Loneliness Is Deadly(slate.com)
slate.com
Loneliness Is Deadly
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/08/dangers_of_loneliness_social_isolation_is_deadlier_than_obesity.html
28 comments
I can relate with the author's experience of moving to a new city, knowing no one. A year ago I moved from England to Sydney. Like the author, I also went heavily out of my way to take part in social activities that would help me meet like-minded people.
What she says is true: it is so hard to build up a social circle from scratch that way, while also working a full-time job. Seeing the same people once every couple of weeks is not enough. There were a number nights where I felt very lonely. It really made me realise how easy it is making friends through school/work/housemates/mutual friends.
I lived in share houses as a means to meeting people, but it is complete potluck who you end up with. The first house I lived in was with people who were very different to me, so after a few months I left. I finally found a house with a decent set of people dropping by, however I always felt like I was on the fringe of the group -- they had all been friends for years.
I believe another problem is the fact that even between countries like Britain and Australia (and even cities within those countries) there are subtle differences between the types of people in each place. These small differences from what I was used to also contributed to my feelings of isolation.
For these reasons, countries like India -- where people tend to live in much closer proximity -- really appeal to me. In most Western countries we have a very isolationist culture, i.e. big fences, not knowing your neighbours etc. and I think this makes loneliness more of a problem on quite a deep level in society. Having said that, the initial language barrier would make things hard in countries such as India.
Having said all that, I don't think that these feelings of loneliness were particularly serious in my case. I am a melancholic person, but pretty far from being depressed. I tend to think of these experiences as "character building" -- this puts it in quite a positive light for me. If I really am unhappy with a situation, then I will work towards doing something about it, which makes me feel more positive as I look towards the future. So I have my ways of dealing with this, but I can sympathise with anyone who has these issues, and understand how it can very easily become a serious problem -- given the right ingredients.
What she says is true: it is so hard to build up a social circle from scratch that way, while also working a full-time job. Seeing the same people once every couple of weeks is not enough. There were a number nights where I felt very lonely. It really made me realise how easy it is making friends through school/work/housemates/mutual friends.
I lived in share houses as a means to meeting people, but it is complete potluck who you end up with. The first house I lived in was with people who were very different to me, so after a few months I left. I finally found a house with a decent set of people dropping by, however I always felt like I was on the fringe of the group -- they had all been friends for years.
I believe another problem is the fact that even between countries like Britain and Australia (and even cities within those countries) there are subtle differences between the types of people in each place. These small differences from what I was used to also contributed to my feelings of isolation.
For these reasons, countries like India -- where people tend to live in much closer proximity -- really appeal to me. In most Western countries we have a very isolationist culture, i.e. big fences, not knowing your neighbours etc. and I think this makes loneliness more of a problem on quite a deep level in society. Having said that, the initial language barrier would make things hard in countries such as India.
Having said all that, I don't think that these feelings of loneliness were particularly serious in my case. I am a melancholic person, but pretty far from being depressed. I tend to think of these experiences as "character building" -- this puts it in quite a positive light for me. If I really am unhappy with a situation, then I will work towards doing something about it, which makes me feel more positive as I look towards the future. So I have my ways of dealing with this, but I can sympathise with anyone who has these issues, and understand how it can very easily become a serious problem -- given the right ingredients.
I think a big problem lies in the individualist approach combined with a reserved attitude toward others. When you start a 'new life' in a new place where you cannot rely on massive amounts of free time, or structured 'community' (university, high school, church), you have to find shortcuts to making 'significant' connections.
I've done okay on that front, having moved to a completely new place very often in my life. I find that one of the secrets is being extra honest, and extra open, instead of waiting for 'organic' moments of connection. These moments happen if you have loads of time to spend with people. If you don't have the time, too much can happen to get in the way of making such a connection before it is too late.
I rather like this quote in the context. Can't remember who wrote it:
"We waste so much energy trying to cover up who we are when beneath every attitude is the want to be loved, and beneath every anger is a wound to be healed and beneath every sadness is the fear that there will not be enough time.
When we hesitate in being direct, we unknowingly slip something on, some added layer of protection that keeps us from feeling the world, and often that thin covering is the beginning of a loneliness which, if not put down, diminishes our chances of joy.
It’s like wearing gloves every time we touch something, and then, forgetting we chose to put them on, we complain that nothing feels quite real. Our challenge each day is not to get dressed to face the world but to unglove ourselves so that the doorknob feels cold and the car handle feels wet and the kiss goodbye feels like the lips of another being, soft and unrepeatable."
I've done okay on that front, having moved to a completely new place very often in my life. I find that one of the secrets is being extra honest, and extra open, instead of waiting for 'organic' moments of connection. These moments happen if you have loads of time to spend with people. If you don't have the time, too much can happen to get in the way of making such a connection before it is too late.
I rather like this quote in the context. Can't remember who wrote it:
"We waste so much energy trying to cover up who we are when beneath every attitude is the want to be loved, and beneath every anger is a wound to be healed and beneath every sadness is the fear that there will not be enough time.
When we hesitate in being direct, we unknowingly slip something on, some added layer of protection that keeps us from feeling the world, and often that thin covering is the beginning of a loneliness which, if not put down, diminishes our chances of joy.
It’s like wearing gloves every time we touch something, and then, forgetting we chose to put them on, we complain that nothing feels quite real. Our challenge each day is not to get dressed to face the world but to unglove ourselves so that the doorknob feels cold and the car handle feels wet and the kiss goodbye feels like the lips of another being, soft and unrepeatable."
Why is this news? Seriously, haven't we known that social isolation results in depression since.... for ever?
I moved to London 3 years ago and I'm still lonely, I've not really made a friend here.
one of the main problem i felt is that once you become more lonely, you ability to socially interact with people reduces.
You can be married and lonely; one of 6 kids and lonely; part of a team and lonely.
But consider: meaningful relationships take effort from everybody, including you. All the advice about learning to trust first, then you can trust others, etc, is right on target here.
But consider: meaningful relationships take effort from everybody, including you. All the advice about learning to trust first, then you can trust others, etc, is right on target here.
But sometimes (at least in my case) it seems that even if you put in all that effort, most of it just vanishes into some kind of void. You try to stay in touch with people, but no matter what you do, they keep drifting away. Which then leads to thinking "Why even bother putting in the energy, if I'm the only one trying".
It's a vicious cycle.
It's a vicious cycle.
Where do you live?
I found living in the northeast, USA -- so many were so focused on things they were told to do: Get education, work hard to start your career... that friendship building was not part of the equation.
Very different after I moved to Myrtle Beach, SC last year. 'Southern Hospitality' also helps: Its infectious. And the fact there are so many transplants from the North that everyone is looking to make new friends.
I found living in the northeast, USA -- so many were so focused on things they were told to do: Get education, work hard to start your career... that friendship building was not part of the equation.
Very different after I moved to Myrtle Beach, SC last year. 'Southern Hospitality' also helps: Its infectious. And the fact there are so many transplants from the North that everyone is looking to make new friends.
I live in Germany. And beeing a freelance developer, I get to hop around the country quite a bit, switching cities every few months.
What I find interesting is, that I have less of this feeling when I'm in the south here as well (Bavaria). It's easier to connect there. There must be something about the south.
What I find interesting is, that I have less of this feeling when I'm in the south here as well (Bavaria). It's easier to connect there. There must be something about the south.
Here in Brazil, that is in the south hemisphere, people are nicer as you move north, toward the equator.
Or southmost state instead is famous for having some xenophobic people, separatist movements, and triggering a huge civil war in the past.my guess is that in colder environments people are very distrustful of newcomers because they are a new risk in a already risky environment
Or southmost state instead is famous for having some xenophobic people, separatist movements, and triggering a huge civil war in the past.my guess is that in colder environments people are very distrustful of newcomers because they are a new risk in a already risky environment
Could it be culture?
I used to know a girl (surname Britz) from Porto Alegre and her family was of German descent and seemed like she had no Brazilian features from what I could see.
When I see pictures and video of people in Rio it's like different country.
I used to know a girl (surname Britz) from Porto Alegre and her family was of German descent and seemed like she had no Brazilian features from what I could see.
When I see pictures and video of people in Rio it's like different country.
Brazil is such a big and diverse country that any state seems like a different country. We have influence from Portugal, Holland [1], France, Germany, Italy, Africa, Japan and many other places. Some would argue that there's no such thing as a "Brazilian feature". That's one of the reasons I always have trouble filling the "race" form when I travel.
[1] The Dutch actually invaded Brazil for a few years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Brazil
[1] The Dutch actually invaded Brazil for a few years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Brazil
I think that's a good observation. People from Northern Europe (Sweden, Norway e.a.) are also known to be "colder" and more reserved than people in the Mediterranean region.
People in the north of England are said to be warmer and friendlier than those in the south. The north was mostly industrial and rural whilst the south has London's financial district and the Home Counties where the "posh" live. I say was because its a lot more homogenized now and there's less industry.
I think any general north-south variation would have to be over large areas (Brazil, Europe, the US). England is tiny--of course north-south differences are going to be dictated by local factors.
You'd be surprised. It may be a small country but if us highly populated and also has a rich long history
Weird. I've lived along the SC coast (Charleston & Hilton Head) my entire life and I have never really understood the "Southern Hospitality" term. I suppose living in the most affluent areas of the state could have something to do with it?
You can be married and lonely; one of 6 kids and lonely; part of a team and lonely.
Loneliness is a state of mind and is thus going to be a matter of temperament. The author of the essay felt lonely because he had less than the amount of personal contact than he wanted. But someone else with less urge for socialization may have not felt lonely at all under the exact same circumstances.
Loneliness is a state of mind and is thus going to be a matter of temperament. The author of the essay felt lonely because he had less than the amount of personal contact than he wanted. But someone else with less urge for socialization may have not felt lonely at all under the exact same circumstances.
^She
Much as I seem to recall this feeling from childhood through my early twenties, surely I'm not the only one actively trying to avoid social interaction later in life. My wife and I have charming friends that we visit from time to time, and sometimes I attend business-related meetup.com events and conferences, but as a general rule, we go for months at a time without outside contact (I don't even bother with social networks), and are even considering moving to the middle of the woods. It isn't that we aren't nice or friendly, we'd just rather be left alone with our projects and animals.
Surely being a happy hermit isn't deadly; We find it quite gratifying.
Surely being a happy hermit isn't deadly; We find it quite gratifying.
I would agree. Even though I feel that I will probably be happier in the long run with a partner, I find myself quite happy to be alone much, of not most of the time.
I could see myself living in the woods and traveling to a nearby town or city ever few weeks or so to 'dip my toes' in social activity, or to have friends visit me as a form of 'retreat'.
The main thing that I miss, I've noticed, is (intellectual) input. And being online can satisfy much of that need (though not all).
What I don't miss, is social interaction for the sake of it.
I'd miss sex though, if I were to do this without a partner.
I could see myself living in the woods and traveling to a nearby town or city ever few weeks or so to 'dip my toes' in social activity, or to have friends visit me as a form of 'retreat'.
The main thing that I miss, I've noticed, is (intellectual) input. And being online can satisfy much of that need (though not all).
What I don't miss, is social interaction for the sake of it.
I'd miss sex though, if I were to do this without a partner.
Hum, the fact that you live "alone" with your wife might make a little difference :)
Quoting the article: According to Cacioppo the key is in the quality, not the quantity of those people. We just need several on whom we can depend and who depend on us in return.
Quoting the article: According to Cacioppo the key is in the quality, not the quantity of those people. We just need several on whom we can depend and who depend on us in return.
Also, pets help fill that role, which your parent mentions having.
[deleted]
You're decidedly not alone; you're with your wife with whom you have a wonderful relationship, and your animals who adore you :)
Yeah this seems like a humblebrag.
"Oh hey it's okay to be alone, like me and my wife..."
"Oh hey, it's okay to be poor, I only have a paid-off house and car..."
"Oh hey it's okay to be alone, like me and my wife..."
"Oh hey, it's okay to be poor, I only have a paid-off house and car..."
> (...) we'd just rather be left alone with our projects and animals.
Having a wife and pets/livestock is not exactly being alone :)
I think what depresses people is not exactly the lack of social interaction (I wouldn't miss having to go to parties and pretend I'm interested on self-absorbed people), but rather the lack of contact with living things.
Having a wife and pets/livestock is not exactly being alone :)
I think what depresses people is not exactly the lack of social interaction (I wouldn't miss having to go to parties and pretend I'm interested on self-absorbed people), but rather the lack of contact with living things.
I believe that it depends on the location much. People in some places are more easy going and welcoming to strangers while in other places they are very closed and cold. Sometimes what it takes to solve the loneliness problem is to move to different region.
Just a few days back I saw this short in same lines "The Innovation of Loneliness" http://vimeo.com/70534716
I've actually just moved to NYC and I'm still feeling lonely. It takes a long time for me to turn an acquaintance into a friendship and I'm really not sure the best course of action to take, help?
I recently moved there, too. What I did was go to social meetups (meetup.com) every evening for two weeks until I clicked with someone. That person hangs out a lot with a co-worker, with whom I also clicked. And we all happened to live within a few blocks of each other (gotta love NYC for that). Now we're three best bros and all go out at least twice a week.
Also I slammed OkCupid and Tinder for dates. I think I went on 15 first dates my first month here--some back-to-back on the weekend. Beware though: hitting the dating scene hard is superficial social interaction until you start seeing the same person repeatedly.
Also I slammed OkCupid and Tinder for dates. I think I went on 15 first dates my first month here--some back-to-back on the weekend. Beware though: hitting the dating scene hard is superficial social interaction until you start seeing the same person repeatedly.
did you get lucky with any of those dates? :P
I don't have specific advice (my methods of coping were not the most healthy), but I can commiserate. My first year up here was harrowingly lonely. I chalk that partially up to the neighborhood I ended up in first (Astoria).
It does take longer to make true friends here. But it does get better. It felt like every other week I was internally debating dropping everything and moving back home. But now... I can't imagine living anywhere else.
If you'd like to grab a coffee or a beer some time, check my profile for my email address.
It does take longer to make true friends here. But it does get better. It felt like every other week I was internally debating dropping everything and moving back home. But now... I can't imagine living anywhere else.
If you'd like to grab a coffee or a beer some time, check my profile for my email address.
How about some kind of club, team sport, dancing class, or evening classes? Increase the chance of turning an acquaintance into a friendship by getting in touch with more people with similar interests.
Isn't what the author is descibing known as homesickness ? Not denying the feelings of isolation he is experiencing but loneliness in your usual environment and loneliness in new environment doesn't seem the same to me.
I don't really know what loneliness means, despite being more socially isolated than most. Boredom, fear, hopelessness, existential angst, I get them; loneliness, not so much. It's probably because I don't see social interaction as an end in itself, only as a means to something else, be it playing a game, solving a problem or having a debate. Someone on a forum wrote something that was an "aha" moment for me:
"Social interaction is mainly about people stroking each other, the same way that you stroke a dog. The content of the interaction is unimportant, most people just need to be stroked and to stroke others". I guess people without such a need are less susceptible to loneliness.
Until recently, I also never thought loneliness was something that applied to me. I'm someone who experiences relatively long periods of isolation, whether its hacking on a project, reading, or as others have mentioned just interacting with co-workers or people you feel somewhat required to meet up with... because they're someone you knew from college, someone from your professional network, or a friend of friend, yet you don't really quite connect with them. I went on like this for years, but I never felt bad about it, or felt any sense of lack or nonfulfillment on a deeper level. FYI, mid 20's here.
But then I got a girlfriend, and soon after she moved in with me. She lived with me for an entire year. Every day I'd wake up with the same person and go to sleep with the same person. Anytime I wanted to go out and do something where you wouldn't want to do it alone, like people watching at parks, the beach, movies, new restaurants, road trips, new bars, etc., she was there and we would do it. I took up some new hobbies. We vibed really well for the most part, so lots of good and spontaneous interactions on a daily basis.
Then a couple months ago we broke up and she moved far away. Now I actually experience loneliness. I can't just go back to the old way, and isolate myself for a week at a time for some project or to learn a new technology. Viscerally, my body can't put up with it. I used to sleep incredibly when she was there. I could easily crawl into bed way before midnight or take naps during the day. Now I'm up late reading stuff or working on something every night, and I don't feel that great about it, physically. I have lost the desire to continue any of the hobbies. I feel a constant subtle pressure like something is wrong and I need to do something to fix it. It's not because I'm butt-hurt about the breakup (it was welcome at the time), it's just not having a person like that in your life anymore.
I think the only reason I was able to go on the way I did prior to the cohabitation, was because I'd simply never experienced such raw, intimate human connection before, like the kind that comes with living in the same one bedroom apartment with an SO for a year. It felt like it awakened a truly human need that perhaps had been long suppressed or I had rationalized a way to keep a distance from.
At any rate, the experience will hopefully make it easier for me to find another gal out there, now that I recognize, or rather "feel", the importance of deeper human connections.
But then I got a girlfriend, and soon after she moved in with me. She lived with me for an entire year. Every day I'd wake up with the same person and go to sleep with the same person. Anytime I wanted to go out and do something where you wouldn't want to do it alone, like people watching at parks, the beach, movies, new restaurants, road trips, new bars, etc., she was there and we would do it. I took up some new hobbies. We vibed really well for the most part, so lots of good and spontaneous interactions on a daily basis.
Then a couple months ago we broke up and she moved far away. Now I actually experience loneliness. I can't just go back to the old way, and isolate myself for a week at a time for some project or to learn a new technology. Viscerally, my body can't put up with it. I used to sleep incredibly when she was there. I could easily crawl into bed way before midnight or take naps during the day. Now I'm up late reading stuff or working on something every night, and I don't feel that great about it, physically. I have lost the desire to continue any of the hobbies. I feel a constant subtle pressure like something is wrong and I need to do something to fix it. It's not because I'm butt-hurt about the breakup (it was welcome at the time), it's just not having a person like that in your life anymore.
I think the only reason I was able to go on the way I did prior to the cohabitation, was because I'd simply never experienced such raw, intimate human connection before, like the kind that comes with living in the same one bedroom apartment with an SO for a year. It felt like it awakened a truly human need that perhaps had been long suppressed or I had rationalized a way to keep a distance from.
At any rate, the experience will hopefully make it easier for me to find another gal out there, now that I recognize, or rather "feel", the importance of deeper human connections.
Heh, very recognizable.
I do think you will acclimatize to being alone over time, and it gets easier and perhaps almost back to 'before'. But I also agree that once you've had a taste of good partnership, it changes your perspective permanently, and you don't want to settle for 'before'.
I do think you will acclimatize to being alone over time, and it gets easier and perhaps almost back to 'before'. But I also agree that once you've had a taste of good partnership, it changes your perspective permanently, and you don't want to settle for 'before'.
The "stroking" term comes from Games People Play, FWIW. Really interesting read.
I think the sisyphean task of existence becomes easier when another consciousness acknowledges that you exist.
I think that being alone and loneliness is two different things. One can be alone without feeling loneliness, the same way, one can feel loneliness while being surrounded by people [other people mentioned the quality and health of relationships]. When one feels that the Sisyphean task is easier because other people go trough it is comforting. But I think what would make this experience easier is, being aware that it is more absurd to end it. One may put oneself in the crowd to feel the warmth, or one can worm one’s mind and stand for what one believes.
I am also more socially isolated than most, and I don't feel the emotion of loneliness very often, but I definitely become distrustful and more withdrawn as the article described when I spend more time isolated. I didn't even connect the two, I just figured that was part of my personality. But now I'm remembering that when I did have close friends around a lot I felt much better and could talk to new people much more easily, and the existential angst didn't bother me so much because I don't think about it while talking to close friends. so those things might be how loneliness manifests itself in you.
I find that the biggest effect of being alone for long periods of time is that my mind starts obsessing over weird things if I don't direct it to specific 'problems' to solve. It's like I need to exert more control when there are no friends around to 'center' my thought processes.
For the last week I've lived utterly alone. I didn't leave the house or interact with other people at all, except to buy some groceries on the first day. I didn't even have internet access until yesterday.
As a 15 year old I'm sure this would have sounded like a dream; I get to do whatever I want, and there's no one around to bug me? Sign me up! And yet, when I actually lived it, it felt more like a kind of personal hell. I became depressed, anxious, and apathetic within just a few days. Turns out human contact is a lot more important to me than I would have guessed. I won't be repeating that experience any time soon if I can help it.
The scary thing is that there are many, many people who have lived this way for years or even decades, and will probably continue to do so for the rest of their lives (see http://www.wizardchan.org). I can't imagine how a person could stay sane.
As a 15 year old I'm sure this would have sounded like a dream; I get to do whatever I want, and there's no one around to bug me? Sign me up! And yet, when I actually lived it, it felt more like a kind of personal hell. I became depressed, anxious, and apathetic within just a few days. Turns out human contact is a lot more important to me than I would have guessed. I won't be repeating that experience any time soon if I can help it.
The scary thing is that there are many, many people who have lived this way for years or even decades, and will probably continue to do so for the rest of their lives (see http://www.wizardchan.org). I can't imagine how a person could stay sane.
And yet, when I actually lived it, it felt more like a kind of personal hell.
I have done two eight day meditation retreats in complete silence (except for a short conversation with the mediation teacher once a day). The first time, after about one day, I was 100% sure I was going to give up that day. I missed sounds, listening to music, social interactions, etc. and ended up in a circle that slowly turned into hell (as you described).
After that day, during my daily conversation, I told my teacher that I couldn't bear it anymore and was going to leave. He kind and jokingly fashion said (I am paraphrasing): "we'll prepare the refund". Somehow that clicked and I realised that my mind had been running in circles, magnifying emotions of boredness and craving step by step. After that I had an excellent retreat, understanding a tiny bit better how the mind works.
We are social beings and social contacts are essential. However, silence can also help us every now and then.
I have done two eight day meditation retreats in complete silence (except for a short conversation with the mediation teacher once a day). The first time, after about one day, I was 100% sure I was going to give up that day. I missed sounds, listening to music, social interactions, etc. and ended up in a circle that slowly turned into hell (as you described).
After that day, during my daily conversation, I told my teacher that I couldn't bear it anymore and was going to leave. He kind and jokingly fashion said (I am paraphrasing): "we'll prepare the refund". Somehow that clicked and I realised that my mind had been running in circles, magnifying emotions of boredness and craving step by step. After that I had an excellent retreat, understanding a tiny bit better how the mind works.
We are social beings and social contacts are essential. However, silence can also help us every now and then.
While I attended a retreat I somehow never felt lonely. I was around other poeple all the time, we ate together and of course meditated together, despite not sharing eye contact and staying silent. After the ten days on the last day everyone was allowed to talk and it was a It is a very moving experience. Everyone felt connected.
Not feeling connected, feeling isolated amongst other poeple, beeing unable to make meaningful connections is lonelyness for me.
For me it really comes down to a mutual feeling of acceptance. I've spend some nights with some punks, watching movies and going to town. We did not know us before hand but I felt accepted not lonely. Meeting with other students from my university? Felt lonely and disconnected. Your brain is a strange device... or I am just having problems dealing with big egos and "alpha male" bullshit.
Not feeling connected, feeling isolated amongst other poeple, beeing unable to make meaningful connections is lonelyness for me.
For me it really comes down to a mutual feeling of acceptance. I've spend some nights with some punks, watching movies and going to town. We did not know us before hand but I felt accepted not lonely. Meeting with other students from my university? Felt lonely and disconnected. Your brain is a strange device... or I am just having problems dealing with big egos and "alpha male" bullshit.
I can very much empathize with this feeling. Last year, my freshman year of college, I lived an extremely isolated life. However, by living very quietly for quite a while, in a beautiful place, I found great comfort in my own mind. It was incredibly peaceful to have days where I did very little but eat, sleep and think. In that time I learned a lot about myself, and grew as a person. I'm glad I had that chance.
A week is nothing, it's like a detox period. Try several years of interacting with people you don't really connect with and feeling lonely, now that's depressing as hell...
You get used to it after awhile, believe me. I've been living like that for the past 4 years. There are times that it hits you and you want to change the way you live, but then you forget all about it until you think about it again.
It depends on how you experience the world too. Some people suffer too much from interactions, some it's a 80/20 thing (my case) and being without nobody actually feels less lonely than when with people and feeling out of place surrounded by persons enjoying something that you either reject or simply can't understand. It's not entirely definitive, but to me the benefits of social interactions are often a little below their cost. I just read that it was often the case for introverts, their mind flows better when they're alone (unless they find someone who they can 'sync' with)
My conclusion would be that one should try to find and converge towards whatever fits his needs. You got to know how isolation was not for you, good thing.
My conclusion would be that one should try to find and converge towards whatever fits his needs. You got to know how isolation was not for you, good thing.
"Manley was twice divorced. He had no children, no nieces or nephews. His parents had both died: his mother in 2002, then his father in 2007. He had one sister and one brother and neither lived nearby or visited much.
"Almost all of the recent photographs of him on his website appeared to be 'selfies.'
[...]
"He ate one meal a day, sometimes nothing at all, and had 'consistently inconsistent' sleep habits. At one point, he experimented with staying awake 36 hours at a time, then sleeping for 12.
"He had a collection of 25 fedora hats, boasted about wearing the same pair of $12 Wal-Mart shoes for 12 years and played a monthly game of dollar poker that welcomed obscure variations of the game with names like 'Three Turds' and 'No Peak.'
"He had a collection of more than 1,000 movies on VHS tape, along with a computer database that would sort them by title, rating, year and genre. (He had his own rating system for them, too. He only handed out 21 perfect '10' scores over the years and his absolute favorite film was the 1986 adaptation of 'Little Shop of Horrors.'"
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/tech/web/martin-manley-suicide...
"Almost all of the recent photographs of him on his website appeared to be 'selfies.'
[...]
"He ate one meal a day, sometimes nothing at all, and had 'consistently inconsistent' sleep habits. At one point, he experimented with staying awake 36 hours at a time, then sleeping for 12.
"He had a collection of 25 fedora hats, boasted about wearing the same pair of $12 Wal-Mart shoes for 12 years and played a monthly game of dollar poker that welcomed obscure variations of the game with names like 'Three Turds' and 'No Peak.'
"He had a collection of more than 1,000 movies on VHS tape, along with a computer database that would sort them by title, rating, year and genre. (He had his own rating system for them, too. He only handed out 21 perfect '10' scores over the years and his absolute favorite film was the 1986 adaptation of 'Little Shop of Horrors.'"
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/tech/web/martin-manley-suicide...
To be fair, he insists on his site that he was not lonely or depressed. It seems his motivation for suicide was that he found the idea of growing old and incapacitated to be the scariest thing he'd ever imagined, and he wanted to end his life before that happened, while he was still able to do so. He mentions he'd planned this out since he was young, but didn't put a date on it until a year or so before he committed suicide.
According to Cacioppo the key is in the quality, not the quantity of those people. We just need several on whom we can depend and who depend on us in return.
This really should be called the quality of our relationships rather than this so called "quality of people", whatever that means.
but more importantly...
In one study, Cacioppo measured brain activity during the sleep of lonely and nonlonely people. Those who were lonely were far more prone to micro awakenings, which suggest the brain is on alert for threats throughout the night, perhaps just as earlier humans would have needed to be when separated from their tribe.
I experienced exactly this during the worst period of depression a few years ago. In a foreign country for work, I had many friendly colleagues but no one whom I could truly trust and could lay out the whole truth with. During this period, I would wake up at night 1 after going to sleep, ever night, without fail. (I'd eventually have mental breakdowns every 2 months, until I finally mustered the courage to resign, pack my bags, give away all my stuff, and leave the country)
It was a brutal time in my life and every time I think back to it, I'm thankful to be back home where I grew up amongst my closest friends.
This really should be called the quality of our relationships rather than this so called "quality of people", whatever that means.
but more importantly...
In one study, Cacioppo measured brain activity during the sleep of lonely and nonlonely people. Those who were lonely were far more prone to micro awakenings, which suggest the brain is on alert for threats throughout the night, perhaps just as earlier humans would have needed to be when separated from their tribe.
I experienced exactly this during the worst period of depression a few years ago. In a foreign country for work, I had many friendly colleagues but no one whom I could truly trust and could lay out the whole truth with. During this period, I would wake up at night 1 after going to sleep, ever night, without fail. (I'd eventually have mental breakdowns every 2 months, until I finally mustered the courage to resign, pack my bags, give away all my stuff, and leave the country)
It was a brutal time in my life and every time I think back to it, I'm thankful to be back home where I grew up amongst my closest friends.
> This really should be called the quality of our relationships rather than this so called "quality of people", whatever that means.
+1. I have met plenty of wonderful people with whom I have somewhat strained relationships. This is neither my fault nor theirs.
+1. I have met plenty of wonderful people with whom I have somewhat strained relationships. This is neither my fault nor theirs.
I've been going to a simliar phase as you and the author in the last year (mentally I labeled it as "the loneliest year in my life (so far)"). My solution, as yours and the author's, is also to go back where my home and my friends are (this is still a month from now though).
I pretty much had the same problems too: meeting new people, having new colleagues and also do stuff with them, but never feeling quite connected.
So I've been wondering lately what this has to say about my personality. Am I just not ready yet to just leave what I call home now (and my friends and family) and start somewhere else again (maybe for a really worthwhile job in a cool city)? Or am I just the kind of person that is not cut out for doing this kind of stuff? This uncertainty is also amplified by the fact that I have a friend who is about the same age as me, mid-twenties, who just last year left to live in L.A. and seems quite happy there.
Maybe you'd like to elaborate on how your life changed after you decided to go back and if you think you will ever try to live somewhere else (wherever that may be) again? I'd really appreciate it!
So I've been wondering lately what this has to say about my personality. Am I just not ready yet to just leave what I call home now (and my friends and family) and start somewhere else again (maybe for a really worthwhile job in a cool city)? Or am I just the kind of person that is not cut out for doing this kind of stuff? This uncertainty is also amplified by the fact that I have a friend who is about the same age as me, mid-twenties, who just last year left to live in L.A. and seems quite happy there.
Maybe you'd like to elaborate on how your life changed after you decided to go back and if you think you will ever try to live somewhere else (wherever that may be) again? I'd really appreciate it!
Hey Joe, unfortunately I've only sporadically written about it on HN and on my blog, but I'm in this weird limbo state where I want to spill all the beans but I know that putting it on my blog would damage my professional future (since I am in the business side of things these days where machisimo and type-A ism is the norm). Not sure how best to communicate, but if you do see this by chance, shoot me a email (it's in my HN profile) and we can chat :)
This is a huge opportunity for startups.
Online dating is still not as successful it could be because all data is not used. Everyone has smartphones, partners could be matched up based on the generated sensor data. There's also the low cost gene sequencing services, daters could be matched up using it.
The friendship problem cannot be tackled the same way. Women might be more open to actively seeking new platonic friendships in dating service kind of fashion, but they are less likely to be lonely anyway.
To solve the male loneliness problem would require focusing men around an issue. Men build good friendships over shared forced activities (school, work, military, political meetups, dinners with their wives's friends husbands).
To solve the loney man issue requires more of the same. Greater efficiencies in organizing economic/volunteery groups.
Crowdsourcing and crowdfunding is the answer here. Sites like mechanical turk and kickstarter with better social networking features, and finding ways to physically get people meeting together. For example, a component of kickstarter campaign might require doing a thousand man march in the capital city. Part of a mechanical turk task would require holding a protest. Similar ideas to get people excited about a shared cause meeting up at the same place.
Also, governments should consider creating an army units for elderly or otherwise lonely men. If your old and you're wife/husband died, you should be able to join the army to help in some capacity, even sitting at a desk at the barracks and filling in mechanical turk tasks.
Online dating is still not as successful it could be because all data is not used. Everyone has smartphones, partners could be matched up based on the generated sensor data. There's also the low cost gene sequencing services, daters could be matched up using it.
The friendship problem cannot be tackled the same way. Women might be more open to actively seeking new platonic friendships in dating service kind of fashion, but they are less likely to be lonely anyway.
To solve the male loneliness problem would require focusing men around an issue. Men build good friendships over shared forced activities (school, work, military, political meetups, dinners with their wives's friends husbands).
To solve the loney man issue requires more of the same. Greater efficiencies in organizing economic/volunteery groups.
Crowdsourcing and crowdfunding is the answer here. Sites like mechanical turk and kickstarter with better social networking features, and finding ways to physically get people meeting together. For example, a component of kickstarter campaign might require doing a thousand man march in the capital city. Part of a mechanical turk task would require holding a protest. Similar ideas to get people excited about a shared cause meeting up at the same place.
Also, governments should consider creating an army units for elderly or otherwise lonely men. If your old and you're wife/husband died, you should be able to join the army to help in some capacity, even sitting at a desk at the barracks and filling in mechanical turk tasks.
Dating in the context of dating sites and such is inherently targeted at lonely people; fake profiles, trying to invoke feelings of 'belonging', and that there are people like you out there.
Which are all sales techniques to get you to get a subscription. It's worse when you're a woman, put your picture up there and you get a dozen messages a week from guys suggesting you should have sex with them.
To solve loneliness, people need to talk. Not try and find people that 'match' according to some obscure algorithm on an impersonal, protective online cocoon in the form of a dating site.
Also, aren't veterans an army social club of sorts? Annual meetups and the like.
Which are all sales techniques to get you to get a subscription. It's worse when you're a woman, put your picture up there and you get a dozen messages a week from guys suggesting you should have sex with them.
To solve loneliness, people need to talk. Not try and find people that 'match' according to some obscure algorithm on an impersonal, protective online cocoon in the form of a dating site.
Also, aren't veterans an army social club of sorts? Annual meetups and the like.
I just moved to San Francisco a year ago. I know no one any more since I quit my last job to do my own business. I've been feeling really lonely, so I googled "finding friends in San Francisco." This lead me to Craigslist, and soon I was reading ads in the strictly platonic section where men are looking for other men to hike shirtless together. Hiking is cool, but it didn't take me long to realize this wasn't really what I was looking for.
So I've been scouring Meetup, and I've been having a lot of trouble finding things there, too. Here I live in the East Bay, literally I'm at the most ideal place on Earth for finding the kind of people I'm interested in, and struggling. The problem is me, of course! But still, there is opportunity here for the right kind of startup or community.
So I've been scouring Meetup, and I've been having a lot of trouble finding things there, too. Here I live in the East Bay, literally I'm at the most ideal place on Earth for finding the kind of people I'm interested in, and struggling. The problem is me, of course! But still, there is opportunity here for the right kind of startup or community.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/SFredditors & http://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea is pretty friendly, check it out! There is also http://sf.funcheap.com/ . There are also singular startup & tech industry events and such that pop up all the time in SF. Usually although I find those through friends since I'm not actively looking, there is probably some directory website having it. Most of them seem to be scheduled through eventbrite, so you can just look at the eventbrite directory here: https://www.eventbrite.com/directory
Hey thanks for taking the time to post these amazingly great resources. I really appreciate it!
I think this is why some very high iq people aren't more productive... it's not easy to find high quality relationships.
One can have too high of expectations of social interactions. I find this leads to angst.
It's ok if this or that person is "only" a drinking after work friend, or this/that person is "only" a weekend friend, etc. While difficult, it is important to expand your social circle if you do not feel fulfilled. And, that can be difficult, but necessary.
It's ok if this or that person is "only" a drinking after work friend, or this/that person is "only" a weekend friend, etc. While difficult, it is important to expand your social circle if you do not feel fulfilled. And, that can be difficult, but necessary.
Indeed; I feel like potential is always there to expand comradrey into a proper friendship -- it's up to the individual to put his or herself on the table. Definitely not an easy thing to do. The rejection from such a measure is akin to romantic rejection.
One of the interesting opportunities there is IMO in this area is to recognize that what we have done with our anti-poverty programs, in liberating people from family and community, is as oppressive as anything we have solved. I think there is a major opportunity to sit down and help rework charity and government programs so that they help with this issue.
We are social animals and disrupting this I think is something which causes all manner of problems from inner city violence and gangs to founder suicides. If we start changing our thinking about the problems we are solving, and start thinking about households and communities, and helping these thrive, then I think those solutions can be monetized just as much as the so-called "social" apps, which aren't really social at all in the same way.
We are social animals and disrupting this I think is something which causes all manner of problems from inner city violence and gangs to founder suicides. If we start changing our thinking about the problems we are solving, and start thinking about households and communities, and helping these thrive, then I think those solutions can be monetized just as much as the so-called "social" apps, which aren't really social at all in the same way.
Oregon, huh? I suggest you get a medical marijuana license and meet some people at the shops. Instant connection when you're smoking.
What about starting a family? Of course you shouldn't do it just because you feel lonely from time to time, but if you need strong social bonds, then why not? Instead of analysing the shit out of the problem, just do what people have been doing for ages.
> What about starting a family?
I can think of one reason not to -- contrary to a popular belief, parents aren't necessarily as happy or satisfied as single people, and I suspect this is more likely to be true if the parenting decision is based on something orthogonal, like thinking of it as a way to deal with loneliness, rather than any real commitment to the activity itself.
"All Joy and No Fun ... Why parents hate parenting": http://nymag.com/news/features/67024/
Quote: " ... a wide variety of academic research shows that parents are not happier than their childless peers, and in many cases are less so. This finding is surprisingly consistent, showing up across a range of disciplines."
> ... just do what people have been doing for ages.
To me that's not much of an argument in favor of doing something. People owned slaves for ages, claimed that women were stupid and subhuman for ages, and burned original thinkers at the stake for ages.
I can think of one reason not to -- contrary to a popular belief, parents aren't necessarily as happy or satisfied as single people, and I suspect this is more likely to be true if the parenting decision is based on something orthogonal, like thinking of it as a way to deal with loneliness, rather than any real commitment to the activity itself.
"All Joy and No Fun ... Why parents hate parenting": http://nymag.com/news/features/67024/
Quote: " ... a wide variety of academic research shows that parents are not happier than their childless peers, and in many cases are less so. This finding is surprisingly consistent, showing up across a range of disciplines."
> ... just do what people have been doing for ages.
To me that's not much of an argument in favor of doing something. People owned slaves for ages, claimed that women were stupid and subhuman for ages, and burned original thinkers at the stake for ages.
If you have kids just so you have someone who will be around and like you, you're not going to have a good time when they become teenagers.
I think I was misunderstood. If someone needs others around him then he should work towards fulfilling that need. In most cases he won't be able to somehow expell that need from his ego.
One thing I recently discovered when moving to a new area is http://www.meetup.com . It works on so many levels, both socially and work related.
Not sure it's for everyone as it can be hard initially going to a place to meet a group of strangers, but then you have to realise, they really want you there. You're key to their continued existence. It works both ways.
Not sure it's for everyone as it can be hard initially going to a place to meet a group of strangers, but then you have to realise, they really want you there. You're key to their continued existence. It works both ways.
+1 for this. I moved to a new city about 5 years ago (100 miles from my home town) and I now have a whole new group of friends that I met on meetup.com.
It's actually good to be alone when you're out there, in contact with nature and with plenty of occupation. Shutting yourself inside your house and watching TV is another story.
I think people have needs (such as being loved and understood, by people that they love and understand, fulfilling their ambitions, etc.) and if they aren't surrounded by others who satisfy those needs then they feel lonely, even if there are lots of people who would be with them.
So loneliness may be about taking are of our desires and needs. Sometimes it actually is borne out of what society has conditioned us to believe and to want.
So loneliness may be about taking are of our desires and needs. Sometimes it actually is borne out of what society has conditioned us to believe and to want.
This I believe is a good reason why not to allow employees to work from home or even remotely for extended periods.
Remote you could mitigate issues by making sure they go to shared offices where people tend to stay a while.
This isn't the best article in the world on the issue, but it certainly needs looking into.
Remote you could mitigate issues by making sure they go to shared offices where people tend to stay a while.
This isn't the best article in the world on the issue, but it certainly needs looking into.
I'm an introvert. Working from home and remotely for extended periods is actually good for me, psychologically. I don't rely on work for my social interaction. I also worked with a remote employee who was very, very extroverted. He lived with his family, had several video gaming leagues and several in-person RPG groups going all at the same time. Oh, and he also had a dog and a cat.
I guess the moral of the story is, prescribing general office policies under the assumption any work from home employee is a potential suicide risk is misguided. People are responsible for looking after their own mental health, not the company.
I guess the moral of the story is, prescribing general office policies under the assumption any work from home employee is a potential suicide risk is misguided. People are responsible for looking after their own mental health, not the company.
I disagree, coming from the perspective that loneliness and it's negative side effects revolve around quality of connections, not just being around people. I don't have deeper, quality connections with my co-workers and don't think I ever will, given my particular company. And not for lack of trying. Some companies can incubate the right culture and make the right hires, but I think most cannot.
WFH can be isolating, but I much prefer it to the obligatory, often superficial conversations with coworkers or managers, as well as not to mention the myriad other distractions that keep you from getting your work done.
WFH can be isolating, but I much prefer it to the obligatory, often superficial conversations with coworkers or managers, as well as not to mention the myriad other distractions that keep you from getting your work done.
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Definitely falling victim to this. And I think making a little money makes it even harder... when the fight/flight kicks in I flee to another country, thinking I'll somehow be happy there, but end up even more lonely.
Another misconception is that traveling solo takes you out of your shell, and maybe I'm wasn't that introverted to begin with, but I don't feel any more extroverted. I was always comfortable chatting with people at a tech function or dinner party, but a generic cocktail mixer in a bar feels like hitting any meat market in any city, and it's still not something I'm comfortable with.
1. Details for the curious: http://philip.yurchuk.com/2012/12/07/basically-im-just-gonna...