Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?
27 comments
I'm a little appalled by the number of people who apparently think cheating is fine. Is integrity so uncommon?
As I stated another comment, the problem I have with cheating is that it's dishonest, as you're passing someone else's work off as your own. It demonstrates a lack of respect for the person who did the work, the person you're doing the work for, every student who worked hard enough to do the work themselves, and yourself.
As I stated another comment, the problem I have with cheating is that it's dishonest, as you're passing someone else's work off as your own. It demonstrates a lack of respect for the person who did the work, the person you're doing the work for, every student who worked hard enough to do the work themselves, and yourself.
There are other classes of cheating beyond copying another's work. For example, in many of the pre-college math classes I had, looking up the answers to the odd-numbered problems in the back of the book was considered cheating. You couldn't necessarily complete a homework this way, as you had to show your work, but you could verify your own answers. While I never bothered to do this (I did fine in math at the level these started appearing anyway), I didn't care that others did.
Also, many of these classes considered it "cheating" to program your calculator to compute solutions for you. Usually, on a programmable calculator, the program would only substitute for memorizing formulas. Memorizing formulas is pointless, as if you eventually end up using one often enough, you'll memorize it anyway. Again, I never actually did this (I preferred to just learn how the formula was derived), but I occasionally helped others do it.
Also, many of these classes considered it "cheating" to program your calculator to compute solutions for you. Usually, on a programmable calculator, the program would only substitute for memorizing formulas. Memorizing formulas is pointless, as if you eventually end up using one often enough, you'll memorize it anyway. Again, I never actually did this (I preferred to just learn how the formula was derived), but I occasionally helped others do it.
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Define 'cheating'. I've never cheated, but I voted 'it depends', because, as always, everything depends on intentions and circumstances. I can perfectly understand people saying 'this assignment/test is ridiculous. I'm not going to put any effort in it and rather copy/cheat and spend my time in a more productive way'.
Now I don't think you should copy from someone if that person objects. However, I've never worried about allowing people to copy my work: I've already invested the time and as long as it doesn't put my work in jeopardy (that was always my only requirement: don't just copy, but expend the minimal effort required to hide it), why not share? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of what is worth their time. As has been argued many times, especially at forums like HN: schools really don't know what is good for their students. Schools are 'one size fits all'. We know better (which doesn't mean that we think schools are always wrong, which doesn't mean we don't take their advice seriously, etc.)
Now I don't think you should copy from someone if that person objects. However, I've never worried about allowing people to copy my work: I've already invested the time and as long as it doesn't put my work in jeopardy (that was always my only requirement: don't just copy, but expend the minimal effort required to hide it), why not share? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of what is worth their time. As has been argued many times, especially at forums like HN: schools really don't know what is good for their students. Schools are 'one size fits all'. We know better (which doesn't mean that we think schools are always wrong, which doesn't mean we don't take their advice seriously, etc.)
I can perfectly understand people saying 'this assignment/test is ridiculous. I'm not going to put any effort in it and rather copy/cheat and spend my time in a more productive way'.
I can understand why someone might say that, but it would still be immoral and dishonest of them to cheat. When you take a class, you enter into a contract (often an explicit academic honesty policy) to not cheat. If you find the assignment ridiculous, then don't take the class, register your objections with the professor, or don't hand in the assignment. You can't ethically disregard the terms of a contract just because you deem them "ridiculous."
I can understand why someone might say that, but it would still be immoral and dishonest of them to cheat. When you take a class, you enter into a contract (often an explicit academic honesty policy) to not cheat. If you find the assignment ridiculous, then don't take the class, register your objections with the professor, or don't hand in the assignment. You can't ethically disregard the terms of a contract just because you deem them "ridiculous."
> When you take a class, you enter into a contract (often an explicit academic honesty policy) to not cheat.
There's quite a difference between a university where you're on your own volition and high school where you're obligated to stay. The morality of cheating in high school is a lot different from cheating in a university.
There's quite a difference between a university where you're on your own volition and high school where you're obligated to stay. The morality of cheating in high school is a lot different from cheating in a university.
Bullshit. You can't separate them like that when your admission to a given university is based largely on your academic performance in high school. Your presence there is not just by your own choice; you're competing with others for limited enrollment. By cheating to get enrolled in the first place you deprive honest students of academic opportunity.
You're equating 'cheating' with 'lacking knowledge/skill', which is unfounded. In the preceding discussion we are talking about cases where cheating would be considered ethical by some, because the trade-off is acceptable. For instance, someone may be on their way to becoming a very good physicist and doesn't care for compulsory german. Who cares if a current physics professor ever cheated at german?
You're equating 'cheating' with 'lacking knowledge/skill'
I said nothing of the kind. I am saying it is an unfair advantage in obtaining academic opportunity over equally or more capable students who are more honest. Even between two students of exactly equal ability, the dishonest student has the advantage.
For instance, someone may be on their way to becoming a very good physicist and doesn't care for compulsory german.
What part of this implies they deserve a high grade in German? Would a student doing equally well in German but poorly in Physics (because he doesn't care for it) deserve a high grade in Physics? Do either of them deserve higher grades than an honest student earning grades slightly below each of them? Does that student deserve to go to an inferior college?
I said nothing of the kind. I am saying it is an unfair advantage in obtaining academic opportunity over equally or more capable students who are more honest. Even between two students of exactly equal ability, the dishonest student has the advantage.
For instance, someone may be on their way to becoming a very good physicist and doesn't care for compulsory german.
What part of this implies they deserve a high grade in German? Would a student doing equally well in German but poorly in Physics (because he doesn't care for it) deserve a high grade in Physics? Do either of them deserve higher grades than an honest student earning grades slightly below each of them? Does that student deserve to go to an inferior college?
I am saying it is an unfair advantage in obtaining academic opportunity
That's a US-specific problem. Here anyone that has obtained a degree can enroll in pretty much any course at any university/college.
What part of this implies they deserve a high grade in German?
People that cheat seldomnly have high grade averages in the subject they cheat in. The just manage to pass the subject. But that's also a US specific problem. Grade averages are much less an issue here.
That's a US-specific problem. Here anyone that has obtained a degree can enroll in pretty much any course at any university/college.
What part of this implies they deserve a high grade in German?
People that cheat seldomnly have high grade averages in the subject they cheat in. The just manage to pass the subject. But that's also a US specific problem. Grade averages are much less an issue here.
It is not a US-specific problem just because it isn't a problem in your locale, nor would being US-specific invalidate anything I've said.
We have different opinions on what is ethical. Disregarding the terms of a contract, or the law for what that matters, may be perfectly ethical in my book. There is always a difference between the letter of the contract and the intention of the contract. The letter is the same for everyone, but the intention isn't.
For instance, the law must forbid jaywalking, to be able to punish those that jaywalk and endanger themselves or others. However, when I get a red light at four in the morning and I don't see a car for a mile in both directions, then I will jaywalk. If a cop sees me, he should understand that the law wasn't meant to cover that case, even though it does. It's intended to protect people, not to be applied by the letter.
The same holds for the contract you have with a school. It must forbid cheating, to prevent people from harming themselves. That doesn't mean that every individual case of cheating is necessarily immoral. Circumstances and intentions are exactly why we need courts: to interpret the intention of the law in many different cases.
For instance, the law must forbid jaywalking, to be able to punish those that jaywalk and endanger themselves or others. However, when I get a red light at four in the morning and I don't see a car for a mile in both directions, then I will jaywalk. If a cop sees me, he should understand that the law wasn't meant to cover that case, even though it does. It's intended to protect people, not to be applied by the letter.
The same holds for the contract you have with a school. It must forbid cheating, to prevent people from harming themselves. That doesn't mean that every individual case of cheating is necessarily immoral. Circumstances and intentions are exactly why we need courts: to interpret the intention of the law in many different cases.
So you're basically arguing that there are situations when cheating is ethical if it wasn't the intent of the academic honestly policy to disallow it. Let's suppose that is true: what is a case of cheating that academic honesty policies aren't intended to disallow? Certainly a student cheating because they find the assignment "ridiculous" is very much what an academic policy is explicitly designed to outlaw.
The same holds for the contract you have with a school. It must forbid cheating, to prevent people from harming themselves.
The primary goal of an academic honesty policy is clearly not "to prevent people from harming themselves."
The same holds for the contract you have with a school. It must forbid cheating, to prevent people from harming themselves.
The primary goal of an academic honesty policy is clearly not "to prevent people from harming themselves."
From a Yale's perspective they don't mind that some rich student is cheating if they are not blatant, because it does not harm the school's reputation to let them relative to the benefit of having that type of student graduate. Having an football player cheat at Virginia Tech is inline with the schools larger goals relative to having that student fail.
Now all schools are going to make a pretense of an academic honesty policy, but some schools actively use that as a screen to let students cheat their way to C's.
Edit: I still think cheating harms fellow students, but plenty of schools let fairly rampant cheating go on for years.
Now all schools are going to make a pretense of an academic honesty policy, but some schools actively use that as a screen to let students cheat their way to C's.
Edit: I still think cheating harms fellow students, but plenty of schools let fairly rampant cheating go on for years.
The difference between a law and a contract is that you can choose to not sign the contract if you don't agree with the terms, so arguing after the fact that you will only obey the terms of the contract that you like makes me hope I never have to do business with you.
My argument does not apply to the case were two parties have fully negotiated the terms of a contract.
It applies to cases where the terms are not negotiable. If thousands of others have signed the same contract, then there is no room for individual variations in the terms, even if that would benefit both parties. Try to get a different contract with your local library or a university: impossible, even though it would be in you, their and societies best interest.
The pragmatic choice is to sign the contract, but break it in a way advantageous to all parties involved.
It applies to cases where the terms are not negotiable. If thousands of others have signed the same contract, then there is no room for individual variations in the terms, even if that would benefit both parties. Try to get a different contract with your local library or a university: impossible, even though it would be in you, their and societies best interest.
The pragmatic choice is to sign the contract, but break it in a way advantageous to all parties involved.
"The same holds for the contract you have with a school."
You can not have a "contract" with the school. The student is being coerced, to a degree not dissimilar to a prisoner. (I am not saying that a student is exactly the same as a prisoner, because I can think of many relevant differences, I'm just saying the coercion level is similar; it is unilateral, the scope is huge, and there is no way out for most of it.) The concept of "contract" is not relevant.
If you think cheating is bad only because it is a violation of contract, then cheating is not bad. (You may not agree with the word "only"; I am making a logical statement here. If you think it's bad for other reasons, as I do, then that does not falsify that logical statement.)
You can not have a "contract" with the school. The student is being coerced, to a degree not dissimilar to a prisoner. (I am not saying that a student is exactly the same as a prisoner, because I can think of many relevant differences, I'm just saying the coercion level is similar; it is unilateral, the scope is huge, and there is no way out for most of it.) The concept of "contract" is not relevant.
If you think cheating is bad only because it is a violation of contract, then cheating is not bad. (You may not agree with the word "only"; I am making a logical statement here. If you think it's bad for other reasons, as I do, then that does not falsify that logical statement.)
As another commenter suggested, there is a stark difference between high school and universities. high schools in the US can be justifiably compared to prisons in this sense, but universities cannot.
I think the comparison with prisons is pretty bunk. Students and their parents get to choose which school they'd like to attend; for many people, that means an enormous amount of school choice. With home schooling in many states and the GED, students have still more choice. And of course, you're free to drop out -- you just have to be willing to accept the consequences.
I did until high school. Then I realized it's too much effort for something I care too little about(my grade).
I'm curious why you'd think cheating would correlate with laziness. I think you underestimate the work involved in cheating.
I've passed on cheating on multiple occasions in middle and high school years purely out of laziness. It would usually involve some laborious homework assignment. A friend would have done it. He would loan me the notebook. And it would just sit in my bag without me ever spending time to copy it.
In middle school we had to take an Accelerated Reader test on the computer each week. I was not prepared one day. So I went to two of the three computers and deleted the shortcut to the program. With only one computer operating, my turn to take the exam never came:) They'd to call the IT people from downtown to fix the shortcuts on the two computers. Silly middle school days:)
Now days I am almost guilty of being too honest. ie. I will skip an assignment because I thought it was a waste of time, tell the professor exactly what I thought and receive biased grading for rest of the semester. (At the end of the semester, though, the professors respect you a whole lot more.)
I'm curious why you'd think cheating would correlate with laziness. I think you underestimate the work involved in cheating.
I've passed on cheating on multiple occasions in middle and high school years purely out of laziness. It would usually involve some laborious homework assignment. A friend would have done it. He would loan me the notebook. And it would just sit in my bag without me ever spending time to copy it.
In middle school we had to take an Accelerated Reader test on the computer each week. I was not prepared one day. So I went to two of the three computers and deleted the shortcut to the program. With only one computer operating, my turn to take the exam never came:) They'd to call the IT people from downtown to fix the shortcuts on the two computers. Silly middle school days:)
Now days I am almost guilty of being too honest. ie. I will skip an assignment because I thought it was a waste of time, tell the professor exactly what I thought and receive biased grading for rest of the semester. (At the end of the semester, though, the professors respect you a whole lot more.)
I don't think that, others in #startups do. Interestingly, those who were significantly older were making the connection between cheaters and lazy workers who would cheat out of their work.
Never cared enough about marks to cheat. Still don't.
From a moral perspective, cheating is bad in that it devalues the marks earned by students who didn't. This is only true if you believe that the marks are worth anything to begin with. That, and it's downright rude.
From a moral perspective, cheating is bad in that it devalues the marks earned by students who didn't. This is only true if you believe that the marks are worth anything to begin with. That, and it's downright rude.
I guess I'm the first person to say that yes, I did cheat, and no, I don't feel guilty.
What matters is getting the right answer. If you stop before you get the right answer, then you're responsible for that. If you take a shortcut to get the right answer, then it's not a bad thing until you get to a situation where you refuse to do what it takes to get the right answer.
Given a choice between wasting my time on meaningless schoolwork and cheating and keeping the time to myself, I'll take cheating, and if I went back I'd cheat again.
What matters is getting the right answer. If you stop before you get the right answer, then you're responsible for that. If you take a shortcut to get the right answer, then it's not a bad thing until you get to a situation where you refuse to do what it takes to get the right answer.
Given a choice between wasting my time on meaningless schoolwork and cheating and keeping the time to myself, I'll take cheating, and if I went back I'd cheat again.
Why bother going to school if this is how you view it?
I think the problem with cheating is that it's fundamentally dishonest. It's not that you're using someone else's work to accomplish something, as we all do this every day in our jobs, it's that you're lying and presenting that work as your own.
I think the problem with cheating is that it's fundamentally dishonest. It's not that you're using someone else's work to accomplish something, as we all do this every day in our jobs, it's that you're lying and presenting that work as your own.
Why bother going to school? Because some of us are legally obliged to, and not doing so would be breaking the law.
It's dishonest, yes, but when you're in a situation where your two choices are spending time learning something on your own versus not copying a busywork homework assignment from a friend... the first stops seeming so unethical.
It's dishonest, yes, but when you're in a situation where your two choices are spending time learning something on your own versus not copying a busywork homework assignment from a friend... the first stops seeming so unethical.
You may be legally required to be present, but that doesn't mean you have to do anything. I have no particular problem with copying busywork, but claiming you're required to do any such work is a cop out. (Also it is shockingly easy in the US to get out of the legal requirement of attending school, even of one's own volition when they've reached high school age.)
You can do nothing, but if you're the type that wants an education (i.e. a decent university with math, physics, bio, cs, or etc courses available), you have to comply with the demands of the system.
So it's ok to be dishonest and comply with a broken system as long as you get what you want?
You're hurting no one through your so-called "dishonesty."
Do you have a better solution? The system cannot be fixed to a complete extent quickly. My solution is to avoid busywork classes and get high grades in the busywork classes so I can just skip assignments instead as often as possible.
Do you have a better one?
Do you have a better solution? The system cannot be fixed to a complete extent quickly. My solution is to avoid busywork classes and get high grades in the busywork classes so I can just skip assignments instead as often as possible.
Do you have a better one?
You're hurting no one through your so-called "dishonesty."
Not true. You harm the honest students that are denied academic opportunity because dishonest students have higher grades. And by the way, it isn't "so-called" dishonesty, it is by definition dishonest. Whether you regard it as ethical or not does not change the meaning of the word.
Do you have a better solution?
What you propose is not a solution at all. It is an exploit.
Not true. You harm the honest students that are denied academic opportunity because dishonest students have higher grades. And by the way, it isn't "so-called" dishonesty, it is by definition dishonest. Whether you regard it as ethical or not does not change the meaning of the word.
Do you have a better solution?
What you propose is not a solution at all. It is an exploit.
In terms of what it does for me, it's a solution, since it gets rid of the problem I have. Isn't it?
Either way, I'd like to hear other solutions. I'm not content wasting my life away with busywork assigned in school, and I do not like the fact that mild academic dishonesty is necessary to combat that, so I would gladly listen to other suggestions.
By the way, 'mild' is mild. I'm not talking about stealing code or copying projects or anything. I'm talking about (every so often) asking a friend for answers to questions on near-worthless homework assignments.
As a side note, I'm not exactly sure why I'm being downvoted. Is there a more reasonable way to discuss this?
Either way, I'd like to hear other solutions. I'm not content wasting my life away with busywork assigned in school, and I do not like the fact that mild academic dishonesty is necessary to combat that, so I would gladly listen to other suggestions.
By the way, 'mild' is mild. I'm not talking about stealing code or copying projects or anything. I'm talking about (every so often) asking a friend for answers to questions on near-worthless homework assignments.
As a side note, I'm not exactly sure why I'm being downvoted. Is there a more reasonable way to discuss this?
In terms of what it does for me, it's a solution, since it gets rid of the problem I have.
You could say the same for theft, robbery, and murder. At some point in deciding how to act you must consider the effect your actions have on others. I call it an exploit because it exploits the broken nature of the system which rewards dishonest behavior. Your "solution" merely perpetuates the problem for everyone.
academic dishonesty is necessary
It is not necessary to achieve either of the aims you have described (not wasting your life away and getting into a decent university). The former can be achieved by not doing the work. The latter can be achieved by doing the work to earn adequate grades. Neither requires dishonesty.
It is not even necessary to achieve both. Withdrawing from school and getting a GED avoids wasting one's life away there, and getting into a decent college can be facilitated by enrolling in a community college and obtaining the appropriate test scores. This does not require dishonesty, wasting time, or forgoing educational opportunity.
I'm not exactly sure why I'm being downvoted.
FWIW, it isn't me. I don't like drive-by downvoting either.
You could say the same for theft, robbery, and murder. At some point in deciding how to act you must consider the effect your actions have on others. I call it an exploit because it exploits the broken nature of the system which rewards dishonest behavior. Your "solution" merely perpetuates the problem for everyone.
academic dishonesty is necessary
It is not necessary to achieve either of the aims you have described (not wasting your life away and getting into a decent university). The former can be achieved by not doing the work. The latter can be achieved by doing the work to earn adequate grades. Neither requires dishonesty.
It is not even necessary to achieve both. Withdrawing from school and getting a GED avoids wasting one's life away there, and getting into a decent college can be facilitated by enrolling in a community college and obtaining the appropriate test scores. This does not require dishonesty, wasting time, or forgoing educational opportunity.
I'm not exactly sure why I'm being downvoted.
FWIW, it isn't me. I don't like drive-by downvoting either.
The fact that somebody is denied academic opportunity is not the fault of the person who cheats but of the social/economic system that does not allow everybody to have academic opportunities.
Not all the subjects at school suck so much, so you don't have to cheat at everything. And even if you cheat, it doesn't necessarily mean you must cheat 100%, e.g. at all questions and you could still learn something.
I don't like people who cheat a lot, at that point going to school is becoming useless indeed, but when you don't have enough freedom to choose your subjects or they are taught just to be taught, a bit of cheating eliminates a lot of headaches.
I don't like people who cheat a lot, at that point going to school is becoming useless indeed, but when you don't have enough freedom to choose your subjects or they are taught just to be taught, a bit of cheating eliminates a lot of headaches.
"What matters is getting the right answer."
Oh, so it was your principled commitment to "what matters" that caused you to cheat, eh?
Oh, so it was your principled commitment to "what matters" that caused you to cheat, eh?
That's a bullshit way of phrasing it. Let's stick to how I said it.
What matters is that you end up with the right thing. If you can easily get the right thing by copying somebody else, then do that. That doesn't excuse your not learning how to do it on your own, but there's no nobility to finding out the answer yourself, beyond what personal satisfaction it brings you.
I code using other people's languages and other people's plug-ins. I take visual ideas from other people's graphic designs. Then I bend them to fit my own purposes. When somebody else has solved part of the problem I want to fix, there is no honor in my repeating their work.
What matters is that you end up with the right thing. If you can easily get the right thing by copying somebody else, then do that. That doesn't excuse your not learning how to do it on your own, but there's no nobility to finding out the answer yourself, beyond what personal satisfaction it brings you.
I code using other people's languages and other people's plug-ins. I take visual ideas from other people's graphic designs. Then I bend them to fit my own purposes. When somebody else has solved part of the problem I want to fix, there is no honor in my repeating their work.
There's no honor in taking someone else's hard work and passing it off as your own.
Looking at someone else's website for visual inspiration is a far cry from copying someone else's paper or having a friend do your math homework. Please tell me you see the difference.
Looking at someone else's website for visual inspiration is a far cry from copying someone else's paper or having a friend do your math homework. Please tell me you see the difference.
"Cheating" does not necessarily mean taking someone else's work. I have cheated before by taking my own work (usually equations and the like) into exams in which I was not supposed to have them. This is technically "cheating," but what it really came down to was that I didn't want to spend hours memorizing information I would only use on one test and then immediately forget.
If you don't like the way a teacher or a school runs things, then don't cheat. Vote with your feet.
Requiring students to memorize has as much to do with the logistics of testing as it does with learning. If you think the school is being lazy and making it easier for them to test at the expense of substantive (non-rote) learning, then why go there?
Even if this is high school, there are still choices. There are people who have gotten into the Ivies with a GED. If you are the right kind of person, you will do substantive work, be recognized and succeed. You can add the drop out, get a GED and do volunteer work step to this plan:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2009/1/24/11657/1141
If most people voted with their feet, then schools would get a lot better, fast. Instead, people cheat, which enables the schools to keep up their appearances. You're just as guilty of propagating the paper-reality of testing over actual learning.
Requiring students to memorize has as much to do with the logistics of testing as it does with learning. If you think the school is being lazy and making it easier for them to test at the expense of substantive (non-rote) learning, then why go there?
Even if this is high school, there are still choices. There are people who have gotten into the Ivies with a GED. If you are the right kind of person, you will do substantive work, be recognized and succeed. You can add the drop out, get a GED and do volunteer work step to this plan:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2009/1/24/11657/1141
If most people voted with their feet, then schools would get a lot better, fast. Instead, people cheat, which enables the schools to keep up their appearances. You're just as guilty of propagating the paper-reality of testing over actual learning.
> If most people voted with their feet, then schools would get a lot better
You might as well campaign for a general strike. "Vote with your feet" is the age-old leper's bell of market fundamentalists, who deny the reality of tough collective-action problems.
I wish there were some way to confiscate your diploma and force you to live the life of an average high school dropout. But of course, you surely believe that you are exceptional, destined from birth to live out a rags-to-riches tale no matter what. I would like to see just how far your GED and volunteer work would get you.
> you will do substantive work, be recognized and succeed
What reason is there to believe this? As far as American middle-class society is concerned, someone without a high-school diploma is a non-person.
You might as well campaign for a general strike. "Vote with your feet" is the age-old leper's bell of market fundamentalists, who deny the reality of tough collective-action problems.
I wish there were some way to confiscate your diploma and force you to live the life of an average high school dropout. But of course, you surely believe that you are exceptional, destined from birth to live out a rags-to-riches tale no matter what. I would like to see just how far your GED and volunteer work would get you.
> you will do substantive work, be recognized and succeed
What reason is there to believe this? As far as American middle-class society is concerned, someone without a high-school diploma is a non-person.
What you wrote is mostly just rationalization, in my humble opinion.
Someone might argue that part of schoolwork is proving that you can do boring routine work. In this respect you only have the long-term incentive of graduating and there is no immediate reward.
So far I have never found an instance in life where doing boring routine work was at all something I wanted to do. The boring routine work I do have to do I constantly try and figure out ways around.
Apparently even when those ways around it require you to lie and steal the work of others. What won't you do to avoid boring routine work?
And isn't this the very definition of laziness? Being willing to cross ethical boundaries to avoid unpleasant work?
And isn't this the very definition of laziness? Being willing to cross ethical boundaries to avoid unpleasant work?
When did I say I wasn't lazy?
I see the sort of laziness that strives to avoid tedium and boredom as a virtue.
I see the sort of laziness that strives to avoid tedium and boredom as a virtue.
I cheated a lot in high school, a couple times in college. I don't feel guilty, but now I know the only person I cheated was myself.
I think it depends on the form of cheating. Cheating on anything you can do through learning - yeah, that's cheating yourself. But (in my high school at least) I've noticed that many homework assignments are pure busyword: there is no intellectual value to be gained through their completion, and all you are doing is wasting your time when in reality you could put it to a better use.
In those cases, I would not feel guilty in the least, and do not think I would be cheating myself either.
In those cases, I would not feel guilty in the least, and do not think I would be cheating myself either.
I would have said the exact same thing at the time. As it turns out, many of the "busywork" tasks are things that you'll want to be able to do quickly, easily, and accurately as you build on your skillset.
Repetition is how you optimize your brain. Quick and accurate execution of inner-loop code is critical. The more you can optimize, the more effective of a tool your brain will be.
Repetition is how you optimize your brain. Quick and accurate execution of inner-loop code is critical. The more you can optimize, the more effective of a tool your brain will be.
If some work isn't worthwhile, then doing it poorly won't matter in the long run. On the other hand, if it is worthwhile work, then doing it poorly is bad for you.
You're just rationalizing. It doesn't matter how much value you place on the assignment. It only matters if you cut corners.
Wait, what?
It doesn't matter how much value I place on an assignment? Yes, to me, it does!
I do not understand who decides what 'matters' in this case. I see it as such: To me, a value-less assignment which takes up a disproportionate amount of time is wrong; thus, make it take less time. If it gives me no value in return, and I'm not hurting anything by cutting corners, then I most certainly will cut corners. Is there a better solution?
It's a trade-off. Cut corners, learn more on your own because you have time. Don't cut corners and be honest, learn less.
It doesn't matter how much value I place on an assignment? Yes, to me, it does!
I do not understand who decides what 'matters' in this case. I see it as such: To me, a value-less assignment which takes up a disproportionate amount of time is wrong; thus, make it take less time. If it gives me no value in return, and I'm not hurting anything by cutting corners, then I most certainly will cut corners. Is there a better solution?
It's a trade-off. Cut corners, learn more on your own because you have time. Don't cut corners and be honest, learn less.
What are you really saying? People who don't share your opinions about software testing probably cheated in school? Cuz that's how I'm reading your intro to this poll.
I like to go for cinches. I like to shoot fish in a barrel. But I like to do it after the water has run out - Warren Buffet
I cheat and break rules or laws sometimes but I don't cheat other people in a way it would harm them. I also know that I'm taking risks since there might be consequences.
I have never bought that hard work or going over the highest fence would be beneficial to anyone. I like more working smart, fast or even taking shortcuts by cheating than wasting my time on something that doesn't even matter.
School is a another reality where you are rewarded by the complexity and how hard you work, not by what its the most simplest solution.
I cheat and break rules or laws sometimes but I don't cheat other people in a way it would harm them. I also know that I'm taking risks since there might be consequences.
I have never bought that hard work or going over the highest fence would be beneficial to anyone. I like more working smart, fast or even taking shortcuts by cheating than wasting my time on something that doesn't even matter.
School is a another reality where you are rewarded by the complexity and how hard you work, not by what its the most simplest solution.
I had too much of an ego in my abilities to believe someone else had a better answer than me. So no.
Let me add that back in school, I immediately lost respect for anyone I caught peeking at my papers. I never hid my tests, as a matter of fact I pushed the papers forward for all to see, but it wasn't out sharing or kindness, more like contempt for anyone who would lower himself to call my work their own. I felt like I could withstand scrutiny and justify my work.
It was even better when the smart kids copied from me, specially when our eyes met and I caught them cheating: it was established right then and there who was whose bitch :-P
Two real-life problems I have had with my non-cheating principle are:
1) My inability to trust the quality of most people's work, specially if I know about the work and I'm passionate about it. I have a habit of going over people's code with an eye towards catching their "inevitable mistakes". My own mistakes pass in peace, undisturbed, of course.
2) Inability to take hints and advice. I take advice when I seek it. Unsolicited advice, specially when others are there to overhear it, or when I feel like I could have arrived at the same conclusion on my own given enough time; such advice goes unheeded. I might even deliberately make a mishap just because someone helped me mid-task.
It was even better when the smart kids copied from me, specially when our eyes met and I caught them cheating: it was established right then and there who was whose bitch :-P
Two real-life problems I have had with my non-cheating principle are:
1) My inability to trust the quality of most people's work, specially if I know about the work and I'm passionate about it. I have a habit of going over people's code with an eye towards catching their "inevitable mistakes". My own mistakes pass in peace, undisturbed, of course.
2) Inability to take hints and advice. I take advice when I seek it. Unsolicited advice, specially when others are there to overhear it, or when I feel like I could have arrived at the same conclusion on my own given enough time; such advice goes unheeded. I might even deliberately make a mishap just because someone helped me mid-task.
I did try to cheat. However, it's much more common thing in Poland than USA (or so I heard).
I noticed however, that whenever I've selected material for cheating and then put it on those little sheets of paper I actually learned this material in the end. So cheating was a great way to learn something! Than, by simple logic taking what I prepared wasn't beneficial, as I could be caught.
I noticed however, that whenever I've selected material for cheating and then put it on those little sheets of paper I actually learned this material in the end. So cheating was a great way to learn something! Than, by simple logic taking what I prepared wasn't beneficial, as I could be caught.
In American schools (even universities), the use of cheat sheets is often officially permitted.
I'm not sure what to mark because I don't cheat on my own material but other students pay me to help them cheat.
replace "i dont cheat on my own material" with "drink" and "help them cheat" with "buy beer".
maybe you should have used a murder example, because I don't see the problem with minors drinking on private property if their parents don't mind.
as in the law stating if you around in during the commission of a felony, you're just as liable as the real criminals? sure, thats valid. the point i'm trying to make is that facilitating the crime makes you just as guilty, period. underage drinking isn't the topic at hand.
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Big hint: whatever you did in school becomes completely irrelevant. School and whatever you did there somehow ceases to be relevant when you grow up and get a job. Seriously, school is not a big thing.
I'm not talking about the skills and things you learn, these can be valuable. I'm talking about social order and customs.
I'm not talking about the skills and things you learn, these can be valuable. I'm talking about social order and customs.
I cheated once (Data Structures II), and I feel no guilt about it.
The homework: implement various data structures in C++. The professor then gave us a printed copy of a correct stack/vector/etc implementation. So the homework could properly be rephrased "type what you see on the page into the computer, then run gcc to catch typing errors."
He then threatened that he would catch us if one person transcribed the printouts and multiple people submitted the same transcription.
I split the typing work with some friends, and wrote a perl obfuscator. Suffice it to say, I learned more about programming writing the obfuscator than I did in the rest of the class.
The homework: implement various data structures in C++. The professor then gave us a printed copy of a correct stack/vector/etc implementation. So the homework could properly be rephrased "type what you see on the page into the computer, then run gcc to catch typing errors."
He then threatened that he would catch us if one person transcribed the printouts and multiple people submitted the same transcription.
I split the typing work with some friends, and wrote a perl obfuscator. Suffice it to say, I learned more about programming writing the obfuscator than I did in the rest of the class.
I don't think that's cheating. That's disobedience to arbitrary dictates. You didn't dodge the essential aspects of the exercise (learn what gcc does), just the accidental aspects.
That's like if a professor insisted that you use a particular brand of pen when writing the exam. Disobeying that order isn't cheating.
That's like if a professor insisted that you use a particular brand of pen when writing the exam. Disobeying that order isn't cheating.
Cheating was one of the few interesting school activities. We had to think of ways to cheat. It was like hacking. We had to monitor the teachers movement and think of ways to remain unseen and unheard while cheating. Do we arrange those that know the subject of the exam in ways in which they can help the others or do we use cheat sheets? In what circumstances was one better than the other? In which circumstances were both or neither appropriate? Cheating is an interesting technical problem and I enjoyed working on it.
Never cheated at school or university - would like to say cause I thought it was right but mostly cause the consequences of being caught multiplied by the likelyhood of being caught was greater then my risk appetite (well perhaps I did think it was just wrong at some base level as well).
I do get lazy with tests sometimes, and it does come back to bite me in the ass. Often.
I do get lazy with tests sometimes, and it does come back to bite me in the ass. Often.
Cheating in school is like cheating on a video game. All you're really doing is cheating yourself out of a challenge. That said, I've been known to cheat occasionally if the goal is to skip an annoying part of the game or a boring (but required) part of a school subject.
I've been out of school for years now and I don't think cheating on tests in school compares to anything in the "real" world. That is to say, I would never cheat employers or plagiarize code or documentation.
I guess I view school as something you do for yourself and if you really want to cheat yourself out of an education then who cares (especially since you're paying for school in the first place). I never put much stock into degrees and so I'm sure that colors my world view. I can understand that if you do think that degrees and grades actually mean anything then you might feel like cheating in school is unethical. Cheating others is a whole different story and it's a line I really don't like to cross.
I've been out of school for years now and I don't think cheating on tests in school compares to anything in the "real" world. That is to say, I would never cheat employers or plagiarize code or documentation.
I guess I view school as something you do for yourself and if you really want to cheat yourself out of an education then who cares (especially since you're paying for school in the first place). I never put much stock into degrees and so I'm sure that colors my world view. I can understand that if you do think that degrees and grades actually mean anything then you might feel like cheating in school is unethical. Cheating others is a whole different story and it's a line I really don't like to cross.
Some people cheat because they're not getting an education, what they're getting is a degree.
If someone has all the skills necessary to perform a given job, but an employer will not even finish reading their resume because they don't have a BA, I see no reason not to cheat in order to expedite the degree-earning process.
If you want to work with computers for a living, and you have a political science paper due in one day, what is going to be the better use of your time in the long-term, an all-night hack session, or actually doing your politics paper?
Also, I've never cheated, and I'm theorizing, but I think that people bright enough to carry out an A-worthy cheat could get the A if they did the work, and people that can't will either get a B or get caught. So in the end, it might be sort of fair anyway.
If someone has all the skills necessary to perform a given job, but an employer will not even finish reading their resume because they don't have a BA, I see no reason not to cheat in order to expedite the degree-earning process.
If you want to work with computers for a living, and you have a political science paper due in one day, what is going to be the better use of your time in the long-term, an all-night hack session, or actually doing your politics paper?
Also, I've never cheated, and I'm theorizing, but I think that people bright enough to carry out an A-worthy cheat could get the A if they did the work, and people that can't will either get a B or get caught. So in the end, it might be sort of fair anyway.
If the journey is more important than the destination, knowing shortcuts doesn't bring you any experiences. You would want to prolong the journey more and more and avoid shortcuts altogether. I wouldn't listen to the anecdotes of a known 'adventurer' who only took shortcuts. I like to listen to somebody who has been there, done that and bought the t-shirt, not to someone who only bought the t-shirt.
Likewise, if your 'friends' from school enter the same job market and get the job you could have instead, you pitty them for cheating and even helping them. You know what you're worth and can withstand the tasks they throw at you. While cheaters don't know and don't understand the world they operate in. They probably keep on cheating....
- Unomi -
Likewise, if your 'friends' from school enter the same job market and get the job you could have instead, you pitty them for cheating and even helping them. You know what you're worth and can withstand the tasks they throw at you. While cheaters don't know and don't understand the world they operate in. They probably keep on cheating....
- Unomi -
Of course I did. Everybody did. It is what made school fun to go to. The entire class had people specialize in different areas, for example I was in charge of CS and English, my best friend of Chemistry and so on. Then we would get together before school and copy each other assignments before class started. Therefore the entire class worked together in order for everybody to earn higher grades, pass the class and spend as little time as possible on homework. In exams we would make students good in that subject sit close to those who are not and help them out.
Define cheating. I fobbed off most of my Physics A-Level (the highest qualification UK schools give out) work and just read "A brief History of Time", "Turning tides: Physics in the new age" and another book I cant remember the name of and aced it.
Obviously I got accused of cheating - and it could well be argued I had an advantage over my classmates (who struggled with an inadequate text book!).
The definition is subjective: but, writing answers on your cuffs helps no one :)
Obviously I got accused of cheating - and it could well be argued I had an advantage over my classmates (who struggled with an inadequate text book!).
The definition is subjective: but, writing answers on your cuffs helps no one :)
To explain your proposed correlation, I think the main point is on a person's character and his way to respond to problem.
For cheating and being lazy to testing code, the common factor is the lack of pursuit to be responsible. So these behaviours can be a result from a person's character.
Another possible theory is that in response to systems that they don't like, they prefer to tricking them instead of other options such as don't care or quitting.
For cheating and being lazy to testing code, the common factor is the lack of pursuit to be responsible. So these behaviours can be a result from a person's character.
Another possible theory is that in response to systems that they don't like, they prefer to tricking them instead of other options such as don't care or quitting.
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You should be a little more clear about what you consider cheating. I voted "no" because I never did anything clearly unethical or in violation of any rules but there were times when I had opportunities to make use of resources in ways that other people may have considered unfair.
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I once used to believe that "I cheat because I can, not because I have to". I like to think I'm a pretty smart guy, but that phrase was just a way for me to justify procasination. Nowadays, no, I don't cheat :)
No. Well, I did cheat one time in third grade. I regret that I didn't cheat more, though. It would've taken me through loads of useless bureaucratic shit and whatever I really could learn, I learned anyway.
Maybe cheating is a leading indicator of efficiency, you get things done no matter what :)
No. I had a friend whose high school life was literally ruined by cheating.
He was a "pathological cheater": smart, and in the top 5 of the class by his own steam, but had a tendency to cheat on everything, even practice PSAT tests administered by the school. He cheated on an essay contest, his winning entry was published (oops!) and he was called out quite publicly when the paper published a retraction.
Rather than own up to it, he made up a bullshit story about how his story was only superficially similar. In fact, it was word-for-word identical, with the title changed.
He changed schools in order to avoid a failing grade for cheating on an exam (and mounting humiliation) to a Catholic school. He was supposedly kicked out of that school for (you guessed it) cheating.
He graduated from law school last summer.
He was a "pathological cheater": smart, and in the top 5 of the class by his own steam, but had a tendency to cheat on everything, even practice PSAT tests administered by the school. He cheated on an essay contest, his winning entry was published (oops!) and he was called out quite publicly when the paper published a retraction.
Rather than own up to it, he made up a bullshit story about how his story was only superficially similar. In fact, it was word-for-word identical, with the title changed.
He changed schools in order to avoid a failing grade for cheating on an exam (and mounting humiliation) to a Catholic school. He was supposedly kicked out of that school for (you guessed it) cheating.
He graduated from law school last summer.
I thought it'd be interesting to ask if any of you cheated throughout your schooling. I put two sets of questions to ask about what your opinion on cheating is and if you did cheat.