Ask HN: I'm a 17-year-old with $700. What's the best laptop for me to get?
29 comments
None at all. Save the $700. You don't need to spend it now unless it's literally on fire and burning your hands. Learn to save. You'll be glad you have money piled up when you leave the family nest. It's a tough world.
Have an old desktop? Use it. "Portable" and "development" are contradictory terms anyway. No desktop? Find a cheap/used/refurb one, $200 tops. Web development has one of the smallest demand on CPU power; you'll be just fine with an old desktop, you'll learn how to manage computing resources efficiently, and that will make you better at your trade. You're just 17... you have decades of learning ahead of you. Learn to drive the family car properly before you allow yourself to crave for a race car.
Unless you just want a shiny toy to look cool at Starbucks, and don't care if it's a worthless piece of junk in a year or two. In which case, yeah, Apple.
ObDisclaimer: Been there a very long time ago.
Have an old desktop? Use it. "Portable" and "development" are contradictory terms anyway. No desktop? Find a cheap/used/refurb one, $200 tops. Web development has one of the smallest demand on CPU power; you'll be just fine with an old desktop, you'll learn how to manage computing resources efficiently, and that will make you better at your trade. You're just 17... you have decades of learning ahead of you. Learn to drive the family car properly before you allow yourself to crave for a race car.
Unless you just want a shiny toy to look cool at Starbucks, and don't care if it's a worthless piece of junk in a year or two. In which case, yeah, Apple.
ObDisclaimer: Been there a very long time ago.
I would suggest the following:
4GB of Ram i7 or i5 SSD
Something like this:
x220: http://outlet.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/outlet_us/...
or x230: http://outlet.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/outlet_us/...
Might fit the bill.
The nice thing about the x220 is that it is what a lot of Linux Kernel hackers use so the hardware tends to be well supported. Get an intel wifi card and intel graphics card. I have personally avoided Optimus technology for fear of lack of support, however, others have had luck with it so it might not be too bad.
Do you have any preference for screen real estate?
4GB of Ram i7 or i5 SSD
Something like this:
x220: http://outlet.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/outlet_us/...
or x230: http://outlet.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/outlet_us/...
Might fit the bill.
The nice thing about the x220 is that it is what a lot of Linux Kernel hackers use so the hardware tends to be well supported. Get an intel wifi card and intel graphics card. I have personally avoided Optimus technology for fear of lack of support, however, others have had luck with it so it might not be too bad.
Do you have any preference for screen real estate?
Seconded on Lenovo - I've never had a bad experience with them. A cheaper alternative to the x220/x230 is the X131e; It has a less powerful ULV i3 processor, but I find the performance perfectly adequate for web development once upgraded with an SSD.
Ebay is usually full of lightly-used Thinkpads and you can find some real bargains.
Ebay is usually full of lightly-used Thinkpads and you can find some real bargains.
Scrounge up an extra hundred bucks somehow, somewhere and pick up an 11" MacBook Air at Best Buy this weekend: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-gilbert/macbook-air-sale...
Save up more money and buy a Macbook Pro. The cheapest model will do. You can probably get it from Amazon cheaper even with Tax and Shipping.
If you are getting into Linux, get a Mac since it is essentially a type of Linux. As a full stack mobile/web developer, it is nice to set everything up on your mac pretty much exactly the same way as you would in your Linux production environment. You don't need to worry about some packages you use may behaves a little different in Windows or Linux. You can run virtualization on PC, but why run virtualization when it will just work directly when you open up the OS X terminal.
To be fair. I have not always been a Mac user. I started programming when I was 16. Got my bachelor's degree in Computer Science and started to work as a software developer. I have always used a PC for 10+ years. However, it just became a pain to match your PC to your production environment which is pretty much a Linux box these days. A lot of times, in order to build something scalable, I end up trying new technologies and compiling the package from source. It is nice to set up your dev environment on a 'linux-ish' box (aka OS X) while your target production is also Linux. And if you want to do iOS dev, then you will definitely need a Mac as well to make your life much easier.
If you are getting into Linux, get a Mac since it is essentially a type of Linux. As a full stack mobile/web developer, it is nice to set everything up on your mac pretty much exactly the same way as you would in your Linux production environment. You don't need to worry about some packages you use may behaves a little different in Windows or Linux. You can run virtualization on PC, but why run virtualization when it will just work directly when you open up the OS X terminal.
To be fair. I have not always been a Mac user. I started programming when I was 16. Got my bachelor's degree in Computer Science and started to work as a software developer. I have always used a PC for 10+ years. However, it just became a pain to match your PC to your production environment which is pretty much a Linux box these days. A lot of times, in order to build something scalable, I end up trying new technologies and compiling the package from source. It is nice to set up your dev environment on a 'linux-ish' box (aka OS X) while your target production is also Linux. And if you want to do iOS dev, then you will definitely need a Mac as well to make your life much easier.
OS X is based on Darwin, not Linux. It's a UNIX environment, not Linux.
I would disrecommend Mac, because he'd be buying an overpriced piece of junk.
I would disrecommend Mac, because he'd be buying an overpriced piece of junk.
Lol. I was debating whether to spell it out because I got a feeling someone is going to pop up saying what you just said. Well. more precisely it was derived from BSD.
And that is some strong feeling you just expressed there. Why so much hate? :) Overpriced or not is based on what it can do for you and how much your time is worth. Of course, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions.
By the way kido, don't just take our advices here. On the Internet, you have no ideas who is behind the typed message. See if you can find someone in your life who is successful in the field and you admire. Go visit their work environment and see what they use. That may be a more beneficial start for you.
And that is some strong feeling you just expressed there. Why so much hate? :) Overpriced or not is based on what it can do for you and how much your time is worth. Of course, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions.
By the way kido, don't just take our advices here. On the Internet, you have no ideas who is behind the typed message. See if you can find someone in your life who is successful in the field and you admire. Go visit their work environment and see what they use. That may be a more beneficial start for you.
If I were you I wouldn't spend all that money on a shiny new laptop. And unlike others are suggesting, I would definitely not spend even more on a shiny new Macbook, because it's not a one-time cost. You will pay more in repairs later on.
Especially since you're interested in Linux, I'd go to ebay and buy an old Thinkpad. You can get some good cheap ones.
If you do want a Macbook, you can also get some cheap ones on ebay. I'm typing this on a 2008 Macbook that I bought last year for $500. It's serving me perfectly well as a web developer. I have also done some iOS development on it.
Before you settle on a Linux distro, try a few in VMs and see which one you like best. Then you can install that to the hard disk.
One thing to make sure is you don't buy a computer with a low max RAM. Even if it's a relatively old model, as long as you can have 4-6GB RAM, it'll work great.
If you make more money freelancing, you can sell the old computer and buy a better one. It will also teach you something about buying and selling computers, if you're interested in that kind of thing.
Especially since you're interested in Linux, I'd go to ebay and buy an old Thinkpad. You can get some good cheap ones.
If you do want a Macbook, you can also get some cheap ones on ebay. I'm typing this on a 2008 Macbook that I bought last year for $500. It's serving me perfectly well as a web developer. I have also done some iOS development on it.
Before you settle on a Linux distro, try a few in VMs and see which one you like best. Then you can install that to the hard disk.
One thing to make sure is you don't buy a computer with a low max RAM. Even if it's a relatively old model, as long as you can have 4-6GB RAM, it'll work great.
If you make more money freelancing, you can sell the old computer and buy a better one. It will also teach you something about buying and selling computers, if you're interested in that kind of thing.
My advice is to look at the parts of a laptop you can't change. These are the things that you will regret the most when you use it.
For me, a crisp keyboard is essential, and it's also one of the pieces where you don't have much choice once you've bought it. Same with the pointing device if you're using it in strictly laptop mode. My job laptop and my personal laptop are two different brands, and it's such a relief to go back to my personal laptop at the end of the day, mainly due to the keyboard and mouse.
Screen resolution is also very important. Yeah, you can replace your screens with something better down the line, but it can be costly and it's probably better to get what you need up front.
You can generally get a larger battery (or a second battery); unless you do a lot of walking, portability may conflict with usability of the computer (tiny screen, cramped keyboard).
For me, a crisp keyboard is essential, and it's also one of the pieces where you don't have much choice once you've bought it. Same with the pointing device if you're using it in strictly laptop mode. My job laptop and my personal laptop are two different brands, and it's such a relief to go back to my personal laptop at the end of the day, mainly due to the keyboard and mouse.
Screen resolution is also very important. Yeah, you can replace your screens with something better down the line, but it can be costly and it's probably better to get what you need up front.
You can generally get a larger battery (or a second battery); unless you do a lot of walking, portability may conflict with usability of the computer (tiny screen, cramped keyboard).
Stay away from Samsung if you're planning on using Linux [1].
There's a new BIOS "feature" called "Secure boot" which will affect Linux on Windows 8 machines. There's been a lot of discussion of this here and among distros. Everyone says that everything will work out, but it's still a new thing, so the road may be a little bumpy. You may want to stick with Windows 7 for now.
You can often improve your experience cheaply by upgrading your RAM. You can put 8 GB in most laptops for a cost of $100 or less. This is particularly important if you use large numbers of browser tabs, or virtual machine software like Virtualbox (an easy way to get started with Linux).
As for getting a Mac -- Don't.
[1] http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI4O...
There's a new BIOS "feature" called "Secure boot" which will affect Linux on Windows 8 machines. There's been a lot of discussion of this here and among distros. Everyone says that everything will work out, but it's still a new thing, so the road may be a little bumpy. You may want to stick with Windows 7 for now.
You can often improve your experience cheaply by upgrading your RAM. You can put 8 GB in most laptops for a cost of $100 or less. This is particularly important if you use large numbers of browser tabs, or virtual machine software like Virtualbox (an easy way to get started with Linux).
As for getting a Mac -- Don't.
[1] http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI4O...
I bought the cheapest, simplest little laptop I could find at Frys just because I needed an airgapped Windows solution a couple of years back. It was an eMachines (Acer) D620, and I think it cost me about $300. This was almost 4 years ago. It isn't sleek or shiny, but it does run Linux just fine.
I would hope you could find at least that much of a machine for no more than that much money today, and that's new. If you're talking about used, it might be far, far less.
It won't win any races or beauty contests, but it's not supposed to.
What is "web development" to you? To me, that calls for a Linux box running Apache and the basics of being able to edit, build, run, and test code: my text editor, a compiler, the usual libraries, and my build tool. Oh, that and a recent browser, so X11. That's about it.
Your mileage will vary.
I would hope you could find at least that much of a machine for no more than that much money today, and that's new. If you're talking about used, it might be far, far less.
It won't win any races or beauty contests, but it's not supposed to.
What is "web development" to you? To me, that calls for a Linux box running Apache and the basics of being able to edit, build, run, and test code: my text editor, a compiler, the usual libraries, and my build tool. Oh, that and a recent browser, so X11. That's about it.
Your mileage will vary.
Lenovo T420. Buy it from their outlet section. If you're quick, you can get one for under $700. Great computers, very sturdy, and easy to repair yourself. Highly recommended. (I own one. This is being typed from it).
Linux? Get one with an Intel or nVidia graphics chipset (if you want graphics speed, go nVidia) avoid ati/radeon - its support on Linux has been touchy, the drivers have a long history of installation issues.
if you want speed again i5 is a good minimum, don't skimp on the processor, you can't pop in a better one if its too slow... you can always improve the drive/ram later - make those less a factor.
drive if possible SSD, but then don't make it a major priority as that can be swapped out on most wintel machines.
Just about any distro should work fine, the only main sticking point for Linux users are the graphics chipsets.
if you want speed again i5 is a good minimum, don't skimp on the processor, you can't pop in a better one if its too slow... you can always improve the drive/ram later - make those less a factor.
drive if possible SSD, but then don't make it a major priority as that can be swapped out on most wintel machines.
Just about any distro should work fine, the only main sticking point for Linux users are the graphics chipsets.
I've seen some Thinkpad X230's for sale this week for around 750-800. This is a little over your price range but, if you can save a bit extra, this is a great machine. Has an IPS screen which definitely has a great effect when you're staring at editors all day, is easily upgradable. It's going to be as bulletproof as a MacBook but at a cheaper price. The trackpad isn't as good as a MacBook but you do get the trackpoint, which I personally prefer since it doesn't take your fingers away from the keyboard.
Lenovo is generally amiable towards running Linux. It seems to run well on the X230.
Lenovo is generally amiable towards running Linux. It seems to run well on the X230.
Laptops are easily lost or stolen and crammed with parts that are poorly cooled and hard to replace or upgrade. They should be treated as disposable--you can't really afford it if you'd struggle to replace it even once. If I had that problem and absolutely had to be mobile, I'd buy a netbook, work remotely on a real computer (VPS, EC2, whatever), and back up religiously. You definitely shouldn't squander a big fraction of your entire net worth on the Apple Tax, suggestions here to the contrary.
I am also in school (1 year older). And have tried several laptops over the last couple years. I am currently using a 13 inch business laptop.
You asked about software
I currently am using one of the business laptops that are large corporate companies use. For example Thinkpad, and HP often get into corporate deals with hospitals, schools, IT infrastructures, etc..
Reasons I would do so.
1) Cost - They are often fairly cheap to buy a used one. I believe there is an decrease in cost that goes on with the devices. Companies buy them in bulk and then often sell them in bulk.
2) Supported - by companies, hardware and even linux(both hp and thinkpad are often Intel graphics cards)
3) Take Apart - They are often intended to be taken apart. I'm serious. I have a panel on the bottom of mine to eject the back. Instance access to RAM and hard drive. I personally like the flexibility.
4) Tracking Point -I can't stand one of those trackpads(Yes even on Macs). The business models almost always have tracking points because a lot of business people can't stand them either. This may or may not be a selling point for you, but it is for me.
5) Quality - The business models truly feel more solid to me, and you can more easily order replacement parts online.
6) Matte Display - If you are working for long hours, I find glossy displays impossible to use. Business laptops (at least all that I have seen) use Matte Displays. This is fairly different then the glossy ones they sell in Best Buy.
I used to own a Thinkpad, now I own a Elitebook 8460p - i5 4GB. I bought it for $350 off ebay.
I will probably get a Thinkpad in a year or so I like their keyboards better.
Additionally Thinpads are what a lot of the linux kernel guys and Googlers use.
You asked about software
- Windows 7(I use the old Windows 98 interface, still don't like the docky thing)
- Ubuntu (I use the gnome style, again not the dock)
- Mac OSX (depends on the hardware and if you are willing to do some trail and error)
I currently am using one of the business laptops that are large corporate companies use. For example Thinkpad, and HP often get into corporate deals with hospitals, schools, IT infrastructures, etc..
Reasons I would do so.
1) Cost - They are often fairly cheap to buy a used one. I believe there is an decrease in cost that goes on with the devices. Companies buy them in bulk and then often sell them in bulk.
2) Supported - by companies, hardware and even linux(both hp and thinkpad are often Intel graphics cards)
3) Take Apart - They are often intended to be taken apart. I'm serious. I have a panel on the bottom of mine to eject the back. Instance access to RAM and hard drive. I personally like the flexibility.
4) Tracking Point -I can't stand one of those trackpads(Yes even on Macs). The business models almost always have tracking points because a lot of business people can't stand them either. This may or may not be a selling point for you, but it is for me.
5) Quality - The business models truly feel more solid to me, and you can more easily order replacement parts online.
6) Matte Display - If you are working for long hours, I find glossy displays impossible to use. Business laptops (at least all that I have seen) use Matte Displays. This is fairly different then the glossy ones they sell in Best Buy.
I used to own a Thinkpad, now I own a Elitebook 8460p - i5 4GB. I bought it for $350 off ebay.
I will probably get a Thinkpad in a year or so I like their keyboards better.
Additionally Thinpads are what a lot of the linux kernel guys and Googlers use.
I'd look for an old Macbook that you can actually upgrade (many you cannot). I'm still loving my 2008 Macbook 4.1. It's got a 2.4 Ghz processor, upgraded to SSD and 6GB of RAM and new battery (~4hrs runtime).
Check for refurbs and upgrade via Other World Computing. Not saying to go back as far as I am (for instance, my machine can't run Mountain Lion.)
I've run this computer hard - my first Mac after decades of PCs and I wouldn't go back. But do watch out for newer Mac models that can't be upgraded.
Check for refurbs and upgrade via Other World Computing. Not saying to go back as far as I am (for instance, my machine can't run Mountain Lion.)
I've run this computer hard - my first Mac after decades of PCs and I wouldn't go back. But do watch out for newer Mac models that can't be upgraded.
I am a web developer and I personally use this one.
http://www.sony.co.in/product/vpcyb25ag
I got it for ~$450. It's a little slow but it gets the job done. It's extremely portable. My friends are jealous because I pick it up like it costs nothing. It's relatively lightweight. It came with Windows 7 Starter Edition preinstalled. I cleaned it up and installed Archlinux on it. Now it's my goto machine for hacking on stuff.
http://www.sony.co.in/product/vpcyb25ag
I got it for ~$450. It's a little slow but it gets the job done. It's extremely portable. My friends are jealous because I pick it up like it costs nothing. It's relatively lightweight. It came with Windows 7 Starter Edition preinstalled. I cleaned it up and installed Archlinux on it. Now it's my goto machine for hacking on stuff.
I'm also 17 and I was recently in a similar situation. I ended up buying this computer for a little bit over the price you asked http://us.toshiba.com/computers/laptops/satellite/P850/P855-...
Up to now I had no problems. It has some really nice specs (Intel i7 Processor, 8 GB ram), has great sound and it's not heavy
I would suggest an older-generation macbook. Between the excellent hardware build quality and the well-maintained software, they don't become obsolete quickly. I've got enough cash on hand to buy a new laptop several times over, but my old macbook is still going.
If it's battery life you want, then you definitely should go with the macbook air.
If it's battery life you want, then you definitely should go with the macbook air.
What about finding some local business with a poor website and offering to build them a new website for $500 if they help you buy your next computer. Now you have $1,200 to buy a new Macbook.
Don't just think about the cash you have now, think about how you can use that tool to make more...even if it is before you have the laptop.
Don't just think about the cash you have now, think about how you can use that tool to make more...even if it is before you have the laptop.
CNET has a nice site you might want to see: http://reviews.cnet.com/laptop-reviews/
Save the money. Why buy a laptop that's only OK when you can Save 2000 and then spend a good amount on abetter laptop and still have 700 left over.
Second hand x220? I use it as my personal laptop and I love it (ssd, i5, 8Gb of ram)
You can pick up a 2009 Aluminum Macbook Pro from Ebay for around $550ish.
if you must buy save and get a system76 linux laptop. There you go, linux and supporting a good company. Pricesn't aren't bad.
I also agree that saving up for a MacBook will be worth the money.
My first laptop was a Dell Vostro, which is essentially a rebranded Inspiron. The keyboard and screen were excellent. I had issues with stability (BSOD), the slow 5400rpm harddrive didn't have much kick, the trackpad sucked, and the AC port broke. Luckily, due to my warranty, they sent out a tech to fix the AC port the next day.
Next up was a Lenovo Thinkpad T400. While the trackpad was slightly better, and the laptop itself was built like a brick, the quality of the screen with subpar, I still had BSOD issues, and the overall performance seemed to degrade very quickly. Like you, I wanted some killer battery life, so I went for the 9 cell instead of a 6 cell -- basically, a larger battery that "stuck out" of the back. Brand new, the laptop was getting a solid 8 hours, but within 15 months, it was down to 3 hours. It was really, really disappointing. In addition, the default settings for the laptop being unplugged limited the power to the wireless adapter to 50%. This was buried under several menus, and caused me to have intermittent connectivity issues for the first year I owned it, until I happened to stumble upon that one setting. Lenovo didn't offer and onsite warranty, so I had to yank the harddrive out and send mail the laptop back to them to get it serviced.
Two years ago I got a 15" MacBook Pro, and I'm still very happy with it today. My battery has degraded about 10%, so I get around 4-5 hours unplugged instead of 5-7. I opted for an SSD which was a massive performance gain compared to my old laptops. I haven't had any stability issues, and my performance is just as good as the day I bought it. The only issue is that I've had two power adapter cords break on me, but with AppleCare (totally worth the money) Apple has replaced them with no problem.
In terms of running Linux, you can very easily use VirtualBox (free) or Parallels (paid) to run Linux on OSX, instead of having to boot into one or the other. This makes it super easy to try out different distros, and if you run it in fullscreen, due to OSX's Virtual Desktops, you can assign Linux to your second desktop, and literally three-finger-swipe between OSX and Linux. It's really cool if you want to take advantage of Mac-only apps, but still get to play around with Linux. That said, the 128gb SSD might feel a little cramped a year or two down the line, but it's certainly livable.
Personally, 11" is too small for me, so I'd suggest shooting for a 13". AppleCare is $249, and you can buy it any time within the first year of owning your Mac (IIRC, all Macs have a 1-year warranty). That might make it easier to purchase one now, and deal with the extra cost later.
Really, if you have an Apple store or a Best Buy within driving distance, you should try out a half dozen different laptops. The difference in quality should be very apparent.
My first laptop was a Dell Vostro, which is essentially a rebranded Inspiron. The keyboard and screen were excellent. I had issues with stability (BSOD), the slow 5400rpm harddrive didn't have much kick, the trackpad sucked, and the AC port broke. Luckily, due to my warranty, they sent out a tech to fix the AC port the next day.
Next up was a Lenovo Thinkpad T400. While the trackpad was slightly better, and the laptop itself was built like a brick, the quality of the screen with subpar, I still had BSOD issues, and the overall performance seemed to degrade very quickly. Like you, I wanted some killer battery life, so I went for the 9 cell instead of a 6 cell -- basically, a larger battery that "stuck out" of the back. Brand new, the laptop was getting a solid 8 hours, but within 15 months, it was down to 3 hours. It was really, really disappointing. In addition, the default settings for the laptop being unplugged limited the power to the wireless adapter to 50%. This was buried under several menus, and caused me to have intermittent connectivity issues for the first year I owned it, until I happened to stumble upon that one setting. Lenovo didn't offer and onsite warranty, so I had to yank the harddrive out and send mail the laptop back to them to get it serviced.
Two years ago I got a 15" MacBook Pro, and I'm still very happy with it today. My battery has degraded about 10%, so I get around 4-5 hours unplugged instead of 5-7. I opted for an SSD which was a massive performance gain compared to my old laptops. I haven't had any stability issues, and my performance is just as good as the day I bought it. The only issue is that I've had two power adapter cords break on me, but with AppleCare (totally worth the money) Apple has replaced them with no problem.
In terms of running Linux, you can very easily use VirtualBox (free) or Parallels (paid) to run Linux on OSX, instead of having to boot into one or the other. This makes it super easy to try out different distros, and if you run it in fullscreen, due to OSX's Virtual Desktops, you can assign Linux to your second desktop, and literally three-finger-swipe between OSX and Linux. It's really cool if you want to take advantage of Mac-only apps, but still get to play around with Linux. That said, the 128gb SSD might feel a little cramped a year or two down the line, but it's certainly livable.
Personally, 11" is too small for me, so I'd suggest shooting for a 13". AppleCare is $249, and you can buy it any time within the first year of owning your Mac (IIRC, all Macs have a 1-year warranty). That might make it easier to purchase one now, and deal with the extra cost later.
Really, if you have an Apple store or a Best Buy within driving distance, you should try out a half dozen different laptops. The difference in quality should be very apparent.
defintely get a macbook. wait and keep saving if you have to.
Don't buy Windows. You will encounter so many problems you're going to wish you had saved for a MACBOOK PRO (:
I'm also getting into Linux and plan to install a distro on the new laptop; feel free to suggest a particular setup X to go with laptop Y.
(I only mention I'm 17 to show that I don't work full-time; I'm still in school; I have few living costs; etc.)