How to know when someone is in trouble in the water(mobile.slate.com)
mobile.slate.com
How to know when someone is in trouble in the water
http://mobile.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/family/2013/06/rescuing_drowning_children_how_to_know_when_someone_is_in_trouble_in_the.html
30 comments
From my relative who was a Boat & Water Safety person in Minnesota regarding this article:
This is a song I have been singing for years. Drowning is silent, fast, and deadly. One of the best videos I have seen on this subject is "The Reasons People Drown", produced by Dr. Pia. It is excellent, chilling, and should be watched by everyone who is responsible for or who cares about small children and non-swimmers who venture near the water.
Drowning victims are helpless, and without intervention, will be dead in one minute or less. Most drowning victims perish within 6 feet of safety, and that safety often is a person who could have rescued them if they had known what was happening within arms reach.
Re-read the description of a drowning victim and then compare it to the sight of a child at play. There are many similarities and if you are not vigilant you will never notice the differences.
If your child is near the water, you need to be near your child. And, it is not possible to adequately monitor a child in the water and read a book at the same time. Pay attention to the child only, and don't try to keep an eye on more than two at one time!
This is a song I have been singing for years. Drowning is silent, fast, and deadly. One of the best videos I have seen on this subject is "The Reasons People Drown", produced by Dr. Pia. It is excellent, chilling, and should be watched by everyone who is responsible for or who cares about small children and non-swimmers who venture near the water.
Drowning victims are helpless, and without intervention, will be dead in one minute or less. Most drowning victims perish within 6 feet of safety, and that safety often is a person who could have rescued them if they had known what was happening within arms reach.
Re-read the description of a drowning victim and then compare it to the sight of a child at play. There are many similarities and if you are not vigilant you will never notice the differences.
If your child is near the water, you need to be near your child. And, it is not possible to adequately monitor a child in the water and read a book at the same time. Pay attention to the child only, and don't try to keep an eye on more than two at one time!
I worked as a lifeguard in high school and had to save a kid once.
I didn't even think he was having trouble until one of the counselors yelled, "DIMINOTEN!" He was taking a swim test and looked just like all the other kids, except he wasn't going anywhere.
Being a lifeguard is a silly job. 99.999% of the time you're doing nothing but sitting in a chair, trying not to fall asleep. It's that ONE time when you need to be paying attention that's critical and matters absolutely.
I didn't even think he was having trouble until one of the counselors yelled, "DIMINOTEN!" He was taking a swim test and looked just like all the other kids, except he wasn't going anywhere.
Being a lifeguard is a silly job. 99.999% of the time you're doing nothing but sitting in a chair, trying not to fall asleep. It's that ONE time when you need to be paying attention that's critical and matters absolutely.
Far too many kids don't take the job seriously, and I wouldn't call it their fault. Their employer needs to keep them well trained. Unfortunately this is not nearly as common as it should be.
This is an excellent article, it was posted around 3 years ago from the original source and there was some great discussion at the time, revolving around some of the questions and opinions currently being discussed here in the comments.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1492835
It's good to see it resurface, definitely one of the more memorable articles I've ever read.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1492835
It's good to see it resurface, definitely one of the more memorable articles I've ever read.
Agreed - the articles and the commentary are fascinating.
I first read this article right around the time my son was born. I soon realized this is a really good mindset for supervising young children as well. If your kid is playing out of sight and you don't hear them for a while, go find them and see what they are doing.
"Listening for silence" is a really good skill to learn.
"Listening for silence" is a really good skill to learn.
Well, I had almost drowned once. I had a personal flotation device and I knew swimming! We were out rafting, and I had swayed away from the raft swimming in light rapids (the instructor said its very safe - which it wasn't). When I realized that the rapids were overwhelming me, I tried to stay afloat (a flotation device and know-how of floating works - but I guess I was panicked!), but did not help too much. It took me sometime to realize I was drowning, and in the meantime I had told another raft that had approached to help - that I was fine (overconfidence?). When the reality hit, it was bad, and I could not even scream. I did wave my hands, on to which my friends on the raft threw a rope, and I survived.
Even swimmers (I consider myself below average) can drown. "Panic" is to blame here. The following article explains a similar case quite here (search for "scuba-diving"):
http://www.gladwell.com/2000/2000_08_21_a_choking.html
Even swimmers (I consider myself below average) can drown. "Panic" is to blame here. The following article explains a similar case quite here (search for "scuba-diving"):
http://www.gladwell.com/2000/2000_08_21_a_choking.html
The link was for the mobile slate site. This is the non-mobile version:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/family/2013...
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/family/2013...
If this topic interests you, please consider engaging with Colin's Hope if you are able. I used to work with a member of their board of directors, and I know from direct experience that the organization is incredibly passionate about their cause.
https://www.colinshope.org
https://www.colinshope.org
When I was 10 I was at a water park and they had some sort of artificial wave generator in one of the pools. It wasn't until last year (when I first read the article) that I realized that what I experienced in that pool was Instinctive Drowning Response. Naturally I realized at the time that I had been in some sort of trouble, but not that that was drowning. The power of the whole "kicking and screaming" trope, I guess.
One of my classmates from school actually swam by me in the pool (while I was drowning) and tried to get me closer to a rope which was hanging by the pool's edge... and when he failed he promptly swam off and did nothing more. (Not that I think that he realized the full gravity of the situation and simply wanted me to die or anything.)
One of my classmates from school actually swam by me in the pool (while I was drowning) and tried to get me closer to a rope which was hanging by the pool's edge... and when he failed he promptly swam off and did nothing more. (Not that I think that he realized the full gravity of the situation and simply wanted me to die or anything.)
I'm not sure if you did this on purpose, but THANK YOU for posting the mobile version of the site. It removes a lot of the distracting spam from the main version.
I think more people should try to find a mobile version of a submission before submitting it.
I think more people should try to find a mobile version of a submission before submitting it.
Wow, that was uncomfortable to read. I had forgotten about a time where this happened to me in a regular in-ground pool (I was very young.) I can confirm the description of the article: arms extended, cant speak, mouth going in and out of the water with my head tilted up etc.
A friend noticed and got me to safety; my dad was confused and I felt very weird/blurry about how I had reacted.
Thanks.
A friend noticed and got me to safety; my dad was confused and I felt very weird/blurry about how I had reacted.
Thanks.
If you're going to swim in open water (not a pool) and there is a lifeguard, tell them you're going to go swimming and ask if there is anything you should be aware of.
They often have insights into certain areas, underwater terrain, currents and the influence of tidal changes. Also by talking with them, they will be more aware of your location.
They often have insights into certain areas, underwater terrain, currents and the influence of tidal changes. Also by talking with them, they will be more aware of your location.
Some day cameras will monitor what happens in a pool and software will be good enough to figure out when someone is drowning, releasing the nearest floatation device from the bottom of the pool.
grab the drowning person by their hair, while approaching from the rear.
Unrelated, but why does Slate disable pinchzoom for mobile devices?
The absence of screaming and waving seems obvious after reading it, I realize I am really am conditioned to think if people aren't screaming...etc they aren't in trouble.
That said there is definitely some lifeguard propaganda in the article (who knew such a thing existed?):
"From beginning to end of the Instinctive Drowning Response people’s bodies remain upright in the water, with no evidence of a supporting kick. Unless rescued by a trained lifeguard, these drowning people can only struggle on the surface of the water from 20 to 60 seconds before submersion occurs.”
That said there is definitely some lifeguard propaganda in the article (who knew such a thing existed?):
"From beginning to end of the Instinctive Drowning Response people’s bodies remain upright in the water, with no evidence of a supporting kick. Unless rescued by a trained lifeguard, these drowning people can only struggle on the surface of the water from 20 to 60 seconds before submersion occurs.”
A drowning person will endanger his rescuer by instinctively climbing onto the highest point available (the rescuer's head).
If you see someone drowning, alert a lifeguard if possible. Depending on the situation, the proper action might require the rescuer to counter intuitively drag the person under water. On the other hand, if no life guard is present, don't just let someone drown, but saving them is a risk.
source: I was a "victim" for lifeguard training.
If you see someone drowning, alert a lifeguard if possible. Depending on the situation, the proper action might require the rescuer to counter intuitively drag the person under water. On the other hand, if no life guard is present, don't just let someone drown, but saving them is a risk.
source: I was a "victim" for lifeguard training.
Agreed - saw this happen on a boat. People were diving from the boat into the sea. One fairly large guy who couldn't swim decided it looked like fun and followed suit.
At first no one realised how bad the situation was, with the next person jumping soon after. Within 20-30 seconds someone asked "hey, is he drowning?" and 4 guys (not trained as lifeguards) swam over and struggled to keep him afloat, even with a dozen foam float "sticks", he almost took them all down with him. He was quiet, there wasn't much splashing, he was trying to keep afloat with his arms and wasn't kicking with his legs at all.
It was scary and in retrospect hilarious; the guy has since gained a legendary status in the office although it could have turned out very differently - possible nomination for a Darwin award.
At first no one realised how bad the situation was, with the next person jumping soon after. Within 20-30 seconds someone asked "hey, is he drowning?" and 4 guys (not trained as lifeguards) swam over and struggled to keep him afloat, even with a dozen foam float "sticks", he almost took them all down with him. He was quiet, there wasn't much splashing, he was trying to keep afloat with his arms and wasn't kicking with his legs at all.
It was scary and in retrospect hilarious; the guy has since gained a legendary status in the office although it could have turned out very differently - possible nomination for a Darwin award.
>On the other hand, if no life guard is present, don't just let someone drown, but saving them is a risk.
If you have to do this, my thought has been it is best to approach the drowning person from behind as to make it harder for them to grasp you in their panic.
If you have to do this, my thought has been it is best to approach the drowning person from behind as to make it harder for them to grasp you in their panic.
Just curious...let's say that you see someone drowning, you aren't a trained lifeguard, and there aren't any lifeguards around. Could an untrained person rescue that person safely? Any tips?
First, the primary job for any rescuer is to not become another victim.
Be prepared for a violent altercation with the victim. The person is dying and not thinking normally. Don't be afraid to hurt the person to protect yourself.
If the situation is too much, back off and wait for the victim to lose consciousness. Pulling a drowning person from the water takes more than just strong swimming.
And again, I was only the dummy for real life guards so I basically got to act the worst possible situation. I'm sure some rescues look just like Baywatch portrays.
Be prepared for a violent altercation with the victim. The person is dying and not thinking normally. Don't be afraid to hurt the person to protect yourself.
If the situation is too much, back off and wait for the victim to lose consciousness. Pulling a drowning person from the water takes more than just strong swimming.
And again, I was only the dummy for real life guards so I basically got to act the worst possible situation. I'm sure some rescues look just like Baywatch portrays.
Is it a good idea to approach from behind and force the parson to lay back on you? (A headlock basically.) This gets their mouth out of the water so they can breath.
Once they breath for a bit they'll calm down and can help in their rescue.
Once they breath for a bit they'll calm down and can help in their rescue.
Thanks very much for taking the time to answer this - I feel better knowing more!!
Depends on the situation.
In a pool environment, always look for objects to throw. These include tubes, life hooks if available. In case you can't reach the victim, swim towards the victim (but don't reach the victim) with these objects and thrust them out. Else, approach the victim from behind and place your arms under the victims armpits. Place the safety apparatus between you and the victim and drag the victim backwards.
In an open environment with no safety apparatus, first panic and worship all the gods you know (No - don't). Then try to alert if possible. Approach the victim from behind (first para approach) and grab under victim armpits. Remember - this is extremely difficult to attempt. The victim could be heavier than you.
2 things that were repeated again and again during my lifeguard training sessions - reassure the victim as much as possible once you are in control. If you can't control the victim during the approach, pull the victim suddenly under the water. That will give the victim a pause and allow you to get free. ( There was a technique taught for that as well - lot of lifeguard manuals available online. I wish lifeguard and CPR was made mandatory at some levels.)
In a pool environment, always look for objects to throw. These include tubes, life hooks if available. In case you can't reach the victim, swim towards the victim (but don't reach the victim) with these objects and thrust them out. Else, approach the victim from behind and place your arms under the victims armpits. Place the safety apparatus between you and the victim and drag the victim backwards.
In an open environment with no safety apparatus, first panic and worship all the gods you know (No - don't). Then try to alert if possible. Approach the victim from behind (first para approach) and grab under victim armpits. Remember - this is extremely difficult to attempt. The victim could be heavier than you.
2 things that were repeated again and again during my lifeguard training sessions - reassure the victim as much as possible once you are in control. If you can't control the victim during the approach, pull the victim suddenly under the water. That will give the victim a pause and allow you to get free. ( There was a technique taught for that as well - lot of lifeguard manuals available online. I wish lifeguard and CPR was made mandatory at some levels.)
Thanks for taking the time to give out this information - I feel much better having read it. I especially appreciate that you mentioned throwing something to the victim and that you gave me some advice in case I can't control a him/her!
Finally, I agree that CPR and lifeguard training was more common, or even mandatory. I felt sick reading that article and realizing that, in certain emergency situations, I'd have absolutely no idea what to do.
Finally, I agree that CPR and lifeguard training was more common, or even mandatory. I felt sick reading that article and realizing that, in certain emergency situations, I'd have absolutely no idea what to do.
Try to rescue from afar first - throw a life ring, or anything they can grab on to.
If you must do an in person rescue, always approach from the back. If you come from the front, they'll use you as a "ladder" and climb on you, making it impossible for you to swim.
If you must do an in person rescue, always approach from the back. If you come from the front, they'll use you as a "ladder" and climb on you, making it impossible for you to swim.
Thanks for your answer - I felt sick when I read that article and realized that in some emergency situations, I'd have absolutely no idea what to do. Having a drowning person climb on me sounds like a nightmare...not as big of a nightmare as watching someone I care about drown, but still, it sounds very scary...
One thing we were taught is to pull them by their hair.
Most drowning victims are children, so they're not really strong or heavy enough to be a serious threat to an adult who is a decent swimmer (or possibly even able to stand in water where the child is drowning). It's still worth being aware of, and using a life ring or pole or lifejacket or something, but if there were a 5 year old child drowning in a pool, I don't think "might drown me too" would be a realistic fear. (obviously there are ocean/river situations where anyone would be at risk)
This get re-published every summer for good reason. Drowning happens frequently and it's theoretically preventable if people knew what to look for.
Also, be careful if you have to save a drowning person. The drowning response will cause them to instinctively push you under in an effort to get above water, so make sure you have your own floatation device so they don't end up drowning you.
Also, be careful if you have to save a drowning person. The drowning response will cause them to instinctively push you under in an effort to get above water, so make sure you have your own floatation device so they don't end up drowning you.
[deleted]
IIRC, half of the year's drowning deaths in Finland I occur during the solstice, which is happening this very instant.
Beware: it is very dangerous to attempt to rescue a full-grown person who is drowning. A person who is drowning has temporarily lost their mind and will happily drown their would-be rescuer in an attempt to stay above the water. Approach a drowning person from behind and hold them above the water by their armpits.
Approach a drowning person from behind and hold them above the water by their armpits
Unless you're a trained lifeguard this is poor advice. As stated above you don't want to get within touching/grabbing distance of a drowning person. Get some sort of intermediary between you and them, a stick, rope, shirt, pants whatever. Something that you can drop if you are at risk.
To the point below about their instincts of not grabbing it. Don't leave it out where they need to reach for it. Hit them in the head or arms with the stick or piece of clothing and they'll grab it. My first few pool rescues with a lifebouy I'd leave it within their grasp and they'd not grab it. If I hit them in the head or hands with it they'd grab it every time.
Unless you're a trained lifeguard this is poor advice. As stated above you don't want to get within touching/grabbing distance of a drowning person. Get some sort of intermediary between you and them, a stick, rope, shirt, pants whatever. Something that you can drop if you are at risk.
To the point below about their instincts of not grabbing it. Don't leave it out where they need to reach for it. Hit them in the head or arms with the stick or piece of clothing and they'll grab it. My first few pool rescues with a lifebouy I'd leave it within their grasp and they'd not grab it. If I hit them in the head or hands with it they'd grab it every time.
I had a lady next to me start to drown and grab me in a pool when I was getting my diving certification. Despite having a supply of air, wetsuit, fins and buoyancy control device on, she got that drowning sensation when her respirator came out. Once she had someone to hold onto, sanity was restored but I totally got why drowning people are dangerous from then on.
I used to teach scuba, and people would occasionally freak out and grab me as if they were trying to drown me. I wasn't too concerned about my own safety in those cases, because years of play in the ocean had taught me not to panic when unexpectedly shoved underwater. You always have some air in your lungs. Stay calm, and it will give you the time you need (unless you're in extreme conditions).
Just swim down when you are grabbed. If you kick and thrash to try to raise yourself to get your head above the water, they will feel you raising them up and try to climb on top of you for safety. So you shovel water with your arms to push yourself farther down, pulling them down just enough that their heads go underwater, too, and they'll release you quickly. They are struggling desperately to keep their heads above water and won't hang on to something that's pulling them under. Your head is already underwater, so it won't hurt you to go a little deeper, but if you panic and try to fight toward the surface, they might hold you under until it's too late for you. Go down.
Once they release, you push back out of reach, get your air at the surface, and figure out how to help them.
Just swim down when you are grabbed. If you kick and thrash to try to raise yourself to get your head above the water, they will feel you raising them up and try to climb on top of you for safety. So you shovel water with your arms to push yourself farther down, pulling them down just enough that their heads go underwater, too, and they'll release you quickly. They are struggling desperately to keep their heads above water and won't hang on to something that's pulling them under. Your head is already underwater, so it won't hurt you to go a little deeper, but if you panic and try to fight toward the surface, they might hold you under until it's too late for you. Go down.
Once they release, you push back out of reach, get your air at the surface, and figure out how to help them.
The biggest issue I had during initial training was the mask leak/loss/purge drill. From what I recall, it's a side-effect of the Diving Reflex[1] that cold water on the face (and nose especially) makes it quite difficult to keep breathing, even when you have a perfectly functional regulator in the mouth. It gets better with practice, but it's terrifying the first time, when you want to breathe, and your body is trying to stop you.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammalian_diving_reflex
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammalian_diving_reflex
Wow... whoever this person is, I sincerely hope they were not certified (in that attempt). This person is almost guaranteed to lose it at the first minor hassle (say getting wrapped in kelp) underwater.
Most lifeguards that I know are trained not to jump in after a drowning victim EVER unless they have a strong floatation device--the lifeguard tube. Supposedly most of the larger ones should be able to support 5 people. Drowning victims are so dangerous that even people who are trained can run into issues.
We do active drowning victim training in which we lose our floatation device. Part of our training includes freeing ourselves from the victim. I've personally never had a victim panic when I got close to the point of endangering me. We're basically taught to poke them with the tube until they grab on.
You're right though, the safety of the rescuer always comes first.
You're right though, the safety of the rescuer always comes first.
I had something like that, too.
The worst part was we were supposed to look the other way and have them come up behind us and tackle us in the water. The worst part was having a 300 lbs old guy doing who isn't a fan of making it easy.
The worst part was we were supposed to look the other way and have them come up behind us and tackle us in the water. The worst part was having a 300 lbs old guy doing who isn't a fan of making it easy.
It depends on the group certifying you. The two that I know are common in my area (Chicago) are Red Cross and Ellis and Associates (EA). I worked for a group that did EA, thus why most of the lifeguards I know are trained not to touch victims without tubes (I actually was a trainer for Starfish Aquatics, which was kind of a spit of EA).
I know Red Cross teaches releases, I think EA might have a small paragraph in the book devoted to it, but a large section on the importance of the lifeguard tube.
I've saved > 10 kids over the years I guarded and never had an issue with grabby victims, but 90% of my victims were kids in 5ft of water. I did have a coworker get grabbed in a 12ft diving well once though. Thankfully she was able to get free.
I know Red Cross teaches releases, I think EA might have a small paragraph in the book devoted to it, but a large section on the importance of the lifeguard tube.
I've saved > 10 kids over the years I guarded and never had an issue with grabby victims, but 90% of my victims were kids in 5ft of water. I did have a coworker get grabbed in a 12ft diving well once though. Thankfully she was able to get free.
There's this myth that in the early days lifeguards were trained to literally punch victims in the nose to knock them out - or bring them back to themselves - to facilitate rescue.
When I was in Boy Scouts they said if a drowning person was pushing you under, you should dive to make them let go. Anyone with experience know if that works?
Yes, see my comment elsewhere on this page. I've done it more than once, and it always worked like a charm. Desperate people will try to get on top of you if you are floating; they'll drop you if you are dragging them under. I've always been larger than the people panicking, so I can't be sure a small person could drag a larger person under, but if your head is already under, trying to go deeper is your only viable option. If you try to come up, you'll have to lift them, and they'll stay on top of you.
More specifically, lifeguards are taught to turn their heads (so the chin is over the shoulder) and push up on the victim. This makes the victim feel safer by getting them further out of the water, and puts some distance between you and the victim.
Red Cross lifesaving taught me a similar technique: approach the drowner from behind and underwater. You go under the water and feel your way up from his legs to the back of his thorax staying in contact. When you get to the surface you cross an arm over one shoulder and under the other and pull the drowner backward into a prone position face up. Surprisingly, once you've got a hold on someone in the water its easy to stay behind them no matter how they move.
I never gave much thought to the effect this might have in open water if the drowner did not see you approaching - suddenly something underwater is grabbing him and controlling his movement - Jaws!8-))
I never gave much thought to the effect this might have in open water if the drowner did not see you approaching - suddenly something underwater is grabbing him and controlling his movement - Jaws!8-))
Your best bet is to knock them unconscious, them pull them safely to shore. It's safer for both of you.
Edit: actually perhaps not the best idea.
Edit: actually perhaps not the best idea.
Knocking them out isn't a great idea, but (many years ago) in lifeguard training I was taught that waiting for the victim to go unconscious, if you couldn't safely deal with them, was preferable to having two drowning victims.
First rule of rescue: your own safety first. Not only does that minimise the casualties, but if you're injured or dead you can't help others anyway
First rule of rescue: your own safety first. Not only does that minimise the casualties, but if you're injured or dead you can't help others anyway
Is it really such a bad idea? If you have no other option, and they are going to die, risking brain injury seems worth it.
Knocking someone unconscious while swimming sounds difficult. I have a hard time imagining a situation where your energy is best spent punching the drowning person rather than trying to drag them ashore.
Knocking someone unconscious isn't exactly easy or reliable, especially when you're both in the water. If you really want them to pass out, you might as well start pushing them under water (or wait until they loose consciousness from drowning) or choking them.
Better yet, get a stick or rope and pull them to safety. They will grab onto whatever is within their grasp.
did you mean to contradict the article or did you not even read it?
Throughout the Instinctive Drowning Response, drowning people cannot voluntarily control their arm movements. Physiologically, drowning people who are struggling on the surface of the water cannot stop drowning and perform voluntary movements such as waving for help, moving toward a rescuer, or reaching out for a piece of rescue equipment.
Throughout the Instinctive Drowning Response, drowning people cannot voluntarily control their arm movements. Physiologically, drowning people who are struggling on the surface of the water cannot stop drowning and perform voluntary movements such as waving for help, moving toward a rescuer, or reaching out for a piece of rescue equipment.
Both the article and the previous commenter are correct. People in late stages of drowning can't swim toward you, but they certainly will grasp on to you when you reach out to rescue them. If this happens, the rescuer will frequently submerge himself and use their legs and arms to forcefully push away from the victim before reengaging from behind.
(Source: I was an ocean lifeguard for seven years in high school and college and have experienced this)
Was waiting for someone to say this. They (Surf life saving Australia) teach the same here. I've only ever been involved in board or IRB rescues in real life but the old sea dogs say that it works wonders if they do grab into you: drop like a stone because the last thing a drowning person wants is to be attached to a person who is going under the water given their desperate struggle to keep their head up
Throughout the Instinctive Drowning Response, drowning people cannot voluntarily control their arm movements. Physiologically, drowning people who are struggling on the surface of the water cannot stop drowning and perform voluntary movements such as waving for help, moving toward a rescuer, or reaching out for a piece of rescue equipment.
They won't reach out for it, but if it happens to be within their reach they'll grab it.
They won't reach out for it, but if it happens to be within their reach they'll grab it.
I've had water rescue training. I read the article as well.
Parent comment was addressing a drowning person victimizing the rescuer, which also seems to contradict the article.
Parent comment was addressing a drowning person victimizing the rescuer, which also seems to contradict the article.
You're right - I'm making assumptions when imagining the situations described in my head and jumping to unfair conclusions about your point.
When I imagine a person in the water trying to help it seems obvious that if you're next to them in the water they will clamber on to you and do whatever they can to keep their mouth out of the water to breathe.
When I image holding some object out for them to grab it seems the greater chance is that they wont be aware of the object, or unable to reach the object.
However a rescuer with actual knowledge would be aware of the situation and would ensure they physically touch them with the object so they have to be aware of it.
When I imagine a person in the water trying to help it seems obvious that if you're next to them in the water they will clamber on to you and do whatever they can to keep their mouth out of the water to breathe.
When I image holding some object out for them to grab it seems the greater chance is that they wont be aware of the object, or unable to reach the object.
However a rescuer with actual knowledge would be aware of the situation and would ensure they physically touch them with the object so they have to be aware of it.
Yeah, though it's not even about forcing them to be aware of it. Like you quoted from the article, "cannot voluntarily control their arm movements".
So the question is, what's the Override Software doing with their arms? It's climbing a ladder, it's scrambling up a vine, it's hauling the body onto a boulder. If there's no ladder/vine/boulder, it's a shitty strategy, and they'll drown pretty soon.
If there's a rescuer in reach, like a foot from them, they'll climb the rescuer, unconsciously. If they drown the rescuer, they gain a minute of life, then they drown themselves. So that's bad for everyone.
If there's a life-saving device where they have to think about it and grab it, they cannot. Not will not, but cannot. But if the life-saving device arranges to be grabbed, they climb it. That's actually useful! If it floats, they can climb it and not-drown. If it's a rope, as they climb it, you can pull them to safety.
So, again. You can't count on the cooperation of the drowning victim, and it's not because they're "stupid" or something, it's because they're not people right now. But you can count on their body doing certain things.
So the question is, what's the Override Software doing with their arms? It's climbing a ladder, it's scrambling up a vine, it's hauling the body onto a boulder. If there's no ladder/vine/boulder, it's a shitty strategy, and they'll drown pretty soon.
If there's a rescuer in reach, like a foot from them, they'll climb the rescuer, unconsciously. If they drown the rescuer, they gain a minute of life, then they drown themselves. So that's bad for everyone.
If there's a life-saving device where they have to think about it and grab it, they cannot. Not will not, but cannot. But if the life-saving device arranges to be grabbed, they climb it. That's actually useful! If it floats, they can climb it and not-drown. If it's a rope, as they climb it, you can pull them to safety.
So, again. You can't count on the cooperation of the drowning victim, and it's not because they're "stupid" or something, it's because they're not people right now. But you can count on their body doing certain things.
As a reasonably strong swimmer with no life saving experience - giving or receiving - this conversation is pretty fascinating, especially the casual nature experienced rescuers are saying things such as
> they're not people right now
This strikes me as an incredibly interesting concept. I wonder what other situations arise semi-frequently where participants temporarily abandon their people-ness? Has this notion been legally tested? If in a state of non-people-ness I drown my rescuer yet then survive, have I committed murder?
It's this kind of random tangent into conversations where knowledgeable people frankly discuss things I had never even imagined that I love about HN (and, to a lesser extent, reddit). FFS, I have a swimming pool downstairs. This conversation has made me realise I have no idea how to save someone I see drowning in it - if I can even identify they are drowning. I'm glad I'm reading it.
> they're not people right now
This strikes me as an incredibly interesting concept. I wonder what other situations arise semi-frequently where participants temporarily abandon their people-ness? Has this notion been legally tested? If in a state of non-people-ness I drown my rescuer yet then survive, have I committed murder?
It's this kind of random tangent into conversations where knowledgeable people frankly discuss things I had never even imagined that I love about HN (and, to a lesser extent, reddit). FFS, I have a swimming pool downstairs. This conversation has made me realise I have no idea how to save someone I see drowning in it - if I can even identify they are drowning. I'm glad I'm reading it.
While I have lots of training as a rescuer (which motivated my previous comment), I actually have zero working experience.
Life-saving training is interesting and cheap (I believe it's subsidized by non-profits)! I recommend it! The Red Cross is one good organization. And note that they offer training specifically for pool owners (though I'm guessing you don't own the pool, merely rent in the same building or something).
Life-saving training is interesting and cheap (I believe it's subsidized by non-profits)! I recommend it! The Red Cross is one good organization. And note that they offer training specifically for pool owners (though I'm guessing you don't own the pool, merely rent in the same building or something).
In the moral sense? No, clearly you have not committed murder.
In the legal sense? Um. That would get interesting. I imagine that if the court knows what happened, the answer would be 'no', but if no-one there knows this kind of thing might happen (including you) you might have a problem.
In the legal sense? Um. That would get interesting. I imagine that if the court knows what happened, the answer would be 'no', but if no-one there knows this kind of thing might happen (including you) you might have a problem.
You're right - I'm making assumptions when imagining the situations described in my head and jumping to unfair conclusions about your point.
Kudos for this.
If the drowning person puts you in danger, because he/she clings too tight and there's a risk that both of you will drown, the solution is to punch or even break their nose to cause a shock so that the person lets go. Or pull/push him/her under water and wait until they are unconscious and then attempt to rescue.
This device on IndieGogo seems really promising:
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-seal-wearable-swim-mon...
It is just too easy not to notice a drowning person, especially a child, even if they are right in front of you.
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-seal-wearable-swim-mon...
It is just too easy not to notice a drowning person, especially a child, even if they are right in front of you.
How does it work? I assume it's a water pressure sensor which requires more than a foot or two of water to activate, and some kind of timer, combined with the transmitter? (otherwise a collar doesn't really work -- I can keep my neck immersed in water all day and not drown...)
From another site [1], it seems as if it monitors the amount of time spent underwater, and is activated if this exceeds a preset amount of time.
[1] http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/28/seal_syst...
[1] http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/28/seal_syst...
This seems like a great concept, but I'm curious as to how it works, how reliable/comfortable it is to wear, how it deals with false positives, and so on. The fundraiser page doesn't seem to address any of that.
"""How did this captain know—from 50 feet away—what the father couldn’t recognize from just 10? Drowning is not the violent, splashing call for help that most people expect. The captain was trained to recognize drowning by experts and years of experience. The father, on the other hand, had learned what drowning looks like by watching television.
(...)
Drowning is almost always a deceptively quiet event."""
I think there should be a law against showing kicking&screaming drowning people in movies. I'm not a fan of censorship otherwise, but here we have a clear case where movies occasionally lead to lost lives.
I think there should be a law against showing kicking&screaming drowning people in movies. I'm not a fan of censorship otherwise, but here we have a clear case where movies occasionally lead to lost lives.
You would need a much more comprehensive overview process to eliminate misleading information from movies, even if it were limited to life-threatening misinformation!
One instance I can think of is MRI magnets. Often, a medical drama will cut to someone pushing a button and the magnet coming on. In reality, the magnets are always on and bringing metal objects within range can have dire consequences.
The whole movie Home Alone depicts life-threatening pranks on the burglars. c.f. dropping a clothing iron 3 stories onto someone's face.
One instance I can think of is MRI magnets. Often, a medical drama will cut to someone pushing a button and the magnet coming on. In reality, the magnets are always on and bringing metal objects within range can have dire consequences.
The whole movie Home Alone depicts life-threatening pranks on the burglars. c.f. dropping a clothing iron 3 stories onto someone's face.
Banning the portrayal of drivers looking at their passengers while talking to them would probably save more lives than banning inaccurate portrayals of drowning.
Correct. However, drowning is high on the list[1] of common causes of injury death for children. Vehicle accidents are the 1st for ages 5-24.
[1] http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Unintentional_D...
[1] http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Unintentional_D...
Fine, let's do both. I can't think a of valid reason the driver should be looking at passengers while talking (I mean, not in the mirror).
The law could really just affect swimming and driving. Both activities are common and can result in death if you're not careful.
The law could really just affect swimming and driving. Both activities are common and can result in death if you're not careful.
I don't know, I think looking at passengers while talking is something you do once and then realise that it is stupid.
I did it once, because it seemed natural to look at the person I was talking to, but I immediately felt endangered and have never done it since.
Whereas with the inaccurate portrayal of drowning response, by the time you've realised that what you're doing is wrong somebody is dead.
I did it once, because it seemed natural to look at the person I was talking to, but I immediately felt endangered and have never done it since.
Whereas with the inaccurate portrayal of drowning response, by the time you've realised that what you're doing is wrong somebody is dead.
At least in the case of Home Alone, actors show signs of pain and even injury. From there it's a matter of magnitude.
In case of drowning, it's the difference between nothing happening and someone dying. Not someone drowning slightly.
It's not just drowning. There's actually a whole category[1] on TV Tropes for things portrayed in dangerously misleading ways. The misleading portrayals of heart attacks and first aid in general are some of the things that worry me the most.
[1] (Warning! TV Tropes is the most addictive website I know of. Proceed only if you know how to handle it and/or have nowhere to be for several hours.) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TelevisionIsTryin...
[1] (Warning! TV Tropes is the most addictive website I know of. Proceed only if you know how to handle it and/or have nowhere to be for several hours.) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TelevisionIsTryin...
OT: What's with the triple quotes? English isn't Python. They have different syntaxes.
My pet peeve is when people are bleeding to death onscreen as their friends just watch. What a great opportunity to give just a bit of lifesaving information by showing them apply pressure to stop the bleeding.
Fingers resting on triggers when not shooting, then, too.
"I shot Marvin in the face!"
"I shot Marvin in the face!"
[deleted]
color: rgb(102,102,102)
Why do so many publishers make their content so hard to read?
(Once I fixed that with inspectElement, the article was good.)
You're using chrome on windows right? The linked URL is their mobile site and the text container has been 3dtransformed forcing grayscale antialiasing which Chrome does poorly.
Check it out on Firefox or IE and you'll see what I mean.
It will look much better on a mobile device as well. If you drop "mobile." from the url you'll get their normal desktop site which also has much better type in Windows Chrome.
Check it out on Firefox or IE and you'll see what I mean.
It will look much better on a mobile device as well. If you drop "mobile." from the url you'll get their normal desktop site which also has much better type in Windows Chrome.
I'm using Firefox.
I do have some ambient light. Maybe if I replaced the curtains in my window with true blackout curtains this would look ok.
I do have some ambient light. Maybe if I replaced the curtains in my window with true blackout curtains this would look ok.
I'm guessing this happens when a designer has a bright LCD screen and thinks black on white has too much contrast.
Which is often the case. Reading pure-black on pure-white hurts my eyes, so I often have to tune this knob the other way.
The actual problem is the lack of a brightness-controlled colorspace.
The actual problem is the lack of a brightness-controlled colorspace.
If it hurts your eyes, why not turn down the brightness and/or set up f.lux or redshift?
I use f.lux, and it's great, but it doesn't affect brightness.
I don't want to turn down the brightness because then I've turned down the maximum brightness. My brightness tolerance runs on a curve - at one end, there's the brightness I'm okay with for the page as a whole; on the other end, there's the brightness that's okay for a single pixel, and they're nowhere near each other.
Logically, then, you should never use #FFF for large areas.
I don't want to turn down the brightness because then I've turned down the maximum brightness. My brightness tolerance runs on a curve - at one end, there's the brightness I'm okay with for the page as a whole; on the other end, there's the brightness that's okay for a single pixel, and they're nowhere near each other.
Logically, then, you should never use #FFF for large areas.
That's a good point, I guess I just gave up on that battle long ago.
(Well, not entirely. Games don't get my redshift color+brightness adjustments, and I used to be able to play video without the adjustments as well.)
(Well, not entirely. Games don't get my redshift color+brightness adjustments, and I used to be able to play video without the adjustments as well.)
I can confirm the article. Almost drowned once in a river: I let myself go with the current and, once I tried swimming back, realized I accidentally went into strong currents.
I tried swimming harder, but eventually got tired and sunk. Despite my friends being about 20/30 meters away from me, they didn't realize I was drowning. I couldn't scream for help nor do anything but trying to stick my head out and breathe. I couldn't stay afloat long enough to cause any water splash either.
Fortunately I touched a rock that was sticking out from the bottom with my foot and stood there for a bit to recover and go back.
Be careful this summer!
I tried swimming harder, but eventually got tired and sunk. Despite my friends being about 20/30 meters away from me, they didn't realize I was drowning. I couldn't scream for help nor do anything but trying to stick my head out and breathe. I couldn't stay afloat long enough to cause any water splash either.
Fortunately I touched a rock that was sticking out from the bottom with my foot and stood there for a bit to recover and go back.
Be careful this summer!
Ditto. I remember my drowning in a swimming pool very vividly. I was around 9 at the time, couldn't swim and was sitting on one of those foam floats. A friend of mine (he didn't know about my lack of swimming ability) pushed me off the float right in the middle of the deep end. This is where the article's description really hits home with me:
1. I wasn't able to stay afloat in my vertical position (as described)
2. I tried to scream for help, but ended up with a mouth full of chlorine water each time
3. No adults/kids were reacting to me at all
4. I accepted (3) and decided to take matters into my own hands
5. Took the biggest breath I could (wasn't very big), stuck my head underwater, opened my eyes and "swam" as hard as I could to the edge of the pool ... I blacked out on the way
6. An adult found me unconscious underwater, holding onto the side of the pool, blue in the face
7. CPR
8. I'm here to tell the tale \o/
(edit: formatting)
1. I wasn't able to stay afloat in my vertical position (as described)
2. I tried to scream for help, but ended up with a mouth full of chlorine water each time
3. No adults/kids were reacting to me at all
4. I accepted (3) and decided to take matters into my own hands
5. Took the biggest breath I could (wasn't very big), stuck my head underwater, opened my eyes and "swam" as hard as I could to the edge of the pool ... I blacked out on the way
6. An adult found me unconscious underwater, holding onto the side of the pool, blue in the face
7. CPR
8. I'm here to tell the tale \o/
(edit: formatting)
Doesn't sound like the drowning reflex kicked in for you, there.
I can offer some advice on swift-water river safety.
1. avoid swimming in moving water unless you know it and everything downstream of it very well
2. if you're boating (canoe, tube, etc) on swift moving water always wear a personal flotation device. no exceptions.(a)
3. if you find yourself in moving water, swim lateral to the flow - never upstream
4. the safest orientation of your body is lying on your back, feet downstream (though this isnt the most effective for moving laterally, so this is best used through rapids, for example)
5. swimming across eddylines can be difficult. the easiest way is to do a torpedo stroke, which is like an alternating front crawl stoke / back stroke, with your body rotating around its long axis with each stroke. I would link to a video of it, but I cant find one...
a) - i've swum in tame swift-water in downtown Denver w/o a PFD, and I've swum (accidentally) in raging swift-water with a PFD. The former was far more unpleasant, and resulted in more swallowed water.
1. avoid swimming in moving water unless you know it and everything downstream of it very well
2. if you're boating (canoe, tube, etc) on swift moving water always wear a personal flotation device. no exceptions.(a)
3. if you find yourself in moving water, swim lateral to the flow - never upstream
4. the safest orientation of your body is lying on your back, feet downstream (though this isnt the most effective for moving laterally, so this is best used through rapids, for example)
5. swimming across eddylines can be difficult. the easiest way is to do a torpedo stroke, which is like an alternating front crawl stoke / back stroke, with your body rotating around its long axis with each stroke. I would link to a video of it, but I cant find one...
a) - i've swum in tame swift-water in downtown Denver w/o a PFD, and I've swum (accidentally) in raging swift-water with a PFD. The former was far more unpleasant, and resulted in more swallowed water.
Try searching for corkscrew stroke, here's a kid trying it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVLTXKGE7TE
I had a similar experience... At about age 11, I decided to swim across a river and 3/4 the way across I got cramp (or something) and panicked. While I was dipping below the surface, a motor boat even circled around me without doing anything. Luckily my older sister was nearby and called for help; two guys then dived in from bank and pulled me out.
Glad you made it. I had a similar experience, in strong currents. It was a long time ago but I cannot think of it without my heart racing and panicking all over again.
This. Strong currents in natural bodies of water (rivers, ocean... even close to the beach) will overwhelm even the strongest swimmers/divers. Overconfidence will kill you, literally.
Here[1] is the publication where the article gets its description of Instinctive Drowning Response. Skip to page 14 (pdf).
[1] http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg534/On%20Scene/OSFall06.pdf
[1] http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg534/On%20Scene/OSFall06.pdf
I spent a couple of summers as a lifeguard at a college swimming pool, and I have seen this first-hand.
As a lifeguard, I was well trained in how to rescue but not particularly well trained in how to recognize a drowning victim. There was a time I watched a boy bobbing up and down in the water, looking upward, mouth open, but not appearing to gasp for breath, the whole time wondering if he was in trouble. Luckily he was less than two yards from his mother, and she eventually picked him up. (Also luckily for me, she didn't think anything of it, or I might have been in trouble -- she probably didn't recognize that he was actually drowning either!) Only when I read the original publication of this article was I certain that he had been drowning at the time.
A side-note so that I don't seem like a complete abomination of a lifeguard: I did save a drowning victim at that pool. She displayed the TV-portrayed signs of drowning after jumping off the diving board with no idea how to swim. Probably due to the adrenaline rush, the rescue is a bit fuzzy, but that's where the lifeguard training kicks in.
As a lifeguard, I was well trained in how to rescue but not particularly well trained in how to recognize a drowning victim. There was a time I watched a boy bobbing up and down in the water, looking upward, mouth open, but not appearing to gasp for breath, the whole time wondering if he was in trouble. Luckily he was less than two yards from his mother, and she eventually picked him up. (Also luckily for me, she didn't think anything of it, or I might have been in trouble -- she probably didn't recognize that he was actually drowning either!) Only when I read the original publication of this article was I certain that he had been drowning at the time.
A side-note so that I don't seem like a complete abomination of a lifeguard: I did save a drowning victim at that pool. She displayed the TV-portrayed signs of drowning after jumping off the diving board with no idea how to swim. Probably due to the adrenaline rush, the rescue is a bit fuzzy, but that's where the lifeguard training kicks in.
>She displayed the TV-portrayed signs of drowning after jumping off the diving board with no idea how to swim. Probably due to the adrenaline rush, the rescue is a bit fuzzy, but that's where the lifeguard training kicks in.
My guess is that the reason was that she was not drowning yet. She probably would have if you hadn't saved her, but in her case she had a few pre-drowning moments in which to react. The difference would be that she consciously knew that she was screwed as soon as she was in the water, since she didn't know how to swim.
My guess is that the reason was that she was not drowning yet. She probably would have if you hadn't saved her, but in her case she had a few pre-drowning moments in which to react. The difference would be that she consciously knew that she was screwed as soon as she was in the water, since she didn't know how to swim.
Yes, something most people don't know about drowning is that it is typically defined as the point at which breathing is interrupted and the person is mostly motionless, usually perpendicular to the surface of the water. Sometimes before beginning to drown a person will become a distressed swimmer, which is what people think of as stereotypical drowning behavior. People in this stage often need rescuing, but they are not drowning. The trick is that while people often go from distressed to drowning, people that are drowning may never go through the distressed stage.
Another bit that makes drowning deceptive is that most of the time the victim will be in relatively shallow water or fairly close to the edge of the pool. If you can't swim its usually hard to get out to deep/open water (unless in a beach break) so a lot of kids that struggle will do so within a foot or two of being able to reach a wall or shallow enough water to stand up in.
Which brings up the obvious advice: if you're going to take your kids to the beach, or to the pool, teach them how to swim! Teach them young enough that they haven't yet developed an instinctive fear of water; then they'll be natural swimmers for life. (I learned to swim at about age 6 months.) If you can't teach them yourself, find a program at the local pool or rec center.
I don't think you really learned to swim at 6 months. At that age you are learning to be comfortable with the water, but you have a ways to go before you can actually swim. Your parents probably told you that you were able to swim because you were successful in whatever they were trying to do at that age.
source: My children are in infant swim classes.
source: My children are in infant swim classes.
I don't think you really learned to swim at 6 months.
You're correct that my statement is only true for certain values of "swim". :) Being comfortable with the water is probably a more accurate description of what's achievable at that age, yes.
However, I used the term "swim" to make the point that what kids learn as infants is just the beginning; to really reduce their risk of drowning, they have to continue advancing to the point where the really can "actually swim". I was at that point by about age 4 1/2.
You're correct that my statement is only true for certain values of "swim". :) Being comfortable with the water is probably a more accurate description of what's achievable at that age, yes.
However, I used the term "swim" to make the point that what kids learn as infants is just the beginning; to really reduce their risk of drowning, they have to continue advancing to the point where the really can "actually swim". I was at that point by about age 4 1/2.
A video would be helpful. I'm not confident I could recognize all those signs from the descriptions.
There's a video linked at the end of the article:
http://mariovittone.com/2011/07/video-of-instinctive-drownin...
http://mariovittone.com/2011/07/video-of-instinctive-drownin...
Only lifeguards need to be able to spot it at 50'. And they'll get training.
For everyone else: you only need to spot the silence. People in water make noise and move. If anyone isn't doing that, talk to them. You don't have to say "hey, are you drowning?" just "hi" or strike up some small talk.
If they aren't responding and don't seem to be doing anything but bobbing along with their mouth barely above water, that continued silence is what should urge you into further action.
For everyone else: you only need to spot the silence. People in water make noise and move. If anyone isn't doing that, talk to them. You don't have to say "hey, are you drowning?" just "hi" or strike up some small talk.
If they aren't responding and don't seem to be doing anything but bobbing along with their mouth barely above water, that continued silence is what should urge you into further action.
[deleted]
Http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=X1mVcSUttX4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DX1mVcSUttX4
This happened to me once in a pool and until I read an article like this I didn't even know I was drowning. I was 5 or 6 and was in a swimming class. I remember going up and down and not being able to say anything or do anything but that. I don't think anyone noticed me but I may be wrong. What saved me was that the pool bottom was slanted so every time I went down I touched it just a bit but enough to push me slowly to the shallower end.
It is really scary to think that you could have drowned in swimming class. I will definitely be attentive of my own children when they are learning. Glad you survived!
In addition to the point of this piece, please read the following for comprehensive guidelines with regard to water safety:
http://www.redcross.org/prepare/disaster/water-safety
For those heading to the beach, please be aware of the rip current phenomenon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_current
http://www.ripcurrents.noaa.gov
http://www.redcross.org/prepare/disaster/water-safety
For those heading to the beach, please be aware of the rip current phenomenon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_current
http://www.ripcurrents.noaa.gov
We decided to have a swimming race. About halfway through I was completely exhausted, both from being out of shape and not being a very good swimmer in the first place. At that point I stopped to rest and realized that my feet couldn't hit the bottom. I recall my mouth being above and then below water, along with panic. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I got the idea to try and backfloat, which I was able to do. After resting a bit I was able to direct myself to shallow water again.
At the time I didn't think too much of it, but when I reflect upon it I think that I was drowning. My friends were indeed not far away, and I couldn't yell or thrash my hands around. It's scary to consider that I could have died while so close to them!