Twitter’s Speech Problem: Hashtags and Hate(newyorker.com)
newyorker.com
Twitter’s Speech Problem: Hashtags and Hate
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/01/french-anti-semites-and-the-american-cloud.html
9 comments
More and more, people think that nannying is the essential function of government.
I am not for hate, but once you go down the road of censorship and get called out for specific types of censoring you are doing, troubled times are ahead; more groups will jump on the bandwagon and cry foul on more and more tweets.
The corollary being that I have just shut down one of my websites because I'm sick of the racist and other abuse that myself and my brother were receiving (the justification being "you take offence, not give it"). There's only so many times you can use the block button.
I'm sorry. Racism should not be ignored. But I'm not sure how censorship initiated by the provider solves it. It is truly a tragedy that you had to shut your site down, and I think those that caused you to have to do that should be punished. However, when a provider starts censoring specific types of speech, there is much left ahead that they will be asked to censor, which is all I was trying to say.
I hope that you and your brother find a safe place to share your information without being harassed.
I hope that you and your brother find a safe place to share your information without being harassed.
For the most part, I agree.
But "free speech" has real, human, costs; just as censorship does.
But "free speech" has real, human, costs; just as censorship does.
The obvious solution is for nations that want censorship is for them to censor through filtering at their ISP level. By offloading the cost to private organizations it allows the cost to be hidden, and when people have to pay to censor their neighbor maybe they won't do so.
Though, on the other hand having this brought up in the news whenever they want to censor a new company keeps the arguments about censorship current and lets people see the backwardness of countries not embracing free speech.
The argument against offensive or incorrect speech is not less speech, but more speech. Win in the argument with words not violence.
Though, on the other hand having this brought up in the news whenever they want to censor a new company keeps the arguments about censorship current and lets people see the backwardness of countries not embracing free speech.
The argument against offensive or incorrect speech is not less speech, but more speech. Win in the argument with words not violence.
I agree, but in practice they'd have to block entire sites due to HTTPS.
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This seems like a significant event.
It's certainly not trivial, but it was very predictable. France has had strong censorship laws for years when it comes to what is deemed to be 'hate speech.'
For example, what they've done to Brigitte Bardot for voicing her opinions publicly.
For example, what they've done to Brigitte Bardot for voicing her opinions publicly.
> what they've done to Brigitte Bardot for voicing her opinions publicly.
Made her pay fines under "incitement to racial hatred"?
Made her pay fines under "incitement to racial hatred"?
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Sounds like France is pretty racist and hateful in general. Can you imagine #AGoodJew or #AGoodNegro trending in the US? That's absurd.
I don't see how censoring the tweets will fix that or change anything. So much for fraternité.
I don't see how censoring the tweets will fix that or change anything. So much for fraternité.
Nobody blame Twitter nor ask it to censor those tweets.
There is a law in France (and in most west europe countries as UK, Germany etc) that prohibit racist/sexist/religious/etc discriminations and hate encouragement.
Unlike USA, most european countries put boundaries to free speech. It do not mean that there is censorship. Nor it mean that it's illegal to think that jews stinks or whatsoever. You can think whatever you want, and tell whatever you want in your private circle, nobody will arrest you for that. But if you use your _public_ free speech to propagate these ideas you will have to face a court.
I know it can seems strange to US people, just like the ability to buy an AR-15 in a WallMart seems strange to us...
But that's our law, and it have been democratically voted.
Now the interesting question in the article is: Do French people that tweet are subjet to French or US laws ? Should Twitter obey to the laws of it's users or only to american laws ?
"All the French are racists", "French should filter web content at ISP level", etc subjects are just bullshit.
There is a law in France (and in most west europe countries as UK, Germany etc) that prohibit racist/sexist/religious/etc discriminations and hate encouragement.
Unlike USA, most european countries put boundaries to free speech. It do not mean that there is censorship. Nor it mean that it's illegal to think that jews stinks or whatsoever. You can think whatever you want, and tell whatever you want in your private circle, nobody will arrest you for that. But if you use your _public_ free speech to propagate these ideas you will have to face a court.
I know it can seems strange to US people, just like the ability to buy an AR-15 in a WallMart seems strange to us...
But that's our law, and it have been democratically voted.
Now the interesting question in the article is: Do French people that tweet are subjet to French or US laws ? Should Twitter obey to the laws of it's users or only to american laws ?
"All the French are racists", "French should filter web content at ISP level", etc subjects are just bullshit.
> Unlike USA, most european countries put boundaries to free speech.
The US also put limits on free speech, FWIW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_excep...
The US also put limits on free speech, FWIW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_excep...
As if being "democratically voted" excuses or diminishes it as not being censorship. Please. Sharia law has been "democratically voted."
Please. You can only buy hunting rifles at Wal-Mart. Hey, maybe they could sue you in France for that defamatory statement?
It seems that it was true not so long ago: http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2012/12/17/wal-m...
And yeah they could sue me if they prove the diffamation i.e. that my statement was false and only stated in the attend to cause damages to WalMart.
And yeah they could sue me if they prove the diffamation i.e. that my statement was false and only stated in the attend to cause damages to WalMart.
Are you serious? I'm flabbergasted that you think this sort of racism unlikely in the U.S. to the point that it is absurd ...
When you say US do you mean "United States of America." Racism is so common in the US that I'm surprised that anyone would not know.
When you say US do you mean "United States of America." Racism is so common in the US that I'm surprised that anyone would not know.
Do you have any examples of racist hashtags trending on Twitter in the US?
You said:
> France is pretty racist and hateful in general ...
That's a separate issue from hashtags. I think that is totally irrelevant. Let's say, just hypothetically, French culture is such that the racism there is expressed through hashtags twitter. Now, let's say in the US, the culture is such that racists prefer to make disgusting racist comments on YouTube AND perform lynchings and enact legislation prevent people of the same race from drinking at the same water coolers. Does that make the French more racist or hateful? I don't really see the point.
Also, let's, for argument's sake, keep the racism discussion to Twitter. Does it really matter if the racism is in tweets or hashtags in the picture?
If you REALLY want to see examples of racism in the United States, I can produce them. But do you REALLY think I am just "hand waving" when I dispute that it's absurd to think there is no at least the same amount of racism in the US?
> France is pretty racist and hateful in general ...
That's a separate issue from hashtags. I think that is totally irrelevant. Let's say, just hypothetically, French culture is such that the racism there is expressed through hashtags twitter. Now, let's say in the US, the culture is such that racists prefer to make disgusting racist comments on YouTube AND perform lynchings and enact legislation prevent people of the same race from drinking at the same water coolers. Does that make the French more racist or hateful? I don't really see the point.
Also, let's, for argument's sake, keep the racism discussion to Twitter. Does it really matter if the racism is in tweets or hashtags in the picture?
If you REALLY want to see examples of racism in the United States, I can produce them. But do you REALLY think I am just "hand waving" when I dispute that it's absurd to think there is no at least the same amount of racism in the US?
> That's a separate issue from hashtags.
Not when they're trending nationally.
Not when they're trending nationally.
See my comment here [1] why this is an pretty weak argument-
[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5125902
[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5125902
Thanks, that's informative. I agree that it weakens my argument
This is not an example of racist hashtags, but I remember hearing about a lot of racist tweets when Obama's speech about the Newtown massacre interrupted Sunday Night Football.
Edit: grammar
Edit: grammar
Well, if you want to get to politics; it is virtually impossible to deny the amount of racist signaling the Republican party uses in their messaging, debates, legislation to disenfranchise voters, and so forth. And this is not support one party or the other; it's just reality.
Not really. The people posting those tweets are mostly trolls waiting for the public opinion to (over)react.
Sorry to shatter your little world view.
But hashtags are not a measure of the level of racism or hate in a country.
But hashtags are not a measure of the level of racism or hate in a country.
That's a straw man.
The point is that they were trending.
The point is that they were trending.
I am not a social media expert, but two points why comparing trending topics in France to the US is very difficult (without any statement on which country is more racist):
1. Twitter is much more mainstream in the US than in France and other European countries. One source I found shows the active users by country [1]. Using those numbers and assuming 320 million population for the US and 65 mil. for France one can see that 7.15% of US americans are active per month while only 3.3% of French are active per month. My interpretation is that the twitter users in France are much less representative than in the US. Also it is much easier for a very small but active community to break into the trending charts. Another hypothesis which I sadly could not find any numbers for is that the average twitter user in the US is posting MUCH more than the average french. Thus it is much more harder for fringe opinions to rise to the top trending.
2. Trending hashtags don't have to mean people have to endorse it. It could be a critical retweet or other kind of dismissal of racism. So just the fact that a racist hashtag is in the trending topic could also be interpreted as that people in france give a much larger response to racists tweets and try to express their dismay and thus circumstantially also push that hash tag. (I don't want to say that this actually happened)
But just these two points alone show why trending hashtags are a very weak indicator.
[1] http://www.mediabistro.com/alltwitter/twitter-countries-acti...
1. Twitter is much more mainstream in the US than in France and other European countries. One source I found shows the active users by country [1]. Using those numbers and assuming 320 million population for the US and 65 mil. for France one can see that 7.15% of US americans are active per month while only 3.3% of French are active per month. My interpretation is that the twitter users in France are much less representative than in the US. Also it is much easier for a very small but active community to break into the trending charts. Another hypothesis which I sadly could not find any numbers for is that the average twitter user in the US is posting MUCH more than the average french. Thus it is much more harder for fringe opinions to rise to the top trending.
2. Trending hashtags don't have to mean people have to endorse it. It could be a critical retweet or other kind of dismissal of racism. So just the fact that a racist hashtag is in the trending topic could also be interpreted as that people in france give a much larger response to racists tweets and try to express their dismay and thus circumstantially also push that hash tag. (I don't want to say that this actually happened)
But just these two points alone show why trending hashtags are a very weak indicator.
[1] http://www.mediabistro.com/alltwitter/twitter-countries-acti...
Its not just France, try all of Europe/Russia.
There's a good reason people left Europe to build new lives in Canada and USA, because they left behind the old world entrenched hatred, corruption and religious intolerance.
US may be responsible for institutionalized modern slavery with their insanity prison system, but at least you don't have mainstream political parties calling for the death of romani and jews like they do in France, Greece, Italy and Hungary.
Even the Netherlands has seen it's fair share of ultra fascist political parties that used soccer jingles to rally hooligans to their cause and beat immigrants in the streets. That these fascist parties would now use Twitter to further organize their members is not surprising but at least on Twitter there's a diaspora of people to refute their bullshit racism and scapegoating. Simply censoring it will not make it go away.
Speaking of Italy Berlusconi used Holocaust Memorial Day a few hours ago to praise the leadership of Mussolini. No I didn't make that up. That's how screwed Europe is right now.
There's a good reason people left Europe to build new lives in Canada and USA, because they left behind the old world entrenched hatred, corruption and religious intolerance.
US may be responsible for institutionalized modern slavery with their insanity prison system, but at least you don't have mainstream political parties calling for the death of romani and jews like they do in France, Greece, Italy and Hungary.
Even the Netherlands has seen it's fair share of ultra fascist political parties that used soccer jingles to rally hooligans to their cause and beat immigrants in the streets. That these fascist parties would now use Twitter to further organize their members is not surprising but at least on Twitter there's a diaspora of people to refute their bullshit racism and scapegoating. Simply censoring it will not make it go away.
Speaking of Italy Berlusconi used Holocaust Memorial Day a few hours ago to praise the leadership of Mussolini. No I didn't make that up. That's how screwed Europe is right now.
> That's how screwed Europe is right now.
Referring to Europe like one entity is like me saying "Look at how corrupt Cuba is, that's how screwed up North America is right now"
Referring to Europe like one entity is like me saying "Look at how corrupt Cuba is, that's how screwed up North America is right now"
You think the US doesn't have racism and religious intolerance at levels of the EU countries also? ... Am I in the Twilight Zone? Has everyone gone mad?
I am slightly disappointed. I was hoping the article would be about what to call 'hashtag' in other languages. What do the Swedes call it? What about the Polish? Then it just turns out to be another relevant article about free speech.
I will say when I saw the headline I thought was going to be about something along those lines.
Let's say some racist group was spewing hatred on Twitter. Now, let's say someone was, rightfully, offended and then went and tattle tailed to Twitter or the legal authorities. What is their benefit from that? Those people still think and believe exactly the same things. You could say at the very least it reduces the spread of certain and so forth, but I don't think it does; just because they can't say it on Twitter doesn't mean it is not said hundreds or thousands of times a day. I don't know why anyone would want the government to be our nanny in this case. If anything, taking action like this just eggs them on.