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31 comments
In general, I agree with this. I speak to someone that's younger in a different manner than I do someone who is an adult.
Not only that, I feel like someone starting out stands to be affected a lot more by negative feedback. In this case knowing the experience level gives me a chance to word my advice in such a manner as to help them improve while also encouraging them.
Not only that, I feel like someone starting out stands to be affected a lot more by negative feedback. In this case knowing the experience level gives me a chance to word my advice in such a manner as to help them improve while also encouraging them.
Ever seen a post saying “I’m a Norwegian woman, look what I made”? Your personal info is just as irrelevant. Please don’t destroy the balance of equality with it.
Let's be honest, a post titled this would probably skyrocket to the front page and devolve into arguing about women in tech within the first hour exactly how the I'm X old and made X posts devolve.
Let's be honest, a post titled this would probably skyrocket to the front page and devolve into arguing about women in tech within the first hour exactly how the I'm X old and made X posts devolve.
Because the metric is excellence. Realistically, you can't expect a 14 year old to produce something of the quality from someone with a decade more experience, all else being equal. But if they can produce something that is uncommonly ahead of your time, then you have a case for showing it off based on that fact, and it benefits the community to reward skill as early as possible and give people the opportunities that "fame" affords.
Age doesn't reflect on experience. There are 15 year olds that have half a decade of experience developing and there are 30 year olds that started last week.
The people that upvote "I'm 15 and this is my new app..." probably aren't going to upvote "I'm 30 and this is my new app..." but the latter could be a more impressive achievement.
The people that upvote "I'm 15 and this is my new app..." probably aren't going to upvote "I'm 30 and this is my new app..." but the latter could be a more impressive achievement.
Yep, that's called age fascism.
"Fascism" is a little strong, don't you think? "Discrimination" is probably more appropriate.
"I’m a Norwegian woman, look what I made"
To be fair, my expectations of the work of a female norwegian programmer would be similar to my expectations of an American male programmer of a similar age.
If you have a programmer who is ~14 and they did something, you can assume a few things will be true:
They did it without any significant financial backing.
They did it part time, as they are probably legally required to be following a general education programme full time.
They did it without a formal degree level education. The most advanced math they have probably been exposed to is basic algebra and trig.
They did it with around max 5 years programming experience.
To be fair, my expectations of the work of a female norwegian programmer would be similar to my expectations of an American male programmer of a similar age.
If you have a programmer who is ~14 and they did something, you can assume a few things will be true:
They did it without any significant financial backing.
They did it part time, as they are probably legally required to be following a general education programme full time.
They did it without a formal degree level education. The most advanced math they have probably been exposed to is basic algebra and trig.
They did it with around max 5 years programming experience.
> But in pursuit of this, don’t loose sight of your goal
I don't know why, but every time someone writes "loose" when they mean "lose" really bothers me. I need to work on that!
EDIT: Quote the relevant line from the post
I don't know why, but every time someone writes "loose" when they mean "lose" really bothers me. I need to work on that!
EDIT: Quote the relevant line from the post
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/misspelling
It's annoying. My pet peeves are your/you're and their/they're; seems everyone on Facebook under 25 is mixing them up, all the time.
It's annoying. My pet peeves are your/you're and their/they're; seems everyone on Facebook under 25 is mixing them up, all the time.
I grow so weary of this community's combativeness.
Allow me to translate such a headline.
"I am [age] and I made [thing]"
actually means
"I am new at this. I know you guys aren't. I want you to check it out and give me encouragement and guidance."
Do they want attention? Of course! They believe, correctly, that the attention of more experienced people will lead to their growth. We should absolutely give it to them. You really think our typical bickering is a better use of time than mentoring the next generation?
Getting young people into science and technology is the single greatest professional duty any technologist has. We need help. We have more problems to solve than we can count. We have an entire planet of dumb objects waiting to be woken up. We need software written and interfaces designed for classes of products we can't even imagine yet.
So we need kids to grow up and choose the very, very hard work of learning to bend technology to their will. We need them to believe they can make careers out of it.
And we certainly need them to believe that when they get there, they won't be surrounded by assholes.
When a kid shows up sharing their work, you circle around them and hoist them on your damn shoulders. They're choosing the career that will make your life better one day. They're choosing the career that will broaden your hiring pool one day. They're, blessedly, choosing tech over drugs, drink, violence and investment banking.
Celebrate them, for fuck's sake.
Allow me to translate such a headline.
"I am [age] and I made [thing]"
actually means
"I am new at this. I know you guys aren't. I want you to check it out and give me encouragement and guidance."
Do they want attention? Of course! They believe, correctly, that the attention of more experienced people will lead to their growth. We should absolutely give it to them. You really think our typical bickering is a better use of time than mentoring the next generation?
Getting young people into science and technology is the single greatest professional duty any technologist has. We need help. We have more problems to solve than we can count. We have an entire planet of dumb objects waiting to be woken up. We need software written and interfaces designed for classes of products we can't even imagine yet.
So we need kids to grow up and choose the very, very hard work of learning to bend technology to their will. We need them to believe they can make careers out of it.
And we certainly need them to believe that when they get there, they won't be surrounded by assholes.
When a kid shows up sharing their work, you circle around them and hoist them on your damn shoulders. They're choosing the career that will make your life better one day. They're choosing the career that will broaden your hiring pool one day. They're, blessedly, choosing tech over drugs, drink, violence and investment banking.
Celebrate them, for fuck's sake.
Agree 100%. Also, I think it's a positive, because it means the poster is proactively thinking about how to get attention for his product, as opposed to being the "proud closeted genius".
Agree 100%. The OP has probably written this because of the 14 year old who developed an app (was on HN earlier). I found it so inspiring. Developing anything, especially apps, I imagine is not easy - I applaud anyone who can do it but the fact the person did it at such a young age was so impressive and made me think 'wow, if a 14 year old can do this then so can I, I should learn'.
If these types of posts piss you off so much, just ignore it. Half the time it is as though some on HN think they are forced to read every post. You're not. If you know something is going to piss you off, ignore it and read something else - there are plenty of articles to choose from.
If these types of posts piss you off so much, just ignore it. Half the time it is as though some on HN think they are forced to read every post. You're not. If you know something is going to piss you off, ignore it and read something else - there are plenty of articles to choose from.
This is awesome.
> why mar the pride you should be feeling with manipulation?
Because the achievement is greater with context of the creator. It's actually more interesting when a 14 year old creates a mediocre iOS app compared to 24 year old. Similarly it's more interesting when a 6 year old runs a marathon or a 10 year old graduates college (yes, both happened).
Honestly it sounds like the writer is bitter for whatever reason. HN has a voting system where the most interesting things are voted to the top and accomplishing a lot at a young age is more interesting to the HN community.
Because the achievement is greater with context of the creator. It's actually more interesting when a 14 year old creates a mediocre iOS app compared to 24 year old. Similarly it's more interesting when a 6 year old runs a marathon or a 10 year old graduates college (yes, both happened).
Honestly it sounds like the writer is bitter for whatever reason. HN has a voting system where the most interesting things are voted to the top and accomplishing a lot at a young age is more interesting to the HN community.
>Honestly it sounds like the writer is bitter for whatever reason
Because the writer doesn't understand how important context is to understanding. The yc application isn't up right now, but I remember a question on it along the lines of "why you?" Reality is not a function of the event as event, but of the relationship of that event to past, and future, events.
Because the writer doesn't understand how important context is to understanding. The yc application isn't up right now, but I remember a question on it along the lines of "why you?" Reality is not a function of the event as event, but of the relationship of that event to past, and future, events.
Thanks for posting this. Also, I would think that one of the main goals of submitting your work to HN would be to get some valuable feedback. If you tell everyone, "I am only 12, check out what I made," many people will give you feedback based on your age. I don't think you want, or need, that. You want your work to be treated just like everyone else's. Because it doesn't matter how good your work is for somebody your age, what does matter is if your product is something people will want to use.
Speaking from experience, if you keep getting advice based on your age and if you keep comparing your work to other people your age, it will be a lot more difficult to get to that next level. Whereas, if you compare your work to just plain good work, you won't be able to say "Well, at least this is much better than most of what people my age are doing," which really means nothing because most people aren't doing shit.
Speaking from experience, if you keep getting advice based on your age and if you keep comparing your work to other people your age, it will be a lot more difficult to get to that next level. Whereas, if you compare your work to just plain good work, you won't be able to say "Well, at least this is much better than most of what people my age are doing," which really means nothing because most people aren't doing shit.
Someone who is 12 wants and needs is exactly that. That's why we don't rate science projects made by 12 year olds by the same standard we rate Nobel Prize winners.
Here's an idea: How about not arguing about whether or not age or sex or anything like that matters? The product is what it is and age does't change that. However, knowing the age of the person is invaluable to telling them how they can improve themselves. If you want to tell a person how to get to where they want to go, you need to know where they are.
Most of the kids intelligent enough to find this community and build something on their own are probably much more interested in sincere and helpful feedback than upvotes. If anything, upvotes are just a tool for them to get more visibility and therefore a better chance of good feedback. I know that's how I felt when I was their age. I think this community would be a lot better off it we spent our energy giving useful feedback to those who ask us for it instead of bickering over non-issues like this.
Most of the kids intelligent enough to find this community and build something on their own are probably much more interested in sincere and helpful feedback than upvotes. If anything, upvotes are just a tool for them to get more visibility and therefore a better chance of good feedback. I know that's how I felt when I was their age. I think this community would be a lot better off it we spent our energy giving useful feedback to those who ask us for it instead of bickering over non-issues like this.
Look man, give kids a break. You want them to be good, but when they build something you give them shit? Who gives a fuck if they put their age on the thread title. Let them put their age in it if will keep them away from the streets (drugs and bad shit) and towards a better life.
When I was 14 years old I started my first business. Man I got so much shit from people. It was awful. I was trying to sell something, but they would not buy because I was too young. Fuck that! But you know who doesnt care if you are too young to sell stuff? Drug dealers. They hire kids to peddle their trash for them. There I was, making an effort not to sell drugs, and people were making it hard for me. You dont know how hard some of these kids may have it. I grew up in a pretty tough barrio, where most of my friends are either dead, in jail, or fucked up. I'm the only one who made it out of there.
So give kids a break. Sure their app might might stink, but who cares? People here talk about fostering creativity and innovation. Shut up and let the kids get a share of the attention.
When I was 14 years old I started my first business. Man I got so much shit from people. It was awful. I was trying to sell something, but they would not buy because I was too young. Fuck that! But you know who doesnt care if you are too young to sell stuff? Drug dealers. They hire kids to peddle their trash for them. There I was, making an effort not to sell drugs, and people were making it hard for me. You dont know how hard some of these kids may have it. I grew up in a pretty tough barrio, where most of my friends are either dead, in jail, or fucked up. I'm the only one who made it out of there.
So give kids a break. Sure their app might might stink, but who cares? People here talk about fostering creativity and innovation. Shut up and let the kids get a share of the attention.
I think age is relevant insofar as it's indicative of experience. I think there is value, both for the OP and commenters, in knowing the age of a particularly young poster because you can reference your experiences in learning to build things and encourage them in their pursuits. It's also incredibly encouraging to see young people building at an early age.
You imply that they were gaming the system to by using their age to get on the first page, rather than their merit. I'd say that something perhaps mediocre built by someone who is young merits recognition more than something mediocre built by an older, perhaps more experienced developer (we've all seen the "Weekend project" posts, but we say "hey cool, you did that in a weekend?!").
As you say, "I think anybody who wants to learn, share, and grow should be commended and encouraged, and I’m glad HN agrees with me." Isn't knowing how young someone is or how experienced they are relevant to assisting in ones learning and growth? If you've been a Rubyist for 15 years, another's advice to you on something you've built is going to be much different than if you've only been at it for 15 months.
Let's not shit on a 14 year old kid (yes, everyone knows what post you were talking about). There's no "manipulation" in mentioning your age when you're seeking feedback and growth. It's very helpful to know where someone is in their development when offering feedback and encouragement, and I think if HN is to be the sort of place where folks come to "learn, share, and grow," we should allow people to share their age or how long they've been at it.
You did bring up a good point though, that this may not have made it to the front page if it wasn't for his age. Perhaps HN readers should be more generous in helping folks get feedback on their work by upvoting "Show HN" posts. If what they've built is really complete shit, then we should help them learn why that's so by upvoting and commenting on what they've built. It seems more constructive than passive aggressive blog posts tearing people down.
You imply that they were gaming the system to by using their age to get on the first page, rather than their merit. I'd say that something perhaps mediocre built by someone who is young merits recognition more than something mediocre built by an older, perhaps more experienced developer (we've all seen the "Weekend project" posts, but we say "hey cool, you did that in a weekend?!").
As you say, "I think anybody who wants to learn, share, and grow should be commended and encouraged, and I’m glad HN agrees with me." Isn't knowing how young someone is or how experienced they are relevant to assisting in ones learning and growth? If you've been a Rubyist for 15 years, another's advice to you on something you've built is going to be much different than if you've only been at it for 15 months.
Let's not shit on a 14 year old kid (yes, everyone knows what post you were talking about). There's no "manipulation" in mentioning your age when you're seeking feedback and growth. It's very helpful to know where someone is in their development when offering feedback and encouragement, and I think if HN is to be the sort of place where folks come to "learn, share, and grow," we should allow people to share their age or how long they've been at it.
You did bring up a good point though, that this may not have made it to the front page if it wasn't for his age. Perhaps HN readers should be more generous in helping folks get feedback on their work by upvoting "Show HN" posts. If what they've built is really complete shit, then we should help them learn why that's so by upvoting and commenting on what they've built. It seems more constructive than passive aggressive blog posts tearing people down.
I'm sort of torn on this issue. In a lot of ways I really agree with this article. On the other hand, with my experience helping with a first-year college programming course I care, in a way, about the age/level of experience.
I might tailor, not my advice, but my manner of communicating to the age and experience level of the individual.
I really see both sides of this argument but would err on the side of preferring that people not mention their age. This is simply because it does always seem to devolve into an argument on whether or not they should have posted their age.
I might tailor, not my advice, but my manner of communicating to the age and experience level of the individual.
I really see both sides of this argument but would err on the side of preferring that people not mention their age. This is simply because it does always seem to devolve into an argument on whether or not they should have posted their age.
I suppose we should also strike from the history books any reference to Mozart's age regarding his musical accomplishments?
Using your age to promote your project is just another use of competitive advantage on another axis. Marketing is a big part of software, so if people are drawn by an unusual age (playing on the novelty factor), use it.
Also we should be encouraging more young people to enter the industry, not slapping them for being excited about it. No wonder more and more people see software engineers as vindictive jerks. Caramba.
Using your age to promote your project is just another use of competitive advantage on another axis. Marketing is a big part of software, so if people are drawn by an unusual age (playing on the novelty factor), use it.
Also we should be encouraging more young people to enter the industry, not slapping them for being excited about it. No wonder more and more people see software engineers as vindictive jerks. Caramba.
Excuse me, but you're just being unfair.
People here upvote what they find surprising or interesting (tech or science related stuff). If people find surprising that a kid that is starting high-school has been able to develop an app (and statistically, it's quite surprising), they upvote it.
If a kid thinks that some people might find interesting that he, being as old as he is, has developed an app, he has the right to submit his app to HN.
Generally, I don't know why we shouldn't submit what we think other geeks may find cool.
People here upvote what they find surprising or interesting (tech or science related stuff). If people find surprising that a kid that is starting high-school has been able to develop an app (and statistically, it's quite surprising), they upvote it.
If a kid thinks that some people might find interesting that he, being as old as he is, has developed an app, he has the right to submit his app to HN.
Generally, I don't know why we shouldn't submit what we think other geeks may find cool.
I read this as, "Something that matters to other people doesn't matter to me, so please everyone stop talking about it!"
To me, the fact that something was built by someone young and inexperienced makes a difference — I'm likely to be gentler and, instead of disregarding it because of its flaws, willing to kindly point out those flaws. It may be irrelevant in your mind, but look: obviously many in this community disagree.
To me, the fact that something was built by someone young and inexperienced makes a difference — I'm likely to be gentler and, instead of disregarding it because of its flaws, willing to kindly point out those flaws. It may be irrelevant in your mind, but look: obviously many in this community disagree.
What's wrong with using every advantage you have? If it helps bring attention to your product, you should use it. Let's do a simple cost-benefit analysis:
Benefit: A lot of users are (cheaply) drawn to the post. Some snobby coders are going to be upset, but still check out your product so that they can complain about it.
Cost: Some really vindictive coders might go out of their way to slander you? (Man, I really hope not...)
Benefit: A lot of users are (cheaply) drawn to the post. Some snobby coders are going to be upset, but still check out your product so that they can complain about it.
Cost: Some really vindictive coders might go out of their way to slander you? (Man, I really hope not...)
But really, young people get angered when others don't take them seriously because of their age. I don't get why then some of them think that doing something at a young age is worth of praise by itself.
Best case scenario, It just sounds like those mobile email signatures, that excuse themselves for a crappy and short response.
Best case scenario, It just sounds like those mobile email signatures, that excuse themselves for a crappy and short response.
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>I have seen submissions that, were they standing entirely on their own merit, would probably have never gotten more than a few upvotes
Most great stories have some context to them.
So my question for op is: why do you want to diminish something by removing the context from the story?
Most great stories have some context to them.
So my question for op is: why do you want to diminish something by removing the context from the story?
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It needed saying. I'm sad that it did, but kudos for saying it.
Posts that mention age are part of my "Downvote on sight" function.
I think theres more teens here than you would guess at first glance.
I think theres more teens here than you would guess at first glance.
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This has replaced the "I built this in 5.8 minutes while getting a hair cut" posts.
If it weren't relevant, it wouldn't influence outcomes.
As long as you didn't use Rails, you're golden!
Next up: XCode fetus edition.
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yawn
Writing a clunky iOS app at 14 is not that a big deal. I was writing more complex apps at 14 on assembly language with some hand-wired hardcore highly optimized math, back in the days when programming was much harder and low-level, but nobody was giving a crap, because it was actually rather common, a lot of folks did jaw-dropping demos, and I did not shout about that at the corner, because even back then I did not think it was important.
What that kid did is he exploited his age in a goofy annoying manner.
What that kid did is he exploited his age in a goofy annoying manner.
People keep on describing this as manipulation. In what way is it manipulation?
People upvote stories they think have interesting characteristics. If these stories are showing up on the front page, it's because people find them interesting. If people in the community are finding stories about young people creating things interesting, who are you to tell them this is invalid? Should we all use your standards when determining whether a story is interesting or not?
Rather than complain about what others find interesting, why don't you just not upvote those stories and not click on them? I bypass stories I don't think I'll find interesting every day, and I don't enter the comments section and complain about them.
"Valuable feedback, one of the main benefits of posting, will be buried under paragraphs vitriol. Why waste such a good opportunity?"
The solution to this is easy -- keep your vitriol to yourself.
People upvote stories they think have interesting characteristics. If these stories are showing up on the front page, it's because people find them interesting. If people in the community are finding stories about young people creating things interesting, who are you to tell them this is invalid? Should we all use your standards when determining whether a story is interesting or not?
Rather than complain about what others find interesting, why don't you just not upvote those stories and not click on them? I bypass stories I don't think I'll find interesting every day, and I don't enter the comments section and complain about them.
"Valuable feedback, one of the main benefits of posting, will be buried under paragraphs vitriol. Why waste such a good opportunity?"
The solution to this is easy -- keep your vitriol to yourself.
As someone who was 15 and making Windows freeware in 1997, let me tell you - it mattered a whole world that people acknowledged that what I was doing was very impressive for a 15 year old. I actively told people that I was the author of X and that I was 15, specifically because I needed to gauge their reaction to see whether they thought I was sufficiently talented in the field to pursue it full time. In fact, if they hadn't done that then, I don't know if I today would be the reasonably successful software developer I am.
It is a very rare kid who has infinite internal confidence that what they are doing is good and worthwhile and will be appreciated by the world. Others need encouragement. So shut up, and get off the frontpage.