Lessons Learned Working from Coffee Shops(blog.sqwiggle.com)
blog.sqwiggle.com
Lessons Learned Working from Coffee Shops
http://blog.sqwiggle.com/post/47026109259/8-lessons-learned-from-2-years-working-from-coffee
10 comments
Does anyone else find it painful working at coffee shops? Non-ergonomic chairs, weird table heights, poor posture inherent to using laptops (no external monitor). I'd much rather work from home or an office.
I find the table to be at the wrong height for typing. Many of today's laptops have very large (as in, sticking out front from the keyboard) palm rests -- so large, they end up pressing into my wrists which are bent because the table is higher than optimal typing height.
A partial workaround for this can be to prop the back of the laptop up with a book. Being careful not to block any critical ventilation slots with the book.
I also find the noise can be distracting, unless its a really busy cafe, where all the conversations can blend into a sort of "white noise". Even then, that noise tires me out after an hour or two.
A partial workaround for this can be to prop the back of the laptop up with a book. Being careful not to block any critical ventilation slots with the book.
I also find the noise can be distracting, unless its a really busy cafe, where all the conversations can blend into a sort of "white noise". Even then, that noise tires me out after an hour or two.
I too find this to be a problem. So let's add this piece of advice to the author's list: watch out for the least unergonomic chair/table combinations, and memorize the good ones. I know of some decent ones that I keep returning to.
I find it's worth the poor ergonomics because it makes life interesting during work. I do it 1-3 hours per day to mix things up socially--maybe meet a girl or run into someone I know or (like last weekend) run into a celebrity. Something different happens every time.
Agreed. Doing that on a regular basis for a few years cant really be good for your posture.
Besides, i find the coffee shops in the city are usually very cramped, lots of noise and young parents/babies, mediocre wifi. I enjoy working from a coworking space and i also enjoy a proper working enviroment with a beefy workstation, 2 external displays, people around that are developers vs young hipster moms, stable fast internet etc. I go to the coffee shop to take a break and well, grab a coffee.
Besides, i find the coffee shops in the city are usually very cramped, lots of noise and young parents/babies, mediocre wifi. I enjoy working from a coworking space and i also enjoy a proper working enviroment with a beefy workstation, 2 external displays, people around that are developers vs young hipster moms, stable fast internet etc. I go to the coffee shop to take a break and well, grab a coffee.
The hubbub of big city coffeehouses is indeed not conducive to hacking. If you have the luxury of being able to move around, it's worth checking out coffeehouses in small towns. My current favorite in Northern California is the Curly Wolf in Nevada City. Exquisite interior decoration, great people, quiet atmosphere, open til midnight Sun through Thu, til 2am Friday and Saturday. And if you're willing to travel farther, you can even still find hacker's paradise, like the Shot in the Dark in Tucson, AZ: open 24/7. Trust me, it's quiet in there at 3am.
I live in europe (germany to be exact) and the problem is that coffee shops outside of the city often dont have Wifi, or if they do it isnt free. In the city its usually different, but they are cramped full most of the time and close at 6pm.
Also driving around to find a good spot creates too much overhead for me, i will continue to go to coffee shops for drinking a coffee i guess but YMMV of course.
I just tether all the time to get around this. Unless it's a place I regularly go to (home, office, friend's place), I don't even bother messing with wifi. I can have internet on my laptop up and running in seconds by tethering. Other people are awed when they see that I instantly have internet, without having to wrestle with annoying login pages and wifi passwords.
only got 300MB of data on my quite expensive plan, so tethering is more like an emergency option :/
Ah, that sucks. I've got a grandfathered unlimited 4G data plan on Verizon, on which I've used 15-20 GB of data in a month without any problems.
I'm not a coffee drinker and really don't like the smell of burnt coffee. My solution? Local libraries. Mine recently started allowing drinks (with a sealed lid like a bottle) and simple snacks and some even have vending machines now. It's often me, the librarians, and a few retirees until school lets out. I sometimes work from a nearby sports bar with good wifi, but the 19th hole bro crowd gets pretty obnoxious.
Burnt coffee isn't nice, but the smell of fresh coffee is amazing (for me) - it beats fresh bread, the smell of brewery's and the smell of warm oil from a classic car engine bay. The only thing that comes close I think, is the smell of the oil (which dries like a varnish) which I did my floors with. www.naturalhouse.co.nz/shop/java-classic-resin-oil/
Try getting a tea instead. That's what I do. All the cafes I've been to have tea--yes, some have a better selection than others.
Black and green tea are caffeinated; herbal ones are not. You can have it hot or iced. With or without sweetener, with or without milk. And it's good for you (unsweetened).
Black and green tea are caffeinated; herbal ones are not. You can have it hot or iced. With or without sweetener, with or without milk. And it's good for you (unsweetened).
I find his point about "overstaying your welcome" to be of significance. What constitutes such an intrusion? Is there some sort of universal time limit? Is it commensurate with the amount of money one spends?
I've always operated by the tenet that, if they take my money, I am justified in staying for as for long as is necessary. This seems to be the generally accepted precedent, as I've seen an immeasurable number of people purchase a single item and spend an entire day working. This is especially true of local, boutique coffee shops, at which the patrons seem to be less transient than those of, say, a Starbucks. Personally, I generally purchase a single espresso for $1.50, add milk to attempt to simulate the taste of an actual cappuccino (at one third of the cost), and stay for between three and six hours. This seems to be standard operating procedure for many people. Are extended stays stigmatized elsewhere?
I've always operated by the tenet that, if they take my money, I am justified in staying for as for long as is necessary. This seems to be the generally accepted precedent, as I've seen an immeasurable number of people purchase a single item and spend an entire day working. This is especially true of local, boutique coffee shops, at which the patrons seem to be less transient than those of, say, a Starbucks. Personally, I generally purchase a single espresso for $1.50, add milk to attempt to simulate the taste of an actual cappuccino (at one third of the cost), and stay for between three and six hours. This seems to be standard operating procedure for many people. Are extended stays stigmatized elsewhere?
First: tenet not tenant; accepted not excepted.
$1.50 espresso for 3-6 hours feels a little like you are taking advantage of the coffee shop. There is always going to be some variation, but I would prefer to be a customer that helps a business--that provides a service that I like--stay profitable rather than one that helps put them out of business.
If/when times are hard it is good that you can do this, but otherwise if you can afford to support a business that is supporting you then order the cappuccino!
$1.50 espresso for 3-6 hours feels a little like you are taking advantage of the coffee shop. There is always going to be some variation, but I would prefer to be a customer that helps a business--that provides a service that I like--stay profitable rather than one that helps put them out of business.
If/when times are hard it is good that you can do this, but otherwise if you can afford to support a business that is supporting you then order the cappuccino!
Agreed. Personally, whenever I study or do work in a coffee shop I try to regularly make purchases.
I usually end up averaging between $1 and $2 per hour which I think is completely reasonable for the space, drinks, snacks, and internet access. I'll ramp it up a bit if they get busy and if they stay busy for very long (30 min. or longer) I will usually leave.
I usually end up averaging between $1 and $2 per hour which I think is completely reasonable for the space, drinks, snacks, and internet access. I'll ramp it up a bit if they get busy and if they stay busy for very long (30 min. or longer) I will usually leave.
Basically the rule is "don't be a dick". Hard to quantify. I've seen coffee shops around college campuses close, because students would come in as a study group, buy $3 worth of coffee, then hog the best seats for 4 hours. Customers come in, no place to sit, turn around and leave. This happens over and over. During the busy evening or morning hours. Yeah after a while the barista can try to politely ask you to move or leave, but if they reach that point, it is already kind of unpleasant both for you and for them.
If the place is almost empty, you'd actually be doing them a favor probably by sitting in there to make the place look popular and happening (those that don't know the place might skip it as well if they see it completely empty).
If the place is almost empty, you'd actually be doing them a favor probably by sitting in there to make the place look popular and happening (those that don't know the place might skip it as well if they see it completely empty).
A rule of thumb: If the place is busy enough that your chair would otherwise be occupied by someone spending more money than you, you should consider moving on. There's no harm in filling empty space, but no coffee shop is going to survive on tables full of $1.50 do-it-yourself cappuccino drinkers. (Seriously?)
I think that's fair. Honestly, I tend not to spend time in shops that are at capacity, as it tends to be quite loud and difficult to maneuver. Certainly, the crowdedness will change the calculus. But, in cases where the shop is not close to capacity, my seat has effectively no marginal value, so I'm not costing the shop anything...
Personally, if I am not buying something at least every 90 minutes-2 hours, I feel like I am a freeloader and I get out. I hate it when I go to a coffee shop and every seat is taken by someone on a laptop with no evidence they have spent money there recently.
One of my local coffee shops gives 2 hours free wifi with purchase. If I plan on sticking around all day then I consider it that I am paying for wifi in 2 hour increments and getting a free coffee or food item out of it.
One of my local coffee shops gives 2 hours free wifi with purchase. If I plan on sticking around all day then I consider it that I am paying for wifi in 2 hour increments and getting a free coffee or food item out of it.
I call this "paying my rent". I'm HAPPY to pay for services. I want my local businesses to prosper.
There's an opportunity here. Starbucks popularized the notion "third place"; even if they didn't quite execute, many others did.
If a cafe served real food (not just treats), even prepackaged, and sported a printer (charging per copy), I'd never leave.
In my neighborhood, there's a postbox + copy center joint with unused square footage right next to an espresso cafe filled with laptop campers and scarce seating. Both have plenty of customers. But a combo would rule.
There's an opportunity here. Starbucks popularized the notion "third place"; even if they didn't quite execute, many others did.
If a cafe served real food (not just treats), even prepackaged, and sported a printer (charging per copy), I'd never leave.
In my neighborhood, there's a postbox + copy center joint with unused square footage right next to an espresso cafe filled with laptop campers and scarce seating. Both have plenty of customers. But a combo would rule.
If a cafe served real food (not just treats), even prepackaged, and sported a printer (charging per copy), I'd never leave.
There's a cafe near me that has good food, coffee, and beer and wine. They also have taken over the space next door and put together a separate annex with just lots of cozy chairs, as well two reservable conference rooms. The conference rooms are subject to a food & beverage minimum (If you commit to spending something like $100 on food or drink, then you can have the room for two hours).
They kind of blew it because their internet router MITMs your connections to insert javascript to display ads, and they block VPN connections to work around it, but I just tether my cell phone and get a better connection anyway.
There's a cafe near me that has good food, coffee, and beer and wine. They also have taken over the space next door and put together a separate annex with just lots of cozy chairs, as well two reservable conference rooms. The conference rooms are subject to a food & beverage minimum (If you commit to spending something like $100 on food or drink, then you can have the room for two hours).
They kind of blew it because their internet router MITMs your connections to insert javascript to display ads, and they block VPN connections to work around it, but I just tether my cell phone and get a better connection anyway.
I'm sorry to break this to you, but most people would consider you an asshole.
Are extended stays stigmatized elsewhere?
Yes. Try ordering a side of bacon then covering it with your own couple slices of bread to simulate the taste of an actual sandwich (at one third of the cost) and see if you'll be allowed to hang around for three to six hours at any restaurant.
Yes. Try ordering a side of bacon then covering it with your own couple slices of bread to simulate the taste of an actual sandwich (at one third of the cost) and see if you'll be allowed to hang around for three to six hours at any restaurant.
If the restaurant provides free bread (and a large portion of them do), I think it's entirely permissible to combine them. The coffee shops make the their condiments available so that people can use them. Why does the milk exist if not to be put in one's coffee?
> If the restaurant provides free bread (and a large portion of them do), I think it's entirely permissible to combine them.
They provide bread under what most people understand to be the social contract: that you will order more than a side of bacon.
Some restaurants -- especially those that serve students -- even require a per-person minimum order to ensure that they're not losing money on cheapskates.
You, sir, are a cheapskate, in that you're willing to break the social contract as to further your own interests, while transferring the cost of your benefit to your host.
They provide bread under what most people understand to be the social contract: that you will order more than a side of bacon.
Some restaurants -- especially those that serve students -- even require a per-person minimum order to ensure that they're not losing money on cheapskates.
You, sir, are a cheapskate, in that you're willing to break the social contract as to further your own interests, while transferring the cost of your benefit to your host.
Perhaps I'm misreading you, but you seem terribly focused on the letter, not the spirit, of not quite laws but presumed social rules of behavior.
That someone can scheme up a rationalization for some behavior does not make it right, desirable, or honorable.
It's OK to put milk into a coffee you buy. It's not OK to buy one coffee and then drink several glasses of milk.
The same goes for seating. Seats and tables are there so people have a place to sit while they consume their purchases. There may be no set rule on how long it should take to you drink a coffee, but this is where people have to be honest with themselves and consider if they are really still finishing up that coffee or if they are now, so to speak, just drinking free milk.
That someone can scheme up a rationalization for some behavior does not make it right, desirable, or honorable.
It's OK to put milk into a coffee you buy. It's not OK to buy one coffee and then drink several glasses of milk.
The same goes for seating. Seats and tables are there so people have a place to sit while they consume their purchases. There may be no set rule on how long it should take to you drink a coffee, but this is where people have to be honest with themselves and consider if they are really still finishing up that coffee or if they are now, so to speak, just drinking free milk.
That works right up until somebody says, "God, that cheap jerk makes me crazy," and puts up a sign. Or moves the cream behind the counter, slowing down everybody who needs it. Or switches from the pitcher to the single-serving thingies, increasing cost and waste, so they can more easily refuse to give you one. Or just says, "Man, I've had enough of those cheap-ass internet guys. Let's turn off the wireless and remove the power outlets."
If you want a cappuccino, buy a cappuccino. If you want a sandwich, buy a sandwich. Commerce is a collaboration between buyer and seller. Both sides are responsible for making sure that the value exchange is sustainable.
If you want a cappuccino, buy a cappuccino. If you want a sandwich, buy a sandwich. Commerce is a collaboration between buyer and seller. Both sides are responsible for making sure that the value exchange is sustainable.
> I am justified in staying for as for long as is necessary... I generally purchase a single espresso for $1.50, add milk to attempt to simulate the taste of an actual cappuccino (at one third of the cost), and stay for between three and six hours.
Frankly, I thought this was satire.
Frankly, I thought this was satire.
A simple thought experiment: what if everyone did like me...?
Say there are 20 tables, and it's open for 12 hours a day. Every customer spends $1.50 and hogs a table for 4 hours. Assuming constant full capacity (a very optimistic assumption), each table has 3 customers a day and brings in $4.50. Which means the shop as a whole brings in a maximum of $90 a day.
In other words: if everyone did like you the coffee shop would be bust in no time.
Say there are 20 tables, and it's open for 12 hours a day. Every customer spends $1.50 and hogs a table for 4 hours. Assuming constant full capacity (a very optimistic assumption), each table has 3 customers a day and brings in $4.50. Which means the shop as a whole brings in a maximum of $90 a day.
In other words: if everyone did like you the coffee shop would be bust in no time.
I would agree except that most people come in for coffee and then leave.
You could think of takeaway as a separate business. If sit-in wasn't meant to be profitable, coffee shops would occupy much smaller premises to save on rent.
Are you serious, a $1.50 purchase and you'll stay for more than half the day ? No business would be happy with someone doing that.
The rule of 'give any amount of money however small and stay for as long as I want' is not a good one to live by.
The rule of 'give any amount of money however small and stay for as long as I want' is not a good one to live by.
If we keep going down that road, we'll wind up with folks telling us, "Well, I don't like coffee so I just dropped a nickel in the tip jar at 8AM and stayed until closing. If I didn't know better, I'd say they seemed annoyed; did I do something wrong?"
You must not have read the Yelp review referenced in the first paragraph -- she was upset because they would not give her the wi-fi password, when she was not going to buy anything. She admits to giving them a "puzzled look" when they said the wi-fi was for "paying customers."
Spending $1.50 and staying up to 6 hours is what I would consider over staying your welcome. I would generally buy a coffee (or other item) at $3 every 1.5 hours. That seems more reasonable to me. It might be different if your coffee shop is empty all day but if you're there when it's busy taking up a seat for 6 hours for $1.50 doesn't seem right.
If there are other paying customers, the place is full, and you don't intend on buying anything within the next 30 mins to an hour, leave.
Coffee shops are not charities. How much do you think that $1.50 coffee costs them to make? Let's speculate $0.50. So the shop nets $1.00 and you take a chair for six hours.
But wait- you are using electricity and WiFi. You cost them money. Electricity is cheap and if they have reasonable internet service, so is internet- but now they aren't even making a dollar. Just how much profit do you think a shop can generate at $1 per 6 hours for a chair? If they have twenty chairs, that's maybe $30-40 gross for the day?
But wait- you are using electricity and WiFi. You cost them money. Electricity is cheap and if they have reasonable internet service, so is internet- but now they aren't even making a dollar. Just how much profit do you think a shop can generate at $1 per 6 hours for a chair? If they have twenty chairs, that's maybe $30-40 gross for the day?
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How is this in the top 5 of HN? Most of the points seem pretty obvious.
I find that more people aren't even going into the coffee shop. They just park outside close enough to get a good wifi signal and relax in their car or van for hours on end.
But what's the idea in that? People work out of coffee shops because they need a social place with other human beings around. Almost everyone has an internet at home, so they could always work form home rather than being cooped up in a car waiting for the cops to come around asking.
Some are just stuck because they can't go elsewhere because of traffic jams and they don't want to go inside because it's too crowded or too many people waiting in line for coffee (or to go to bathroom).
Afraid I've never heard of anyone being accosted by officers about hanging out in the parking lot inside their car w/ their computer. Who is to say who's wifi they are using anyway (especially in a tight area where you have multiple choices for wifi)?
Afraid I've never heard of anyone being accosted by officers about hanging out in the parking lot inside their car w/ their computer. Who is to say who's wifi they are using anyway (especially in a tight area where you have multiple choices for wifi)?
This has to be one of the most useless articles i've ever read...
You must be new to the internet then ;)
truth
Also, make sure your Internet connection is secure. Set up a VPN (or buy from a provider) to be 100% safe.
Your advice is... buy something? Bring the stuff you need? This is the blog equivalent of Fox & Friends
The "Advertise On Your Laptop" advice is a terrific idea.
I really like the back of iWaffles' laptop, and the suggestion to put your Twitter handle on there too (or website etc).
As to your comment on the validity of this article:
When I read an article or a book, I focus on getting something of value out of it. If I can gain at least one good idea that I can use for the rest of my life, then it was a worthwhile. Focus on the positive. It will change your life.
I really like the back of iWaffles' laptop, and the suggestion to put your Twitter handle on there too (or website etc).
As to your comment on the validity of this article:
When I read an article or a book, I focus on getting something of value out of it. If I can gain at least one good idea that I can use for the rest of my life, then it was a worthwhile. Focus on the positive. It will change your life.
I know what you're getting at - but it's a good reminder nevertheless. I'm talking specifically about the point of having offline options, like graphic design, emails, offline coding.
I wasn't going to include the "Buy something" point, but did you read that Yelp review? Jeez, apparently people need reminding...