not something I face every day or all the time, but by comparison to regular every day life, around tech people and at tech events, it's more pronounced. And it may be a US thing, although I've got a German friend that constantly extols the virtue of fine German beers.
I'm fine with "to each his own", except... I'm not sure having kegs or company-provided beers in the office is an equal-footing sort of thing. Company-supplied alcohol is a tacit endorsement of that, and seems to foster a strange atmosphere at some companies.
I'm fine with "to each his own", except... I'm not sure having kegs or company-provided beers in the office is an equal-footing sort of thing. Company-supplied alcohol is a tacit endorsement of that, and seems to foster a strange atmosphere at some companies.
> I don't understand why companies don't promote an ice cream culture.
That could cause problems too: http://youtu.be/e5i6BHBuqxE?t=2m44s
(Though in fairness, in the video it's Tofutti, not ice cream.)
That could cause problems too: http://youtu.be/e5i6BHBuqxE?t=2m44s
(Though in fairness, in the video it's Tofutti, not ice cream.)
coffee seems like a decent substitute. or rather, cafe culture. which could include a beer, or wine, of course, but widens the options.
I've seen posts on /r/coffee where people's workplaces have half a dozen or more brewing methods available to them, including grinders, espresso machines, and steam wands. If my work had that, you can guarantee I'd have a spreadsheet to track what tastes best to me.
If people harass you or treat you differently for not [drinking/eating/smoking/whatever personal choice] then you know who the assholes of the group are. Call them out.
upvote for ice cream. or anything else
Thank you all. I learned a lot from your comments -- mostly about the diversity of views out there.
Probably not great in the office, but having a nice craft beer shouldn't be discouraged - it opens up the thoughts, creates an aura of relaxation and can promote conversation and creative collaboration pretty damn fast. Not everything must be productive, productive, productive all of the damn time. Creative thoughts are an important part of the ability to execute them. Just relax and have a beer every now and then.
At my prior employer, there was a legend of two guys who wrote the companies email system (before commercial packages were available) in 6 weeks. There method was to hit a pub for 4 hour design sessions every few days, followed by a few days of marathon coding. As soon as they'd get stuck, back to the pub. This was an uber-conservative employer, so beer in the office would have been cause for celebration.
I'm with you that if you're going to have beer in the office, it should be good beer. A trend I've seen lately is scotch at work. It's more an end of the day relaxer than anything else.
I've seen both sides of the argument, and don't have a definitive opinion. If it works, keep doing it. If not, don't. If beer in the office costs you employees, don't have it. If beer in the office cuts your turnover, it's cheaper than hiring new people.
I'm with you that if you're going to have beer in the office, it should be good beer. A trend I've seen lately is scotch at work. It's more an end of the day relaxer than anything else.
I've seen both sides of the argument, and don't have a definitive opinion. If it works, keep doing it. If not, don't. If beer in the office costs you employees, don't have it. If beer in the office cuts your turnover, it's cheaper than hiring new people.
> A trend I've seen lately is scotch at work.
Watching Mad Men I always wondered whatever happened to strong beverages in the offices. Was it cultural? Have people decided that drinking during workday is faux pas? Was it some campaign against alcohol, similar to what happened to tobacco?
Watching Mad Men I always wondered whatever happened to strong beverages in the offices. Was it cultural? Have people decided that drinking during workday is faux pas? Was it some campaign against alcohol, similar to what happened to tobacco?
Buzzkill.
I'm a student so take it with a grain of salt, but when I have precisely 1 beer, I tend to be a little more relaxed and program better. That being said, I wouldn't want to have beer constantly available, especially at work.
It's not as bad as you think. I work at a place with a fridge full of craft beers but the culture is really in place that we do beers late Friday afternoons for a time when the company can all hangout and talk.
I've also worked at a place full of Russians where my boss would randomly show up at 11am and ask if I wanted to help drink cognac with him.
I've also worked at a place full of Russians where my boss would randomly show up at 11am and ask if I wanted to help drink cognac with him.
I work at a place that doesn't have beer on tap, but people will frequently have beers in meetings on Friday afternoons. Which never really struck me as a "fratty" thing to do. It would be interesting if places switched to wine, then the frat angle would be a lot more incongruous. But probably other problems would result :)
Drinking glasses of beer from a tap during a working meeting sounds very frat-y to me, and I'm a drinker.
I mentioned the wine thing because I wonder how much of this is about the alcohol, and how much is about self-consciously avoiding the "aesthetic" (such as it is) of the frat house. You specifically mention glasses of beer from a tap, and I wonder why.
It seems like it shouldn't matter if the beers are fancy stuff from Whole Foods (which is what happens here), or crappy stuff from a tap. But I guess it does.
It seems like it shouldn't matter if the beers are fancy stuff from Whole Foods (which is what happens here), or crappy stuff from a tap. But I guess it does.
Okay. Now we have two opinions.
Amongst companies that keep beer on premesis what is the culture surrounding it?
If you come into work on monday morning and everyone is already onto their 3rd Carlsberg export by 12:30 then I can see why that might cause problems.
OTOH companies that I've worked at that have kept beer in the fridge it has always been something that might be enjoyed with lunch on a friday or at 7PM when one has stayed a little late finishing some milestone on a project before heading home (assuming they are not driving).
If you come into work on monday morning and everyone is already onto their 3rd Carlsberg export by 12:30 then I can see why that might cause problems.
OTOH companies that I've worked at that have kept beer in the fridge it has always been something that might be enjoyed with lunch on a friday or at 7PM when one has stayed a little late finishing some milestone on a project before heading home (assuming they are not driving).
At my current employer, there's rarely a lot of beer in the fridge, and people won't grab one before 4:30 or 5:00 or early in the week. Outside of interns, the people most likely to grab 1 or 2 are the hardest workers in the office.
Are you implying your interns are the hardest workers (aside from those who grab 1 or 2 beers) or are you implying that interns grab 1 or 2 beers, just like your hardest workers?
The latter. We actively discourage interns from doing overtime.
So now you are implying "working hard" means working more hours? sheesh...
Both of the previous companies I worked at had unlimited access to alcohol. The startup had a kegerator, while the bigger company had an empty desk filled entirely with liquor bottles on my floor. The only drinking that really happened was on Fridays. Very rarely did anyone have a drink during normal working hours, unless we were in the office late at night and it was crunch time. It was just taboo.
(Not writing this in defense of alcohol at the office. Personally, I like it. But I can see the other side as well.)
(Not writing this in defense of alcohol at the office. Personally, I like it. But I can see the other side as well.)
It's been present in the last three places I've worked. At one, it was definitely the "after 4 on Fridays" type of thing (115 person company at the time), at another it was the "start at lunch and go till the end of the day" type (8 employees, bad work environment outside of the beer), and at the last, it was pretty much in the fridge and the same regular group would grab one at 3 or 4 every few days or so.
FTFA: It’s a recipe for mixed signals, disagreements, misunderstandings.
So are endless meetings, endless emails, emergencies at 4:55p on a Friday, upper management, the phase of the moon, and tidal activity.
We get it. Your vision of "professional" explicitly doesn't allow for any kind of alcohol ever, but how about not dictating that for everyone else, eh?
So are endless meetings, endless emails, emergencies at 4:55p on a Friday, upper management, the phase of the moon, and tidal activity.
We get it. Your vision of "professional" explicitly doesn't allow for any kind of alcohol ever, but how about not dictating that for everyone else, eh?
You are responding to the tone of the post and to your presumption of who the author is and what they represent, but you're not really responding to the message of the post.
That's exactly my point. The message of the post of the author's opinion. There's no message to respond to because you can't argue with an opinion.
Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment? That's what I think it is.
Like a lot of things, I think beer is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of beer in our Chicago office (we haul crates from Russian River and Three Floyds and Jolly Pumpkin). But nobody drinks while they work, and nobody drinks whole bottles; we open a bottle and a bunch of people taste. If it's Friday, we might open a couple bottles.
I can't imagine this creating a problem. For one thing, nobody's getting drunk. For another, nobody is OK with disrupting anyone else's work. And finally, I don't think many people here would be sanguine about seeing someone get harassed. On the other hand, maybe that's because so many of us are parents.
Maybe there's an argument that your culture needs to be mature enough to handle beer, and maybe there's an argument that if you've got kegs and people are drinking during the working afternoon, that's a sign that maybe the maturity isn't there.
Like a lot of things, I think beer is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of beer in our Chicago office (we haul crates from Russian River and Three Floyds and Jolly Pumpkin). But nobody drinks while they work, and nobody drinks whole bottles; we open a bottle and a bunch of people taste. If it's Friday, we might open a couple bottles.
I can't imagine this creating a problem. For one thing, nobody's getting drunk. For another, nobody is OK with disrupting anyone else's work. And finally, I don't think many people here would be sanguine about seeing someone get harassed. On the other hand, maybe that's because so many of us are parents.
Maybe there's an argument that your culture needs to be mature enough to handle beer, and maybe there's an argument that if you've got kegs and people are drinking during the working afternoon, that's a sign that maybe the maturity isn't there.
> Like a lot of things, I think beer is fine if you're adult about it.
There are a very long list of things that are typically prohibited at work that would be fine "if you're an adult about it." There's a crossover point at which the population of workers becomes large enough that it is difficult or impossible to impose the "be an adult" requirement. The arbiters of responsibility cannot be within reach of all behavior, and thus we mitigate the opportunity for irresponsibly by removing factors that contribute to irresponsible behavior.
I'm of mixed opinion on it. I don't like the idea of saying "this is fine for one organization, but not for another", but that's kind of the reality. If the focus of your business is building a business, you have to sit down and evaluate how the presence of alcohol in the workplace serves that goal (or detracts from it). Yes, it may be a very valuable perk to some employees, but it also has the potential to be a big problem. Even moderate consumption (I know you're not advocating this) is known to alter judgement and lower inhibition.
There are a very long list of things that are typically prohibited at work that would be fine "if you're an adult about it." There's a crossover point at which the population of workers becomes large enough that it is difficult or impossible to impose the "be an adult" requirement. The arbiters of responsibility cannot be within reach of all behavior, and thus we mitigate the opportunity for irresponsibly by removing factors that contribute to irresponsible behavior.
I'm of mixed opinion on it. I don't like the idea of saying "this is fine for one organization, but not for another", but that's kind of the reality. If the focus of your business is building a business, you have to sit down and evaluate how the presence of alcohol in the workplace serves that goal (or detracts from it). Yes, it may be a very valuable perk to some employees, but it also has the potential to be a big problem. Even moderate consumption (I know you're not advocating this) is known to alter judgement and lower inhibition.
I think people need to say "this is fine for one organization, but not for another". Or one person and not another. One houseplant and not another.
American society is overly fond of one size fits all rules - that on one hand end up with adults being treated like children, and the dumbing down of culture and a restricting oeveryone's rights to protect the few from bad decisions - and on the other hand end up with overwatered cacti and tons of other kinds of shoddy work practices, and resulting products, because of a culture of not thinking just following the rules.
Neither of these problems are overwhelming - but fighting back with a realistic view of the world is simple, and effective at avoiding a whole mess of problems.
American society is overly fond of one size fits all rules - that on one hand end up with adults being treated like children, and the dumbing down of culture and a restricting oeveryone's rights to protect the few from bad decisions - and on the other hand end up with overwatered cacti and tons of other kinds of shoddy work practices, and resulting products, because of a culture of not thinking just following the rules.
Neither of these problems are overwhelming - but fighting back with a realistic view of the world is simple, and effective at avoiding a whole mess of problems.
I like that notion. I've always felt unfair using different determinations for different groups, but the way you've expressed it is very much like how we handle this kind of thing in our organization. We like to say, "it's not a problem until it becomes a problem." It provides a nice incentive as well. Don't like verbose, restrictive policies? Then everyone do their best not to be an asshole and we won't have to use them.
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> Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment? That's what I think it is.
Of course this is it. I'm teetotal and I have never found it alarming that my fellow hackers love a beer. There are too many aggressive proselytiser factions in the tech community. Why can't we accept that we are all different and make allowances for that. Of course as a white, British, heterosexual, able-bodied, 20-something male, my opinion is given a -∞ weighting.
Of course this is it. I'm teetotal and I have never found it alarming that my fellow hackers love a beer. There are too many aggressive proselytiser factions in the tech community. Why can't we accept that we are all different and make allowances for that. Of course as a white, British, heterosexual, able-bodied, 20-something male, my opinion is given a -∞ weighting.
> I can't imagine this creating a problem.
Are you serious?
Talk to just about any attorney, and it won't take him or her more than a minute to rattle off a laundry list of scenarios that could literally turn your business upside down in an instant. Your question, "Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment?" suggests that you have some idea of what can go wrong but frankly, a hostile work environment and harassment claims are just the tip of the iceberg.
If you think defenses like "nobody seemed drunk", "nobody was drinking whole bottles", "we always drank responsibly" or "it was Friday" are going to protect you, you're wrong. The involvement of any amount of alcohol in a work-related "incident" will leave your company vulnerable.
Are you serious?
Talk to just about any attorney, and it won't take him or her more than a minute to rattle off a laundry list of scenarios that could literally turn your business upside down in an instant. Your question, "Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment?" suggests that you have some idea of what can go wrong but frankly, a hostile work environment and harassment claims are just the tip of the iceberg.
If you think defenses like "nobody seemed drunk", "nobody was drinking whole bottles", "we always drank responsibly" or "it was Friday" are going to protect you, you're wrong. The involvement of any amount of alcohol in a work-related "incident" will leave your company vulnerable.
If you ask your attorney to enumerate possible disaster scenarios every time you make a decision relating to your business I'd guess you might decide that the whole thing was not worth the risk.
This is a straw man argument, and the type that can only appeal to a company wanting to make poor, ill-informed risk management decisions.
No business can eliminate all risk, but some risks are unnecessary and easily eliminated. Serving alcohol to employees creates a significant amount of potential legal liability (it could literally bankrupt your company) but it is hard to reasonably and objectively argue that the potential liabilities are outweighed by any of the potential benefits.
No business can eliminate all risk, but some risks are unnecessary and easily eliminated. Serving alcohol to employees creates a significant amount of potential legal liability (it could literally bankrupt your company) but it is hard to reasonably and objectively argue that the potential liabilities are outweighed by any of the potential benefits.
Assuming you are not operating dangerous machinery are you likely to be sued for simply allowing alcohol to be consumed?
I can see that you might be held liable for some other problem of which alcohol might be a contributing factor but simply eliminating alcohol may well not solve that problem anyway.
The potential benefits of allowing responsible alcohol consumption might be more than you think, if it helps provide a relaxed atmosphere where people want to go to work and are less likely to jump ship to your competitor for a marginal pay increase.
The potential benefits of allowing responsible alcohol consumption might be more than you think, if it helps provide a relaxed atmosphere where people want to go to work and are less likely to jump ship to your competitor for a marginal pay increase.
> Assuming you are not operating dangerous machinery are you likely to be sued for simply allowing alcohol to be consumed?
Providing alcohol to your employees or permitting them to consume alcohol on the job or at a company-sponsored event creates a whole host of potential liabilities. Here are a couple of real-world examples:
http://www.riskandinsurance.com/story.jsp?storyId=533353814
http://www.mmdnewswire.com/faapuna-mac-manu-mahoney-law-grou...
If you believe that alcohol is a good way to create a "relaxed atmosphere" let me assure you: there's nothing relaxing about watching your insurance premiums skyrocket, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on attorneys, paying millions of dollars in damages and/or living with the fact that you were involved in an incident during which someone was seriously hurt or lost his or her life.
Providing alcohol to your employees or permitting them to consume alcohol on the job or at a company-sponsored event creates a whole host of potential liabilities. Here are a couple of real-world examples:
http://www.riskandinsurance.com/story.jsp?storyId=533353814
http://www.mmdnewswire.com/faapuna-mac-manu-mahoney-law-grou...
If you believe that alcohol is a good way to create a "relaxed atmosphere" let me assure you: there's nothing relaxing about watching your insurance premiums skyrocket, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on attorneys, paying millions of dollars in damages and/or living with the fact that you were involved in an incident during which someone was seriously hurt or lost his or her life.
Lawsuits are filed every day, has there been a ruling that just by serving alcohol they were liable? Or perhaps they are liable due to obvious negligence similar to how a bar can be found liable after a DUI if they over-served someone?
It is interesting that there doesn't seem to be the lawsuit worry or even the worry about "living with the fact that you were involved in an incident during which someone was seriously hurt or lost his or her life" at European companies.
It is interesting that there doesn't seem to be the lawsuit worry or even the worry about "living with the fact that you were involved in an incident during which someone was seriously hurt or lost his or her life" at European companies.
There was an interesting ruling in California a few months ago[1] and you don't need to look too hard to find cases in which an employer was found liable or settled[2].
Keep in mind that when a lawsuit is filed, the strength of your defense doesn't matter if you don't have the funds to pay a quality attorney. In many kinds of cases, you can easily rack up tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills before you even begin to address substantive matters, and plaintiff's counsel has no incentive to approach the matter in a fashion that reduces your costs.
[1] http://www.xperthr.com/news/marriott-ruling-highlights-risks...
[2] http://www.tprglaw.com/wolowsky-v-bum-steer-restaurants-inc
Keep in mind that when a lawsuit is filed, the strength of your defense doesn't matter if you don't have the funds to pay a quality attorney. In many kinds of cases, you can easily rack up tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills before you even begin to address substantive matters, and plaintiff's counsel has no incentive to approach the matter in a fashion that reduces your costs.
[1] http://www.xperthr.com/news/marriott-ruling-highlights-risks...
[2] http://www.tprglaw.com/wolowsky-v-bum-steer-restaurants-inc
For every event like this there are thousands where people have a good time. Just don't let your employees drink-drive.
If "ask your attorney" is good policy, it's good policy regardless of whether the topic is one that you find intuitively naughty or one you find intuitively innocuous.
One potential benefit - you signal to employees that your workplace is fun. Many growing companies will die if they don't get the right talent. Compare the large risk of getting the wrong people to the tiny risk of an employee getting drunk and raping/murdering everyone, and the calculus is far from clear.
One potential benefit - you signal to employees that your workplace is fun. Many growing companies will die if they don't get the right talent. Compare the large risk of getting the wrong people to the tiny risk of an employee getting drunk and raping/murdering everyone, and the calculus is far from clear.
If what you said is true, why do many extremely large corporations serve beer at company events, and sometimes even stock it in the office?
Are their attorneys incompetent?
Are their attorneys incompetent?
My SO is an attorney so I'll respond by relaying a couple of things I hear first-hand on a regular basis:
1. Many clients ignore the advice they're given.
2. Big companies spend lots of money settling lawsuits that could have been completely avoided.
A six or seven-figure lawsuit, which may require tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend, is an inconvenience at a billion dollar company. It can be the end of a startup or small business.
1. Many clients ignore the advice they're given.
2. Big companies spend lots of money settling lawsuits that could have been completely avoided.
A six or seven-figure lawsuit, which may require tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend, is an inconvenience at a billion dollar company. It can be the end of a startup or small business.
Of course they ignore it. If they took every counsel opinion to the bank, they'd almost never sign a contract.
I know criticizing attorneys is a fashionable pastime, but your comment is neither informed nor creative. I know it may come as a shock, but attorneys make a lot more money structuring, negotiating and drafting agreements than they do advising clients not to enter into them.
This said, the type of advice that I was referring to pertains to legal compliance and best practices in the context of running a business. Example:
1. An employer is advised by counsel that it must or should keep certain records.
2. It, for whatever reason, fails to do so.
3. As a result of its failure, it is fined, or is less able to defend itself in a lawsuit.
This sort of thing happens. Every single day. The only thing being taken to the bank is money that employers never had to part with in the first place.
This said, the type of advice that I was referring to pertains to legal compliance and best practices in the context of running a business. Example:
1. An employer is advised by counsel that it must or should keep certain records.
2. It, for whatever reason, fails to do so.
3. As a result of its failure, it is fined, or is less able to defend itself in a lawsuit.
This sort of thing happens. Every single day. The only thing being taken to the bank is money that employers never had to part with in the first place.
I'm not criticizing attorneys. I like attorneys. I don't think you're reading my comments very carefully.
So, I have the experience of routinely seeing the opinions of attorneys on a whole range of issues, and while I'm sure you're right and they could come up with any number of hazards, if we made our decisions based on attorney worst case scenarios, we would never do anything.
It's funny because your response is very hostile, but we actually agree. I see how fraught alcohol in the workplace is. It's clear to me how it could cause problems. I have what I think is a fairly deep appreciation for the kinds of people that I work with, and I can make considered judgements based on that understanding.
But I definitely don't have a one-size-fits-all prescription for how to handle it. Other people on this thread talk about the glasses of beer they drink in meetings in the afternoon; I followed some teammates down on one of their smoke breaks and asked about it, and they were unanimous in judging that atmosphere frat-y. If you're routinely drinking substantially during the workday, I'm worried about your culture too. But: maybe you understand your team better than I do.
If I was in an office full of people I'd only known for 3-9 months, I'd probably be on the "no drinking in the office" side of this issue too.
Also, the idea (which I'm getting from this thread) that beer is an expected perk of startup dev jobs makes me a little queasy.
It's funny because your response is very hostile, but we actually agree. I see how fraught alcohol in the workplace is. It's clear to me how it could cause problems. I have what I think is a fairly deep appreciation for the kinds of people that I work with, and I can make considered judgements based on that understanding.
But I definitely don't have a one-size-fits-all prescription for how to handle it. Other people on this thread talk about the glasses of beer they drink in meetings in the afternoon; I followed some teammates down on one of their smoke breaks and asked about it, and they were unanimous in judging that atmosphere frat-y. If you're routinely drinking substantially during the workday, I'm worried about your culture too. But: maybe you understand your team better than I do.
If I was in an office full of people I'd only known for 3-9 months, I'd probably be on the "no drinking in the office" side of this issue too.
Also, the idea (which I'm getting from this thread) that beer is an expected perk of startup dev jobs makes me a little queasy.
I can see there being a liability to the firm if someone leaves the office drunk and wraps their car around a tree. Maybe that's why "Beer at the office" seems to have less resistance in NYC? Maybe it's also the high price of alcohol here too?
For better or worse, if I want to grab a beer with a co-worker to talk about something informal, there's something to be said for doing it out of the building. Of course it helps that there are half a dozen spots within 2 blocks.
For better or worse, if I want to grab a beer with a co-worker to talk about something informal, there's something to be said for doing it out of the building. Of course it helps that there are half a dozen spots within 2 blocks.
I think the difference here is what you're describing is a group of beer nerds who happen to work together (Russian River in Chicago, that takes effort) vs a culture of slamming miller lite all day long while "working"
But then, if you don't like it, why work there?
Personally I hate ties. I hope I'll never have to work at a place where I'd be forced to wear a tie. Yet I am not calling for all offices to ban ties.
Personally I hate ties. I hope I'll never have to work at a place where I'd be forced to wear a tie. Yet I am not calling for all offices to ban ties.
Exactly, with a colossal difference in working environment.
> Like a lot of things, I think porn is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of porn in our Chicago office...
> Like a lot of things, I think guns are fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of guns in our Chicago office...
(I'm sorry, did I misquote you?) Just because some things are fine if you're adult about it, doesn't make them appropriate at the office.
Why would you have alcohol in an office?
> But nobody drinks while they work (...) so many of us are parents
So they're at the office, not working, and drinking beer. If their work is done (it has to be since you can't work after beer) why don't they go home to their family and kids?
> Like a lot of things, I think guns are fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of guns in our Chicago office...
(I'm sorry, did I misquote you?) Just because some things are fine if you're adult about it, doesn't make them appropriate at the office.
Why would you have alcohol in an office?
> But nobody drinks while they work (...) so many of us are parents
So they're at the office, not working, and drinking beer. If their work is done (it has to be since you can't work after beer) why don't they go home to their family and kids?
> Like a lot of things, I think coffee is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of coffee in our Chicago office...
(I'm sorry, did I misquote your misquote?) Just because some things aren't fine if you're adult about it, doesn't make all things inappropriate at the office.
Why would you have coffee in the office? What about all the people who can't drink coffee, because of their religious beliefs(Mormons), or because they have cardiovascular conditions which prevent them from intaking coffee?
> If their work is done (it has to be since you can't work after beer) why don't they go home to their family and kids?
It seems you have a very unhealthy relationship with beer. You seem to think that the only reason to drink beer is to get drunk. Are you really saying that it isn't possible to work after drinking one beer? And are you really saying that people who are parents shouldn't be wasting their time socializing with coworkers, and they need to just shuttle immediately from the office to their family once work is done?
(I'm sorry, did I misquote your misquote?) Just because some things aren't fine if you're adult about it, doesn't make all things inappropriate at the office.
Why would you have coffee in the office? What about all the people who can't drink coffee, because of their religious beliefs(Mormons), or because they have cardiovascular conditions which prevent them from intaking coffee?
> If their work is done (it has to be since you can't work after beer) why don't they go home to their family and kids?
It seems you have a very unhealthy relationship with beer. You seem to think that the only reason to drink beer is to get drunk. Are you really saying that it isn't possible to work after drinking one beer? And are you really saying that people who are parents shouldn't be wasting their time socializing with coworkers, and they need to just shuttle immediately from the office to their family once work is done?
> You seem to think that the only reason to drink beer is to get drunk.
I'm not saying that and I'm not thinking that either. I don't like beer very much but I drink it occasionally. I prefer wine.
> Are you really saying that it isn't possible to work after drinking one beer?
Yes, I'm saying that, absolutely. You (I) can't do creative thinking (or any kind of thinking) after one glass of alcoholic beverage.
> And are you really saying that people who are parents shouldn't be wasting their time socializing with coworkers, and they need to just shuttle immediately from the office to their family once work is done?
Yes, I'm kind of saying that too. I don't think "socializing with coworkers" is very healthy. Friends are friends, coworkers are coworkers. Just because I'm in an office with other people doesn't make them my "friends".
If friendships develop, then great! and we can meet outside of work. But drinking together while at work but not working, in front of the boss, is not my idea of a good time.
I think it's mostly the boss's idea of a good time; it makes him think he has so many friends! But they're not his friends, he's paying them to be there.
I'm not saying that and I'm not thinking that either. I don't like beer very much but I drink it occasionally. I prefer wine.
> Are you really saying that it isn't possible to work after drinking one beer?
Yes, I'm saying that, absolutely. You (I) can't do creative thinking (or any kind of thinking) after one glass of alcoholic beverage.
> And are you really saying that people who are parents shouldn't be wasting their time socializing with coworkers, and they need to just shuttle immediately from the office to their family once work is done?
Yes, I'm kind of saying that too. I don't think "socializing with coworkers" is very healthy. Friends are friends, coworkers are coworkers. Just because I'm in an office with other people doesn't make them my "friends".
If friendships develop, then great! and we can meet outside of work. But drinking together while at work but not working, in front of the boss, is not my idea of a good time.
I think it's mostly the boss's idea of a good time; it makes him think he has so many friends! But they're not his friends, he's paying them to be there.
> You (I) can't do creative thinking (or any kind of thinking) after one glass of alcoholic beverage.
I believe you might be incorrect. I recently read that a moderate amount of alcohol (~2 beers, which in my mind is a lot...) led test subjects to perform BETTER at tests of creativity. [1]
You or I might not want to work after having alcohol (I'd rather nap), but apparently it can help some people. It's not inconceivable that one might have some beer, and then go back to work for another hour or so.
1: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/244065.php
I believe you might be incorrect. I recently read that a moderate amount of alcohol (~2 beers, which in my mind is a lot...) led test subjects to perform BETTER at tests of creativity. [1]
You or I might not want to work after having alcohol (I'd rather nap), but apparently it can help some people. It's not inconceivable that one might have some beer, and then go back to work for another hour or so.
1: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/244065.php
Had to jump in here. Just because you have a person preference of complete sobriety whilst working shouldn't mean it's a policy for everyone.
For example: • I work best in the early mornings - does this mean everyone should come in from 5am? • I find it hard to work at a stand-up desk - nobody can use stand up desks anymore, sorry. • I feel drained after going to the gym before work - nobody can go to the gym before work, it will stifle your creative thinking. • Wearing long pants (versus shorts) makes me uncomfortable (i.e. unproductive) - no more long pants in the office.
If they make me unproductive - fine. That's me. As for making it a company issue - tell me which of the above options go beyond personal preference.
For example: • I work best in the early mornings - does this mean everyone should come in from 5am? • I find it hard to work at a stand-up desk - nobody can use stand up desks anymore, sorry. • I feel drained after going to the gym before work - nobody can go to the gym before work, it will stifle your creative thinking. • Wearing long pants (versus shorts) makes me uncomfortable (i.e. unproductive) - no more long pants in the office.
If they make me unproductive - fine. That's me. As for making it a company issue - tell me which of the above options go beyond personal preference.
Not sure if you're trolling...
Sex is not fine in the workplace thus porn is not fine.
What's wrong with guns at the office? So long as you are complying with all laws I don't see the problem.
What's wrong with coworkers being friends and hanging out for a bit after work on a Friday?
Sex is not fine in the workplace thus porn is not fine.
What's wrong with guns at the office? So long as you are complying with all laws I don't see the problem.
What's wrong with coworkers being friends and hanging out for a bit after work on a Friday?
I'm sure RedTube and Smith & Wesson would disagree with you regarding your examples.
What the fuck are you talking about? If someone brought a gun to the office, that would be their last day working with me.
I don't even know what to say about porn in the office. In 19 years working in this field, that is an issue that has never come up (unlike guns).
I don't even know what to say about porn in the office. In 19 years working in this field, that is an issue that has never come up (unlike guns).
...?? That was my point exactly? Just because some things are ok "when you're adult about it" don't make them ok at the office.
I'm not advocating bringing guns at the office, I'm advocating not giving free alcohol to your employees!!
I don't see what possible good could come from drinking at work, but I see a lot of bad.
I'm not advocating bringing guns at the office, I'm advocating not giving free alcohol to your employees!!
I don't see what possible good could come from drinking at work, but I see a lot of bad.
Unless your company offers private offices with headphones,tissues and a strict knock-first policy you can't have porn because it will at best distract and at worst offend the people nearby.
But beer, and people drinking beer and talking louder and louder as they drink, isn't distracting in a place of work?
I think a big cultural indicator might be advertising your beer fridge on the job posting. Having beer in the fridge and being cool with people having one on a late Friday afternoon is one thing, making it one of your selling points is another.
Perhaps the "beer" subtext is just more about being exclusive (beer nerds welcome here) versus inclusive. What if instead the same event was going out to a bar, where you can order a whiskey, cosmopolitan or soda?
I think it fits into the greater "culture" of a workplace, and is at most a symptom of the problem and not the answer. If a CTO thinks his ads are appearing "sexist," the problem must go deeper than the keg in the break room (which is just the most obvious sign of immaturity.)
I think it fits into the greater "culture" of a workplace, and is at most a symptom of the problem and not the answer. If a CTO thinks his ads are appearing "sexist," the problem must go deeper than the keg in the break room (which is just the most obvious sign of immaturity.)
Perhaps there's a difference in culture between bottles versus kegs? The former suggests restraint, the latter doesn't?
It all depends on the context. Out of the beer-friendly offices I've worked in, I've preferred the ones that have kegerators because it means I can pour myself half a beer at 5pm instead of going for a full 12oz.
I agree with this. And as a side note, it brings me back to the days where my student house would come together to try and finish a torpedo keg. We always failed our mission. But I believe we came out the other end closer friends
Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. Just the presence of a small bottle fridge says to me - "We're a relaxed and fun place to work. We take your mental wellbeing seriously and don't mind you unwinding a little on a sunny friday afternoon."
Whereas a keg just says "Drink up, there's plenty more".
Either way, I think that having beer in the office is less of a perk and more of a culture indicator. In one easy move you've made the company looked relaxed and friendly. You don't even have to be drinking the beer regularly, just have it available for special occasions or somesuch.
Whereas a keg just says "Drink up, there's plenty more".
Either way, I think that having beer in the office is less of a perk and more of a culture indicator. In one easy move you've made the company looked relaxed and friendly. You don't even have to be drinking the beer regularly, just have it available for special occasions or somesuch.
We don't have a small bottle fridge because we want to seem like a relaxed and fun place to work. We have a small fridge to hold Fresca, and enough people that really appreciate craft brewing that the bottom shelf of that fridge tends to have good bottles.
There's no company policy that keeps the fridge stocked; it's something that arose organically from the people that work in this office. Our MTV and NYC offices don't routinely have beer (the MTV office has the empties of the Dark Lord we bring them when we get out there).
A deliberate company policy of keeping the office plied with alcohol sounds to me like another one of those signals that maybe your company's relationship with alcohol is a bit fraught. (But that's easy for me to say; maybe I just like to drink so much that I can't see how fraught my existing relationship with drinking is? Who knows.)
There's no company policy that keeps the fridge stocked; it's something that arose organically from the people that work in this office. Our MTV and NYC offices don't routinely have beer (the MTV office has the empties of the Dark Lord we bring them when we get out there).
A deliberate company policy of keeping the office plied with alcohol sounds to me like another one of those signals that maybe your company's relationship with alcohol is a bit fraught. (But that's easy for me to say; maybe I just like to drink so much that I can't see how fraught my existing relationship with drinking is? Who knows.)
So, in other words, you could stop providing beer and nobody would notice, or care if they did?
Is there anyone in your office who doesn't partake? Mormons, Moslems, Baptists, alcoholics, people who just don't care for beer?
Is there anyone in your office who doesn't partake? Mormons, Moslems, Baptists, alcoholics, people who just don't care for beer?
Yep, there are. And, yeah, I think that's another good acid test: if not stocking beer would alter the quality of life for a job here, that'd be a good sign that there was a problem.
Fuck that shit. I like beer. If I have a choice between a job where it's supplied and a job where it isn't, guess which I'm going to choose. You say "investors aren't backing frat houses", but they must be seeing decent returns from companies with a beer supply or they wouldn't be funding them.
This is exactly why companies provide it. Like programminggeek said, it's a signal that they're trying to look cool. They would probably prefer if you didn't actually use it (impaired mental function, cost of operation, etc), but simply having it attracts and retains employees like you. There's beer on tap in my office, but I never actually see anyone have any at their desk or during the day. I've only ever seen people drinking at the end of the day before going home.
This seems to be the best argument for it. Or rather - would you leave a place that had beer for one that didn't?
Maybe it's because i'm european and not living in the US, but this kegerator in the office thing looks like something that gets old fast. The first weeks it may sound fun, beer in the office, branded beer glasses,etc... but i don't understand how someone could care as the novelty wears of.
And i hope i don't need to comment on that "devs need beer" thing, c'mon, childish stuff.
Does a subset of the employee likes beer? Ok, let's go outside to taste some nice craft beer after work. I don't see anything wrong with that.
And i hope i don't need to comment on that "devs need beer" thing, c'mon, childish stuff.
Does a subset of the employee likes beer? Ok, let's go outside to taste some nice craft beer after work. I don't see anything wrong with that.
It has nothing to do with being European. My (multinational) company has offices in the US and Belgium. There's beer on tap in Belgium, and not in the US. Every time I visit, my colleagues in Europe always make a big stink like "how do you get stuff done over there with no beer?"
I worked for a company based in Germany, and when I'd go visit I remember the big bottles of beer in the cafeteria. I think the whole time I was there I witnessed maybe 2-3 people ever drink a beer outside of the Wednesday weisswurst lunch day (You want to talk about workplace culture being oppressive try to eat that awful stuff). It wasn't especially prohibited, it just didn't seem like anyone did it. Now, the minute we were off work, I could find half the company at the same bar in the city having a great time together nearly every day of the week.
Maybe in Belgium or in other countries with a "beer culture" like Germany, not hard to believe but not widespread anyway.
Just to add another data point, when i worked for an US multinational in Italy i clearly remember there was a rule against introducing alcoholics in the workplace, each place has its rules.
My point was just that in Europe drinking on the workplace isn't common or usually allowed and, at least from where i come from, i don't feel people in general are complaining about the lack of alcohol in the office. Finding beer and wine in the canteen, just for lunch, is instead quite common.
Just to add another data point, when i worked for an US multinational in Italy i clearly remember there was a rule against introducing alcoholics in the workplace, each place has its rules.
My point was just that in Europe drinking on the workplace isn't common or usually allowed and, at least from where i come from, i don't feel people in general are complaining about the lack of alcohol in the office. Finding beer and wine in the canteen, just for lunch, is instead quite common.
A previous company I worked at had both a huge selection of wine and a kegerator in the office. I don't think the novelty of having a glass of beer or wine easily accessible at the end of the day ever really wore off, especially since the beer and wine selection constantly rotated.
At least in our case it seemed to be more of a social experience for different groups of the company to relax and talk to each other, as the company was maybe 25% devs, not everyone got to regularly work with others from other departments. Sure we could have all gone out to a bar but most bars nearby were always packed with the afterwork crowd making just walking around talking to each other a huge chore (think near the front of a concert style packed).
At least in our case it seemed to be more of a social experience for different groups of the company to relax and talk to each other, as the company was maybe 25% devs, not everyone got to regularly work with others from other departments. Sure we could have all gone out to a bar but most bars nearby were always packed with the afterwork crowd making just walking around talking to each other a huge chore (think near the front of a concert style packed).
Beer in the office is not something anybody needs and yes it requires a level of responsibility about how you use it, I would argue the same thing is true of having free soda in terms of the long term health of people in the office.
I'm a guy and I could care less about if there is beer or not in the office. If anything it's a signal that the company is trying to look cool. It doesn't mean that the company is in fact a cool place to work.
Also, it is completely sexist to say that beer is the fault of guys or that it is keeping women away. The place where I worked where they had beer on tap, just as many women drank as men. Many of the women were as vocal about supporting the beer keg as the guys were, so even though it is popular to claim that it's a gender thing, it's not.
Some people like beer in the office some don't. I don't think gender has a lot to do with it. Alcohol consumption is very much a personal preference that doesn't correlate well with gender from what I can tell.
I'm a guy and I could care less about if there is beer or not in the office. If anything it's a signal that the company is trying to look cool. It doesn't mean that the company is in fact a cool place to work.
Also, it is completely sexist to say that beer is the fault of guys or that it is keeping women away. The place where I worked where they had beer on tap, just as many women drank as men. Many of the women were as vocal about supporting the beer keg as the guys were, so even though it is popular to claim that it's a gender thing, it's not.
Some people like beer in the office some don't. I don't think gender has a lot to do with it. Alcohol consumption is very much a personal preference that doesn't correlate well with gender from what I can tell.
Sure, it's not necessarily sexist (although it may happen to appeal to more women than men in job adverts).
But, alcohol and soda are not on a par - only one impairs your ability to think, act and discuss properly[1].
[1] yeah yeah tolerances, but ultimately it's wearing down peoples inhibitions - we're definitely more likely to be rude (or accidentally rude) when drunk.
But, alcohol and soda are not on a par - only one impairs your ability to think, act and discuss properly[1].
[1] yeah yeah tolerances, but ultimately it's wearing down peoples inhibitions - we're definitely more likely to be rude (or accidentally rude) when drunk.
Seems like a non-issue to me. If a person doesn't want beer, they don't have to drink it. As long as everybody is getting their work done and not getting drunk, who cares?
Soda and junk food aren't great either, why not complain about them?
Soda and junk food aren't great either, why not complain about them?
The better question is: why would you have people on staff who you wouldn't trust to be mature enough to handle the situation?
We're all human and we all mess things up. Most people most of the time are fine people. That's not really the question: the question is about costs and benefits when things go wrong.
I'm a mature, responsible, smart, amazing, blahblahblah person much of the time. And then other times I'm not, and my failures are largely non-malicious -- just stupid. I'd guess the same is true of all of us.
I'm a mature, responsible, smart, amazing, blahblahblah person much of the time. And then other times I'm not, and my failures are largely non-malicious -- just stupid. I'd guess the same is true of all of us.
Yes, we all mess things up, but that remains true with or without alcohol. But the fact of the matter is that there will be alcohol present at some time with company events, be it a summer picnic event, holiday party, or dinners. Not to mention the fact that your employees are going to be going out for happy hours together, and just because it doesn't happen on company property doesn't make it any less a company issue if two employees have an incident.
So I ask again why you would want to have someone on staff that you would think twice about giving access to beer in the office?
So I ask again why you would want to have someone on staff that you would think twice about giving access to beer in the office?
Don't fix what ain't broke?
Beer causing problems in the office is a personnel problem, not a "beer in the office problem".
Beer causing problems in the office is a personnel problem, not a "beer in the office problem".
Most programming is nothing like operating heavy machinery or heart surgery, there's no reason not to have beer on tap. Working conditions have been improving greatly over the last century. I for one welcome a bit of pampering.
Small doses of alcohol actually improve mood and cognitive performance[1]. Athletic too but that's less relevant.
If some people like it, let them have it. What happened to "live and let live"? If some people like more frat-like atmosphere, why not let them gravitate towards those places?
[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9833014
Small doses of alcohol actually improve mood and cognitive performance[1]. Athletic too but that's less relevant.
If some people like it, let them have it. What happened to "live and let live"? If some people like more frat-like atmosphere, why not let them gravitate towards those places?
[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9833014
[1] Mood and cognitive performance improved by a small amount of alcohol given with a lunchtime meal.
Everyone is different here. I used to work in Paris periodically, and it did work well there. People never got drunk, but frequently had wine for lunch. Then I worked in Australia. You knew better than to try and get a serious question answered on a Friday afternoon.
I personally find that I get tired with alcohol, and while my creativity may go up, my focus goes down. As such, I don't like alcohol at lunch, but that's a personal choice.
I personally find that I get tired with alcohol, and while my creativity may go up, my focus goes down. As such, I don't like alcohol at lunch, but that's a personal choice.
We have a beer fridge in the office. If we’re hosting a barbecue event in Summer or some other kind of social we can offer them out. We’re free to take them if we want. Very, very rarely does that happen – and we’re a hosting company with software and hardware folks, aged 20-40 on average, the kind of people demographically some might expect to be all for beer at work.
Maybe after a hard day, a beer happens. But never, ever, ever during.
Frankly, If you think you can work and drink, you’re mixing business with pleasure. Never a good call.
Having a drink at work at the end of the day is a nice option to have, especially if there’s something to be thankful for (we fixed the issue, so-and-so is having a baby etc). It’s a case of knowing when it’s appropriate, and when it isn’t. If you don’t know when it’s appropriate to have a casual beer your sensibilities are way off. Worse, if you think it’s ok to be flat-out drunk in the office then you probably shouldn’t have a job at all.
It’s not beer’s fault. Nobody forces you to drink it, either in small or large doses.
Maybe after a hard day, a beer happens. But never, ever, ever during.
Frankly, If you think you can work and drink, you’re mixing business with pleasure. Never a good call.
Having a drink at work at the end of the day is a nice option to have, especially if there’s something to be thankful for (we fixed the issue, so-and-so is having a baby etc). It’s a case of knowing when it’s appropriate, and when it isn’t. If you don’t know when it’s appropriate to have a casual beer your sensibilities are way off. Worse, if you think it’s ok to be flat-out drunk in the office then you probably shouldn’t have a job at all.
It’s not beer’s fault. Nobody forces you to drink it, either in small or large doses.
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Great, another nannying article that says their way is best and all other ways are poison. Throw in a few links to inflammatory articles to "back up" their claim too.
Nope, absolutely no chance at all that an office full of mature adults can enjoy a beer here or there throughout the week without someone getting sexually harassed and their life ruined.
Nope, absolutely no chance at all that an office full of mature adults can enjoy a beer here or there throughout the week without someone getting sexually harassed and their life ruined.
Beer is the new ping pong.
As long as it's good beer, not the wishy washy stuff.
I've worked in offices where there's been alcohol in the fridge at times, it was always for a Friday and only acceptable after 4pm (with a finish at around 6pm most people aren't going past one beer). It's not an essential, and I don't think a company should provide it as a perk, why not pay for your team to hit a bar once every now and again, get out of the office.
I've worked in offices where there's been alcohol in the fridge at times, it was always for a Friday and only acceptable after 4pm (with a finish at around 6pm most people aren't going past one beer). It's not an essential, and I don't think a company should provide it as a perk, why not pay for your team to hit a bar once every now and again, get out of the office.
Beer doesn't rape people. People do.
I think if somebody wants to have beer in their office, they should be free to do so. If they want to smoke in their office, the same (not sure if this is still legal, though) - I just would like to know in advance, because I wouldn't like to work there. But other people might.
Also, this seems to suggest beer leads to rape/harassment. So as an implication, rape/harassment in bars are fine, just not in the office? Doesn't make much sense imo.
I think if somebody wants to have beer in their office, they should be free to do so. If they want to smoke in their office, the same (not sure if this is still legal, though) - I just would like to know in advance, because I wouldn't like to work there. But other people might.
Also, this seems to suggest beer leads to rape/harassment. So as an implication, rape/harassment in bars are fine, just not in the office? Doesn't make much sense imo.
The office I work in has beer and I often forget we even have it. There's no pressure at all to drink it and I've never once seen somebody drunk (or even nearly so) in the office.
And we don't have bottles. We have a keg.
Honestly, the free soda is a much more legitimate issue than the free beer. The beer has caused no problems and I don't know of anybody who overconsumes it. The soda, though, is unhealthy and far too easy to overconsume. I've been guilty of that myself.
And we don't have bottles. We have a keg.
Honestly, the free soda is a much more legitimate issue than the free beer. The beer has caused no problems and I don't know of anybody who overconsumes it. The soda, though, is unhealthy and far too easy to overconsume. I've been guilty of that myself.
Devs don't need beer, they need coffee, :D
On a more serious note, I don't get the point of this post.
Beer and pizza being listed in job adverts? Yeah, that's a sign that the job itself isn't actually attractive enough to draw people in. Second, I for one wouldn't want to work anywhere that had a continuous supply of beer and pizza. Maybe as a friday afternoon event.
Beer and sexism? I don't see it. For one, women drink beer too. Although to be honest, not everyone's into beer; "drinks" would be a better term. Good wine, for example.
Beer and immature, juvenile 'frat boy' behaviour? Only if you're working with immature, juvenile frat boys. We have beer at the office (I work offsite though, curse you consultancy!), but nobody drinks during the week days, and most people just want to go home at 5 on fridays. Maybe they have a beer at 4. But most just want to go home to their families and pasttimes.
It really depends on a lot of factors, and whether your job is a place where you go to work, or something that doubles as your entire social life. or something.
If people, as hinted at in the article, drink tons of beer during their working hours, then those people have a problem, imho. Who here does? Also, does the author have experience working in a place that serves beer during working hours? Or people that become complete tards when they've had a couple?
On a more serious note, I don't get the point of this post.
Beer and pizza being listed in job adverts? Yeah, that's a sign that the job itself isn't actually attractive enough to draw people in. Second, I for one wouldn't want to work anywhere that had a continuous supply of beer and pizza. Maybe as a friday afternoon event.
Beer and sexism? I don't see it. For one, women drink beer too. Although to be honest, not everyone's into beer; "drinks" would be a better term. Good wine, for example.
Beer and immature, juvenile 'frat boy' behaviour? Only if you're working with immature, juvenile frat boys. We have beer at the office (I work offsite though, curse you consultancy!), but nobody drinks during the week days, and most people just want to go home at 5 on fridays. Maybe they have a beer at 4. But most just want to go home to their families and pasttimes.
It really depends on a lot of factors, and whether your job is a place where you go to work, or something that doubles as your entire social life. or something.
If people, as hinted at in the article, drink tons of beer during their working hours, then those people have a problem, imho. Who here does? Also, does the author have experience working in a place that serves beer during working hours? Or people that become complete tards when they've had a couple?
The point is that there is a long list of variables more important to get right than the decision to have beer at the office, and getting those variables set correctly would be MUCH more significant than the Beer variable. So just eliminate the variable altogether and save yourself the trouble.
That seems to be the point here. Forget about beer in the office and focus on the things that really matter.
That seems to be the point here. Forget about beer in the office and focus on the things that really matter.
Alcohol is a very polarizing subject, even outside of the workplace. And rightly so - it can be a destructive force, and does require more personal responsibility than many people have to use it "appropriately".
And beer especially is loaded with gender baggage as the drink for choice for men. In light of all the recent discussion about gender equality in tech (not to mention "rape culture") having a keggerator in the office can easily be construed as throwing your company's hat in the male-privilege ring. Beer enjoys a better reputation than liquor, at least, but would the conversation change if the office stocked wine? Or drink with the opposite gender stereotypes, like maybe strawberry margaritas on tap?
I like beer (and homebrewing) and have no problem with it in the office. But I'm a young, white, male, developer; so no surprise there. It would appear I am who these companies (think they) want to attract and retain.
But assuming my demographic is not the only one who should feel comfortable in the office, I could see erring on the side of sensitivity and "professionalism", and not having beer on tap in the office.
And beer especially is loaded with gender baggage as the drink for choice for men. In light of all the recent discussion about gender equality in tech (not to mention "rape culture") having a keggerator in the office can easily be construed as throwing your company's hat in the male-privilege ring. Beer enjoys a better reputation than liquor, at least, but would the conversation change if the office stocked wine? Or drink with the opposite gender stereotypes, like maybe strawberry margaritas on tap?
I like beer (and homebrewing) and have no problem with it in the office. But I'm a young, white, male, developer; so no surprise there. It would appear I am who these companies (think they) want to attract and retain.
But assuming my demographic is not the only one who should feel comfortable in the office, I could see erring on the side of sensitivity and "professionalism", and not having beer on tap in the office.
[deleted]
Don't fix it if it ain't broken.
To me, having beer on tap just says, 'hey we have a relaxed, carefree, creative culture here.' And, I'm attracted to that.
Just as a caveat - I know Anne. I'm also a lady, so, some of the sexism arguments both do and don't ring true.
I'm not sure what I think. I've drunk alcohol in the office that had beer as a way of thinking through a problem. It worked. I also know a few engineers and other tech people who are alcoholics, and have admitted to me they spent serious time (and still do) in AA. I'm not sure the continual serving beer at pretty much every tech event I've ever been to is good for their careers. I'm 90% sure theire are events where they just bow out of because of temptation reasons (not every event, but still) I personally wouldn't mind a dry event just for calorie count/i don't need it reasons on occasion.
I also know that other countries drinking during the day is much more normal (an example here :http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2010-04... ) I also think other countries have very different feelings towards alcohol. The US still has some puritan motifs in its alcohol culture.
Finally, the one thing that does bother me - beer in tech companies usually means they want you to be there 24/7. Fine, ok - but you can do business elsewhere. For all you know interacting with some bartender may help you - and it isn't going to happen if your work life is also your social life, as implied by the kegs.
I'm not sure what I think. I've drunk alcohol in the office that had beer as a way of thinking through a problem. It worked. I also know a few engineers and other tech people who are alcoholics, and have admitted to me they spent serious time (and still do) in AA. I'm not sure the continual serving beer at pretty much every tech event I've ever been to is good for their careers. I'm 90% sure theire are events where they just bow out of because of temptation reasons (not every event, but still) I personally wouldn't mind a dry event just for calorie count/i don't need it reasons on occasion.
I also know that other countries drinking during the day is much more normal (an example here :http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2010-04... ) I also think other countries have very different feelings towards alcohol. The US still has some puritan motifs in its alcohol culture.
Finally, the one thing that does bother me - beer in tech companies usually means they want you to be there 24/7. Fine, ok - but you can do business elsewhere. For all you know interacting with some bartender may help you - and it isn't going to happen if your work life is also your social life, as implied by the kegs.
Finally, the one thing that does bother me - beer in tech companies usually means they want you to be there 24/7. Fine, ok - but you can do business elsewhere. For all you know interacting with some bartender may help you - and it isn't going to happen if your work life is also your social life, as implied by the kegs.
This is very true, and includes other benefits too. Dinner is a cheap price for a few hours of developer time. Laundry service? Much cheaper than a few hours of developer time. Package delivery at the office? Again much cheaper...
This is very true, and includes other benefits too. Dinner is a cheap price for a few hours of developer time. Laundry service? Much cheaper than a few hours of developer time. Package delivery at the office? Again much cheaper...
I'm not sold that always being in the social context of work is healthy. And as my cofounder says "Keeping healthy is the cheapest way to get stuff done"
Further, productivity drops if you work 24/7.
On a personal level - time for other things (including laundry) outside of work does make me more productive because it gives me to time to think about work. The mind relaxes and you make connections you would not otherwise.
Further, productivity drops if you work 24/7.
On a personal level - time for other things (including laundry) outside of work does make me more productive because it gives me to time to think about work. The mind relaxes and you make connections you would not otherwise.
I hear you - gym memberships are a great benefit because they save the employee money, and pay for themselves in better health.
Any perk that gives me time back is a good one, whether or not I invest the time in the office or elsewhere. I'd rather play with my kids than fold clothes.
Personally I find my productivity increases up to about 50 hours, and then drops slowly until about 60, when it falls off the cliff. Different people hit it at different times.
Any perk that gives me time back is a good one, whether or not I invest the time in the office or elsewhere. I'd rather play with my kids than fold clothes.
Personally I find my productivity increases up to about 50 hours, and then drops slowly until about 60, when it falls off the cliff. Different people hit it at different times.
What strikes me about this blog post is it's not actually making a point using supporting evidence. They don't even have any negative experiences to even use as example. This person just doesn't want beer in their (or others') workplace.
I agree with all the author's points. But I have worked several places with not only beer, but liquor on hand. Nobody got drunk, nobody acted like an asshat (more than they were sober). They were responsible.
Is that going to be the case all the time? Probably not. But then again, some workplaces are always just more shitty to work in than others, and when you encounter it you decide if you need to move on or not. It's unlikely that beer would be the single motivator driving you to that decision.
I agree with all the author's points. But I have worked several places with not only beer, but liquor on hand. Nobody got drunk, nobody acted like an asshat (more than they were sober). They were responsible.
Is that going to be the case all the time? Probably not. But then again, some workplaces are always just more shitty to work in than others, and when you encounter it you decide if you need to move on or not. It's unlikely that beer would be the single motivator driving you to that decision.
> think about what your devs really need (...) Sunlight, on occasion
I'm sure this is entirely tongue-in-cheek, but sunlight is extremely important; we don't get enough; all those people constantly attending "conferences" held indoors where they watch people talking on stage and slides flickering on a screen while never seeing the light of day make me sad.
Get out in the open. Look at the sky. Drop your iPod/iPhone/whatever. Think of nothing.
I'm sure this is entirely tongue-in-cheek, but sunlight is extremely important; we don't get enough; all those people constantly attending "conferences" held indoors where they watch people talking on stage and slides flickering on a screen while never seeing the light of day make me sad.
Get out in the open. Look at the sky. Drop your iPod/iPhone/whatever. Think of nothing.
I'm personally not a fan of beer at the office as a regular thing, just because I think it's one more amenity to get employees to spend longer hours at the office.
But that said, there was usually beer where I last worked, and in no way was it "a recipe for mixed signals, disagreements, misunderstandings."
It basically served as a way for devs to unwind at the end of the day (after 7pm) being social with each other, while they played video games or board games or watched movies on the conference room projector. Especially on Fridays.
It had nothing to do with a frat culture, I never saw drinking during the day, and I never heard of anyone getting drunk. It was no different from cheesecake in the fridge, or pizza in the fridge, or wine, or soda.
But that said, there was usually beer where I last worked, and in no way was it "a recipe for mixed signals, disagreements, misunderstandings."
It basically served as a way for devs to unwind at the end of the day (after 7pm) being social with each other, while they played video games or board games or watched movies on the conference room projector. Especially on Fridays.
It had nothing to do with a frat culture, I never saw drinking during the day, and I never heard of anyone getting drunk. It was no different from cheesecake in the fridge, or pizza in the fridge, or wine, or soda.
There’s no reason to have beer. On tap. In your business.
Reasons #1 through #999: I'd like to have a beer.
Why do freedom of choice and personal responsibility never factor into these types of blog posts? This entire thing reads "I don't want beer, so you can't have beer."
I was fixing some bugs last night. And I was drinking a pint of Wall's End[1] at the same time. I felt zero effects from the alcohol (it's a 4.8% session brown ale), the bugs got fixed, and the sun rose in the east this morning.
[1] http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/30076/89553 If you're in Minneapolis / St. Paul, and you like brown ales, get some of this.
Reasons #1 through #999: I'd like to have a beer.
Why do freedom of choice and personal responsibility never factor into these types of blog posts? This entire thing reads "I don't want beer, so you can't have beer."
I was fixing some bugs last night. And I was drinking a pint of Wall's End[1] at the same time. I felt zero effects from the alcohol (it's a 4.8% session brown ale), the bugs got fixed, and the sun rose in the east this morning.
[1] http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/30076/89553 If you're in Minneapolis / St. Paul, and you like brown ales, get some of this.
Flagged. Stop commanding people what to do, who are you anyway?
Here's a snippet from the carefree happy days of the previous century, before 9/11 and the New Earnestness --
Baumholder, Germany, 1986. The daily march to the motor pool. Yes, I was in the Army. A little later than usual for reasons no longer remembered. Early summer, it might have been 70-F, considered a heat wave back then. A local work crew was pouring new concrete to replace some crumbling pad. They were on break drinking beer, at 1030. To those of you who do not habla, that's 10:30 AM.
They did seem to work a little slowly compared to the crews I have observed since. But I've never used a stopwatch, so I could be wrong.
Baumholder, Germany, 1986. The daily march to the motor pool. Yes, I was in the Army. A little later than usual for reasons no longer remembered. Early summer, it might have been 70-F, considered a heat wave back then. A local work crew was pouring new concrete to replace some crumbling pad. They were on break drinking beer, at 1030. To those of you who do not habla, that's 10:30 AM.
They did seem to work a little slowly compared to the crews I have observed since. But I've never used a stopwatch, so I could be wrong.
Everybody's talking about it as though everyone goes on a raging bender at work every evening. It's as though offices offered free cake and you're all imagining meeting rooms full of rotund programmers stuffing half a bundt down their gullet.
If beer in an office is causing issues it's because someone doesn't know their limits, and that is an entirely individualized and likely very marginalized issue. The author's immediate correlation of beer and "frat culture" is easily the most sexist thing I've read this week, and the implication that "raging hormones and inexperience" combined with an occasional afternoon beer automatically means I become a raging pervert bent on harassing any woman in sight is ludicrous.
If beer in an office is causing issues it's because someone doesn't know their limits, and that is an entirely individualized and likely very marginalized issue. The author's immediate correlation of beer and "frat culture" is easily the most sexist thing I've read this week, and the implication that "raging hormones and inexperience" combined with an occasional afternoon beer automatically means I become a raging pervert bent on harassing any woman in sight is ludicrous.
I think her point is not "everyone goes on a raging bender" her point is more...if one person, one time, goes on a raging bender... was the tradeoff worth it.
The answer of course is ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
Culture decisions should be in the best interests of everyone in the office. If you have one recovering alcoholic in the office, or one person who might act irresponsibly...
This little harmless perk becomes a massive liability, and more importantly...is completely unnecessary and possibly inappropriate.
Culture decisions should be in the best interests of everyone in the office. If you have one recovering alcoholic in the office, or one person who might act irresponsibly...
This little harmless perk becomes a massive liability, and more importantly...is completely unnecessary and possibly inappropriate.
If that's the point, then it is moot. If one person, one time, goes on a raging bender, then they probably would have done so regardless. It's an individual and rare issue which should be judged independently of the whole.
We're not children, we're adults. Generally people know how to drink responsibly, if they choose to drink at all, and while I'm aware that there are a very large number of people who do not they are still very much a minority, else there would be pandemonium in the streets every time a liquor store comes to town.
As others here have already pointed out, if you go to a lawyer and ask for an enumerated list of everything in your office that could become a "massive liability" then you'll probably decide to just shutter the doors before the list is even half completed.
Stop applying unfounded "what if" morals to a perfectly legal and benign office perk. Trying to act in the "best interests of everyone" will ultimately serve no one, your office will end up being another cookie cutter cubicle farm that the legal department has determined is the statistically least likely (but not entirely!) to cause problems and all your talent will eventually get tired and move on to greener pastures.
We're not children, we're adults. Generally people know how to drink responsibly, if they choose to drink at all, and while I'm aware that there are a very large number of people who do not they are still very much a minority, else there would be pandemonium in the streets every time a liquor store comes to town.
As others here have already pointed out, if you go to a lawyer and ask for an enumerated list of everything in your office that could become a "massive liability" then you'll probably decide to just shutter the doors before the list is even half completed.
Stop applying unfounded "what if" morals to a perfectly legal and benign office perk. Trying to act in the "best interests of everyone" will ultimately serve no one, your office will end up being another cookie cutter cubicle farm that the legal department has determined is the statistically least likely (but not entirely!) to cause problems and all your talent will eventually get tired and move on to greener pastures.
Interesting aspect i'd never thought of. When you haven't working in (or with) HR before I guess you might not think of things like recovering alcoholics - or even company liability.
It seems a lot of startups ignore these issues for a hope of garnering another scoop from the talent pool.
It seems a lot of startups ignore these issues for a hope of garnering another scoop from the talent pool.
Everyone in my office knows how to enjoy beer. As a result, we have a fridge full of it. Do we ever get drunk at work? No. Do we ever let it affect our productivity? No. Do we drink it every day? No.
That being said there are numerous occasions where we've just fought some fires and feel like unwinding for the last 2 hours of the day. So we all grab a beer and hang out in the kitchen to socialize and bond. It's been a great team builder. No one grabs their 3rd beer. After 1 or 2, everyone goes back to their desk.
And you know what? Every company I've spoken to works in a similar manner. So, I really don't think it's a problem, nor have I read of it being a problem in any work environment. It just so happens to be a common thing many people love, man or woman, and as responsible adults I don't find it inappropriate to advertise an in office keg.
That being said there are numerous occasions where we've just fought some fires and feel like unwinding for the last 2 hours of the day. So we all grab a beer and hang out in the kitchen to socialize and bond. It's been a great team builder. No one grabs their 3rd beer. After 1 or 2, everyone goes back to their desk.
And you know what? Every company I've spoken to works in a similar manner. So, I really don't think it's a problem, nor have I read of it being a problem in any work environment. It just so happens to be a common thing many people love, man or woman, and as responsible adults I don't find it inappropriate to advertise an in office keg.
Having beer in the office fridge isn't that different from having a ping pong table. I can see how many people would never use it, but I'm not understanding the hostility.
I think that there are two ideas worth separating in this post.
1. Having ready beer (a keg) available in a work setting can cause issues. Ready alcohol impairs judgement and blurs boundaries.
2. Having Friday afternoon beers (or any other kind of gathering) can be beneficial to company bonding and communication. Frankly, I don't care if it is ice cream (as suggested in the comments), beer, weekly lunches, or kite flying--I want a regular low pressure social atmosphere for a) getting to know my team mates and b) exchanging work ideas in an informal cross department setting.
I think having types of events outlined in point 2 is beneficial to everyone in the company.
Disclaimer--I work in a small company that does Friday afternoon beers, but we are not a startup.
1. Having ready beer (a keg) available in a work setting can cause issues. Ready alcohol impairs judgement and blurs boundaries.
2. Having Friday afternoon beers (or any other kind of gathering) can be beneficial to company bonding and communication. Frankly, I don't care if it is ice cream (as suggested in the comments), beer, weekly lunches, or kite flying--I want a regular low pressure social atmosphere for a) getting to know my team mates and b) exchanging work ideas in an informal cross department setting.
I think having types of events outlined in point 2 is beneficial to everyone in the company.
Disclaimer--I work in a small company that does Friday afternoon beers, but we are not a startup.
I wonder why there's no wine, or mixed drinks on a company's perks list. Time to diversify!
I have worked at my current job for 3 months. I've seen alcohol served 2-3 times during town hall style meetings. And yes, some people get drunk. I do not work at a tech company but rather at a cosmetics company, at least half of the employees are women.
I would not be surprised if there were a few lushes at the office who keep a bottle in their desks. Our culture is pretty laid back. But I imagine it would tighten up pretty quickly should an incident occur.
I wouldn't rule out serving alcohol at the office, but make sure everybody's really cool with each other first. If you had an instinctive reaction like "oh of course everyone's cool!", then they're not and you're about to find out what it's like to be Michael Scott.
I would not be surprised if there were a few lushes at the office who keep a bottle in their desks. Our culture is pretty laid back. But I imagine it would tighten up pretty quickly should an incident occur.
I wouldn't rule out serving alcohol at the office, but make sure everybody's really cool with each other first. If you had an instinctive reaction like "oh of course everyone's cool!", then they're not and you're about to find out what it's like to be Michael Scott.
s/beer/caffeinated drinks/g
I don't understand why companies don't promote an ice cream culture. Have custom flavors available throughout the day, a stocked freezer, etc. Sit back and have a sundae while discussing code problems. Try new toppings/sauces now and then, etc.
I don't drink beer. When I was younger, it was mostly a financial issue. As I'm older, I just don't like the taste. "Oh! But try this one - it's got a bold whatever with a hint of foo aftertaste". I don't care. It's beer. If it tasted so radically different from beer, it would be called something else. It's still beer.
Tech conferences often revolve around a subcontext of beer. "Let's go grab a beer!" Beers provided at open bars. Etc. I get it - it's a social lubricant. But... it's so ingrained in many cultures and subcultures (much like sports) that not participating is an odd signal. With more pushy types, ordering a non-beer gets a weird look and I have to explain myself multiple times. I shouldn't have to.
Ordering food, there's generally no such pushback - even vegans at the table generally don't say anything when I order a chicken sandwich. But order a water or coke when the rest of the table's ordering specialty beers, and 7 times out of 10 there's someone who questions you.
Again... I don't get the beer culture, and would love to see it replaced with nothing, or something else like ice cream.
EDIT: Sometimes people ask me if my non-beer attitude is a religious thing. It's not. I occasionally drink alcohol (wine/spirits) because I like the taste.
EDIT 2: What I was trying to get at above was that promoting a beer culture will necessarily be somewhat exclusionary, and some people may be on the defensive or feel like 'outsiders' at the outset. If you know you're doing that - you only want to hire people with a shared love of beer - that's great. But... that's probably not the point of your business. For pintlabs.com, for example, that is the point of their business (local startup focusing on beer - gentle plug for them)