Ask HN: How do you find "coders with families" in the Bay Area?
4 comments
Experienced developers have to weigh-in 150k + great benefits for their families at established tech companies their family can brag about vs mostly unstable jobs at thousands of small companies nobody knows about. Experience may also mean they've been burned by promises at least once before. For every early employee at Facebook there are hundreds in the Valley who never saw the upside. If you are looking outside of SV a developer with a family would need a house and housing is expensive - so salary would matter a lot.
I am a tech founder too, and all of the above just reminds me this is a race. You have to be better to survive, so pick something that your company offers that is better than the rest. Culture? Team? Product? Mission? An odd perk? A brand reputation?
When all else fails, look at Wall Street. Most New York finance jobs are terrible at all non-tangible criteria anyone would have for a job, so they catch smart people with higher salaries and burn through them by the thousands.
I've found the best hires are referrals of your best people. If someone you respect is already working for you and they refer someone they respect to you that is a big sign you are doing something right.
I am a tech founder too, and all of the above just reminds me this is a race. You have to be better to survive, so pick something that your company offers that is better than the rest. Culture? Team? Product? Mission? An odd perk? A brand reputation?
When all else fails, look at Wall Street. Most New York finance jobs are terrible at all non-tangible criteria anyone would have for a job, so they catch smart people with higher salaries and burn through them by the thousands.
I've found the best hires are referrals of your best people. If someone you respect is already working for you and they refer someone they respect to you that is a big sign you are doing something right.
Just state "40 hour workweek" as a pro if you're running job ads. There might be a different problem though if you're only getting young inexperienced applicants, are you offering a high enough salary and going through the right channels? Most experienced programmers/engineers use their networks to find jobs instead of looking through ads, maybe use your network or LinkedIn to find employees. There's also the possibility that they don't want to shoulder the risk of having to find another job soon if your venture goes belly-up. You're looking to fill a risky job with someone who isn't really in a position to take a risk.
Be somewhat careful how you word your ad, age discrimination is a thing and you just want to avoid any appearances that will make a rejected applicant think about getting a lawyer involved.
Be somewhat careful how you word your ad, age discrimination is a thing and you just want to avoid any appearances that will make a rejected applicant think about getting a lawyer involved.
I think you said it quite nicely here. Why not just say the same thing in your job ad?
Thanks. I guess I am concerned with the founding team not seeming hardworking enough to succeed.
I think I may just end up doing that as a test. Thanks again.
I think I may just end up doing that as a test. Thanks again.
You should just say that directly then. Something along the lines of...
"Us founders are blitzing 80+ hours a week. If you're young and energetic, come join us. However, we'd also like the wisdom and experience of someone more senior. We understand you have a family and will need more life balance, and we're very cool with that."
I'd find that refreshing in a job ad. I'm 42 with a family, btw.
"Us founders are blitzing 80+ hours a week. If you're young and energetic, come join us. However, we'd also like the wisdom and experience of someone more senior. We understand you have a family and will need more life balance, and we're very cool with that."
I'd find that refreshing in a job ad. I'm 42 with a family, btw.
I have a family and wouldn't reply to that ad at all
"Our team is passionate and growing quickly. Perks include a healthy work/life balance."
Meh "a healthy work/life balance" to me is a pre-condition. If you use that phrase with the word 'perks' in the same sentence I'm moving on...
That wording doesn't sound very attractive. Down right scary actually.
Which part? The 80+ hour a week part, or the wanting people with family part? I think the OP's point was that killing yourself at a startup is a young person's game, and he still wants to hire people more experienced people with families who are looking for ~40 hours. That would unusual in many startups, so I think it is worth mentioning. How would you say it better?
"Us founders are blitzing 80+ hours a week."
"If you're young and energetic, come join us."
I think everyone in the company, at an early stage, should have a mindset of ensuring things are getting done, rather then working X number of hours. It should never be about the number of hours your working - some weeks it may be 100 hours, then some weeks it may be 30 hours. It should always be about building a great company and finding those people that are passionate about the same, family or not.
Also, it is discrimination to actually not accept candidates based on whether they have kids or not. We never ask family/personal related questions in our interviews, as it is against the law to do so.
As one of those older, experienced coders with a family, I'll tell you right now that statements like "it should never be about the number of hours your [sic] working" immediately sets off my skepticism. Part of having a family is that you have responsibilities outside of work, and these are not responsibilities you can change easily like a job. You can't honestly commit to a job with open ended hours requirements. You can occasionally do long work weeks and sacrifice your family, but that builds a relationship debt you must pay back in the future, so it'll happen very sporadically.
I've been around silicon valley for two decades. I know how fast I work, how startups work, and how to contribute to a team. I know that if you hire me as an individual contributor, I will be ahead of you in line for equity losses and behind you in line for financial rewards, which affects my motivation. If I'm doing my own startup, then the situation is entirely different and I will move heaven and earth to get the job done, and try to make it work with my family, but this isn't something that can be carried on too long without burning out.
One day, you will find that even when people pull 100 hour weeks willingly, they stop being effective at half that load, and end up making mistakes from exhaustion. They slowly burn out, quit, get cranky, and you have big emotional explosions at work about the workload. If you want your company to succeed, and retain good people, you have to find a way not to burn out your people, and this applies to any age. Crunches shouldn't last more than a couple weeks and should be an exception to the norm.
I've been around silicon valley for two decades. I know how fast I work, how startups work, and how to contribute to a team. I know that if you hire me as an individual contributor, I will be ahead of you in line for equity losses and behind you in line for financial rewards, which affects my motivation. If I'm doing my own startup, then the situation is entirely different and I will move heaven and earth to get the job done, and try to make it work with my family, but this isn't something that can be carried on too long without burning out.
One day, you will find that even when people pull 100 hour weeks willingly, they stop being effective at half that load, and end up making mistakes from exhaustion. They slowly burn out, quit, get cranky, and you have big emotional explosions at work about the workload. If you want your company to succeed, and retain good people, you have to find a way not to burn out your people, and this applies to any age. Crunches shouldn't last more than a couple weeks and should be an exception to the norm.
When I post my jobs for engineers #1 and #2 for my startup, I keep getting younger less experienced coders that are willing to work those unrealistic hours. I don't seem to get those "coders with families" even applying to my jobs. Have they been scared off?
Is this happening because it is a small venture-backed startup, so crazy hours/dedication are implied? How do I shake that impression?
Is it a function of the skills requested? (1 Ruby data collection and 1 Rails)
I would much rather get those experienced coders that will want to work 40 hours. That's plenty of time to get a ton done and if they don't get enough accomplished in that time it's probably my fault as the CTO.
Have you guys had any luck with certain methods to reach those guys specifically? I want to somehow express that it is ok to have work-life balance but not end up with lazy candidates. My co-founder and I will of course continue to work those 80+ hours but that makes sense because we are the founders.
Any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance.