Don't Drop Out to Do a Startup(blog.christianyang.com)
blog.christianyang.com
Don't Drop Out to Do a Startup
http://blog.christianyang.com/2013/01/02/dont-drop-out-to-do-a-startup/
21 comments
My thoughts exactly.
Instead of using misleading correlations, the article could have just said:
"If you come from a rich family, you can do pretty much whatever you want."
That'd be more fun to read.
Instead of using misleading correlations, the article could have just said:
"If you come from a rich family, you can do pretty much whatever you want."
That'd be more fun to read.
Fair point about a single number not painting the whole picture. Any thoughts on what stats might show a better correlation?
Another datapoint was an informal one-year follow-up to the first wave of Thiel's 20 under 20 (http://qr.ae/14o5S). Of the select few that were chosen based on their skills/ideas/potential and given access to Thiel's network, quite a few ended up actually going back to school.
Another datapoint was an informal one-year follow-up to the first wave of Thiel's 20 under 20 (http://qr.ae/14o5S). Of the select few that were chosen based on their skills/ideas/potential and given access to Thiel's network, quite a few ended up actually going back to school.
Your argument is something like, "If you want to have a successful startup, you should complete college, because most of these hyper-successful people have completed college."
You then say the probability of having a college degree, given that you are on the Forbes 400 list, is 85%. That doesn't necessarily tell you the answer the question "What is the probability of making it to the Forbes 400 list, given that you have (or don't have) a college degree?"
Let's think about what you are trying to do. You want to take the population of college attending startup founders (or future founders), and make a prediction about which members of that group will be hugely successful based on whether or not they complete college. Let's say you run a survey of your readers now and then follow up with them 10 years from now. This would allow you to calculate several things:
* The probability of great success with college completion.
* The probability of great success without college completion.
Do you think those numbers are going to be appreciable? Do you think they'll be similar in magnitude? I suspect they'd be much smaller than 1%. In other words, I don't think that college completion is a strong predictor of great (Forbes 400 level) success. You haven't really established a causal relationship between finishing college and becoming wildly successful.
I suspect (and I think this is the point the GP is making) that your last name (is it Walton? or Pritzker?) or your parents' income would be much stronger predictors of this type of success.
You then say the probability of having a college degree, given that you are on the Forbes 400 list, is 85%. That doesn't necessarily tell you the answer the question "What is the probability of making it to the Forbes 400 list, given that you have (or don't have) a college degree?"
Let's think about what you are trying to do. You want to take the population of college attending startup founders (or future founders), and make a prediction about which members of that group will be hugely successful based on whether or not they complete college. Let's say you run a survey of your readers now and then follow up with them 10 years from now. This would allow you to calculate several things:
* The probability of great success with college completion.
* The probability of great success without college completion.
Do you think those numbers are going to be appreciable? Do you think they'll be similar in magnitude? I suspect they'd be much smaller than 1%. In other words, I don't think that college completion is a strong predictor of great (Forbes 400 level) success. You haven't really established a causal relationship between finishing college and becoming wildly successful.
I suspect (and I think this is the point the GP is making) that your last name (is it Walton? or Pritzker?) or your parents' income would be much stronger predictors of this type of success.
I'd love to see socioeconomic status pulled out of the equation.
i.e. Take 1000 offspring of middle/upper class folks. Measure the difference between those who chose to go to college and those who did not.
Measuring the economic success of people who don't go to college is (most of the time) measuring the success of people who can't afford to go to college.
i.e. Take 1000 offspring of middle/upper class folks. Measure the difference between those who chose to go to college and those who did not.
Measuring the economic success of people who don't go to college is (most of the time) measuring the success of people who can't afford to go to college.
Ok, so lets say you did that. Do you have a hypothesis about what might be different?
College is actually reasonably affordable, there are accredited four year university degrees that cost about $25K over four years. Generally those are 'state' schools but still $25K it what it costs to buy a car, so if one can choose between buying a car and going to school we could do some interesting comparisons there.
In every survey I've ever seen, whether it was done by the Census bureau or the chamber of commerce, people with college degrees were more likely to have better economic success than someone who had not completed college. The numbers are quite skewed toward college graduates with STEM [1] degrees.
By and large, today, for the general case, if you want to increase your chances for economic success, getting a STEM degree from an accredited college is your most highly leveraged investment.
[1] STEM - Science Technology Engineering Mathematics
College is actually reasonably affordable, there are accredited four year university degrees that cost about $25K over four years. Generally those are 'state' schools but still $25K it what it costs to buy a car, so if one can choose between buying a car and going to school we could do some interesting comparisons there.
In every survey I've ever seen, whether it was done by the Census bureau or the chamber of commerce, people with college degrees were more likely to have better economic success than someone who had not completed college. The numbers are quite skewed toward college graduates with STEM [1] degrees.
By and large, today, for the general case, if you want to increase your chances for economic success, getting a STEM degree from an accredited college is your most highly leveraged investment.
[1] STEM - Science Technology Engineering Mathematics
Coming at this 7 days late, but...
The median household income in the US is $49k, I believe. 40% of households spend more than they bring in and have considerable consumer debt. Of course, 50% of households make LESS than $49k income and 2+ kids.
Here's a list of state schools with instate and out of state tuition: http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/colleges/
This is their "best values" list. Nowhere is a $25k over 4 year school that I can see.
You'll need to account for living expense, textbooks, etc., for those 4 years as well (or maybe you're assuming that our hypothetical student can find a supporting job while going to school-- note that youth unemployment is approx. 2X the national average, and that the cheaper schools here are in states with generally higher unemployment).
Saying that college is reasonably affordable for most americans is just crazy.
All that aside, my hypothesis is that college impacts success (STEM-degrees having a higher impact), but that socioeconomic starting point has more of an impact. When you have three things that are highly correlated (success, starting point, and education) it's really hard to argue for causation with controlling for the third variable. When I look at all of my high-school peers who didn't finish college, they're all employed and making great money (I went to a mediocre private school in Maryland), but half of contemporary college grads (presumably most near the median background) can't find jobs (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57434159/half-of-colle... ).
The median household income in the US is $49k, I believe. 40% of households spend more than they bring in and have considerable consumer debt. Of course, 50% of households make LESS than $49k income and 2+ kids.
Here's a list of state schools with instate and out of state tuition: http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/colleges/
This is their "best values" list. Nowhere is a $25k over 4 year school that I can see.
You'll need to account for living expense, textbooks, etc., for those 4 years as well (or maybe you're assuming that our hypothetical student can find a supporting job while going to school-- note that youth unemployment is approx. 2X the national average, and that the cheaper schools here are in states with generally higher unemployment).
Saying that college is reasonably affordable for most americans is just crazy.
All that aside, my hypothesis is that college impacts success (STEM-degrees having a higher impact), but that socioeconomic starting point has more of an impact. When you have three things that are highly correlated (success, starting point, and education) it's really hard to argue for causation with controlling for the third variable. When I look at all of my high-school peers who didn't finish college, they're all employed and making great money (I went to a mediocre private school in Maryland), but half of contemporary college grads (presumably most near the median background) can't find jobs (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57434159/half-of-colle... ).
That's not really that surprising though... If someone drops of out school for the 20 under 20, the chance that they'd go back to school if they fail is incredibly high. So then unless all 20 of them are guaranteed not to fail, you'd expect to see "quite a few" going back to school.
I guess was looking at it more like of those that dropped out, how many ended up not succeeding, with the correlation implying that dropping out wasn't the right choice.
Agreed that there are quite a few confounding variables though. Any stats majors out there that know how to adjust for socioeconomic status + other biases?
Agreed that there are quite a few confounding variables though. Any stats majors out there that know how to adjust for socioeconomic status + other biases?
I have absolutely no evidence to back this up, but: I feel as if the "shallowness" of recent SV-culture startups can partly be attributed to the glorification of what I'll call "dropout culture," that being a subtle anti-intellectualism and an acceptance of the idea that only technical knowledge is valuable.
University forces you to be exposed to a lot of different fields (that you would never see otherwise).
University forces you to be exposed to a lot of different fields (that you would never see otherwise).
One of the top three classes I took at my university (next to "Algorithms" and "Data Structures") was "Introduction to Drawing." It's changed the way I look at aesthetic beauty. I would have had a hard time motivating myself to have that experience otherwise.
I couldn't agree more. Steve Jobs is an interesting example in this case - although he dropped out, he credited a random calligraphy class as the inspiration for some of the Mac's beautiful typography:
"Because I had dropped out and didn’t have to take the normal classes, I decided to take a calligraphy class to learn how to do this. I learned about serif and sans-serif typefaces, about varying the amount of space between different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can’t capture, and I found it fascinating.
"None of this had even a hope of any practical application in my life. But 10 years later, when we were designing the first Macintosh computer, it all came back to me. And we designed it all into the Mac. It was the first computer with beautiful typography."
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/steve-jobs-designer...
"Because I had dropped out and didn’t have to take the normal classes, I decided to take a calligraphy class to learn how to do this. I learned about serif and sans-serif typefaces, about varying the amount of space between different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can’t capture, and I found it fascinating.
"None of this had even a hope of any practical application in my life. But 10 years later, when we were designing the first Macintosh computer, it all came back to me. And we designed it all into the Mac. It was the first computer with beautiful typography."
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/steve-jobs-designer...
My sister is currently in college. The other day she was complaining about having to take classes outside her major to graduate. I made her watch the video of that speech and her opinion changed completely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc
I generally thought I was fairly well rounded before collage, but oddly enough it was fairly technical classes just outside of my specialty that I found most enlightening.
'History of Math' (Algebra was not developed until the dark ages? etc) 'foundations of geometry' (starts with logic and builds to counting and Euclidean geometry) 'Information Security' (Mostly a people problem.)
Where the purely technical classes like C++ and Databases where fairly useless by themselves.
'History of Math' (Algebra was not developed until the dark ages? etc) 'foundations of geometry' (starts with logic and builds to counting and Euclidean geometry) 'Information Security' (Mostly a people problem.)
Where the purely technical classes like C++ and Databases where fairly useless by themselves.
Ditto. My favorite class during my CS undergraduate aside from databases or probably autonoma was Sustainable Agriculture. I've purchased Michael Pollan's books for multiple people as a result, it's a very interesting field if you cut through the fanaticism of "being green" and made me reconsider what it is to be a "healthy" eater.
I ended up taking an ethics class to fulfill a deck requirement, and I loved it so much I declared a minor, five classes later. It's pretty hard to begin philosophy study outside a formal setting, so it would have been near impossible for me to realize this passion without the weirdness of college liberal arts requirements.
The ONLY reason this kind of thinking is gaining leverage is because the cost of college. College simply is unaffordable for small but growing portion of the population. If the price did not keep increasing past the point of inflation year after year no one would question the value of higher ed.
Well, that's half of it. To my understanding, college used to have more focus on simply becoming a more rounded, worldly individual. If that is your goal, the value of big name schools drops precipitously. It's the perception of college as the next level of education requisite for a job that increases the value of big name schools and leaves individuals weighting expected salary increase vs. tuition.
It probably isn't anything devious- no matter what you believe about higher education today, I think most people will agree that as human knowledge has expanded, so too has the amount of education required to perform and compete in cutting-edge fields.
It probably isn't anything devious- no matter what you believe about higher education today, I think most people will agree that as human knowledge has expanded, so too has the amount of education required to perform and compete in cutting-edge fields.
Believing that you can learn what you need without being taught by others is not anti-intellectualism.
SV-culture startups certainly value far more than technical knowledge - marketing (or "growth hacking" or whatever) for instance is certainly valued.
SV-culture startups certainly value far more than technical knowledge - marketing (or "growth hacking" or whatever) for instance is certainly valued.
Steve Jobs is definitely an outlier on this, but worth pointing out that Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg didn't drop out of "a college", they dropped out of Harvard, an institution with some of the toughest entrance requirements.
I'm far from being a fanboy (and went to a no-name state school), but admittance to Harvard is a high signal of intellect and self-discipline. Paired with lax return policy (you can extend a personal leave pretty much indefinitely) it makes sense when highly disciplined and hyper-productive young students decide to pursue a project they consider a chance of a lifetime.
Moreover, both billg and zuck used their Harvard connections to their advantage, by bringing in Steve Ballmer and Dustin Moskovitz respectively. Dropping out of Podunk State College and HVAC Repair Clinic just doesn't bring those advantages.
I'm far from being a fanboy (and went to a no-name state school), but admittance to Harvard is a high signal of intellect and self-discipline. Paired with lax return policy (you can extend a personal leave pretty much indefinitely) it makes sense when highly disciplined and hyper-productive young students decide to pursue a project they consider a chance of a lifetime.
Moreover, both billg and zuck used their Harvard connections to their advantage, by bringing in Steve Ballmer and Dustin Moskovitz respectively. Dropping out of Podunk State College and HVAC Repair Clinic just doesn't bring those advantages.
It's also important to note that Bill Gates' high-school was private and very rigorous. In fact, it was one of the first high-schools in the US to make computers available to its students.
Excellent point about connections... Also note that Paul Allen was BG's high-school friend.
Excellent point about connections... Also note that Paul Allen was BG's high-school friend.
Same for Mark Zuckerberg's school http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_Exeter_Academy
I personally think the biggest reason to go to college is that it's just plain fun. A rare chance in your life to have very few responsibilities and explore being yourself.
Unfortunately, add mounting costs, difficulties of finding jobs, and debt, and I'm not sure college is the perfect answer for long term success.
I wonder if many hot startups would rather hire someone that dropped out to do their own thing vs. someone who finished their degree? There is no replacement for real-world experience.
Unfortunately, add mounting costs, difficulties of finding jobs, and debt, and I'm not sure college is the perfect answer for long term success.
I wonder if many hot startups would rather hire someone that dropped out to do their own thing vs. someone who finished their degree? There is no replacement for real-world experience.
>I personally think the biggest reason to go to college is that it's just plain fun. A rare chance in your life to have very few responsibilities and explore being yourself.
Doing a CS major (or probably any other science) barely leaves you with any free time, and let's face it, it's not exactly the pinnacle of fun.
Doing a CS major (or probably any other science) barely leaves you with any free time, and let's face it, it's not exactly the pinnacle of fun.
As a CS major, I agree with your first statement, but wholly disagree with the latter. I thoroughly enjoyed my studies, even though they were rigorous. I majored in CS because I enjoyed it. It was plenty worth it at graduation when I could look back and say I actually accomplished something as well.
I'm currently in my 2nd year, and from what I gather most of the people aren't enjoying it so far. The first year was mostly pure math (Mathematical Analysis I & II, Linear Algebra I & II, Discrete Math, Intro to Probability) + a few comp sci courses (Scheme, Java and a very abstract Data Structures course).
I came to computer science from a software engineering perspective and less from a theoretical one, so that is probably why I'm not having a ball ;-) Hopefully in the 3rd year, once I get to pick electives I will enjoy it much more.
I came to computer science from a software engineering perspective and less from a theoretical one, so that is probably why I'm not having a ball ;-) Hopefully in the 3rd year, once I get to pick electives I will enjoy it much more.
I did a CS major and had plenty of free time. That being said, I made subconscious efforts to not try too hard in school :)
Agreed. College afforded me time to find out who I really was, what I enjoyed doing, and who I enjoyed doing it with. I envision myself making many, many mistakes in those departments had I not gone. The debt was completely worth it in my mind, I just treated it as an investment and worked hard to make sure I got an appropriate return.
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About the numerical argument, that's not a good argument. The fact that 92,5% of the people on the Forbes 30 Under 30 for Tech list did not drop out is meaningless by itself. Why?
Imagine that 92,5% of all population had degrees. Or even better: that 99% of all population had degrees.
It'd be more meaningful if you added the percentage of the population with degrees, the % of people without degrees who created failed startups...
But, anyways, I don't think that having/not having a degree is a fundamental factor in the success of your startup. Maybe you're already good enough to go forward. Maybe your idea is so great it compensates your lack of technical knowledge. Frankly, I think that dropping college to do a startup is neither a good or bad idea. It depends on you, your circumstances and the startup itself.
Imagine that 92,5% of all population had degrees. Or even better: that 99% of all population had degrees.
It'd be more meaningful if you added the percentage of the population with degrees, the % of people without degrees who created failed startups...
But, anyways, I don't think that having/not having a degree is a fundamental factor in the success of your startup. Maybe you're already good enough to go forward. Maybe your idea is so great it compensates your lack of technical knowledge. Frankly, I think that dropping college to do a startup is neither a good or bad idea. It depends on you, your circumstances and the startup itself.
Hi all. What sparked this post was the release of this year's Forbes 30 Under 30 for Tech. Turns out almost everyone on the list (92.5%, check article for more stats) did NOT drop out, so thought the numbers + anecdotal + personal experience would make a good case for sticking to school.
want to guesstimate how many people on the Forbes 30 for 30 list had private college paid for by their upper middle class (if not better parents)?
I think it makes sense to think seriously about the restrictions taking on education debt will place on your life in the future, and to think seriously about if that's the best use for the resources it takes to go to college
different viewpoint on ROI calculations:
The average tuition cost is approximately $16,000 per year. Plus assume another $10,000 in living costs, books, etc. $26,000 in total for a complete cost of $104,000 in a 4 year period. Some people choose to go more expensive by going to a private college and some people choose to go a little cheaper by going public but this is an average. Also, a huge assumption is that its just for a 4 year period. According to the Department of Education, only 54% of undergraduates graduate within 6 years. So for the 46% that don’t graduate, or take 10 years to graduate, this is a horrible investment. But lets assume your children are in the brilliant first half who finish within six years (and hopefully within four). Is it worth it? First, let’s look at it completely from a monetary perspective. Over the course of a lifetime, according to CollegeBoard, a college graduate can be expected to earn $800,000 more than his counterpart that didn’t go to college. $800,000 is a big spread and it could potentially separate the haves from the have-nots. But who has and who doesn’t? If I took that $104,000 and I chose to invest it in a savings account that had interest income of 5% per year I’d end up with an extra $1.4 million dollars over a 50 year period. A full $600,000 more. That $600,000 is a lot of extra money an 18 year old could look forward to in her retirement. I also think the $800,000 quoted above is too high. Right now most motivated kids who have the interest and resources to go to college think it’s the only way to go if they want a good job. If those same kids decided to not go to college my guess is they would quickly close the gap on that $800,000 spread. There are other factors as well. I won’t be spending $104,000 per child when my children, ages 10 and 7, decide to go to college. College costs have historically gone up much faster than inflation. Since 1978, cost of living has gone up three-fold. Medical costs, much to the horror of everyone in Congress, has gone up six-fold. And college education has gone up a whopping tenfold. This is beyond the housing bubble, the stock market bubble, any bubble you can think of. So how can people afford college? Well, how has the US consumer afforded anything? They borrow it, of course. The average student now graduates with a $23,000 debt burden. Up from $13,000 12 years ago. Last year, student borrowings totaled $75 billion, up 25% from the year before. If students go on to graduate degrees such as law degrees they can see their debt burden soar to $200,000 or more. And the easy borrowing convinces colleges that they can raise prices even more. http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2010/02/dont-send-your-kids-to-.... http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/01/10-more-reasons-why-par.... http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/01/8-alternatives-to-colle....
I think it makes sense to think seriously about the restrictions taking on education debt will place on your life in the future, and to think seriously about if that's the best use for the resources it takes to go to college
different viewpoint on ROI calculations:
The average tuition cost is approximately $16,000 per year. Plus assume another $10,000 in living costs, books, etc. $26,000 in total for a complete cost of $104,000 in a 4 year period. Some people choose to go more expensive by going to a private college and some people choose to go a little cheaper by going public but this is an average. Also, a huge assumption is that its just for a 4 year period. According to the Department of Education, only 54% of undergraduates graduate within 6 years. So for the 46% that don’t graduate, or take 10 years to graduate, this is a horrible investment. But lets assume your children are in the brilliant first half who finish within six years (and hopefully within four). Is it worth it? First, let’s look at it completely from a monetary perspective. Over the course of a lifetime, according to CollegeBoard, a college graduate can be expected to earn $800,000 more than his counterpart that didn’t go to college. $800,000 is a big spread and it could potentially separate the haves from the have-nots. But who has and who doesn’t? If I took that $104,000 and I chose to invest it in a savings account that had interest income of 5% per year I’d end up with an extra $1.4 million dollars over a 50 year period. A full $600,000 more. That $600,000 is a lot of extra money an 18 year old could look forward to in her retirement. I also think the $800,000 quoted above is too high. Right now most motivated kids who have the interest and resources to go to college think it’s the only way to go if they want a good job. If those same kids decided to not go to college my guess is they would quickly close the gap on that $800,000 spread. There are other factors as well. I won’t be spending $104,000 per child when my children, ages 10 and 7, decide to go to college. College costs have historically gone up much faster than inflation. Since 1978, cost of living has gone up three-fold. Medical costs, much to the horror of everyone in Congress, has gone up six-fold. And college education has gone up a whopping tenfold. This is beyond the housing bubble, the stock market bubble, any bubble you can think of. So how can people afford college? Well, how has the US consumer afforded anything? They borrow it, of course. The average student now graduates with a $23,000 debt burden. Up from $13,000 12 years ago. Last year, student borrowings totaled $75 billion, up 25% from the year before. If students go on to graduate degrees such as law degrees they can see their debt burden soar to $200,000 or more. And the easy borrowing convinces colleges that they can raise prices even more. http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2010/02/dont-send-your-kids-to-.... http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/01/10-more-reasons-why-par.... http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/01/8-alternatives-to-colle....
> want to guesstimate how many people on the Forbes 30 for 30 list had private college paid for by their upper middle class (if not better parents)?
But the origin of the college funds is irrelevant to the authors point. And say in Gates case, he wasn't really born on a farm either, would that mean that dropping out is only an option for wealthy kids, or..?
But the origin of the college funds is irrelevant to the authors point. And say in Gates case, he wasn't really born on a farm either, would that mean that dropping out is only an option for wealthy kids, or..?
as best I can tell, the orginal point is, go to college, its great, you'll learn alot of stuff, and you'll get marketable credentials
which is all obviously true, and not neccesarily determinate to the decision as to whether or not to drop out of college
those same points could be made about alot of activities you could engage in between the ages of 18-22
cost and roi are relevent to how you spend that time
which is all obviously true, and not neccesarily determinate to the decision as to whether or not to drop out of college
those same points could be made about alot of activities you could engage in between the ages of 18-22
cost and roi are relevent to how you spend that time
As someone who dropped out of college to start a company and successfully exited, I
wanted to give my personal perspective on this.
Dropping out of college made me more successful than I would have been in the short/medium term, but closed a lot of doors for in the long term which I spend a lot of time often thinking about. Although it's quite possible I could go back to college and finish my degree, the opportunity costs for me now are a lot higher; I will most likely never go to grad school. I was quite fortunate to create a business with a great idea and an easy execution; however, looking back, I could of easily chosen something that wouldn't of worked. It's only with my greater maturity now that I can see how lucky I was.
On the flip side of the token, if I hadn't dropped out of college, I probably would be slaving away in a consulting/investment banking role and never would of gone down the startup route. I would not be as happy/wealthy as I am today and I probably wouldn't be as mature as I am now. I understand my limitations/vulnerabilities and strengths better as a result today.
Although I'm happy with my decision, I have been having a sort of a midlife crisis at this point.
All through life, there's always something ahead. In middle school, you have high school. In high school you have college; and theoretically in college, you have some kind of first job. After your first job, you get promoted/transfer to higher paying jobs etc….
For someone who drops out of college, the path can be a bit ambiguous. I've sold my first company and I'll most likely start another company soon, but what happens after that? Do i continue starting/selling companies for the rest of my life? Do I end up just becoming an angel investor/partner at a vc firm? Or do i just retire now and do all the fun/creative projects that I wanted to do as a kid? I guess I'm still searching…
I'm still searching because the toughest problem of my life wasn't to drop out or stay; that decision was easy. The toughest problem of my life is something I've been delaying solving and which I should of tried to solve sooner and which I may never solve.
The toughest problem of my life will be to learn and choose what makes me happy.
Dropping out of college made me more successful than I would have been in the short/medium term, but closed a lot of doors for in the long term which I spend a lot of time often thinking about. Although it's quite possible I could go back to college and finish my degree, the opportunity costs for me now are a lot higher; I will most likely never go to grad school. I was quite fortunate to create a business with a great idea and an easy execution; however, looking back, I could of easily chosen something that wouldn't of worked. It's only with my greater maturity now that I can see how lucky I was.
On the flip side of the token, if I hadn't dropped out of college, I probably would be slaving away in a consulting/investment banking role and never would of gone down the startup route. I would not be as happy/wealthy as I am today and I probably wouldn't be as mature as I am now. I understand my limitations/vulnerabilities and strengths better as a result today.
Although I'm happy with my decision, I have been having a sort of a midlife crisis at this point.
All through life, there's always something ahead. In middle school, you have high school. In high school you have college; and theoretically in college, you have some kind of first job. After your first job, you get promoted/transfer to higher paying jobs etc….
For someone who drops out of college, the path can be a bit ambiguous. I've sold my first company and I'll most likely start another company soon, but what happens after that? Do i continue starting/selling companies for the rest of my life? Do I end up just becoming an angel investor/partner at a vc firm? Or do i just retire now and do all the fun/creative projects that I wanted to do as a kid? I guess I'm still searching…
I'm still searching because the toughest problem of my life wasn't to drop out or stay; that decision was easy. The toughest problem of my life is something I've been delaying solving and which I should of tried to solve sooner and which I may never solve.
The toughest problem of my life will be to learn and choose what makes me happy.
You have the toughest problem in life - which is choice.
You have an advantage - you have time (in money). Surround yourself with a diverse group of people from different age groups (people in their twentys, in their thirtys, in their fourtys) and use them as mentors and peers. it will be extremely useful. If you live in Silicon Valley, it should be pretty easy to find a diverse group of good people.
The advice someone should consider when trying to determine if they should go to college or start a company is this.... take advantage of opportunities!
Do you have an idea? Have you validated this idea in some form? Do you have access to funds? Do you have the skills necessary to execute the idea? If not, do you have access to people who can make up for your shortcomings? In other words, do you actually have an alternative opportunity to college.
Life is long for most of us, be optimistic and bet on it being long for you too. Don't be in a rush. While the college degree itself does not hold the value that it once did, the experience of college for those who truly take advantage of it will find it to be an amazing period of self growth. College has true value for some, even if society does not know how validate its value on an individual basis.
I went to college, I dropped out senior year, 8 years later I am working on my startup full time. My conditional blanket advice would be this, if you don't have a clear opportunity then go to school. It is that simple. If you spend half the time your friends' spend partying on your idea, you will have more than enough time to vet your dream as a true opportunity. After which you can justifiably quit college and start your company. Just because you start your undergrad does not mean you have to finish it.
Like I mentioned, I don't have my degree because I personally don't value a degree. But I highly value my college experience.
Do you have an idea? Have you validated this idea in some form? Do you have access to funds? Do you have the skills necessary to execute the idea? If not, do you have access to people who can make up for your shortcomings? In other words, do you actually have an alternative opportunity to college.
Life is long for most of us, be optimistic and bet on it being long for you too. Don't be in a rush. While the college degree itself does not hold the value that it once did, the experience of college for those who truly take advantage of it will find it to be an amazing period of self growth. College has true value for some, even if society does not know how validate its value on an individual basis.
I went to college, I dropped out senior year, 8 years later I am working on my startup full time. My conditional blanket advice would be this, if you don't have a clear opportunity then go to school. It is that simple. If you spend half the time your friends' spend partying on your idea, you will have more than enough time to vet your dream as a true opportunity. After which you can justifiably quit college and start your company. Just because you start your undergrad does not mean you have to finish it.
Like I mentioned, I don't have my degree because I personally don't value a degree. But I highly value my college experience.
Isn't it sad, that there is still no giant database filled with numbers to solve all arguments?
One column would be university. Another column would be course. Third column would be price. Fourth column would be field of working. Fifth column would be median salary (monthly earnings for entrepreneurs). Ideally that would be lifetime earnings instead, but it's really hard to do.
There probably should be a column for employment ratio or one extra entry per (university, course).
Then we can easily query such database to measure impact university has on financial success. And stop muttering. There still would be people who don't act rational, but at least we can mark it as such — irrational, instead of wrong. What I'm afraid of is that people will still act irrationally while thinking they are acting rationally (e.g. "of course they never succeeded, they were not as talented as me!")
I think someone would even pay to have access to such database, so there is probably a business opportunity here. Although, even more probably most university will disagree to disclose/outright falsify income numbers, because they are not interested to tell the truth.
One column would be university. Another column would be course. Third column would be price. Fourth column would be field of working. Fifth column would be median salary (monthly earnings for entrepreneurs). Ideally that would be lifetime earnings instead, but it's really hard to do.
There probably should be a column for employment ratio or one extra entry per (university, course).
Then we can easily query such database to measure impact university has on financial success. And stop muttering. There still would be people who don't act rational, but at least we can mark it as such — irrational, instead of wrong. What I'm afraid of is that people will still act irrationally while thinking they are acting rationally (e.g. "of course they never succeeded, they were not as talented as me!")
I think someone would even pay to have access to such database, so there is probably a business opportunity here. Although, even more probably most university will disagree to disclose/outright falsify income numbers, because they are not interested to tell the truth.
YES! This was exactly what I was looking for while writing the post. A decent portion of this information is even available publicly for certain demographic slices (like the education for the 30 Under 30s).
Startup idea? One that you could drop out of school for? wink wink
Startup idea? One that you could drop out of school for? wink wink
It's always presented as one or the other: Either do a startup or stay in college. Why not both?
I've managed to continue my undergrad education while co-founding an angel back startup. Although I didn't intentionally plan it, doing both at the same time as really helped me learn. What you learn in school can instantly be translated back to your startup, instead of waiting several years after school when you have forgotten much of it. It goes the other way too, lessons I've learned in my startup help me focus on what matters in school and "project manage" my course-load and homework.
It's not for everyone, and I am not saying that you have to start a company while in school. But at the very least, consider joining a startup while in school. Most startups are very flexible to where you work and what hours you work. It's usually a great fit while in school.
I've managed to continue my undergrad education while co-founding an angel back startup. Although I didn't intentionally plan it, doing both at the same time as really helped me learn. What you learn in school can instantly be translated back to your startup, instead of waiting several years after school when you have forgotten much of it. It goes the other way too, lessons I've learned in my startup help me focus on what matters in school and "project manage" my course-load and homework.
It's not for everyone, and I am not saying that you have to start a company while in school. But at the very least, consider joining a startup while in school. Most startups are very flexible to where you work and what hours you work. It's usually a great fit while in school.
Amen!
If we can bootstrap on 10 hours a week with a day job we can do same from college.
If we can bootstrap on 10 hours a week with a day job we can do same from college.
I planned on dropping out and found myself back at school - we had on path to profitability and California costs a lot more than Illinois. When my parents started getting collection letters from my university and we were running out of money (strange how $20,000 doesn't get you that far), I knew it was time to go back. Of course, my family couldn't afford to send me to school without loans, so ymmv.
I found that the time I spent in the trenches actually made me appreciate school MORE. When I got back, my desire to learn was back. I don't think I would have appreciated school as much if I hadn't just gotten out there.
I've decided to count my time in the valley as "studying abroad" ;)
I found that the time I spent in the trenches actually made me appreciate school MORE. When I got back, my desire to learn was back. I don't think I would have appreciated school as much if I hadn't just gotten out there.
I've decided to count my time in the valley as "studying abroad" ;)
Don't let somebody else tell you that your square peg needs to fit in that round hole over there.
I have a B.S. and a M.S. in computer science and I am 100% confident that it was the right choice /for me/. I also work at DISQUS with some of the smartest best systems engineers I have ever known, none of them took computer science, only some graduated college, and some never even finished high school. Education is a very personal thing and America's system works for most people, but when it feels wrong go find something else that feels right.
I have a B.S. and a M.S. in computer science and I am 100% confident that it was the right choice /for me/. I also work at DISQUS with some of the smartest best systems engineers I have ever known, none of them took computer science, only some graduated college, and some never even finished high school. Education is a very personal thing and America's system works for most people, but when it feels wrong go find something else that feels right.
I couldn't agree more. As a current student, dropping out doesn't appeal to me. I enjoy the structure presented by my classes and the college social life outside of classes. This has been the right choice for me, but for others it most certainly would not be.
Do what you feel is right. When it comes to a big choice like this I feel like subconsciously you just know what is right for you.
Do what you feel is right. When it comes to a big choice like this I feel like subconsciously you just know what is right for you.
That is a great counterpoint. School definitely isn't for everyone, and there are definitely flaws in the system (rising tuition, teaching the wrong things, etc but that is almost a whole other article).
Do your colleagues have any recommendations on gaining the proper skills and experience outside of college for those that want to try a different path?
Do your colleagues have any recommendations on gaining the proper skills and experience outside of college for those that want to try a different path?
Solid advice. If it doesn't work out and you quit your job to pursue the startup you might have a smaller bank account but you will have another solid item for your resume and it shouldn't be too hard to find a new job. If on the other hand it doesn't work out and you dropped out of college, you are in a much worse spot. Failed startup wont do much for getting back into school and now you still have to fund the schooling. You could get a job but it wont pay much without a college degree.
This doesn't necessarily hold true for technology.
In fact, the longer in the field the the more dated the education becomes. Our field is changing and knowledge is turning over so fast that a ten year old degree is borderline irrelevant vs someone who has experience in "today's technologies, methodologies, etc".
There are fundamentals which hold true from college, but a large majority of the technologies, techniques, etc are no longer relevant.
In fact, the longer in the field the the more dated the education becomes. Our field is changing and knowledge is turning over so fast that a ten year old degree is borderline irrelevant vs someone who has experience in "today's technologies, methodologies, etc".
There are fundamentals which hold true from college, but a large majority of the technologies, techniques, etc are no longer relevant.
I completely agree. The issue is that in order to get a decent paying job you either need a lot of experience or a college degree (most of the time you need both). From my experience its just the way it is.
If you drop out of college for a startup you will have some experience but not necessarily the kind employers are looking for or enough of it.
If you drop out of college for a startup you will have some experience but not necessarily the kind employers are looking for or enough of it.
This would be true if you got a degree in FORTRAN or Java 1.5 (and if you did, then that's a bummer!) instead of Computer Science. The vast majority of things I learned with a computer science degree are language-agnostic, and the only reason we used any language at all was because pseudocode is hard to compile.
Agreed. For me, it was a big shift at first transitioning from a more vocational mindset (learning the language/framework of the day) to the theoretical (design patterns, paradigms, architecture).
As an aside, just got through Martin Fowler's musing on architecture (http://martinfowler.com/eaaCatalog/). Highly recommended!
As an aside, just got through Martin Fowler's musing on architecture (http://martinfowler.com/eaaCatalog/). Highly recommended!
As a med student, never in my life have I had the slightest provocation to consider dropping out of school to pursue a startup. I know that I am extremely unfamiliar with the complexity of the choices involved, but having read this piece I'd be shocked if any prospective entrepreneurs were not strongly persuaded to take this man's advice. This is wisdom without the ostentatiousness of a NYT opinion.
There are different risk dynamics between someone that is studying medicine and someone studying computer science. The major one being that if you drop out while studying CS you could still likely get a job as developer if you are able to prove you are capable.
"college also teaches the life skills needed to succeed"
Whoa. Is this subtle irony? I can't believe anyone who isn't actually a college admissions person wrote this.
College can teach you some practical techniques, it can be broadening, and it can be a place to build relationships. But life skills? If that's what you want, you really would be better off dropping out.
Whoa. Is this subtle irony? I can't believe anyone who isn't actually a college admissions person wrote this.
College can teach you some practical techniques, it can be broadening, and it can be a place to build relationships. But life skills? If that's what you want, you really would be better off dropping out.
College gives you the opportunity to live in an apartment with real people and real bills while still under the protective umbrella of being a student. In the US, going to college means you have health care (you are paying for it, but you don't have a choice), you have access to fairly inexpensive food, and a lot of advisors who can help you and WANT to help you while you fuck up. That really does help in the transition from living with parents or in a dorm to having a place of your own.
I was a math major in college. I also spent 25+ hours per week on creative writing, although I took few classes in it and was mediocre in all the English courses I took. I'm very glad I got the mathematical background, and the creative writing experience (mostly frustration) made me a better software architect. It's harder to get that sort of out-of-band stuff once you're out of school.
Using Coursera and various textbooks to take some of the CS courses I missed in school, and doing this as an "adult student" (29) I've had a couple of insights...
* Autodidacticism (reading the texts and papers without a structured online course) is hard. How do you know if you're learning the right stuff, or how deep to go? Which exercises in your ML textbook do you do? (You won't have time to do all of them, unless you want to spend 2 years.) It is worth doing, but it's not easy. There's a reason why autodidacticism is rare and impressive.
* College wasn't that hard. It's a combination of (a) trying to do a zillion things at once, (b) having mediocre study skills on account of having not needed them before, (c) all the hormonal volatility, and (d) damaged long-term-planning facilities until age 25, that make it hard. After a few years of cubicle hell, college coursework is relatively easy for most people, if you have discipline (which very few 18-year-olds do; cube hell will help you get it). Of course, most people don't have time for more than 1-2 courses once they start working.
The problem with the "dropping out is awesome" mentality is that it's unclear what people are to be dropping into. I had that fantasy of dropping out to become a novelist-- who doesn't?-- but enough realism to know it wasn't a credible plan.
I think that most people (Zuck and Gates excluded) who drop out for a startup are actually running from something, and the thing they're running from isn't college, but the fact that 18-24 is a difficult age, especially in the neurotic U.S.
Using Coursera and various textbooks to take some of the CS courses I missed in school, and doing this as an "adult student" (29) I've had a couple of insights...
* Autodidacticism (reading the texts and papers without a structured online course) is hard. How do you know if you're learning the right stuff, or how deep to go? Which exercises in your ML textbook do you do? (You won't have time to do all of them, unless you want to spend 2 years.) It is worth doing, but it's not easy. There's a reason why autodidacticism is rare and impressive.
* College wasn't that hard. It's a combination of (a) trying to do a zillion things at once, (b) having mediocre study skills on account of having not needed them before, (c) all the hormonal volatility, and (d) damaged long-term-planning facilities until age 25, that make it hard. After a few years of cubicle hell, college coursework is relatively easy for most people, if you have discipline (which very few 18-year-olds do; cube hell will help you get it). Of course, most people don't have time for more than 1-2 courses once they start working.
The problem with the "dropping out is awesome" mentality is that it's unclear what people are to be dropping into. I had that fantasy of dropping out to become a novelist-- who doesn't?-- but enough realism to know it wasn't a credible plan.
I think that most people (Zuck and Gates excluded) who drop out for a startup are actually running from something, and the thing they're running from isn't college, but the fact that 18-24 is a difficult age, especially in the neurotic U.S.
Great insight about autodidacticism - sometimes it's just really hard to (1) even know what to do in the first place and (2) do it without structure or extrinsic motivation.
I think in an ideal world, self-study and maintaining an ongoing education while out in the field are great. Unfortunately in a practical world, finding that motivation intrinsically is pretty difficult. There's actually a great video by Dan Pink delving into the specific components of motivation: http://reelsurfer.com/watch/share/22832
(credit a forum post on improving at StarCraft for this actually, haha: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374...)
I think in an ideal world, self-study and maintaining an ongoing education while out in the field are great. Unfortunately in a practical world, finding that motivation intrinsically is pretty difficult. There's actually a great video by Dan Pink delving into the specific components of motivation: http://reelsurfer.com/watch/share/22832
(credit a forum post on improving at StarCraft for this actually, haha: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374...)
Don't drop out just to drop out. There's no statement to be made.
Sometimes dropping out makes sense; other times it doesn't. It's based on that unique situation. Dropping out isn't a matter you can over generalize with blanket statement advice.
Sometimes dropping out makes sense; other times it doesn't. It's based on that unique situation. Dropping out isn't a matter you can over generalize with blanket statement advice.
I don't see the harm in dropping out.
If your startup is gaining traction, take a semester off and try and make it work. You can always go back to school if the business doesn't work out.
If your startup is gaining traction, take a semester off and try and make it work. You can always go back to school if the business doesn't work out.
Until you find a substantial group of talented students whom you randomize to college vs non-college, the question of whether or not to complete college will remain open.
I wish I'd done a startup before going to college. I would've had a better sense of what to focus on.
if you drop out to start a startup just be sure its really what you want as you will most probably fail!
"If we use wealth as a measure of success, Forbes’ January 2012 edition reveals that about 85% of America’s 400 Richest People (shown left) do, in fact, have a college degree."
So there is a correlation between extreme wealth and college education. What does that show? Do you account for the fact that rich families have a much easier time sending their kids to college? If you flip it and say "15% of America's 400 richest people don't even have a college degree" that sounds impressive as well. What did you expect? What does that have to do with startups?
I abhor these empty advice posts based on a single data point. I wouldn't give out generic advice about whether to stay in school or not, that's a personal decision that completely depends on the circumstances.