Mac OS Screenshot does not Allow DVD Player to Appear in Captured Region(jacobirw.wordpress.com)
jacobirw.wordpress.com
Mac OS Screenshot does not Allow DVD Player to Appear in Captured Region
http://jacobirw.wordpress.com/2013/05/30/mac-os-screenshot-does-not-allow-dvd-player-to-appear-in-captured-region/
79 comments
Yeah not the case on OSX. Everything is sent as a texture to the GPU.
It's just that they'd be explicitly excluding that texture from being grabbed in a screencap.
It's just that they'd be explicitly excluding that texture from being grabbed in a screencap.
It's not that clear cut. "Linux" has many options when it comes to rendering and overlaying video and many of them let you take screenshots. The experience can also be vastly altered by particular video card and driver combos.
Thanks for that. I (and I guess a lot of other commenters) hadn't considered that there might be a totally innocent explanation.
Come to think of it, I've noticed this behaviour in the past.
Come to think of it, I've noticed this behaviour in the past.
Well why should you consider something like that when it's easier for the other commenters to just assume that it's some draconian company with horrible intentions?
Could you ever imagine buying a house that doesn't allow you to perform certain activities inside its walls, because the architects and engineers who built it disapprove, and they're fully in control of it?
Neither would I. It wouldn't be true ownership. Yet that's exactly what's happening here. The OP bought a Mac, but he can't perform certain activities, because the company that built it disapproves, and they control his machine.
"Your" Mac does what you want, but only if Apple and its partners are OK with it. Is it really "yours?"
Neither would I. It wouldn't be true ownership. Yet that's exactly what's happening here. The OP bought a Mac, but he can't perform certain activities, because the company that built it disapproves, and they control his machine.
"Your" Mac does what you want, but only if Apple and its partners are OK with it. Is it really "yours?"
To keep in tune with your analogy, it's not so much the architect / engineers that are building the house that are wanting to prevent you from doing things, it's the outside influences.
Similar to how local government in the United States can dictate guidelines on how your house should look externally etc, building code on how it should be constructed etc.
Basically it's the MPAA that are really creating these restrictions, not Apple.
Similar to how local government in the United States can dictate guidelines on how your house should look externally etc, building code on how it should be constructed etc.
Basically it's the MPAA that are really creating these restrictions, not Apple.
> it's not so much the architect / engineers that are building the house that are wanting to prevent you from doing things, it's the outside influences.
I wonder what "outside influence" runs the iTunes store?
IMO parent is right, the situation looks like real estate developer with interest in selling as many apartments as possible selling you a "smart" apartment which counts people inside and doesn't allow more than one family to live there.
I wonder what "outside influence" runs the iTunes store?
IMO parent is right, the situation looks like real estate developer with interest in selling as many apartments as possible selling you a "smart" apartment which counts people inside and doesn't allow more than one family to live there.
If you're talking about the App store then no one. If it's the approval process that you're worried about then that's an issue with their philosophy
If we're talking about the rest of the store where they sell books and movies and music you better believe that there is outside influence dictating how they can sell products.
I'd also be curious to know if anyone complaining about this has actually seen the OS and screenshot and dvd player source code. There could be technical limitations that we are not aware of. Chances are that there are none, and if that's the case then you only have the movie studios to blame, not apple.
If we're talking about the rest of the store where they sell books and movies and music you better believe that there is outside influence dictating how they can sell products.
I'd also be curious to know if anyone complaining about this has actually seen the OS and screenshot and dvd player source code. There could be technical limitations that we are not aware of. Chances are that there are none, and if that's the case then you only have the movie studios to blame, not apple.
> If we're talking about the rest of the store where they sell books and movies and music you better believe that there is outside influence dictating how they can sell products.
Yes, obviously I'm talking about this. And the issue is not about how they sell these products, but what they want customers to do with other media. I don't think any studio would deny them permission to sell their stuff just because it's possible to screenshot DVD movies purchased in the meat world.
And face it, by running this store Apple has as much interest as Hollywood in indoctrinating people that "The Content shall never be copied".
Yes, obviously I'm talking about this. And the issue is not about how they sell these products, but what they want customers to do with other media. I don't think any studio would deny them permission to sell their stuff just because it's possible to screenshot DVD movies purchased in the meat world.
And face it, by running this store Apple has as much interest as Hollywood in indoctrinating people that "The Content shall never be copied".
> because the company that built it disapproves
Or because the company that built it has to adhere to the rules dictated to it by whatever the DVD-playback licensing authority is.
e.g. see this article on why DVD playback in many Linux distros is illegal http://www.itworld.com/open-source/105736/legalizing-linux-d...
The problem is the DMCA, not Apple. At worst, Apple is being overly restrictive here just to cover their asses -- which is bad, admittedly, but it's the law that needs to change.
> and they control his machine.
But they don't. This is why we can all install VLC :) or even an alternative OS if we choose.
Or because the company that built it has to adhere to the rules dictated to it by whatever the DVD-playback licensing authority is.
e.g. see this article on why DVD playback in many Linux distros is illegal http://www.itworld.com/open-source/105736/legalizing-linux-d...
The problem is the DMCA, not Apple. At worst, Apple is being overly restrictive here just to cover their asses -- which is bad, admittedly, but it's the law that needs to change.
> and they control his machine.
But they don't. This is why we can all install VLC :) or even an alternative OS if we choose.
Apple is not an innocent victim here. They could fight the DMCA on a number of levels.
Instead they implement their own DRM (e.g. for iTunes) and invent whole new kinds of locked-down platforms. (App store)
They talk about smashing big brother but they sell telescreens.
Instead they implement their own DRM (e.g. for iTunes) and invent whole new kinds of locked-down platforms. (App store)
They talk about smashing big brother but they sell telescreens.
That's overblowing it a little bit. Has anyone tried doing the same thing with third party DVD playback software? I haven't but I think chances are good that it'll work.
This sort of thing is just par for the course and I see no reason to be upset over it (not saying you are, just generally). You've got a for-profit company with close partnerships and deals with various media companies plus their own iTunes store. Of course this is going to happen. But is it a big deal? It's sure a pain in the ass if you really need a screenshot of the DVD you're watching but if you really need it you'll find a way around it.
This sort of thing is just par for the course and I see no reason to be upset over it (not saying you are, just generally). You've got a for-profit company with close partnerships and deals with various media companies plus their own iTunes store. Of course this is going to happen. But is it a big deal? It's sure a pain in the ass if you really need a screenshot of the DVD you're watching but if you really need it you'll find a way around it.
> But is it a big deal?
It's a deal breaker for me. My present computer doesn't have a DVD drive, but even if it did, I wouldn't buy or use a DVD unless I'm in control. I would rather download from BitTorrent -- not only is it free as in beer it is also free as in freedom, which is more important.
Computers are already ubiquitous and this will only get more true. If they do what governments and corporations want instead of what their users want, then they will become a massive tool for oppression, an oppression more fine-grained than anything Hitler or Stalin dreamed of.
Treacherous computing is an evil, and all good people should have nothing to do with it.
It's a deal breaker for me. My present computer doesn't have a DVD drive, but even if it did, I wouldn't buy or use a DVD unless I'm in control. I would rather download from BitTorrent -- not only is it free as in beer it is also free as in freedom, which is more important.
Computers are already ubiquitous and this will only get more true. If they do what governments and corporations want instead of what their users want, then they will become a massive tool for oppression, an oppression more fine-grained than anything Hitler or Stalin dreamed of.
Treacherous computing is an evil, and all good people should have nothing to do with it.
I've seen giant black boxes show up over movies with third party DVD software before, yes.
Yes it works fine in VLC.
Imagine a world where a little eye stares balefully at you from above your TV. If it sees what it thinks is a recording device, say a phone or a video camera pointed at the TV, it turns the screen off until you lower your device.
Kinect the dots. Say goodbye to your living rooms sovereignty.
Kinect the dots. Say goodbye to your living rooms sovereignty.
I see what you did there!
I chuckled, then I realized it was probably not too far off, as MS already is collaborating with NYC and using object recognition on its network of 6000 street cams.
I chuckled, then I realized it was probably not too far off, as MS already is collaborating with NYC and using object recognition on its network of 6000 street cams.
Actually, that technology (camera detectors) are used today in cinemas, especially during premieres and early screenings.
There are plenty of activities that you are not allowed to perform inside your house. In short, anything that's not legal.
I wonder if this "feature" is smart enough to only blank out the player if a licensed movie is being shown (i.e. would it allow the screenshot if you were playing your own home video DVD? Or a ripped copy of a movie with the DRM removed?
I wonder if this "feature" is smart enough to only blank out the player if a licensed movie is being shown (i.e. would it allow the screenshot if you were playing your own home video DVD? Or a ripped copy of a movie with the DRM removed?
A couple of days ago I saw some posters criticizing Stallman and calling him "crazy". I hope those same posters see your writing, because I'm pretty sure problems like these are exactly what Stallman has been predicting (and fighting) for quite some time now.
Cars and mopeds have speed limiters. When I was a kid there was a little industry around removing the 30 km/h governer on mopeds.
They are there to keep people from maiming and death due to exceeding the design envelop. Despite the rhetoric of media interests, bootleg clips of Saturday Nigh Live or The Little Mermaid are not a threat to anyone's health.
> Neither would I. It wouldn't be true ownership. Yet that's exactly what's happening here. The OP bought a Mac, but he can't perform certain activities, because the company that built it disapproves, and they control his machine.
You buy the machine, yes, but iirc, you enter a license agreement for the OS; as in, you do not buy the OS, but you buy a license to use it. There's a technical difference there.
Second, as the owner of the machine, you are allowed to install a non-Mac OS on there that does allow you to take screenshots of movies, or install non-Mac-supplied video software that does not have this protection installed.
You buy the machine, yes, but iirc, you enter a license agreement for the OS; as in, you do not buy the OS, but you buy a license to use it. There's a technical difference there.
Second, as the owner of the machine, you are allowed to install a non-Mac OS on there that does allow you to take screenshots of movies, or install non-Mac-supplied video software that does not have this protection installed.
You can use a variety of other software products on Mac OS to accomplish this. A better analogy would be that the architect leaves you a free table that doesn't suit your needs, so you complain about the way it was built.
Sounds like a homeowners association to me.
Extremely annoying and similar: if a Mac is playing back purchased content in iTunes, any anybody has a Remote Desktop connection to that Mac open, it will show that same checkerboard "fuck you, consumer peon, your corporate overlords prohibit you from viewing this content" view.
This happened to me when we had people over for dinner, somebody wanted to show some video, we bought it from iTunes (in the dining room while eating), and it wouldn't play back.
Of course, at that point we gave up so as not to let DRM ruin dinner. Later, I discovered that it was because somewhere in the house there was a notebook remoting to the TV mac (normal, since that is how we mainly control it).
I don't think this has any underlying technical rationale (hardware acceleration, etc); I'm sure it is just a relic of Apple's deals with the 'content providers'.
This happened to me when we had people over for dinner, somebody wanted to show some video, we bought it from iTunes (in the dining room while eating), and it wouldn't play back.
Of course, at that point we gave up so as not to let DRM ruin dinner. Later, I discovered that it was because somewhere in the house there was a notebook remoting to the TV mac (normal, since that is how we mainly control it).
I don't think this has any underlying technical rationale (hardware acceleration, etc); I'm sure it is just a relic of Apple's deals with the 'content providers'.
Not really news... this has been the case since the first Mac shipped with a DVD player. Wait until he tries to attach gdb while a Fairplay-encoded file is being played.
What does happen if you try to attach gdb? You can't, or the application just quits, or do you get some error message? I'm somewhat curious now.
I think this is the story that the parent was referencing. Here's the story from 2005 and a kernel module loadable at runtime that gets around the problem.
https://blogs.oracle.com/ahl/entry/mac_os_x_and_the
http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/code/macosx/Leopard_PT_DENY_AT...
https://blogs.oracle.com/ahl/entry/mac_os_x_and_the
http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/code/macosx/Leopard_PT_DENY_AT...
It's probably just PT_DENY_ATTACH that causes the debugger to quit.
It used to actually give you an error dialog box - http://imgb.mp/jaY.jpg
It's not due to hardware acceleration, I've never been unable to take a screenshot of anything else in OS X, I think it's due to how Quartz does its compositing (everything is a 3D texture, there are no 2D-style overlays).
It's not due to hardware acceleration, I've never been unable to take a screenshot of anything else in OS X, I think it's due to how Quartz does its compositing (everything is a 3D texture, there are no 2D-style overlays).
Used to get round it with a terminal command, until Lion IIRC.
Same thing happens on Windows if hardware acceleration is enabled. The video is decoded and drawn by the video card.
But in that case (iirc), the video is displayed as a black square. There's no window borders here either.
Well if the video is hardware blended there could be anything in the framebuffer, so it could be black or checkered, I see no incompatibility.
The lack of borders is definitely harder to explain that way though. Definitely looks like some form of deliberate "limitation".
The lack of borders is definitely harder to explain that way though. Definitely looks like some form of deliberate "limitation".
Came here to post this. I rememver having to disable hardware accelaration in windows to take screenshots of videos.
It was actually pretty weird the way the picture apeared in paint. It was like having a "frame"in the editor. Everything was fine until you closed the media player.
It was actually pretty weird the way the picture apeared in paint. It was like having a "frame"in the editor. Everything was fine until you closed the media player.
Old hardware accelearation method.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd39...
Since Vista it's disabled by default and incompatible with DWM.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd39...
Since Vista it's disabled by default and incompatible with DWM.
it's not because of hardware acceleration at all. It's actively preventing the window to be captured (I believe iTunes does some similar). It uses a private API and an example is here:
https://github.com/heardrwt/RHAdditions/blob/master/RHAdditi...
https://github.com/heardrwt/RHAdditions/blob/master/RHAdditi...
I think if you use VLC you can circumvent this despicable attack upon our freedoms.
Of course, it only applies to the inbuilt DVD Player application.
Obviously Apple would have known this.
I wonder if part of the reason they agreed to it is that they knew ultimately it was, in reality, basically no restriction at all.
I wonder if part of the reason they agreed to it is that they knew ultimately it was, in reality, basically no restriction at all.
I have trouble seeing it as that complex of a calculus
They wanted to make a DVD player. DVDCCA (or someone) required them to block screen grabs during playback as a condition of giving them a proper license for CSS (or something) for their DVD player. They blocked screen grabs during playback.
I doubt "is this really going to achieve anything" ever entered anyone's mind. It would just complicate the licensing negotiation for something Apple doesn't really give a crap about (some random third party app)
They wanted to make a DVD player. DVDCCA (or someone) required them to block screen grabs during playback as a condition of giving them a proper license for CSS (or something) for their DVD player. They blocked screen grabs during playback.
I doubt "is this really going to achieve anything" ever entered anyone's mind. It would just complicate the licensing negotiation for something Apple doesn't really give a crap about (some random third party app)
Thinking as a software developer, if a third party asked me to do something I thought wasn't a good idea for the end user, part of how heavily I'd push back on it would be how big a deal it really was to the user.
You may be right though.
You may be right though.
Rather more annoying, the same issue occurs if Screen Sharing is in use when DVD Player.app starts.
Needless to say, this is a total pain when controlling a media machine remotely. VLC's DVD playback is a little ropey in my experience, but at least it works.
It's the pointlessness of this feature that irritates me. If I wanted to copy the contents of a DVD, I'd insert it and use one of the squillions of programs that are freely available to do so. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't take frame-by-frame screenshots.
Needless to say, this is a total pain when controlling a media machine remotely. VLC's DVD playback is a little ropey in my experience, but at least it works.
It's the pointlessness of this feature that irritates me. If I wanted to copy the contents of a DVD, I'd insert it and use one of the squillions of programs that are freely available to do so. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't take frame-by-frame screenshots.
> I'm pretty sure I wouldn't take frame-by-frame screenshots.
Quicktime allows to record a video of your screen. I bet QT leverages the same framework as the screen capture thing.
Quicktime allows to record a video of your screen. I bet QT leverages the same framework as the screen capture thing.
The Windows System Internals book (6th edition IIRC) also mentions that even debug builds of Microsoft Windows Vista and newer have certain restrictions in observing the kernel, and seeing CSS decryption keys was the thing they mentioned in particular.
It's also the case on iOS. You can't screen cap the inbuilt movie player output. Nor can you programatically grab the bitmap layer contents of the movie.
You could back when I had an iPod Touch 2G, unless the limitation only applies to iTunes DRMed videos and not your own videos you put on there.
cjbprime's explanation (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5792745) could apply to that one as well; did the iPod Touch 2G have a dedicated GPU chip yet, or was video rendering done on the CPU?
Everything on iOS is sent as a texture and displayed via the GPU. This has been happening since iOS 1 / First iPhone.
Macha is actually reporting the opposite, it worked fine. So if it wasnt doing it on a particular version of iOS it was probably just that they were doing the extra work to hide it then.
Macha is actually reporting the opposite, it worked fine. So if it wasnt doing it on a particular version of iOS it was probably just that they were doing the extra work to hide it then.
I've never quite understood this. There are so many simpler and more effective ways of copying DVDs than using screen capture software (let alone taking a single screenshot) that it doesn't seem worth the effort to deliberately block.
That's funny...I know this has been around for awhile, but I only first experienced it this weekend when I was trying to excerpt part of a movie scene (for educational purposes)...I didn't go the Handbrake route because I wanted to say that I had avoided breaking the DRM law...while the copyright law may be ambiguous on backups, cracking the DRM is pretty much always a breach of the DMCA
@acuozzo I was running dual monitors and was watching the movie on the tinier MacBook Pro screen. I had no intention of using an image from the film for anything at all. But I always open both screenshots (two screenshots are saved to your desktop when you are on two monitors; again, with the shortcut "CMD+Shift+3") to be sure I delete the one I don't want (i.e. the GUI of the monitor I don't care about), in this case, I just noticed this empty region (where the DVD Player app was running) in Preview right before deleting the image.
@mosteveryoneElse yes, it must be mostly related to DMCA BS. And Apple is just being overprotective here. Since the DVD Player App is native to the Mac OS, surely it is mpy difficult to hide 'designated app[s']' windows when a user takes a screenshot.
@mosteveryoneElse yes, it must be mostly related to DMCA BS. And Apple is just being overprotective here. Since the DVD Player App is native to the Mac OS, surely it is mpy difficult to hide 'designated app[s']' windows when a user takes a screenshot.
It would be plausible if this was actually that the screenshot code could not get at the hardware-decoded pixels that are composited by hardware.
This used to happen on Windows laptop screenshots a lot - often chroma-keyed - and it was how the video on the generation of phones I worked on worked.
This used to happen on Windows laptop screenshots a lot - often chroma-keyed - and it was how the video on the generation of phones I worked on worked.
I couldn't do this on Windows a while back because hardware acceleration was on.
That person tried, and failed, to take a screen shot.
If he now installs VLC and takes a screen shot is he breaking DMCA anti-circumvention laws?
If he now installs VLC and takes a screen shot is he breaking DMCA anti-circumvention laws?
It doesn't matter what type of DVD is playing. It could be one you made yourself and this limitation would still be in place.
This has been the case for like a decade.
So much for fair use.
I think there are more than 3 video player which could play DVD on Mac. So why we use this BAD application? BTW, the new retina macbook shipped without DVD driver, there is not that much which we need to worry about.
This also happens in iTunes. Is it really that big of a problem? Why would you need to screenshot something you're watching? The OP doesn't say why he wanted to take the screenshot.
Also, does anyone know the reason Mac OS does this?
Also, does anyone know the reason Mac OS does this?
> Is it really that big of a problem? Why would you need to screenshot something you're watching? The OP doesn't say why he wanted to take the screenshot.
Wait... are you kidding?
Among other things:
Wait... are you kidding?
Among other things:
1 Fair use: Hey, buddy! Check out this cool still.
2 Fair use: Wow, that's a cool shot! I'd love to make it my background.
3 Fair use: Gee, that sucks! Director Martin M. McStupid made a bunch of CGI changes to his classic award-winning 70s film. I'd like to share some of the most offensive changes with my buddies on the Example.net Forum.
4 Fair use: Totally awesome! The DVD9 release of this film was encoded with a high bitrate. Let's take some stills from fast-moving shots so that we can compare it against the DVD5 release from the 90s.
5 Fair use: This movie no longer has its original theatrical color-timing. I'd like to take a sample from each shot so that I can come up with curves to do a shot-by-shot color-correction.This has been true for years — since Mac OS X 10.1. I believe third-party tools like Snapz Pro (and perhaps even the command line screen capture tool) get around this limitation.
DVD player also can't be "seen" over airplay.
I'm not sure why, but I always find it irrationally annoying when I see someone using their desktop as a filesystem.
It has been this way for years.
VLC is ok of course :)
VLC is ok of course :)
[deleted]
also happens when you try to view iTunes movies or shows while controlling your Mac with a remote desktop connection.
super annoying.
super annoying.
[deleted]
People still use DVDs?
[deleted]
OT: Wow, that's a messy desktop. Makes me feel a little better about my own desktop.
Hurray for the DMCA!
Now is the time for armed revolution, our human rights are being violated. :b
Then the screenshot tool runs and dumps the framebuffer, and finds no image where your DVD playback is happening, because there isn't anything in the framebuffer for that window.