Hulu requests removal from Boxee(centernetworks.com)
centernetworks.com
Hulu requests removal from Boxee
http://www.centernetworks.com/hulu-boxee-removal
48 comments
Further, here is a comparison of CPM rates and revenue for a typical TV episode.
Network TV: $20-40cpm per ad - 15-19 ads shown in 30 minutes
Cable: $1-15 cpm per ad - 10-22 ads shown (plus subscription revenue)
iTunes: $0.80 per viewer, so CPM of $80 total (est network share)
Hulu / Online: CPM $10-40. 1-4 ads per show.
If you do the math, its obvious that network broadcasts really rake it in. A 30 second spot on a prime time network show sells for anywhere from $400,000 to $800,000 per spot (for 15-30M viewers).
If everyone started watching Hulu instead, they would lose 80-90% of revenue. If everybody downloaded on iTunes (assuming 3 viewers per download, or more is likely) they would still lose out but not as much.
The problem is if the networks start offering a la carte shows for $2 a pop, they lose the bundling revenue (ie. channels you receive in a bundle but would never pay for on their own).
Network TV: $20-40cpm per ad - 15-19 ads shown in 30 minutes
Cable: $1-15 cpm per ad - 10-22 ads shown (plus subscription revenue)
iTunes: $0.80 per viewer, so CPM of $80 total (est network share)
Hulu / Online: CPM $10-40. 1-4 ads per show.
If you do the math, its obvious that network broadcasts really rake it in. A 30 second spot on a prime time network show sells for anywhere from $400,000 to $800,000 per spot (for 15-30M viewers).
If everyone started watching Hulu instead, they would lose 80-90% of revenue. If everybody downloaded on iTunes (assuming 3 viewers per download, or more is likely) they would still lose out but not as much.
The problem is if the networks start offering a la carte shows for $2 a pop, they lose the bundling revenue (ie. channels you receive in a bundle but would never pay for on their own).
First, thank you for providing actual numbers.... but...
Supply and demand. If everyone started watching on Hulu they would be able to charge more per advertisement. These are rates given the current situation, not the future. Why do I say this? I watch Hulu. I do not watch TV otherwise. If the advertisers (and networks) want my eyeballs they need to provide content via Hulu.
Supply and demand. If everyone started watching on Hulu they would be able to charge more per advertisement. These are rates given the current situation, not the future. Why do I say this? I watch Hulu. I do not watch TV otherwise. If the advertisers (and networks) want my eyeballs they need to provide content via Hulu.
Those numbers or per thousand so it doesn't really matter I would think. Personally I would think that the Hulu ads are more valuable than the TV ones because it is 1 advertiser per show and there is less signal to noise for the viewer. When I watch football on Sunday it is sponsored by Ford, Toyota, Miller, Budweiser, Verizon, and 10 other companies I will never remember or care about. When I watch the Daily Show on Hulu it is 1 company a few times and actually leaves an impression.
Seems like the solution would be to embrace Boxee and then raise your advertising rates because you've now got TV audience eyeballs watching Hulu content instead of Firefox-window eyeballs.
I guess it's at that moment that you notice the whisps of steam rise from the snout and the lazily opening eye, and realize that Comcast over in the corner was never asleep at all, but saw the whole thing.
... oops somehow I failed to notice a 4 hour old reply saying the same thing. Apologies.
I guess it's at that moment that you notice the whisps of steam rise from the snout and the lazily opening eye, and realize that Comcast over in the corner was never asleep at all, but saw the whole thing.
... oops somehow I failed to notice a 4 hour old reply saying the same thing. Apologies.
It really is a shame for NBCU, and company, to ask Hulu to cut Boxee off. If I recall correctly, didn't content from Hulu that was piped into Boxee still have ads?
Hopefully someday they'll realize that when they cut off people from having legal access to their content, people will go back to their illegal methods. When will old media learn?
Hopefully someday they'll realize that when they cut off people from having legal access to their content, people will go back to their illegal methods. When will old media learn?
If they would just think of the content as syndication ala RSS, or YouTube embedding, they'd recognize that we Boxee users see the same pre-/post-/middle-roll ads that appear on Hulu.com actual.
This is especially frustrating for me because I set up my HTPC with Boxee expressly to have an easy-to-navigate interface for Hulu via my remote control.
This is especially frustrating for me because I set up my HTPC with Boxee expressly to have an easy-to-navigate interface for Hulu via my remote control.
The old-media guys who made this decision almost certainly don't have a clue what RSS is. I share your viewpoint, but there are (still) many dinosaurs running this industry.
It isn't quite that simple; I work for an "old media" company, and for us, Boxee jumped the gun by ingesting content prior to having the requisite agreement. Since they did not consult our developers, our ads were not implemented correctly, and we weren't getting paid (even though Boxee's users may have been seeing the ads).
Have your employers considered how many ads the Bittorrent users are paying for?
Boxee is taking off. Its users are voluntarily watching your ads. And, instead of trying to work with that and ride the wave, your tired media company is emasculating it. Sounds like the kind of brilliant logic that led the music publishers to destroy Napster, only stupider.
Boxee is taking off. Its users are voluntarily watching your ads. And, instead of trying to work with that and ride the wave, your tired media company is emasculating it. Sounds like the kind of brilliant logic that led the music publishers to destroy Napster, only stupider.
Then work with them to forge the deal, instead of yanking your content and causing a frenzy which isn't in your favor. Maybe explain why the ads were not generating revenue, for starters. Just having it yanked begets bad blood.
There's a lot of early adopters and people using boxee+hulu, and pulling it means people will simply tune you out.
There's a lot of early adopters and people using boxee+hulu, and pulling it means people will simply tune you out.
How is what Boxee was doing any different from the EMBED tag that Hulu gives out?
Progess is slow, and it's hard to get people to change, etc, but Boxee seems extraordinarily dedicated to getting real partners onto its service, and serving as much legal content as they can. I do think that they might be overstepping or at least stepping out of being "professional" by just integrating things like Hulu content, basically "rogue," but it's what they have to do to get a userbase and to get the buzz that they have.
But now, they're here, and they want to play. There is a service and a userbase who are all clearly invested in supporting your legal content, sitting here staring content providers in the face. Surely entertainment hubris or ego will get in the way of things actually going smoothly in a situation like this, but its one of those times where I wish everyone would just shut up, play ball, and make money.
But now, they're here, and they want to play. There is a service and a userbase who are all clearly invested in supporting your legal content, sitting here staring content providers in the face. Surely entertainment hubris or ego will get in the way of things actually going smoothly in a situation like this, but its one of those times where I wish everyone would just shut up, play ball, and make money.
Isn't this something you(or they) could fix on your end?
Hulu probably signed an agreement with say Tivo or Microsoft(360), nintendo, sony, heck even samsung. To do the same thing but have people pay for it and get some royalties. This product only
Hulu wasn't making any money with this. Boxee was full of people who would use Hulu without boxee and see the ads but the Hulu brand and ads wouldn't be connected as clearly as they would be online.
In a recession things like that can fly but when your trying to make money you gotta work for it.
Hulu wasn't making any money with this. Boxee was full of people who would use Hulu without boxee and see the ads but the Hulu brand and ads wouldn't be connected as clearly as they would be online.
In a recession things like that can fly but when your trying to make money you gotta work for it.
"Since they did not consult our developers, our ads were not implemented correctly, and we weren't getting paid (even though Boxee's users may have been seeing the ads)."
Honest question: don't you normally pay for ads, rather than getting paid for them? I must be missing something here.
Honest question: don't you normally pay for ads, rather than getting paid for them? I must be missing something here.
Hopefully someday they'll realize that when they cut off people from having legal access to their content, people will go back to their illegal methods. When will old media learn?
How is bit-torrenting TV episodes illegal?
They are broadcast into my house for free, so why would it matter if I record them, or if Some Guy On The Internet records them for me? (I never watch TV un-timeshifted, so I don't see ads either way.)
How is bit-torrenting TV episodes illegal?
They are broadcast into my house for free, so why would it matter if I record them, or if Some Guy On The Internet records them for me? (I never watch TV un-timeshifted, so I don't see ads either way.)
I'll assume this was a serious question. While recording a show yourself and downloading it both produce the same outcome, copyright law cares about the path that bits take. Even if the TV networks are distributing something for free, it isn't legal for you to redistribute it for free without their permission.
An interesting post I read about this a while back:
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/2004061001.php
Your problem is that you are being rational, and copyright law is anything but. I don't think there has been a definitive ruling on the matter but I think torrenting is illegal because you never own the show, you have a license to view it in one way and viewing it in another violates that license. For example, if I get the show in HD on my package and you don't, me giving you a copy means you have an experience that you would not otherwise have and therefore are violating the copyright.
Hulu.com does have fewer ads than broadcast TV (altho a DVR can circumvent ads on the latter). If NBC makes less per view on Hulu than it does on TV, this request makes some sense.
No it doesn't, because whether you watch Hulu using Firefox or Boxee the same ads should be shown.
I know. But when you bring up the same show on TV using over-the-air/satellite/cable you see more ads.
Then should they prevent me from buying a Mac Mini/Apple TV, hooking it up to my TV, opening up a web browser with Hulu and watching something in full screen?
Then why don't they shut Hulu down?
1. Hulu is where they're testing the waters of Internet distribution; it's still a limited experiment.
2. They're hoping Hulu -because of its requirement of a computer- won't cannibalize their broadcast TV shows. In terms of their bottom line, Hulu > pirated shows on the Internet, but Hulu < TV.
Edit: nikblack explains it more eloquently in this comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=486620
2. They're hoping Hulu -because of its requirement of a computer- won't cannibalize their broadcast TV shows. In terms of their bottom line, Hulu > pirated shows on the Internet, but Hulu < TV.
Edit: nikblack explains it more eloquently in this comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=486620
In a way, this is actually a good sign. It shows the content providers are scared. You are not doing things right if you are not shaking things up and scaring people. That is what disruptive technology is about.
Many startups face similar challenges and this reminds me of the struggles ones such as GlassesDirect.co.uk had to go through before becoming successful (they could have been crushed many times by Goliaths but fought through) - it had to close several times when major competitors and retailers tried to sabotage its business by forcing manufacturers/suppliers to drop GlassesDirect (else they would withdraw their vastly larger orders) and running smear campaigns in the press with false allegations about why using the service was illegal and substandard.
In this case, yes, content providers have a right to choose where/how their content is shown, but this is probably more to do with not getting licensing fees from Boxee than anything else. However, if they do not adopt/embrace legal methods such as Boxee (and insert extra adverts etc. to make the revenue they want), then they only encourage illegal methods.
---
Concerted efforts to sabotage the new venture have proved fruitless. In September, his main supplier mysteriously dropped him. “They suddenly said they couldn’t do business with me. I reckon they had pressure put on them by a high-street chain. It took me a week to find a new supplier and re-do the website.” The trade press confirmed his paranoia when letters and articles appeared questioning the firm’s credentials and the General Optical Council launched an investigation. “Groundless attacks. I have fully qualified opticians working in labs, making the glasses. [http://www.realbusiness.co.uk/archive/4775601/feature-glasse...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Murray_Wells
Many startups face similar challenges and this reminds me of the struggles ones such as GlassesDirect.co.uk had to go through before becoming successful (they could have been crushed many times by Goliaths but fought through) - it had to close several times when major competitors and retailers tried to sabotage its business by forcing manufacturers/suppliers to drop GlassesDirect (else they would withdraw their vastly larger orders) and running smear campaigns in the press with false allegations about why using the service was illegal and substandard.
In this case, yes, content providers have a right to choose where/how their content is shown, but this is probably more to do with not getting licensing fees from Boxee than anything else. However, if they do not adopt/embrace legal methods such as Boxee (and insert extra adverts etc. to make the revenue they want), then they only encourage illegal methods.
---
Concerted efforts to sabotage the new venture have proved fruitless. In September, his main supplier mysteriously dropped him. “They suddenly said they couldn’t do business with me. I reckon they had pressure put on them by a high-street chain. It took me a week to find a new supplier and re-do the website.” The trade press confirmed his paranoia when letters and articles appeared questioning the firm’s credentials and the General Optical Council launched an investigation. “Groundless attacks. I have fully qualified opticians working in labs, making the glasses. [http://www.realbusiness.co.uk/archive/4775601/feature-glasse...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Murray_Wells
When I read articles like this, it just makes me sad for Hulu.
What an unpleasant predicament it must be to be in bed with such idiotic partners who just Do It Wrong so much of the time.
What an unpleasant predicament it must be to be in bed with such idiotic partners who just Do It Wrong so much of the time.
It's funny, I ordered an Apple TV to install Boxee on for the bedroom TV today. Hulu was going to be one of the major sources of content for Boxee, however now it sounds like it'll simply be tvtorrents + rss + rtorrent. It's just as easy for me, but it means zero ads. Seems like NBC is the one losing out by this move.
Dumb, question but what is boxee? Why would I use it? I honestly couldn't figure it out from their website nor the wikipedia article about boxee.
It's a media center software (based on XMBC) with a focus on online content with videos from Hulu, Netflix, Comedy Central, YouTube, torrents, etc.; pictures from PicasaWeb and Flickr, music from last.fm, NPR, etc.
Why should you use it? It's a great step towards combining online content with a TV. It has a lot of pieces that are missing from AppleTV. (even though it's possible to install Boxee on AppleTV :))
Why should you use it? It's a great step towards combining online content with a TV. It has a lot of pieces that are missing from AppleTV. (even though it's possible to install Boxee on AppleTV :))
Just download it and try it. You'll see why it rocks so much. I agree, the site doesn't do the product justice.
I really like the way that Boxee and Hulu are handling this. At least they are being honest with their motivations and not trying to strong-arm users with legal mumbo-jumbo.
That said, this is very unfortunate news. Just this week, I was contemplating replacing my cable with boxee/internet streams. Oh well.
That said, this is very unfortunate news. Just this week, I was contemplating replacing my cable with boxee/internet streams. Oh well.
Now I'm not so sure it's worth paying $30 for PlayOn; I'd hate to see it crippled at some point in the future.
This is devastating news. WTF? For what reason? The ads are there. What is wrong with these people. So much for innovation.
damn I was loving boxee and if people request out, then you will loose the all in one media experience
You can fullscreen Hulu onto your TV with a PlayStation 3.
How do you do that?
1. Open Internet Browser
2. Hit Triangle and Search for [hulu]
3. Go to Hulu.com (should be the first hit)
4. Click on the video you want.
5. When the page loads, hit Triangle then click on View. Then select the "maxiumum size" option.
6. Then Click on Full Screen view in the options on the Hulu page.
This should work, but I get letterboxing on the left and right sides of my HDTV. I assume this is my TV, but who knows.
[Edit: it appears that Step 5 is unnecessary.]
This should work, but I get letterboxing on the left and right sides of my HDTV. I assume this is my TV, but who knows.
[Edit: it appears that Step 5 is unnecessary.]
You can fullscreen Hulu onto your TV with a laptop. It's like a $5 cable.
yeah or get a mac mini and put in your tv cabinet and connect it to your LCD TV. Use a wireless mouse as a remote. You can watch Hulu, YouTube, theWB, joost, cbsnews.com/video, tv.com, wbkids.com and others this way.
Amazing isn't it. 2009 and we're finally able to watch television on a TV.
Personally, I'm still working on a way to stream internet radio out over my iPod car adapter so that I can listen to it on the radio.
Personally, I'm still working on a way to stream internet radio out over my iPod car adapter so that I can listen to it on the radio.
Again, life imitates The Onion: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39109
AppleTV + Boxee was the reason I cut out cable all together.
While the advertising was kept in place, it still doesn't attract the rates that normal television does. Given a choice, content holders definitely prefer viewers to tune into ordinary broadcast television to watch their shows - online content is about capturing the potion of viewers who miss shows and don't watch broadcast television.
With Boxee, there is the potential that the online content will cut into the broadcast TV audience - hence this decision.
What is interesting is that the true motives are now more obvious. Online content, in the form of both iTunes and Hulu, is fine as long as it doesn't cut too close to the broadcast base.
Content holders have gone from vigorously defending their network broadcasts to now accepting online content, but only to a point. The next battle will take place when more intelligent PC-like DVR's come out on the market (like the PS3, but at a $100-150 price point) allowing viewers to easily stream online content to a television with a remote. The content owners have a short time window between now and then where they have the best of both worlds - both broadcast and online, but once it all goes online the very lucrative and protected broadcast market will be threatened.
With online, there is no more having to acquire broadcast licenses, no more large-scale infrastructure networks to reach your potential audience and no longer limited competition and cable monopolies with packaged channel selection.