College grad: "I wish I’d gone to prison instead"(redtape.msnbc.com)
redtape.msnbc.com
College grad: "I wish I’d gone to prison instead"
http://redtape.msnbc.com/2009/05/college-debt-so-crushing-grad-says-i-wish-id-gone-to-prison-instead.html
9 comments
What that reports shows is that historically college has paid off, but even with adjustment for inflation the cost of college has increased by 2.5 times over the past 70 years ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_tuition has a great chart showing how that varies across institutions, in some schools the adjusted increase is much lower). Combined with the increased percentage of Americans attending college (from <%5 circa 1940 to nearly 30% now, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Educational_attainment.jpg), I think it's disingenuous to rely on data based on the relative success of those who attended college 40 or 50 year s ago to someone who is graduating from college today.
College is more expensive and having a degree is much more common. Because of these factors, although I do think lifetime wage for college graduates will continue to outpace non-graduates, I also think that the relative payoff will decrease.
Apologies for over-reliance on wikipedia, it is remarkably hard to find quality sources in a minute or two. ;)
College is more expensive and having a degree is much more common. Because of these factors, although I do think lifetime wage for college graduates will continue to outpace non-graduates, I also think that the relative payoff will decrease.
Apologies for over-reliance on wikipedia, it is remarkably hard to find quality sources in a minute or two. ;)
My bachelors degree was paid for by the Florida lottery, and the school paid me an extra $8,000 just to choose them. The cost of college is relative to the effort you put in prior to applying.
I honestly enjoyed college, and the experience I gained by going through it was invaluable. I didn't party. I didn't drink. I went to class every day, worked at a small web development shop when I wasn't in class, and I took it all in. I graduated on time, and with the knowledge that it had all been well worth it. That was college for me.
College is what you make of it. If you go into it hating the establishment, you're going to drop out. The school I went to had a foundation exam for CS students after their first 2 years. Basically, it filters out those who knew the material (or were passionate enough to study and take it 3 times, yes that was me) and those who were just doing the degree for a piece of paper. It works.
I honestly enjoyed college, and the experience I gained by going through it was invaluable. I didn't party. I didn't drink. I went to class every day, worked at a small web development shop when I wasn't in class, and I took it all in. I graduated on time, and with the knowledge that it had all been well worth it. That was college for me.
College is what you make of it. If you go into it hating the establishment, you're going to drop out. The school I went to had a foundation exam for CS students after their first 2 years. Basically, it filters out those who knew the material (or were passionate enough to study and take it 3 times, yes that was me) and those who were just doing the degree for a piece of paper. It works.
That isn't fair - there is selection bias. You have to compare people who were accepted to college and choose not to go to those who choose to go.
Then, subtract the opportunity cost of the money the college goers paid (i.e., cost * expected ROI in some other endeavor) before comparing lifetime earnings.
The studies I've seen to that for a lot of people (mediocre students, no-name school, etc) there is relatively little benefit to attending college.
Then, subtract the opportunity cost of the money the college goers paid (i.e., cost * expected ROI in some other endeavor) before comparing lifetime earnings.
The studies I've seen to that for a lot of people (mediocre students, no-name school, etc) there is relatively little benefit to attending college.
The study is harder than that. You have to take a sampling of those accepted to college and force a percentage of them to skip out.
The "educated people make more money, therefore get an education" arguments annoy me. There's rarely a mention that causation is presumed.
The "educated people make more money, therefore get an education" arguments annoy me. There's rarely a mention that causation is presumed.
Ideally yes - but we can't (ethically) do that ;-)
1. That also includes older workers who got their degrees when a smaller percentage of the population went to college. Now that a much higher percentage of young people are getting degrees, will there still be enough demand to keep wages for degree holders high, relative to the increased supply of workers with those degrees?
2. If you include debt, cost of servicing that debt, opportunity cost of the years needed for the degree, increasing tuition and fees, and reliance on credit cards to make ends meet, with the finance charges and exploding interest rates credit cards entail, surely at some point all of the increased lifetime earnings are completely offset? Especially taking into account the increased number of degree holders in the marketplace.
It may very well still be worthwhile to get a degree. But the decision is not as clear as it once was.
2. If you include debt, cost of servicing that debt, opportunity cost of the years needed for the degree, increasing tuition and fees, and reliance on credit cards to make ends meet, with the finance charges and exploding interest rates credit cards entail, surely at some point all of the increased lifetime earnings are completely offset? Especially taking into account the increased number of degree holders in the marketplace.
It may very well still be worthwhile to get a degree. But the decision is not as clear as it once was.
A bunch of disaffected college students just got out for the summer, and have more time to read and submit articles here.
Earned not will earn. And a degree in what?
Here in the UK the govt. has the goal of getting 50% of people to have some sort of degree. When a degree in media studies from an ex-poly is the norm, what then? The brutal truth is if you don't get into a Russell Group university then you would be better off going straight into the job market at 18. Don't shoot the messenger.
Here in the UK the govt. has the goal of getting 50% of people to have some sort of degree. When a degree in media studies from an ex-poly is the norm, what then? The brutal truth is if you don't get into a Russell Group university then you would be better off going straight into the job market at 18. Don't shoot the messenger.
i don't think that in this case, the language that the guy is using is saying "don't go to college", he's saying "don't go to a standard 4 year".
not everyone should go to a standard 4 year university. some people are better off in a trade school or a 2 year tech school. or, the military where they'll train you well to do some specific things. i also think that associates degrees vary in success and pull reasonably more weight than the linked report shows they do.
i think that this should be the takeaway.
not everyone should go to a standard 4 year university. some people are better off in a trade school or a 2 year tech school. or, the military where they'll train you well to do some specific things. i also think that associates degrees vary in success and pull reasonably more weight than the linked report shows they do.
i think that this should be the takeaway.
Not to mention, you know, the bit about 'education' and 'refining your mind', which is supposed to be the purpose of the whole thing.
It's not all that sudden... they keep surfacing every once in a while it seems.
I'm getting tired of people bitching about not coming out of school with a 6 figure job and a house.
You chose the wrong degree You are too lazy to network and find another job You'll be stuck in the warehouse forever
Stop bitching and change your own situation if you don't like it.
And he's 30, wtf? How long did he wait to go to college? or should I dare to inquire, how long did it take to finish?
You chose the wrong degree You are too lazy to network and find another job You'll be stuck in the warehouse forever
Stop bitching and change your own situation if you don't like it.
And he's 30, wtf? How long did he wait to go to college? or should I dare to inquire, how long did it take to finish?
At the end of the article it reveals that the guy is 30. Unless he went to school very late, there are probably other reasons he's underemployed. It's hard to believe he couldn't have found an accounting job over the past 7 years.
Going to prison can still be arranged if Mr Castillo really wants to give it a try. I can think of a few ways he could make his way there, and none of them require any qualifications.
I think we shouldn't underestimate the fact that kids are told over and over by teachers, guidance counselors, etc., "Go to college." These (well-meaning) people often don't realize that what worked for them twenty years ago might not be relevant anymore. In many parts of the U.S., there just isn't that much productive industry (of whatever kind) to support all these new graduates.
Yes, he's whining. But the undertone seems to be that he is crushed by debt to the point his life feels worthless. Therefore instead of spending those years only to accumulate debt, he is feeling he could have done just as well sitting in prison, for free.
I think the bigger issue is that people assume going to college leads to getting a job which leads to making more money. In this case, the whiner is stuck because the formula failed for him.
If we could somehow flip the conventional thinking into, going to college leads to building a solid foundation of perseverance and problem solving which can then be applied and traded for something you value, then things would be different. The whiner would then have a new formula which is observe the situation, solve the problem using a vast array of possible solutions and trade for something of value.
The problem in this case.. he can't seem to figure out how to get out of a warehousing job in a down market.
Sad.
I think the bigger issue is that people assume going to college leads to getting a job which leads to making more money. In this case, the whiner is stuck because the formula failed for him.
If we could somehow flip the conventional thinking into, going to college leads to building a solid foundation of perseverance and problem solving which can then be applied and traded for something you value, then things would be different. The whiner would then have a new formula which is observe the situation, solve the problem using a vast array of possible solutions and trade for something of value.
The problem in this case.. he can't seem to figure out how to get out of a warehousing job in a down market.
Sad.
It is amazing what a contradictory situation the United States has landed itself in when it comes to college education. One the one hand, I can attest first hand to how amazing the college level educational system is here compared to other countries. On the other hand, the US is probably the only country where you have to incur 10-20 years worth of debt to get an education!
Maybe the tuition component of college expenses can be justified: you get a world class education, you pay a high price for it. But the textbook prices are just insane. If Wiley can make a profit selling a book for $10 in Asia, how is a $150 US price on the same textbook reasonable?
Maybe the tuition component of college expenses can be justified: you get a world class education, you pay a high price for it. But the textbook prices are just insane. If Wiley can make a profit selling a book for $10 in Asia, how is a $150 US price on the same textbook reasonable?
not for nothing, but if he's crushed by debt why is he only working a warehouse job.
Deliver pizza or work a second job, use that extra income to rapidly pay down the debt.
Deliver pizza or work a second job, use that extra income to rapidly pay down the debt.
Because he is applying formula #1: go to college -> get A job -> make money
Nowhere in there does it say he can get more than one job, start a side business, etc. He's stuck using a broken ideology, but that is apparently all he was taught during those years in college. Poor soul just doesn't know any better.
But you are leaning towards a more logical, reasoned formula. Formula #2.
Nowhere in there does it say he can get more than one job, start a side business, etc. He's stuck using a broken ideology, but that is apparently all he was taught during those years in college. Poor soul just doesn't know any better.
But you are leaning towards a more logical, reasoned formula. Formula #2.
Working at a warehouse and delivering pizza to pay off $35,200 would take years, and effectively make his degree worthless by the time he finished.
Declare bankruptcy, bootstrap your own biz, and wait out the next 7 years and he'll be good to go.
Declare bankruptcy, bootstrap your own biz, and wait out the next 7 years and he'll be good to go.
It would not take years.
Practicing frugality and taking every last dollar would help the problem. He's got like 7k worth of credit card debt, which could be paid off in as little as 6 months if he really busted his ass delivering pizza at night. This is assuming he pulls in roughly 250 a week in tips and wages. and continues paying his 300 a month towards the credit card.
Continuing, once the CC is paid off he will take that pizza delivery money and the 300 he has been paying and "snowball" that into the pay off of student loans.
Listen to Dave ramsey's show and it's amazing some people pay upward to 45k in debt off in a matter of 18 months on a 24k salary. It's entirely possible if you have determination, but I don't think this guy does.
Practicing frugality and taking every last dollar would help the problem. He's got like 7k worth of credit card debt, which could be paid off in as little as 6 months if he really busted his ass delivering pizza at night. This is assuming he pulls in roughly 250 a week in tips and wages. and continues paying his 300 a month towards the credit card.
Continuing, once the CC is paid off he will take that pizza delivery money and the 300 he has been paying and "snowball" that into the pay off of student loans.
Listen to Dave ramsey's show and it's amazing some people pay upward to 45k in debt off in a matter of 18 months on a 24k salary. It's entirely possible if you have determination, but I don't think this guy does.
Right now, it's even hard to get a pizza delivery job.
An acquaintance of mine has been searching for an engineering (not programming) job for months out of college and was excited to get a paper boy job. (He's okay financially due to an understanding fiance, but worried that he will never end up in the field.)
An acquaintance of mine has been searching for an engineering (not programming) job for months out of college and was excited to get a paper boy job. (He's okay financially due to an understanding fiance, but worried that he will never end up in the field.)
It's not colleges fault this guy is an idiot. Shame on msnbc trolling.
"landing a job as an accountant"
"I wish I had gone to prison"
What's the difference?
"I wish I had gone to prison"
What's the difference?
What a stupid comment. Where I come from, accounting is a fairly semi-successful occupation. Lots of people I know in my community are accountants, who love it, and are leading really happy lives. Just because there are people who don't aspire to be independent, let's run the show, I am my own boss, entrepreneurs, and would opt out for something a bit safer and more stable, doesn't mean they're accepting a prison-like lifestyle. Your childish, baseless, and condescending comment is actually quite offensive.
You'd think someone as old as yourself would know that there's more to life than a job.
And you'd think these types of garbage comments wouldn't get upvoted. To be honest, it's not even that witty.
You'd think someone as old as yourself would know that there's more to life than a job.
And you'd think these types of garbage comments wouldn't get upvoted. To be honest, it's not even that witty.
Lighten up, kyro. It was a little witty, wasn't it?
My brother really loved accounting as a subject in college. He found something else he likes more now, but if he had become an accountant, I don't think he would have felt his job was like prison.
Just because something might feel like prison to you, does not mean it feels the same way to everyone.
Just because something might feel like prison to you, does not mean it feels the same way to everyone.
what a whiner. there's no place for whiners in this world. no wonder he's stuck at his warehouse job. and yes, i am one to speak. i graduated college in 2001, in the midst of the dot com bust and graduated with no job awaiting me either. i stuck with it, and made it work due to my passion. if i can do it, so can everybody else. i'm sorry, but complainers disgust me. they should go cry to their mommys.
"if i can do it, so can everybody else."
No matter how many people try to become the president, there won't be enough time to let millions of people be the president during their life.
Of course the scale is wildly different with education and employment, but one should consider the environment and context of the other when making such a statement. No matter how hard you try, there will always be things you can't control; sometimes, they'll be massive blockers.
That "you just don't want enough -- that's why you fail" attitude can be insulting at best.
Edit: I'm not advocating dropping out of college. I'm currently working as a web dev during the day and studying on weeknights, specifically because I believe in education leading to better conditions (and I love learning as a whole). I just believe it's wrong to assume that if the formula works for me, it should work for everybody else.
Of course the scale is wildly different with education and employment, but one should consider the environment and context of the other when making such a statement. No matter how hard you try, there will always be things you can't control; sometimes, they'll be massive blockers.
That "you just don't want enough -- that's why you fail" attitude can be insulting at best.
Edit: I'm not advocating dropping out of college. I'm currently working as a web dev during the day and studying on weeknights, specifically because I believe in education leading to better conditions (and I love learning as a whole). I just believe it's wrong to assume that if the formula works for me, it should work for everybody else.
It is a WELL proven fact that people with college degrees earn far more during their lifetimes than those without degrees. See the second page of this report for a great graph: http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf